How Thoroughly Effed NY Is
- Thread starter CoRP
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Meh it's only money. Like that's ever stopped them before.
And they lose Jeter's .610 OPS and statue range. That can only help them.
And they lose Jeter's .610 OPS and statue range. That can only help them.
They are never fucked. They have the resources to work themselves out of any jam, if they so desire.
It's nice to believe that this time will be different, but it never is.
They're like the fucking Terminator: they absolutely will not stop. Ever.
It's nice to believe that this time will be different, but it never is.
They're like the fucking Terminator: they absolutely will not stop. Ever.
drleather2001 said:
Yup. If I was a NY fan I wouldn't be worried. That list shows how incredibly inept they've been at targeting and signing the right players though, so that's entertaining. And to think the one guy they decided to let walk was Cano. It still boggles the mind.
If they're willing to spend $300 million per season they can DFA half those guys and start over. I'm not convinced that the market couldn't support a $300 million+ payroll.
glennhoffmania said:
Wait, just wanna be sure - you think they should have signed Cano to the contract that Seattle gave him? At some point they have to learn a lesson from all the bad contracts and, at least to me, it seems like they did when it came to Cano. Yes, it'd be nice to have him now, but he's in year one of a ten year deal and his power has majorly fallen off. I think holding firm on Cano was the right thing.
They may have the resources, but the way the game is going, fewer and fewer players are going to make it to free agency in their prime. I mean look at how their spending spree has gone this year outside of Tanaka.drleather2001 said:
cromulence said:
I think they could've had Cano for less than Seattle gave him. And while that may end up being a bad contract in 5 years or 8 years or whatever, they didn't seem to learn their lesson since they used that money to sign other bad contracts instead. But in the short term, Cano would've given them a much better return than any of the guys they signed this year.
glennhoffmania said:
I guess we'll agree to disagree on them being able to sign him for less. He bitched about them disrespecting him after it was all over and that was in reference to a 7 year deal with more money per year than he got from Seattle. He was always taking the biggest contract. And I don't think the lesson they learned was about money - it was about years. They weren't willing to go to ten years for a thirty year old, and I think they'll stick with that in the future (not that it's some brilliant discovery).
Let's revisit this in 6.5 years when we see how much they got out of Ellsbury for 22m+ compared to what Cano does for 24m.
The MFY are fine, Brian just ordered new checks.
I was going to start a similar thread:
As the Yankees prepare to battle the O's and eat into the 4-game lead, Brian Cashman, has a lot on his plate.
How is Brian going to play the next few weeks, and stay competitive in the AL East, while fixing his pitching staff beyond September 2014?
His ace is facing surgery and may be cooked, his new $154 million import may need TJ surgery, and could be cooked until 2016, his other Japanese import, will be a FA and is facing 40, and Pineda, who knows what ailment will hit him next? There's no real help in the farms, U.S labor laws and immigration won't let him pitch the international kids for a few more years, and maybe his most tradeable piece, (other than Betances) a hitter that still may be able to hit, can't play until next year.
His brain trust tells him the Phillies might part with Lee or Hamels, the stumbling Red Sox might be hurler top-heavy, and perhaps could be enticed to do something, then there are potential top of the rotation guys Scherzer, Lester, Shields, Masterson, FA sin '15, Price in '16, to consider. The menu looks good, but its going to be pricey, but Brian remembers, hey its not my money.
I was going to start a similar thread:
As the Yankees prepare to battle the O's and eat into the 4-game lead, Brian Cashman, has a lot on his plate.
How is Brian going to play the next few weeks, and stay competitive in the AL East, while fixing his pitching staff beyond September 2014?
His ace is facing surgery and may be cooked, his new $154 million import may need TJ surgery, and could be cooked until 2016, his other Japanese import, will be a FA and is facing 40, and Pineda, who knows what ailment will hit him next? There's no real help in the farms, U.S labor laws and immigration won't let him pitch the international kids for a few more years, and maybe his most tradeable piece, (other than Betances) a hitter that still may be able to hit, can't play until next year.
His brain trust tells him the Phillies might part with Lee or Hamels, the stumbling Red Sox might be hurler top-heavy, and perhaps could be enticed to do something, then there are potential top of the rotation guys Scherzer, Lester, Shields, Masterson, FA sin '15, Price in '16, to consider. The menu looks good, but its going to be pricey, but Brian remembers, hey its not my money.
glennhoffmania said:
Why are you ignoring what I'm saying? My entire point is that they had no problem paying Cano for the next seven years (and I don't think Ellsbury was his replacement, by the way). Their judgment was based on the three years beyond that. I just think it's kind of hilarious that everyone (rightfully) shits on the Yankees for the terrible megadeals, but when they finally make a responsible decision, they still get shit on for it. I think Cano is going to be a disaster in his late 30's so I'm OK with it, even though things suck right now.
