How to improve the WR position

Cellar-Door

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When Brady bolts, Tampa will probably look to rebuild and trade or cut Evans.
yeah I didn't put him on the list because I think the odds of a trade a considerably higher than a cut for him. My list was basically:
Category 1: These guys are getting cut
Category 2: These guys will get shopped but close to 50/50 they get cut.

I see Evans as a guy who someone will trade something for.
 

BaseballJones

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Ok so Hopkins...

1. In his prime, obviously an elite receiver. Four seasons with 100+ receptions. Three seasons with 111+ receptions. Four seasons with 1,300+ yards. Three seasons with 11+ TD receptions.

2. Not in his prime anymore. Last two seasons combined: 106 receptions, 1,289 yards, 11 TD.

3. BUT...that's mainly due to injury issues, not quality of play. But that's good news and bad news, right? The good news is that he's still really good. The bad news is that 2023 will be his age 31 season, so it's silly to expect that his injury issues will go away.

4. His rate stats are still good. Last two seasons: 66.3% catch rate, 12.2 yds/rec, 8.1 yds/tgt

5. BUT...are those numbers any better than Jakobi Meyers'? Not really. Jacob last two seasons: 67.6% catch rate, 11.1 yds/rec, 7.5 yds/tgt. And Meyers is four years younger.

6. Interestingly, Hopkins isn't that fast: 4.57 40 time. Meyers: 4.63. So yes a little faster than Meyers, but not much faster. Hopkins, as it turns out, is essentially a really, really good possession receiver. There's legit value in that - a guy who you KNOW can make the tough catch, who is uber reliable, who can run every route, whether outside or inside. He's just a good wide receiver. Really freaking good. BUT....he doesn't really blow you away, which is kind of crazy. I always thought he was much faster than he is. And at his age, he's even less fast than he used to be.

Would I want him on the Pats? I mean, yeah. Depending on how much of the cap he takes up, and how much the Pats need to trade away to get him. But there's definitely a price that's way too high for him.

Still, what would be crazy would be trading a second for Hopkins and a third for Cooks. That makes your WR corps Hopkins, Cooks, Thornton, Parker, and Bourne. That would be pretty awesome right there. PLENTY of weapons for Mac to work with. Obviously that won't happen and in fact, it's quite likely that the Pats wouldn't land either Hopkins OR Cooks, never mind both. But if they could get Hopkins, he'd help for sure.
 

Rudy's Curve

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Still, what would be crazy would be trading a second for Hopkins and a third for Cooks. That makes your WR corps Hopkins, Cooks, Thornton, Parker, and Bourne. That would be pretty awesome right there. PLENTY of weapons for Mac to work with. Obviously that won't happen and in fact, it's quite likely that the Pats wouldn't land either Hopkins OR Cooks, never mind both. But if they could get Hopkins, he'd help for sure.
I know you said it won't happen and I obviously don't know exactly how the Pats operate, but unless BB doesn't give a shit how the organization looks a few years down the line I can't see how he'd part with two Day 2 picks. I guess they gave up a 2/4/7 for Welker and Moss, but it was Welker and Moss and they were adding them to an already great team.
 

Seels

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Look at all of the best receivers ever, how many of them would you trade a 2nd for their post 30, post injury production? Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and TO, and that's about it (and Rice obviously).

I would not trade a 2nd for him. I'd think anything the Pats may offer for him a different team that is WR needy, like the Ravens, would just trump.
 

SMU_Sox

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Flowers came in at 5 feet 9.25 inches tall, 182 pounds and 29.25 inch arms. Arm-length, height, and weight aren’t ideal but a lot of places had him listed at 170 so 182 is a nice weigh-in surprise. Personally I think his size isn’t going to be an issue and his height and weight are a fine combination.
 

BigSoxFan

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Look at all of the best receivers ever, how many of them would you trade a 2nd for their post 30, post injury production? Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and TO, and that's about it (and Rice obviously).

I would not trade a 2nd for him. I'd think anything the Pats may offer for him a different team that is WR needy, like the Ravens, would just trump.
I think the list is a little bigger than you give it credit for. Look at the 31-33 production of these guys:

Larry Fitzgerald (heh)
Cris Carter
Tim Brown
Steve Smith
Andre Johnson
Antonio Brown (if he wasn’t a complete jackass)
Hines Ward
Derrick Mason

Hopkins could possibly age like them, especially in an era that favors passing more than when they played. He’s clearly still a very good player and should remain so for the next few years, if health persists and he takes care of himself. I’d have no issue giving a 2nd for Hopkins and committing to him for about 3 years as long as his contract demands aren’t ridiculous. The odds of that 2nd round pick being more productive than Hopkins is quite low.
 

