How Many of the Red Sox Managers of Your Lifetime do you have a Visceral Hatred for?

[bob burda]

I read in a few books how Yaz pleaded with Zimmer to put Lee back in the rotation. He still wouldn't. All because Lee said Zimmer looked like a gerbil.

It wasn’t just that, it’s well documented in Gammo’s book. There was a personality/generational/cultural clash between the two of them. Lee thrived again under Dick Williams who mostly only cared that you adhered to his basic direction and if you could help him win. This points up how Zimmer’s basic problem in handling players was in playing favorites based entirely on personality, and not on performance. And there are multiple categories for evaluating managers; bullpen mgt, starting rotation mgt, game situations, handling players, lineup construction etc., and in every aspect Zimmer was a failure.

But I’m not one who thinks he was stupid, and instead I think he constantly let issues of character or “intangibles” rule his thinking. He had a huge collection of ur-beliefs (like his love for old NL Vets, there was an amazing sequence of them, and I don’t think this was Heywood’s doing since it mostly stopped after Zimmer left) that wouldn’t yield to evidence, which is why he was so confounding. Really all of the old school mgrs were like this about any number of things, but with Zimmer it was like EVERY decision was made this way. I still can’t understand how he got another mgr gig, much less that he guided the ‘89 Cubs to a Div title. If he was just a stupid idiot I could forgive him, but for all the pigheaded magical thinking?…never.

 

[lexrageorge]

Some recollections on some of the managers noted above:

For those interested, you can find the replay of the Yankees broadcast of the 1978 playoff game on Youtube. Incidentally, that one game playoff was the first one in the American League since the 1948 game. At the start of the broadcast, Phil Rizutto mentioned how he had talked with the late Joe McCarthy in the past about the 1948 playoff game, and McCarthy had defended the choice by saying Galehouse was the only one that had stepped forward saying he wanted to pitch that game, which was obvious bullshit.

I guess I don't understand why some posters above hate Eddie Kasko; his teams overachieved. But there were a number of warning signs about his successor, Darrell Johnson starting in 1974 when the Sox had a 7 game lead on August 23rd and finished in 3rd place 7 games behind the Orioles.

Johnson wanted the 1975 team to be aggressive on the base paths. Red Sox collected 66 stolen bases, third from the bottom in the league, but were caught 58 times. In Game 2, with the Sox were leading 1-0 in the bottom of the 2nd and had Evans on 2nd and Burleson on 1st and one out. Bill Lee was batting; while he hadn't taken an at bat in anger since 1972 (a season in which he had a triple and a home run), he did work hard on bunting and was in position for a sacrifice attempt. Instead, Johnson sends Evans to steal third on one of baseball's best catchers ever in Johnny Bench, handing the Reds an easy out, after which Lee strikes out to end the inning.

Still, Bill Lee pitches well, keeping the Reds off balance with his trademark breaking pitches all game, and the teams enter a rain delay after the 8th inning with the Sox clinging to a 2-1 lead. After the delay, Johnson surprisingly put Lee back in the game. Lee had been dealing with a hyperextended elbow (suffered during batting practice) most of September, during which he was limited to 4 starts (0-2, 7.04 ERA), and he didn't pitch an inning during the Sox 3-game sweep over Oakland in the ALCS. Lee's first pitch was hit hard by Bench for a leadoff double. It was a dubious decision by Johnson; it was the 4th time that Lee was going through the Reds lineup. The first 4 batters due up for the Reds were Bench, Perez, Foster, and Concepcion, all right handed hitters. Righties Dick Drago and Jim Willoughby were ready in the bullpen. Later in the inning, Concepcion would drive in Bench for the tying run with a grounder up the middle. Lee felt that Johnson misplayed the defensive setup, and should have had Denny Doyle playing more shallow to make the play on the slow running Bench. Lefty Griffey Sr would drive in Concepcion for the go-ahead run; a missed opportunity to have brought in left handed Rogelio Moret, who had an outstanding season.