I remember this thread when the subject was the Giants. The most screwed team in the majors!
The Yankees will be fine; they always are. Fortunes can change quickly for any team.
The Yankees will be fine; they always are. Fortunes can change quickly for any team.
You know we often say that the Yankees can buy themselves out of any problem. But is that really true? They've been trying that for the most part since 2004 and it's worked a grand total of once. Yeah, they have never really bottomed out and have always remained somewhat competitive. But throwing money at problems is weird science and fraught with potential mistakes. Of their four major investments this past off season, only one is currently both healthy and performing. And Ells is putting up "nice player" numbers, not mega star numbers.Lars The Wanderer said:
I think they might be more thoroughly effed than fine. Can they spend their way to competitive? Probably. But it will take really good spending (not Cashman's forte) and something from the existing base and farm system (seems kind of unlikely).
TheoShmeo said:
The point is, the Giants were in pretty much the same situation in 2008. A bunch of older players on their roster mixed in with guys that were either underperforming or just sucked outright. 2 years later they built a team that won 2 of the last 4 World Series. If the Giants can turn it around that quickly (with Brian Sabean as their GM!) the Yankees and their Scrooge McDuck money pool can do the same.
Theo kind of gets at it, but throwing big money at FAs doesn't work anymore. Their real problem is the lack of a multi-year philosophy or plan, their spending spree last offseason was short-sighted, misguided and pretty inevitably doomed to fail. The CBA has taken away many of the ways for them to use their money advantage, hence it's becoming increasingly clear that they currently have the dumbest of the 5 AL East front offices. As I've said before, I think the only real solution is for the Steinbrenner boys to sell, and a new owner start things again from the ground up.
I did love the flood of IFAs they signed last week, maybe that will pay dividends in 5-6 years. Outside of that and a handful of genuine prospects (Severino, Judge), it's very ugly in the Bronx (and I don't just mean rem).
I did love the flood of IFAs they signed last week, maybe that will pay dividends in 5-6 years. Outside of that and a handful of genuine prospects (Severino, Judge), it's very ugly in the Bronx (and I don't just mean rem).
Don't forget insurance... have to believe that if CC's career is over, the good hands people will help soften the blow. Same goes for other players eminently likely to miss extended time for injury before their contract is up, like A-Rod, Beltran, Ellsbury, and Brian Roberts (already on borrowed time)
Edit: Actually, to give the Devils their due, the MFY were wisely super-aggressive in the international free agent market this year. I heard somewhere (Buster Olney podcast?) that their haul could've been as strong as 6 of the top 10, or 9 of the top 15 available talent. Yeah, they'll have some penalties to pay, but that was the only way they were ever going to restore respectability to their farm system.
Edit Edit: here's a link on the international haul -- I had the numbers wrong, but they're still pretty amazing (4 of the top 7)...
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24605276/yanks-game-international-free-agent-system-as-big-money-mlbers-underperform
Edit: Actually, to give the Devils their due, the MFY were wisely super-aggressive in the international free agent market this year. I heard somewhere (Buster Olney podcast?) that their haul could've been as strong as 6 of the top 10, or 9 of the top 15 available talent. Yeah, they'll have some penalties to pay, but that was the only way they were ever going to restore respectability to their farm system.
Edit Edit: here's a link on the international haul -- I had the numbers wrong, but they're still pretty amazing (4 of the top 7)...
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24605276/yanks-game-international-free-agent-system-as-big-money-mlbers-underperform
Mugsys Jock said:
This is true, but there's no longer an easy way to channel that back into winning games. They can outbid teams for someone like Lester or Scherzer, but odds are that those guys will be bad contracts by the middle of their deals also.
cromulence said:
I'm not at all ignoring what you're saying. I'm saying that it's entirely possible that the amount by which Cano's value exceeds Ellsbury's value over the next 7 years will make up for the additional three years they'd have to pay him.
I'm not saying that giving Cano 10 years would've been responsible. I'm saying that they have given out so many dumb contracts, including this year, and that I think Cano's would've been less dumb than many of them. So pointing to Cano and saying "look how responsible they were" doesn't really mean much when they were more irresponsible in multiple deals with other players.
Also, I didn't mean to imply that Ellsbury replaced Cano. I was simply pointing out an example of a contract that was dumber than Cano's and will end up being less valuable than Cano's when all is said and done. They would've been better off signing Cano and not signing Ellsbury. But like I said, we'll have to see how they all play out over the next few years. This was discussed to death already during the offseason so no point in further rehashing it.