SMU_Sox

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That was wonderfully subtle
Sorry to be Big Ben but I don’t get it. Is it a joke about how the Patriots 2nd round or day 2 receivers (SSS alert) have not worked out much?

I think they need to keep swinging at WR. Given their needs though unless they solve OT, CB, and FS in free agency it seems like WR shouldn’t be that high of a priority.

Personally I think they should be looking at 3 names: Josh Downs, Zay Flowers, and Addison. None of them are pick 14 material. But all of them give them both speed and twitch from the slot and good to great RAC. We need that kind of receiver as the straw that stirs this drink.
 

Zincman

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At 14 you're likely looking at higher quality corners, edges, defensive tackles, maybe OTs on the board. Feels like 2019 where there are guys who you want at the end of the first or in the 2nd and third round. I think there is a glaring need for two offensive tackles, a starting slot corner if they don't like Marcus Jones there, and a number 1 shut down outside corner with size. They might also want an elite IDL or edge. You can find those guys at 14. You aren't going to find them later on (probably). Let's see what they do in FA. I also don't know how I feel about most of the WRs or any other position but OL so far minus the top 4-5 tight ends.

Quick edit: you can probably find a starting slot corner later on. But a true number 1 type not so much. Not usually.
Hitchhiking on this brings up a number of possibilities
I share the need for two tackles but would you spend #14 on Skoronski, Johnson or Jones. I probably wouldn't because you may not be getting an elite talent and there are some later round candidates
A WR1 would also be nice but would you spend #14 on Johnston or Addison. I probably wouldn't, especially with 2nd and 3rd rounds talent as possible fits for NEP
A true shutdown corner is a need but would you spend #14 on one of Porter, Gonzalez, Witherspoon, Cam Smith, Ringo or Phillips. I would have to be sure that one of them is elite and the jury is still out on that. But this one is a clear possibility.
Top quality edges are in this draft so would you spend #14 on Anderson, Murphy or Wilson. I might even without a glaring need because elite edge rushers are rare. There are some very interesting late 1st and later edges
Would I spend #14 on Carter or Bresee. Tough call for me but a hard pass. Probably no matter since its unlikely either makes it to #14
Would I spend #14 on an elite safety such as Branch. Probably not with other more pressing needs.
If somehow, Stroud, Levis, Young or Richardson fall would you take one at #14. Probably not, but I have a feeling we could regret not taking Richardson if he were available.
Would I trade back looking to pick up additional middle round choices. With so little elite talent in this draft this might be a good time for this tactic.
Would I trade out looking to acquire as much 2024 assets as possible, especially if it turns out we will make a run at Williams or Maye. Least popular among the faithful but I kinda like the idea.
I will now retreat to my lair to run my 2,885th mock draft simulation. Do you think I need help?
 

Saints Rest

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Hitchhiking on this brings up a number of possibilities
I share the need for two tackles but would you spend #14 on Skoronski, Johnson or Jones. I probably wouldn't because you may not be getting an elite talent and there are some later round candidates
A WR1 would also be nice but would you spend #14 on Johnston or Addison. I probably wouldn't, especially with 2nd and 3rd rounds talent as possible fits for NEP
A true shutdown corner is a need but would you spend #14 on one of Porter, Gonzalez, Witherspoon, Cam Smith, Ringo or Phillips. I would have to be sure that one of them is elite and the jury is still out on that. But this one is a clear possibility.
Top quality edges are in this draft so would you spend #14 on Anderson, Murphy or Wilson. I might even without a glaring need because elite edge rushers are rare. There are some very interesting late 1st and later edges
Would I spend #14 on Carter or Bresee. Tough call for me but a hard pass. Probably no matter since its unlikely either makes it to #14
Would I spend #14 on an elite safety such as Branch. Probably not with other more pressing needs.
If somehow, Stroud, Levis, Young or Richardson fall would you take one at #14. Probably not, but I have a feeling we could regret not taking Richardson if he were available.
Would I trade back looking to pick up additional middle round choices. With so little elite talent in this draft this might be a good time for this tactic.
Would I trade out looking to acquire as much 2024 assets as possible, especially if it turns out we will make a run at Williams or Maye. Least popular among the faithful but I kinda like the idea.
I will now retreat to my lair to run my 2,885th mock draft simulation. Do you think I need help?
In my crappy opinion, I think the key for #14 is hitting a solid extra-base hit. Not necessarily a home run but more than a safe single.

That said, I think that OT is the position that combines need (immense) with likelihood of finding a good solid one at 14.

If the stud OT's are all gone by 14, I think I might look at either DT, ILB, or FS. Now I have no idea if there are good values at those positions, but I think any of them could likely be a solid extra-base hit at positions that could use help.