In Game 3, Fred Lynn ran into a key out on the base paths in the 4th and the Sox holding a 1-0 lead. In the bottom of the 5th, Rick Wise had been struggling, and was lifted after giving up 2 home runs and a triple in the inning. Down only 4-1 early, Johnson called upon rookie Jim Burton despite having a rested bullpen in reserve. Now, Burton wasn't exactly terrible; he actually had had a decent season, pitching 53 innings in a variety of starting and relief roles earning a 3.66 FIP and 2.89 ERA. And at least Burton was a lefty about to face 2 left handed batters in Griffey and Joe Morgan. But Moret had thrown far more innings and may have been the better choice. The Reds managed to scratch a run via Morgan's sacrifice fly to take a 5-1 lead. OK, this one is not so bad. But the 9th was worse.

The Sox had tied the game thanks to a Dwight Evans home run, and had a runner on 2nd (Burleson) and one out and the pitcher due up. Jim Willoughby had done well in his 2 innings of relief. But the Sox did have Juan Beniquez and Rick Miller and Doug Griffin (ok, probably not an option) available to pinch hit. While Willoughby did execute the sacrifice bunt well, the Sox were not able to take advantage and the Reds escaped without any further damage. Sparky Anderson had no such qualms about pinch hitting Ed Armbister for Eastwick in the 10th, and the rest was history.

Not much to say about Games 4 (Tiant threw something like 150 pitches in a complete game) or 5 (easy Reds victory). But Bill Lee mentioned soon after the Series ended that the Sox should have been up 3-2 going into Game 6 rather than down 3-2, and he wasn't wrong. Going with Tiant to start Game 6 may have been a mistake; the Reds were starting to figure him out in Game 4, and were it not for the heroics of Carbo, Fisk, Evans and others, the decision to start Tiant over a rested Lee or Wise would have been questioned more heavily than it was.

In Game 7, there was certainly an interesting decision point in the bottom of the 5th with the Sox having the bases loaded and 2 outs and Bill Lee batting. Modern day managers may have pinch hit here, but back in the day, it was conventional wisdom to keep the starting pitcher in as long as possible, and Lee was pitching a shutout at that point. The stupid pitch to Perez was on Lee, but the Sox still had a 3-2 lead at that point. But, for some reason, Johnson replaced Bernie Carbo with Rick Miller defensively to start the 7th, thereby burning a potential pinch hitter. I can accept Johnson putting in Moret to face a couple of lefties after Lee walked Griffey in 4 pitches. Batting Cooper for Willoughby was questionable, given that there were 2 outs and nobody on, and Willoughby had been pitching well. Drago was unavailable after pitching 3 innings the prior night, and Wise had pitched an inning as well. But, still, sending Jim Burton to start the 9th was inexcusable.

In 2003, John Henry wanted Theo to fire Grady Little after a series against the Cardinals in Fenway during which Little was out-managed by Tony LaRussa in 2 close losses.

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

Some recollections on some of the managers noted above:

For those interested, you can find the replay of the Yankees broadcast of the 1978 playoff game on Youtube. Incidentally, that one game playoff was the first one in the American League since the 1948 game. At the start of the broadcast, Phil Rizutto mentioned how he had talked with the late Joe McCarthy in the past about the 1948 playoff game, and McCarthy had defended the choice by saying Galehouse was the only one that had stepped forward saying he wanted to pitch that game, which was obvious bullshit.

I guess I don't understand why some posters above hate Eddie Kasko; his teams overachieved. But there were a number of warning signs about his successor, Darrell Johnson starting in 1974 when the Sox had a 7 game lead on August 23rd and finished in 3rd place 7 games behind the Orioles.

Johnson wanted the 1975 team to be aggressive on the base paths. Red Sox collected 66 stolen bases, third from the bottom in the league, but were caught 58 times. In Game 2, with the Sox were leading 1-0 in the bottom of the 2nd and had Evans on 2nd and Burleson on 1st and one out. Bill Lee was batting; while he hadn't taken an at bat in anger since 1972 (a season in which he had a triple and a home run), he did work hard on bunting and was in position for a sacrifice attempt. Instead, Johnson sends Evans to steal third on one of baseball's best catchers ever in Johnny Bench, handing the Reds an easy out, after which Lee strikes out to end the inning.