Short answer: Maybe they have operated "smarter", using the one real advantage they have, financial, to yield an advantage on the field. They've been unlucky to a certain extent, but its hard to ignore they've fielded more post-season teams than any other teams over the past 20-40 years.
Now whether this advantage will sustain them going forward is very debatable, as it means being consistently smart buying the FA (salary caps be damned), but now competing against other smart buyers, and at the same time, sacrificing draft picks..
In some regards they've floundered over the past several years, ironically due to their fears of rebuilding and playing to empty seats..
Now whether this advantage will sustain them going forward is very debatable, as it means being consistently smart buying the FA (salary caps be damned), but now competing against other smart buyers, and at the same time, sacrificing draft picks..
In some regards they've floundered over the past several years, ironically due to their fears of rebuilding and playing to empty seats..
But the financial advantages are shrinking.
They failed, shamefully and stupidly, to abuse the draft pre slotting and now cannot.
They just abused the IFA market but as a result can't do it again next year, and waited until a draft is almost certain to do it.
And even here the majority of IFA top signing flames out.
Less and less premium free agents hit the market and there is ever more money chasing the few guys who come up.
If I were the Yankees I would be spending hand over fist on the best scouts, coaches and every little edge I could get in development and training etc. What else is there. Sure they can go nuts on free agents, but that gets you McCann and Beltran these days.
They should be on every Japanese, Cuban etc as that's only pure money play left (nearly).
Look at Stanton. The Marlins are likely to trade him if they don't want to sign him, and that trade will likely require some kind of new deal. The farm doesn't just get you your own players it can get you first dibs on the the next guy. IF he hits free agency he's going to be expensive too, because teams like the Sox have half a team of kids playing for peanuts and can bust a nut on the top guy. Sure if your check book is unlimited some guys are going to play to that and go to free agency, but getting peak years is HARD because young players have a lot of incentive for their future to sign an extension and hit free agency later. See Trout as an example. There was no one more likely to get a bigger deal if he waited to hit free agency but it's tricky when you can secure your future AND still hit free agency and get paid by the Yankees or other.
I just think that the days of money as a simple solution are passing (still helps mind!). The failure of the Yankees to abuse the draft system while they could is still a mind boggling failure.
One power of money is to keep your stars, or to trade and extent talent. Both need trade assets in the form of talent.
The possible exception is the Dodgers type trade, where you eat enough overpriced contracts to get talent.
They failed, shamefully and stupidly, to abuse the draft pre slotting and now cannot.
They just abused the IFA market but as a result can't do it again next year, and waited until a draft is almost certain to do it.
And even here the majority of IFA top signing flames out.
Less and less premium free agents hit the market and there is ever more money chasing the few guys who come up.
If I were the Yankees I would be spending hand over fist on the best scouts, coaches and every little edge I could get in development and training etc. What else is there. Sure they can go nuts on free agents, but that gets you McCann and Beltran these days.
They should be on every Japanese, Cuban etc as that's only pure money play left (nearly).
Look at Stanton. The Marlins are likely to trade him if they don't want to sign him, and that trade will likely require some kind of new deal. The farm doesn't just get you your own players it can get you first dibs on the the next guy. IF he hits free agency he's going to be expensive too, because teams like the Sox have half a team of kids playing for peanuts and can bust a nut on the top guy. Sure if your check book is unlimited some guys are going to play to that and go to free agency, but getting peak years is HARD because young players have a lot of incentive for their future to sign an extension and hit free agency later. See Trout as an example. There was no one more likely to get a bigger deal if he waited to hit free agency but it's tricky when you can secure your future AND still hit free agency and get paid by the Yankees or other.
I just think that the days of money as a simple solution are passing (still helps mind!). The failure of the Yankees to abuse the draft system while they could is still a mind boggling failure.
One power of money is to keep your stars, or to trade and extent talent. Both need trade assets in the form of talent.
The possible exception is the Dodgers type trade, where you eat enough overpriced contracts to get talent.
And that's why I said the financial advantage being as advantageous going forward is very debatable. Increasingly the MFY will be forced to pony up for the 7-year contracts for 30-something over-priced players. Their problem is they feel they can't suck/rebuild, because they're the Yankees, and there are expensive seats to sell and TV ratings to worry about. The risk they run now, is that with the Mets assembling a young and very good rotation, with the addition of a couple of bats and the return of Matt Harvey, they might be a competing attraction to an aging team selling over-priced seats.
Lars The Wanderer said:
Two things:
(1) The MFY will sign Price and Lester, trade for Tulo, and tell Slappy to be sure he comes back to the team "in shape" *wink wink* and they'll be absolutely fine for a few more years. They only reason they are so bad this year is because they pursued, then backed off of, the $189mm plan. If they'd just stuck with the plan, they'd be better-equipped to do what I've described above. But I bet they do it anyway.