I feel like one has a high likelihood of getting a really good CB at that spot, but A) I'm not sure if the need is there if the Pats can re-sign Jon Jones and bring Jack Jones back into the fold; and B) the Pats have had great success historically finding excellent value at CB in later rounds, even at UDFA.
 

BigSoxFan

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Sorry to be Big Ben but I don’t get it. Is it a joke about how the Patriots 2nd round or day 2 receivers (SSS alert) have not worked out much?

I think they need to keep swinging at WR. Given their needs though unless they solve OT, CB, and FS in free agency it seems like WR shouldn’t be that high of a priority.

Personally I think they should be looking at 3 names: Josh Downs, Zay Flowers, and Addison. None of them are pick 14 material. But all of them give them both speed and twitch from the slot and good to great RAC. We need that kind of receiver as the straw that stirs this drink.
Wasn’t a joke, actually. The odds are DeAndre Hopkins will outproduce whoever they use a 2nd pick on, no matter the position. Obviously, the salary cap considerations will be much more but I’d have no issues committing to his age 31-33 or so seasons because of the list I posted.
 

SMU_Sox

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Hitchhiking on this brings up a number of possibilities
I share the need for two tackles but would you spend #14 on Skoronski, Johnson or Jones. I probably wouldn't because you may not be getting an elite talent and there are some later round candidates
No on Jones and Skoronski, and a strong maybe to yes on Johnson. He is a classic 7.75 so he does have pro bowl traits to me. But... I think I would rather trade back, as you suggested, spoiler alert I agree with you about trading down or to 2024, and taking Darnell Wright later on. When you see Evan Lazar and Phil Perry and Taylor Kyles and all the usual Pats guys gush about him remember you read about him on SOSH first ;).
A WR1 would also be nice but would you spend #14 on Johnston or Addison. I probably wouldn't, especially with 2nd and 3rd rounds talent as possible fits for NEP
Completely agree. Trade down before taking them at 14. And TBH I am not sure I love QJ.

A true shutdown corner is a need but would you spend #14 on one of Porter, Gonzalez, Witherspoon, Cam Smith, Ringo or Phillips. I would have to be sure that one of them is elite and the jury is still out on that. But this one is a clear possibility.
I actually might take one of these guys, yes. I think they showed this year they needed better outside corners. I am not a huge fan of Ringo. He's imo more of a cover 3 only guy. But to be fair I haven't gotten to corners.

Top quality edges are in this draft so would you spend #14 on Anderson, Murphy or Wilson. I might even without a glaring need because elite edge rushers are rare. There are some very interesting late 1st and later edges
Oh I would consider it! Anderson and Murphy and maybe even Wilson are going top 10 though. But if one of them slid? Oh absolutely I would consider it. I love Murphy and have since like 2021.

Would I spend #14 on Carter or Bresee. Tough call for me but a hard pass. Probably no matter since its unlikely either makes it to #14
Carter is going top 4. Bresee though maybe but like you said he's not making it to 14. I think elite DTs are actually an inefficiency right now. If you can get pass rush up the middle consistently you really blow up another team's passing attack.

Would I spend #14 on an elite safety such as Branch. Probably not with other more pressing needs.
No I wouldn't but I really like his fit on the Patriots as an elite slot corner/safety. Just like you said not at 14.

If somehow, Stroud, Levis, Young or Richardson fall would you take one at #14. Probably not, but I have a feeling we could regret not taking Richardson if he were available.
Ugh, I have an irrational and rational love for Richardson and I saw a couple of Levis 2021 games where I am coming around on him. It would be hard for me to pass on a QB with their talents. Is that smart for team building. /sigh probably not.

Would I trade back looking to pick up additional middle round choices. With so little elite talent in this draft this might be a good time for this tactic.
Would I trade out looking to acquire as much 2024 assets as possible, especially if it turns out we will make a run at Williams or Maye. Least popular among the faithful but I kinda like the idea.
I will now retreat to my lair to run my 2,885th mock draft simulation. Do you think I need help?
I think this is the best option. Trade down, get more top 75 picks and/or 2024 picks and take more bites at the apple. I like this option the best. Granted though if a true 8+ or blue-chip kind of talent is at 14 I would consider taking them as I think this team needs some high end talent. Likely though that won't be the case and they should trade down.
 

j44thor

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The problem with trading down is it takes 2 to tango and I'm not sure there will be someone at 14 another team really covets, maybe if a QB slips or possibly Paris Johnson or an edge but outside of them I think 12-24 is going to get you a similar tier of player and other teams know that as well.
 