Still, Bill Lee pitches well, keeping the Reds off balance with his trademark breaking pitches all game, and the teams enter a rain delay after the 8th inning with the Sox clinging to a 2-1 lead. After the delay, Johnson surprisingly put Lee back in the game. Lee had been dealing with a hyperextended elbow (suffered during batting practice) most of September, during which he was limited to 4 starts (0-2, 7.04 ERA), and he didn't pitch an inning during the Sox 3-game sweep over Oakland in the ALCS. Lee's first pitch was hit hard by Bench for a leadoff double. It was a dubious decision by Johnson; it was the 4th time that Lee was going through the Reds lineup. The first 4 batters due up for the Reds were Bench, Perez, Foster, and Concepcion, all right handed hitters. Righties Dick Drago and Jim Willoughby were ready in the bullpen. Later in the inning, Concepcion would drive in Bench for the tying run with a grounder up the middle. Lee felt that Johnson misplayed the defensive setup, and should have had Denny Doyle playing more shallow to make the play on the slow running Bench. Lefty Griffey Sr would drive in Concepcion for the go-ahead run; a missed opportunity to have brought in left handed Rogelio Moret, who had an outstanding season.

In Game 3, Fred Lynn ran into a key out on the base paths in the 4th and the Sox holding a 1-0 lead. In the bottom of the 5th, Rick Wise had been struggling, and was lifted after giving up 2 home runs and a triple in the inning. Down only 4-1 early, Johnson called upon rookie Jim Burton despite having a rested bullpen in reserve. Now, Burton wasn't exactly terrible; he actually had had a decent season, pitching 53 innings in a variety of starting and relief roles earning a 3.66 FIP and 2.89 ERA. And at least Burton was a lefty about to face 2 left handed batters in Griffey and Joe Morgan. But Moret had thrown far more innings and may have been the better choice. The Reds managed to scratch a run via Morgan's sacrifice fly to take a 5-1 lead. OK, this one is not so bad. But the 9th was worse.

The Sox had tied the game thanks to a Dwight Evans home run, and had a runner on 2nd (Burleson) and one out and the pitcher due up. Jim Willoughby had done well in his 2 innings of relief. But the Sox did have Juan Beniquez and Rick Miller and Doug Griffin (ok, probably not an option) available to pinch hit. While Willoughby did execute the sacrifice bunt well, the Sox were not able to take advantage and the Reds escaped without any further damage. Sparky Anderson had no such qualms about pinch hitting Ed Armbister for Eastwick in the 10th, and the rest was history.

Not much to say about Games 4 (Tiant threw something like 150 pitches in a complete game) or 5 (easy Reds victory). But Bill Lee mentioned soon after the Series ended that the Sox should have been up 3-2 going into Game 6 rather than down 3-2, and he wasn't wrong. Going with Tiant to start Game 6 may have been a mistake; the Reds were starting to figure him out in Game 4, and were it not for the heroics of Carbo, Fisk, Evans and others, the decision to start Tiant over a rested Lee or Wise would have been questioned more heavily than it was.

In Game 7, there was certainly an interesting decision point in the bottom of the 5th with the Sox having the bases loaded and 2 outs and Bill Lee batting. Modern day managers may have pinch hit here, but back in the day, it was conventional wisdom to keep the starting pitcher in as long as possible, and Lee was pitching a shutout at that point. The stupid pitch to Perez was on Lee, but the Sox still had a 3-2 lead at that point. But, for some reason, Johnson replaced Bernie Carbo with Rick Miller defensively to start the 7th, thereby burning a potential pinch hitter. I can accept Johnson putting in Moret to face a couple of lefties after Lee walked Griffey in 4 pitches. Batting Cooper for Willoughby was questionable, given that there were 2 outs and nobody on, and Willoughby had been pitching well. Drago was unavailable after pitching 3 innings the prior night, and Wise had pitched an inning as well. But, still, sending Jim Burton to start the 9th was inexcusable.

In 2003, John Henry wanted Theo to fire Grady Little after a series against the Cardinals in Fenway during which Little was out-managed by Tony LaRussa in 2 close losses.

To be fair, the '74 Orioles went 28-6 down the stretch. Not that I'm defending Darrell Johnson, but even if the Sox had a 21-13 end to the season they're tied. It's tough to blame the manager when a competitor plays .820 ball for the last 20% of the season.

 

[jon abbey]

To be fair, the '74 Orioles went 28-6 down the stretch. Not that I'm defending Darrell Johnson, but even if the Sox had a 21-13 end to the season they're tied. It's tough to blame the manager when a competitor plays .820 ball for the last 20% of the season.

BAL was just 63-65 before that and ended with just 91 wins, hardly unbeatable.