(2) While I understand your point Lars, I disagree. In 2008, the Giants drafted Crawford and Posey, had MadBum in the minors, Cain and Lincecum were about to be dominant, and Panda got called up. AFAIK, the MFY have roughly one player with that combination of youth and quality in either the majors or minors (Betances). It is a minor miracle the Giants were able to accumulate so much home-grown talent in so little time (keep in mind that Posey and Crawford hardly spent any time in the minors), and I'd be surprised if the MFY can pull off the same thing in time to get home-grown contributors on the 2016 team (especially if they have to trade whatever they've got on the farm in order to get Tulo).
"the farm" and I'd guess in this case it would have to be an actual farm that Hal owns, because there's not much in the minors that 28 or so teams couldn't match or beat.LondonSox said:
In all seriousness, I'd be pissed of the Yankees got Tulo - I don't think there is a single offer they could make that the Sox shouldn't beat.
I am of the opinion the Yankees should just bite the bullet and admit to themselves that it will be a couple of tough years, and start looking towards making moves that impact 2017 and beyond, rather than trying to spend themselves into an 87 win season, and an outside shot at a playoff spot. But if they play the same games offseason 2014 they did in offseason 2013 they might be screwed for years longer, or heaven forbid if they do something like trade Judge, Severino for a short term rotation fix
I am not saying stay out of the free agent market, but I am saying that they should target players who will be in their prime years in the 2017 and beyond window. No more Soriano, Beltran types hanging on and hoping for one more good year
Keep an eye out for opportunities to move some of the flotsam out over time. Maybe someone will take gardner from you, probably won't get much but also might be able to give the contract away. Maybe at some point as he moves towards the end, you can move half a year or even a year of Teixeira. Obviously waive them all during the August timeframe, and be willing to walk away if anyone does something stupid like put in a claim.
And build around the young talent they do have coming. There is not much at AA and above at the moment; although, Ref needs a chance soon. But it does appear the talent level in A ball is good, and well below that level is too far to judge, there is a ton of potential there.
I am not saying stay out of the free agent market, but I am saying that they should target players who will be in their prime years in the 2017 and beyond window. No more Soriano, Beltran types hanging on and hoping for one more good year
Keep an eye out for opportunities to move some of the flotsam out over time. Maybe someone will take gardner from you, probably won't get much but also might be able to give the contract away. Maybe at some point as he moves towards the end, you can move half a year or even a year of Teixeira. Obviously waive them all during the August timeframe, and be willing to walk away if anyone does something stupid like put in a claim.
And build around the young talent they do have coming. There is not much at AA and above at the moment; although, Ref needs a chance soon. But it does appear the talent level in A ball is good, and well below that level is too far to judge, there is a ton of potential there.
Pretty much agreed, although there's a difference between stopgaps like Soriano (1 1/2 seasons when they got him and the Cubs picked up much of the contract) and taking on a new deal like Beltran at 3/45 (they need to stop doing this, fully agreed).
Why let Gardner go? He seems worth his contract to me, but possibly I don't pay close enough attention.
InsideTheParker said:
He's probably worth the contract today, which means it might be one they are able to move, but at the same time it is 50 million over the next 4, and I doubt he will be worth it for the length of the deal. I personally see him as someone who is likely to be a big drag on the team around the time, they might be ready to start competing again
They spent a ton of money last year knowing the holes they'd have to fill after this season They knew this is probably Kuroda's last year, they knew they need another outfielder, as Soriano and Ichiro were gone and Beltran was a probably part time DH.They knew they're going to have to fill SS and or 2B and have nobody coming up to fill those slots. They didn't spend that money last year to not spend more this year.
I don't know if they have an endless supply of cash, but I don't think they're near their ceiling
I don't know if they have an endless supply of cash, but I don't think they're near their ceiling
Don't tell us; tell the guys who signed Carlos Beltran and Jacoby Ellsbury this year.jon abbey said:
jon abbey said:
Of course they work, look at all the people round here clamoring for the Sox to sign Lester for 6/$130
But seriously, it's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out. The new system severely limited how the MFYs are able to leverage their financial resources (and with the coming international draft, there will be even more limits). However, the MFYs still have all this money to spend.
I don't think the MFYs care if they spend millions of dollars on prospects who don't pan out or players on the DL. Most teams are going to be at a severe disadvantage if they have more than one bad multi-year major contract. Not the Yankees. Apparently, they don't care if they have five bad contracts.
At this point, they don't really have any choice but to buy their teams, do they?