Zincman

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The problem with trading down is it takes 2 to tango and I'm not sure there will be someone at 14 another team really covets, maybe if a QB slips or possibly Paris Johnson or an edge but outside of them I think 12-24 is going to get you a similar tier of player and other teams know that as well.
You make an excellent point but somebody is likely to slip and there will be dancers at 14. 1 through 13 would have to go completely to form and that seems unlikely.
 

Zincman

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Ugh, I have an irrational and rational love for Richardson and I saw a couple of Levis 2021 games where I am coming around on him. It would be hard for me to pass on a QB with their talents. Is that smart for team building. /sigh probably not.

You are absolutely right that it is probably not great team building but neither is pinning your future on a QB whose ceiling might be mediocrity. If Richardson or Levis were available at 14 and you judge them to be a superior alternative to Mac, then I would be willing to pull the trigger. In any case, I bet the Pats draft a QB at some point in this draft as is their history. Do you like either Hooker or McKee?
 

Zincman

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You are absolutely right that it is probably not great team building but neither is pinning your future on a QB whose ceiling might be mediocrity. If Richardson or Levis were available at 14 and you judge them to be a superior alternative to Mac, then I would be willing to pull the trigger. In any case, I bet the Pats draft a QB at some point in this draft as is their history. Do you like either Hooker or McKee?
 

Cellar-Door

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Wasn’t a joke, actually. The odds are DeAndre Hopkins will outproduce whoever they use a 2nd pick on, no matter the position. Obviously, the salary cap considerations will be much more but I’d have no issues committing to his age 31-33 or so seasons because of the list I posted.
Maybe, but honestly I wouldn't be at all surprised to see 4 years of our 2nd, and whatever we spend $35M over 2 years on being more valuable than the next two years of Hopkins.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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3. BUT...that's mainly due to injury issues, not quality of play. But that's good news and bad news, right? The good news is that he's still really good. The bad news is that 2023 will be his age 31 season, so it's silly to expect that his injury issues will go away.
The first 6 games of the season were missed due to PEDs, not injuries. Hopkins had 4 total games with Murray this season. The rest of his games came with Colt McCoy and some guys named Trace McSorley and David Blough throwing to him.

With Murray, he averaged 8.5 receptions for 97 yards a game and 3 TDs in those 4 games.

I'm fine paying a premium for his age 31 and 32 season. I'm sure he's got plenty of juice left for 2 more seasons
 

SMU_Sox

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The first 6 games of the season were missed due to PEDs, not injuries. Hopkins had 4 total games with Murray this season. The rest of his games came with Colt McCoy and some guys named Trace McSorley and David Blough throwing to him.

With Murray, he averaged 8.5 receptions for 97 yards a game and 3 TDs in those 4 games.

I'm fine paying a premium for his age 31 and 32 season. I'm sure he's got plenty of juice left for 2 more seasons
Yeah I think he’s a good asset but if they do snag him it makes Parker somewhat redundant. You could try and move him for something though.

I’d like Hopkins on this team. Would upgrade the WR core. Still need that twitched up slot imo. It would probably take a 2 to get him. You want to do that? I think I want to see free agency a bit before I have an idea if I want them to do that.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Yeah I think he’s a good asset but if they do snag him it makes Parker somewhat redundant. You could try and move him for something though.

I’d like Hopkins on this team. Would upgrade the WR core. Still need that twitched up slot imo. It would probably take a 2 to get him. You want to do that? I think I want to see free agency a bit before I have an idea if I want them to do that.
I think with how empty our WR room is, there's plenty of space at the table for both Hopkins and Parker. They may be redundant with stretching the field, but Hopkins' route running is elite, he's still elite physically, and he's one of the few guys that can create separation in a phone booth. Having Hopkins on one side and Parker on the other also creates unique deep route options that should provide more open looks that Captain Noodle Arm will need.

I mean, if they need the cap - his hit is $30m - then sure. Later Parker. But I have a feeling the Patriots could restructure Hopkins contract, push some into bonuses and also get the Cardinals to take some of the hit in the process. If they still think Parker as a secondary option/Agholor replacement is too pricey at $6M, then cut him.

I don't care about waiting until free agency. There's nothing there that would change my view on bringing in Hopkins.

Edit: and yes, I'd do a 2nd. Absolutely. With the caveat that the Cards be part of the contract restructure and take on cap hit.
 

Shelterdog

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I think with how empty our WR room is, there's plenty of space at the table for both Hopkins and Parker. They may be redundant with stretching the field, but Hopkins' route running is elite, he's still elite physically, and he's one of the few guys that can create separation in a phone booth. Having Hopkins on one side and Parker on the other also creates unique deep route options that should provide more open looks that Captain Noodle Arm will need.