 

[Van Everyman]

Re. Grady, there was an earlier blunder he made by leaving John Burkett in—perhaps during the Oakland series?—that absolutely previewed the failure agains the Yankees. It was not “one bad decision.” The guy was all hunches and gut feelings in an era when data was beginning to be used strategically in-game. He was a fossil.

Yes 2002 was disappointing. I keep forgetting. Two 20 game winners. I thought they would make the playoffs either way until late August of course.

I still remember a September Fenway game against Oakland while feeling of doom and gloom of them coming up short, again, at the close of 2002. And then Manny hit a rocket to right center that looked for a moment like it was gonna go out and save the season in walkoff fashion. Then Terrence Long reached up at the warning track and brought it in to end the game and season.

D Lowe got Long back a year later but to that point, that was the ultimate “no…no..yes? yes? YES YES YES YE- ….no” moment.

 

[GreenMonster49]

Yes my father always brought that up. He remembered. It should have been a Subway Series, or T Series.

I'm not going to defend McCarthy, but Gene Bearden (the winning pitcher) was on a tear going into the playoff. His combined pitching line since September 1st:

9 G/7 GS/60 IP/50 H/13 R/23 BB/24 K/1 HR/0 HBP/5 CG/2 SHO

The two shutouts were on September 28th (2 days rest) and October 2nd (3 days rest). So he threw a 5-hit complete game (3 runs, 2 unearned thanks to Joe Gordon dropping a Ted Williams pop-up) on 1 day's rest. Perhaps it didn't matter who McCarthy chose. (He was still an idiot for picking Galehouse.)

 

[reggiecleveland]

For me Zimmer gets the nod, hands down, for reasons exhaustively detailed upthread. All the contenders fall short of his special, historic level of incompetence, though in my mind Johnson ('75) and McNamara ('86) will always have much to answer for.

Let's not allow recency bias to blind us to the fact that our team had some idiot managers in the more distant past. The thread title specifies "in your lifetime," and I'm 82. So I was alive but not aware when Joe McCarthy forged a special record of stupidity in 1948.

By 1948 McCarthy the one-time genius "push-button manager" of the Cubs and then the Yankees in their Second Dynasty in the 1930's, was a faded shell of what he'd been in his days of great success.
He subscribed to a lot of notions and superstitions, groundless and unique to him, that were laughable to his players, though such was his stature, still, that nobody would have dared challenge him. Everybody smoked in those days, and one of McCarthy's quirky beliefs was that any man who smoked a pipe was a sedate pussy who could never be a manly, competitive baseball player. The story is told that one of his players, smoking a pipe, was told that McCarthy was approaching and in terror stuck the lighted pipe in his pocket, where it burned a hole in his trousers.

More important, probably, was the fact that he had become a full-blown alcoholic; not just a heavy drinker but a sodden lush.

How, apart from these factors -- age-based decline and alcoholism -- are we to account for the fact that in a one-game playoff with Cleveland for the AL pennant in 1948 McCarthy gave the starting nod to the pedestrian Denny Galehose...with both Mel Parnell and Ellis Kinder rested and anxious to take the mound?

The result was predictable, and I can still remember how upset my dad was, though I didn't quite understand why. Cleveland took the flag and went on to beat the Braves in the Series, and Cleveland hasn't won it since.

So, fellow SOSH'ers, when we're listing execrable Red Sox managers, let's not forget Marse Joe.

In Halberstam's book the claim was McCarthy didn't want to pitch a lefty in Fenway.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Re. Grady, there was an earlier blunder he made by leaving John Burkett in—perhaps during the Oakland series?—that absolutely previewed the failure agains the Yankees. It was not “one bad decision.” The guy was all hunches and gut feelings in an era when data was beginning to be used strategically in-game. He was a fossil.

I remember reading something about how the front office used to give Little a stack of printouts/information about that night's competition and he'd thank them for their work and as soon as they left, would literally throw it in the trash. One of the writers, I want to say it was Cafardo but I am probably wrong about this, witnessed this and said that Little looked at the writer rolled his eyes, chuckled and then threw the reports away. The insinuation was that the nerds upstairs don't understand the game played down here and that he didn't need all this info to tell him what he knew and felt.

 

[Leskanic's Thread]

For me Zimmer gets the nod, hands down, for reasons exhaustively detailed upthread. All the contenders fall short of his special, historic level of incompetence, though in my mind Johnson ('75) and McNamara ('86) will always have much to answer for.

Let's not allow recency bias to blind us to the fact that our team had some idiot managers in the more distant past. The thread title specifies "in your lifetime," and I'm 82. So I was alive but not aware when Joe McCarthy forged a special record of stupidity in 1948.

By 1948 McCarthy the one-time genius "push-button manager" of the Cubs and then the Yankees in their Second Dynasty in the 1930's, was a faded shell of what he'd been in his days of great success.
He subscribed to a lot of notions and superstitions, groundless and unique to him, that were laughable to his players, though such was his stature, still, that nobody would have dared challenge him. Everybody smoked in those days, and one of McCarthy's quirky beliefs was that any man who smoked a pipe was a sedate pussy who could never be a manly, competitive baseball player. The story is told that one of his players, smoking a pipe, was told that McCarthy was approaching and in terror stuck the lighted pipe in his pocket, where it burned a hole in his trousers.

More important, probably, was the fact that he had become a full-blown alcoholic; not just a heavy drinker but a sodden lush.

How, apart from these factors -- age-based decline and alcoholism -- are we to account for the fact that in a one-game playoff with Cleveland for the AL pennant in 1948 McCarthy gave the starting nod to the pedestrian Denny Galehose...with both Mel Parnell and Ellis Kinder rested and anxious to take the mound?

The result was predictable, and I can still remember how upset my dad was, though I didn't quite understand why. Cleveland took the flag and went on to beat the Braves in the Series, and Cleveland hasn't won it since.

So, fellow SOSH'ers, when we're listing execrable Red Sox managers, let's not forget Marse Joe.

My dad (two years older than you) grew up a Braves fan. He still defaults to rooting against Cleveland because first they screwed up the possibility of the T series and then they beat his beloved Braves.

He doesn't message board, but I feel comfortable speaking for him that he would agree with your nomination of McCarthy for the inner circle of dumb.

 

[jose melendez]

I think it's only Bobby V. and Zimmer. Kennedy seems like a dick though.

I'll also say, the story about Joe Morgan telling Ellis Burks "not to chase the white cat" is pretty disgusting.

 

[Shaky Walton]

I will hate Grady Little until I die. He's in the Ben Dreith Pantheon of Hell for me. After my worst fears were realized in Game 7, I made a list of 17 decisions he made in the 2003 playoffs, NOT INCLUDING the Pedro Boner, that I thought were mind numbingly stupid. I wish I kept it.

No one else comes close for me, including Bobby V.

 

[jaytftwofive]

It wasn’t just that, it’s well documented in Gammo’s book. There was a personality/generational/cultural clash between the two of them. Lee thrived again under Dick Williams who mostly only cared that you adhered to his basic direction and if you could help him win. This points up how Zimmer’s basic problem in handling players was in playing favorites based entirely on personality, and not on performance. And there are multiple categories for evaluating managers; bullpen mgt, starting rotation mgt, game situations, handling players, lineup construction etc., and in every aspect Zimmer was a failure.

But I’m not one who thinks he was stupid, and instead I think he constantly let issues of character or “intangibles” rule his thinking. He had a huge collection of ur-beliefs (like his love for old NL Vets, there was an amazing sequence of them, and I don’t think this was Heywood’s doing since it mostly stopped after Zimmer left) that wouldn’t yield to evidence, which is why he was so confounding. Really all of the old school mgrs were like this about any number of things, but with Zimmer it was like EVERY decision was made this way. I still can’t understand how he got another mgr gig, much less that he guided the ‘89 Cubs to a Div title. If he was just a stupid idiot I could forgive him, but for all the pigheaded magical thinking?…never.

Yes in Lee's book "The Wrong Stuff" he said when Williams would put you in the doghouse there was a key if you got better. Zimmer had no key, you were done according to the Spaceman.

 

[jaytftwofive]

Come to think of it I have no real disdain (I don't like the word hate, sorry) for Kasko, even though I didn't think he was that good a manager. So it's Zimmer and Bobby V for me. And John Farrell for turning that team around should have a plaque or something. 2013 was so fantastic, surprising and emotional. Worst to first. When they beat the Tigers in Game 6 I almost had tears of joy. Alright I'm biased because that's my name also.