I mean, if they need the cap - his hit is $30m - then sure. Later Parker. But I have a feeling the Patriots could restructure Hopkins contract, push some into bonuses and also get the Cardinals to take some of the hit in the process. If they still think Parker as a secondary option/Agholor replacement is too pricey at $6M, then cut him.

I don't care about waiting until free agency. There's nothing there that would change my view on bringing in Hopkins.

Edit: and yes, I'd do a 2nd. Absolutely. With the caveat that the Cards be part of the contract restructure and take on cap hit.
Arizona would take a 22 million cap hit and his cap hit in new England would be 19.45 this year and 14.915 next year-it’s very easy to restructure for New England to restructure that to bring down the number in year one.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Arizona would take a 22 million cap hit and his cap hit in new England would be 19.45 this year and 14.915 next year-it’s very easy to restructure for New England to restructure that to bring down the number in year one.
Ahhh. Thanks for that. I find that, especially after a restructure, to be incredibly palatable.
 

SMU_Sox

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Just kicking this thought around but I think with BOB and for the Pats having a twitchy slot receiver who is fast and can give them nice RAC would be where I would want them to invest. Hopkins is a fantastic X receiver but I think the straw that stirs the drink will be the slot and while I like Meyers a lot he can't give them what a Jordan Addison or Josh Downs or Zay Flowers can. Put it this way. I think I would rather draft Zay Flowers in the 2nd round then trade that pick for Hopkins. Or Josh Downs... but Flowers is my first choice. I think Flowers has some AB to his game.
 

SMU_Sox

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Although guys to be fair the rumors are that Zay is going top 40 and there is buzz he might go first round.
 

Reardon's Beard

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Although guys to be fair the rumors are that Zay is going top 40 and there is buzz he might go first round.
I think would have to use your first for Zay. Might be able to do some Belichick first round maneuvering but would be surprised if he makes it out of the first. Could be wrong though - second round would be a pick well worth making.
 

Jimbodandy

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Just kicking this thought around but I think with BOB and for the Pats having a twitchy slot receiver who is fast and can give them nice RAC would be where I would want them to invest. Hopkins is a fantastic X receiver but I think the straw that stirs the drink will be the slot and while I like Meyers a lot he can't give them what a Jordan Addison or Josh Downs or Zay Flowers can. Put it this way. I think I would rather draft Zay Flowers in the 2nd round then trade that pick for Hopkins. Or Josh Downs... but Flowers is my first choice. I think Flowers has some AB to his game.
Apologies if this is a dumb question, but can they get one of these 3 guys and have Meyers (if he stays) play more of a traditional Z? He seems to run both slot and split Z routes, to my uneducated eye.
 

SMU_Sox

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Apologies if this is a dumb question, but can they get one of these 3 guys and have Meyers (if he stays) play more of a traditional Z? He seems to run both slot and split Z routes, to my uneducated eye.
Yes you could have him as a Z. But in the Patriots offense traditionally the Z and slot have a lot of overlap. Not always but many times.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Yes you could have him as a Z. But in the Patriots offense traditionally the Z and slot have a lot of overlap. Not always but many times.
What do you think the Saints are going to do with Michael Thomas' contract this offseason? Ride it out one more year for the 13mil cap hit, and then let him go next offseason (I believe it's a massive cap savings for them if they do that, but I could be wrong).

He's a guy I wouldn't mind throwing a 1 year incentive laden "show me" deal and can play in the slot if he can stay healthy. Even in 2019, almost half of his targets came when he was in the slot, even though he lined up there about 25% of the time. I think in a trade, New Orleans might move on from him for less than a 2nd rounder.
 

SMU_Sox

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Hate to bother you @AlNipper49 or really any dopes on this forum... but right now Twitter is not letting me upload videos and it has been awful the last month at doing so. Twitter is kind of fucked right now. I really want to upload some tape of WRs in the draft to show people but it says the files are too large to upload. What can I do to get around this?

Here I want to show people Jaxon SN from Ohio state and in part show why he kicks ass but also prove he doesn't have elite speed. I have the perfect video to do so but can't figure out a way to upload it.

Really appreciate the help.

60673


This is what twitter does before erroring out:
60674
 

SMU_Sox

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I feel like posting about WRs here vs the draft forum is probably better given this is how we can improve the WRs.

There are 3 guys I think I'd want to consider and possible a 4th. Jordan Addison (USC/Pitt), JSN (Ohio State), Zay Flowers (BC), and Josh Downs.

Jordan Addison played outside at USC but he was awful vs press and should be either a Z or slot receiver. He was a slot at Pitt. In NE's offense slot and Z overlap a lot. All of these guys, Addison included, are excellent route runners with a lot of deception in their routes AND in their stems/breaks. All of them have gumby hips and can snap off horizontal breaks or stop on a dime. Addison and Zay are probably the fastest of the 4, Downs a tick behind them, and JSN the slowest. All 4 have very good run after catch ability with Addison having the best burst and contact balance. All 4 have great vision as well and are elusive. JSN has the most power and a nice stiff-arm. I think Zay Flowers and possible Addison can play outside but Addison needs a lot of work there. Zay is the best separator. All 4 are terrific ball trackers but Addison has the biggest catch radius. He is also the best at catching the ball in stride even if it is misthrown. The only reason I am not sold on Downs is because he is slot only and unlike the other 3 doesn't even try to block. He was underused as a vertical receiver at UNC and when he did run those routes showed off excellent route running often burning corners and getting them to trip over themselves flipping their hips the wrong way. Downs also is probably the worst route runner of the group and while he is still a good to great route runner needs to slim down on some of the dancing.

You probably have to draft these guys between picks 20-46. A lot of years I would be hesitant to draft a WR early but I think these guys are what the team is missing. Zay Flowers has some AB imo. These aren't your Alpha Xs or versatile Xs as each guy is not ideal height, weight, and JSN lacks speed but all of them can be WR1 types except maybe Downs who might tap out as a high end slot WR2. I think Addison and Flowers are the best fits because of their speed element but JSN is the 2nd best route runner I have seen so far. If they can trade back and net another 2nd rounder my ideal draft would be like: Addison/Flowers, Darnell Wright, and then Darnell Washington. Get you an excellent WR, a great OT, and a high floor excellent blocking in-line TE.
 

SMU_Sox

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After three hours of trying it finally worked! I got it post.

View: https://twitter.com/JohnALimberakis/status/1620570854777298946



Notice on clip one that he gets tracked down from behind. Clip two is his route running. He is so good at getting separation.

Oh another thing - look at him both stopping and spinning around on a dime in clip one. That is Olavian. Rare stuff. And then the way he immediately sheds a tackle and knows the right angle to go upfield. Beautiful
 

SMU_Sox

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One of you asked me a while back how I looked improving myself and what works and doesn’t work. One of the ways is at WR I’ve looked at size. Guys I wasn’t as high on because of size ended up working out just fine or even better. A guy I think the Pats should be interested on day two of the draft is Nathaniel Dell out of Houston. Yes, fucking Houston. Grrr. But animosity aside (SMU fan here) this guy is a lighting bug. Good to great route runner who gets a ton of separation and is juiced up with both twitch and vertical gas. He is only 5'8" and 163 but he is a legit weapon from the slot. He’s going to run in the 4.3s. If they want to get faster and they don’t mind his size he’s a fit scheme wise for what they want to do. His run after catch is spectacular. He isn’t great at contested catches but his ball tracking is superb and he usually gets so much space that he doesn’t need to make the contested catches. In the red zone his fakes make corners and safeties trip over themselves clearing him room to work. I’ll post some highlights of him in an hour or so.

This WR class so far has a lot of guys that are not traditional high end first rounders but there are names to get excited about for what they can bring to a team. I think he would go in the same range as KJ Hamler who hasn’t worked out largely due to injuries.
 

chilidawg

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Jan 22, 2015
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One of you asked me a while back how I looked improving myself and what works and doesn’t work. One of the ways is at WR I’ve looked at size. Guys I wasn’t as high on because of size ended up working out just fine or even better. A guy I think the Pats should be interested on day two of the draft is Nathaniel Dell out of Houston. Yes, fucking Houston. Grrr. But animosity aside (SMU fan here) this guy is a lighting bug. Good to great route runner who gets a ton of separation and is juiced up with both twitch and vertical gas. He is only 5'8" and 163 but he is a legit weapon from the slot. He’s going to run in the 4.3s. If they want to get faster and they don’t mind his size he’s a fit scheme wise for what they want to do. His run after catch is spectacular. He isn’t great at contested catches but his ball tracking is superb and he usually gets so much space that he doesn’t need to make the contested catches. In the red zone his fakes make corners and safeties trip over themselves clearing him room to work. I’ll post some highlights of him in an hour or so.

This WR class so far has a lot of guys that are not traditional high end first rounders but there are names to get excited about for what they can bring to a team. I think he would go in the same range as KJ Hamler who hasn’t worked out largely due to injuries.
SMU do you think Marcus Jones is also that kind of (Dell) guy? Be interesting to see what they do with Jones next year.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
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Jul 20, 2009
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SMU do you think Marcus Jones is also that kind of (Dell) guy? Be interesting to see what they do with Jones next year.
Dell is a more experienced and talented route runner but yes exact same kind of player. Jones has about 10-15 pounds on him though. Sadly Dell is undersized at barely over 5'8" and 163 pounds. He is so fast and twitched up it just doesn't matter.
 