 

[jasail]

I'm 40, so I started watching the Sox during the McNamara era but Butch Hobson was the first manager I really remember. As a kid and teen in the 90s, I don't really remember viscerally hating any Sox manager. Those Sox teams were mostly mediocre and so were the managers. As much as I wanted to hate Jimmy Williams at times, Duquette's roster construction also seemed to feature insurmountable holes. They just didn't evoke visceral feelings in me. Honestly, ML Carr, Rick Pitino, and Chris Wallace had propriety rights to my sports hatred.

Grady is an interesting case because I really liked that '03 team, but he made probably the single worst managerial decision in Red Sox history. I had visceral hatred for Grady at the time and for about a year after that. '04 proved to be a significant antidote to my Grady hate though. In the post Grady era, most of the managers have been mostly good. Tito was the first Sox manager I liked. On average, he was a very good manager. His tenure came to an ugly end, but on average he was a very good manager and he gave us '04 and won again in '07, so he has my eternal gratitude for that. I didn't love Farrell the manager, but I never hated him. Plus, that '13 team was my all time favorite. Like his more recent predecessors Cora's tenure has generally been good, albeit bumpy. When he's shown the door, retrospect will likely prevent hate because winning cures all and he got his.

That leaves one name and one name alone. In my lifetime, he's not only my least favorite coach/manager of a sports team, but quite possible a top five worst human. To borrow a phrase, he's someone I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. My visceral hate for Red Sox managers begins and ends with that man. Even still, his tenure here reminds me of a song lyric I like, "Here child some poverty, it'll help you love your toys." Because my hatred for him (and my feelings towards other events I have yet to find similar room for grace for) allowed me to become invested in that '13 team in ways I wouldn't have otherwise, and that year was a ride.

 

[jaytftwofive]

I'm 40, so I started watching the Sox during the McNamara era but Butch Hobson was the first manager I really remember. As a kid and teen in the 90s, I don't really remember viscerally hating any Sox manager. Those Sox teams were mostly mediocre and so were the managers. As much as I wanted to hate Jimmy Williams at times, Duquette's roster construction also seemed to feature insurmountable holes. They just didn't evoke visceral feelings in me. Honestly, ML Carr, Rick Pitino, and Chris Wallace had propriety rights to my sports hatred.

Grady is an interesting case because I really liked that '03 team, but he made probably the single worst managerial decision in Red Sox history. I had visceral hatred for Grady at the time and for about a year after that. '04 proved to be a significant antidote to my Grady hate though. In the post Grady era, most of the managers have been mostly good. Tito was the first Sox manager I liked. On average, he was a very good manager. His tenure came to an ugly end, but on average he was a very good manager and he gave us '04 and won again in '07, so he has my eternal gratitude for that. I didn't love Farrell the manager, but I never hated him. Plus, that '13 team was my all time favorite. Like his more recent predecessors Cora's tenure has generally been good, albeit bumpy. When he's shown the door, retrospect will likely prevent hate because winning cures all and he got his.

That leaves one name and one name alone. In my lifetime, he's not only my least favorite coach/manager of a sports team, but quite possible a top five worst human. To borrow a phrase, he's someone I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. My visceral hate for Red Sox managers begins and ends with that man. Even still, his tenure here reminds me of a song lyric I like, "Here child some poverty, it'll help you love your toys." Because my hatred for him (and my feelings towards other events I have yet to find similar room for grace for) allowed me to become invested in that '13 team in ways I wouldn't have otherwise, and that year was a ride.

Yes we don't talk about how special 2013 was. They were a lightning in bottle team but the adding of Napoli, Stephen Drew, Victorino, Gomes and others just made it so special. And the 3rd closer Uehara, being so unbeatable was the icing on the cake. And Papi just carried the team in the W.S.

 

[Dewey'sCannon]

I'm 64, so my fandom began in '67. For me, Zimmer is definitely top of the list (by a wide margin) of those I despise, followed by McNamara, Grady and Johnson. There were several others I thought were bad for various reasons (Jimmy, Bobby V, Hobson) but not as despicable as those top four who directly contributed to the 86 year drought.