AlNipper49

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Apr 3, 2001
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Hate to bother you @AlNipper49 or really any dopes on this forum... but right now Twitter is not letting me upload videos and it has been awful the last month at doing so. Twitter is kind of fucked right now. I really want to upload some tape of WRs in the draft to show people but it says the files are too large to upload. What can I do to get around this?

Here I want to show people Jaxon SN from Ohio state and in part show why he kicks ass but also prove he doesn't have elite speed. I have the perfect video to do so but can't figure out a way to upload it.

Really appreciate the help.

View attachment 60673


This is what twitter does before erroring out:
View attachment 60674
The issue is a bit more complex than storing the actual video. You need the ability to also play back the video itself. There is way to get it but it would be a not-small-thing.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Jan 8, 2010
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Seen some folks mention that Pats should look into Evans or Godwin now that Brady is done. Godwin was intriguing just from an age and need perspective but the better move may be just to re-sign Jakobi.

Here are Godwin's and Jakobi's stats from 2020 - 2022 and they are eerily similar: https://stathead.com/tiny/QxAVa

Jakobi only needs a contract and no draft pick to obtain him and Godwin's cap hit for the team acquiring him will be $20M in both 2023 and 2024. I assume Jakobi could be had for less?
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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Seen some folks mention that Pats should look into Evans or Godwin now that Brady is done. Godwin was intriguing just from an age and need perspective but the better move may be just to re-sign Jakobi.

Here are Godwin's and Jakobi's stats from 2020 - 2022 and they are eerily similar: https://stathead.com/tiny/QxAVa

Jakobi only needs a contract and no draft pick to obtain him and Godwin's cap hit for the team acquiring him will be $20M in both 2023 and 2024. I assume Jakobi could be had for less?
Maybe, but I think some of that is role more than talent, He put those numbers up with plummeting ADOT (7.3 and 5.7 the last 2 years) his first 3 years were over 10. By comparison Jakobi's ADOT the last 2 were 9.8 and 9.9. Also even on the stats you noted.... putting up similar Y/T on more targets is tough, take into account the ADOT, and it's even more impressive.

When I compare them I see Godwin with better YAC numbers, lower drop rate, better catch rate, better and more consistent TD production. Also... he's a much faster and more explosive athlete.
I'm one of the board's bigger Jakobi supporters, and while his floor is very good, it's the same as Godwin's and Godwin has more ceiling. I'd willingly pay more for Godwin.

Edit- though also I think Godwin is going nowhere for now, they'll move Evans and keep the 26 year old to help whoever their new long term QB is.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
42,027
Seen some folks mention that Pats should look into Evans or Godwin now that Brady is done. Godwin was intriguing just from an age and need perspective but the better move may be just to re-sign Jakobi.

Here are Godwin's and Jakobi's stats from 2020 - 2022 and they are eerily similar: https://stathead.com/tiny/QxAVa

Jakobi only needs a contract and no draft pick to obtain him and Godwin's cap hit for the team acquiring him will be $20M in both 2023 and 2024. I assume Jakobi could be had for less?
Jakobi will likely be the highest, or very close to it, free agent contract of any WR in this year's class (that's how weak the free agent class). I've been saying all along he's looking at a Christian Kirk type of deal (Kirk just signed last offseason and his cap hits are 23m, 21.5m, 21.5m.

If Jakobi gets less than that, it won't be by much. Personally, I'd rather have Godwin over Evans, much tougher call between Godwin and Jakobi at the same price. I just love Godwin though.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
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Jul 20, 2009
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FWIW OTC has JM’s valuation at 8.2 million a year. I don’t think he will come that cheap but JAX is an outlier for spending… although I say that and the Pats signed Agholor for 2/25. It only takes one. I think JM though will tap out at around 17m a year. He isn’t a high end receiver. He’s a power slot and he’s not a fit for most teams. I don’t think Oakland or Tennessee has the cap space to fit him. I would guess he could sign a team friendly deal for 4 years 12-15m a year. Do you want him at that rate?

The more I think about JM as much as I love the guy I think they need a different kind of slot. If they do let him go they better draft one of the WRs high.
 

RedOctober3829

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Jul 19, 2005
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Jakobi will likely be the highest, or very close to it, free agent contract of any WR in this year's class (that's how weak the free agent class). I've been saying all along he's looking at a Christian Kirk type of deal (Kirk just signed last offseason and his cap hits are 23m, 21.5m, 21.5m.

If Jakobi gets less than that, it won't be by much. Personally, I'd rather have Godwin over Evans, much tougher call between Godwin and Jakobi at the same price. I just love Godwin though.
Signing Meyers would just be keeping the status quo of a really average at best WR room with him/Parker/Bourne/TT. They really need to sign Meyers plus go out and get a difference making WR in addition.
 

Jimbodandy

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Jan 31, 2006
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FWIW OTC has JM’s valuation at 8.2 million a year. I don’t think he will come that cheap but JAX is an outlier for spending… although I say that and the Pats signed Agholor for 2/25. It only takes one. I think JM though will tap out at around 17m a year. He isn’t a high end receiver. He’s a power slot and he’s not a fit for most teams. I don’t think Oakland or Tennessee has the cap space to fit him. I would guess he could sign a team friendly deal for 4 years 12-15m a year. Do you want him at that rate?

The more I think about JM as much as I love the guy I think they need a different kind of slot. If they do let him go they better draft one of the WRs high.
I was priming the pump earlier in order to get to this, but am I crazy for wanting them to keep Meyers AND grab one of your three college slots? Fwiw, Mac seems to have a trust relationship with Jacobi, with more targets, receptions, and yards than any other receiver (and with a decent catch rate). They should be able to trade down and grab one of the big3 plus a tackle and still sign a FA tackle too.

That's a lot of resources to throw at WR and OT, but the offense seems to need it.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
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FWIW OTC has JM’s valuation at 8.2 million a year. I don’t think he will come that cheap but JAX is an outlier for spending… although I say that and the Pats signed Agholor for 2/25. It only takes one. I think JM though will tap out at around 17m a year. He isn’t a high end receiver. He’s a power slot and he’s not a fit for most teams. I don’t think Oakland or Tennessee has the cap space to fit him. I would guess he could sign a team friendly deal for 4 years 12-15m a year. Do you want him at that rate?

The more I think about JM as much as I love the guy I think they need a different kind of slot. If they do let him go they better draft one of the WRs high.
Shit, if they could have had Meyers at 8.2/year, I would have extended him at that price last offseason. That's Braxton Berrois/Cedric Wilson's zip code, and I think he's far better than both of them.

I think at 12mil/year, I'd still sign him this offseason, because I think it would leave them room to get more help either through the draft or in free agency/trade. Anything higher than that, and I think we see a WR room not much different than the one we had this year and that's just no bueno.

If they do let him walk, I don't think they can only replace him via the draft. I think they need to go out and trade or sign another wide receiver, and then use a minimum 2nd rounder in the draft. Unless they're in love with an offensive lineman at 14, I'd be trading down for a WR/Olineman/Corner with the first 3 picks in some order.

FTR, I think Phil Perry is starting to read my posts around here, because he's now beating the drum that I've been beating for months on end:

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/nfl-conference-championship-games-shine-light-patriots-offseason-priority?b

This team needs weapons. Every team not named Kansas City does. This especially jumped out:

They spent a second-round pick on Tyquan Thornton last season. They're paying two veterans -- DeVante Parker and Kendrick Bourne -- on short-money deals for 2023. At this point, they rank 26th in the NFL in receiver spending for next season, placing them ahead of only the Packers, Colts, Falcons, Bears, Ravens and Niners.

Two of those six teams made the postseason in 2022 but also ranked near the top of the league in tight-end spending. The Patriots sit atop the NFL in cap space used on tight ends, but their duo of Hunter Henry and Jonnu Smith doesn't stack up with Kittle or Baltimore's Mark Andrews from a production standpoint.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah I think people are getting carried away on the Kirk thing, Kirk was generally considered a massive overpay I think Jakobi is looking at $12-14M a year.
 

tims4wins

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Jul 15, 2005
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I've written it before, but I just don't see the league valuing Meyers that high. He doesn't have the tangibles that Kirk had.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
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Apr 12, 2005
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I've written it before, but I just don't see the league valuing Meyers that high. He doesn't have the tangibles that Kirk had.
I hope you guys are right, and we can sign him for 12-13mil/year.

If you think Kirk has something Meyers doesn't, what do you think about Hunter Renfrow? The Raiders gave him 2/32.3mil last year with 21mil guaranteed.

Russell Gage got 3/30 with 20mil guaranteed

Courtland Sutton got 4/60.8 with 35mil guaranteed.


At the end of the day, most contracts come down to production. Meyers has just as much production over the last few years as any of those guys. I'll be shocked personally if he doesn't get north of 17.5mil/year from somebody. It's just what a good #2 receiver like him is worth in the market now, even before the increase in salary cap, and given how little wide receiver options there are out there in FA. As much as I've railed about Jakobi not being a #1 here in New England, he's going to be a good #2 for somebody. I prefer it be here, but I don't know...