 

[Blizzard of 1978]

Don't hate him, but Don Zimmer.
Had Fergie Jenkins. Traded him for peanuts in 1977. Fergie Jenkins wins 18 games in 1978. Red Sox could have used that.
Traded Bernie Carbo for nothing, so we got Beetle Bailey against Gossage.
Had Bill Lee traded for Stan Papi in 1978.
In 1979 Bill Lee won 16 games and almost the Expos made the playoffs.
1979 stats Lee and Jenkins won combined 32 games that year. Imagine how good the Red Sox who won games 91 that year would have been with Jenkins and Lee? Don Zimmer, Don't hate him, but he help blow a 14 game lead, and if in 1979 if he kept Jenkins and Lee the Red Sox might be in it that season, not to mention how he blew out Soup Campbell's arm.

 

[Dick Drago]

I should have checked the record - it was actually only 43 errors…good for a .899 fielding %. This is also an absurd number of errors.

It actually looked worse than that. Even though Scott couldn’t cover any ground any more, he was very nifty with the glove on throws to 1b, and I’m sure he saved at least the other 11 errors I had thought was part of the total.

Hobson started taking four or five steps before throwing to first, as if he knew he couldn’t throw accurately across the diamond. Looked like he wanted to actually run over to first base to get the out.

 

[Archer1979]

Hobson started taking four or five steps before throwing to first, as if he knew he couldn’t throw accurately across the diamond. Looked like he wanted to actually run over to first base to get the out.

Butch's troubles added a new medical term to the lexicon of me and my friends (new at least for us) during our daily wiffle ball tournaments... whenever we made a bad throw... Bone chips. He had no one idea where the thing was going once it left his throwing hand and I'm sure it was a physical issue.

He was also kind of a hot dog and added a degree of difficulty to otherwise routine plays. This is an exaggeration of course, but I'm not sure if he ever fielded a bunt without it resulting in fielding it one-handed and throwing off-balance to first.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Don't hate him, but Don Zimmer.
Had Fergie Jenkins. Traded him for peanuts in 1977. Fergie Jenkins wins 18 games in 1978. Red Sox could have used that.
Traded Bernie Carbo for nothing, so we got Beetle Bailey against Gossage.
Had Bill Lee traded for Stan Papi in 1978.
In 1979 Bill Lee won 16 games and almost the Expos made the playoffs.
1979 stats Lee and Jenkins won combined 32 games that year. Imagine how good the Red Sox who won games 91 that year would have been with Jenkins and Lee? Don Zimmer, Don't hate him, but he help blow a 14 game lead, and if in 1979 if he kept Jenkins and Lee the Red Sox might be in it that season, not to mention how he blew out Soup Campbell's arm.

I'm no Zimmer fan, but he wasn't the GM so I'm hesitant to blame trading Jenkins and Carbo on him. His feud with Lee probably precipitated that trade, so sure give him partial credit there. The target of your ire here should be Haywood Sullivan.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I'm no Zimmer fan, but he wasn't the GM so I'm hesitant to blame trading Jenkins and Carbo on him. His feud with Lee probably precipitated that trade, so sure give him partial credit there. The target of your ire here should be Haywood Sullivan.

Right. But I'm pretty sure Zimmer went to Sullivan and told him to trade Jenkins, Carbo and Lee basically because they were mean to him. And Sullivan said, okay.

Sullivan sucked, but Zimmer was a thin-skinned baby.

 

[jaytftwofive]

Don't hate him, but Don Zimmer.
Had Fergie Jenkins. Traded him for peanuts in 1977. Fergie Jenkins wins 18 games in 1978. Red Sox could have used that.
Traded Bernie Carbo for nothing, so we got Beetle Bailey against Gossage.
Had Bill Lee traded for Stan Papi in 1978.
In 1979 Bill Lee won 16 games and almost the Expos made the playoffs.
1979 stats Lee and Jenkins won combined 32 games that year. Imagine how good the Red Sox who won games 91 that year would have been with Jenkins and Lee? Don Zimmer, Don't hate him, but he help blow a 14 game lead, and if in 1979 if he kept Jenkins and Lee the Red Sox might be in it that season, not to mention how he blew out Soup Campbell's arm.

Dead on!! Correct!

 

[jaytftwofive]

Right. But I'm pretty sure Zimmer went to Sullivan and told him to trade Jenkins, Carbo and Lee basically because they were mean to him. And Sullivan said, okay.

Sullivan sucked, but Zimmer was a thin-skinned baby.

Yes after Jenkins was hungover in the bullpen and didn't want to come out was the last straw for Zimmer. He was determined to get rid of the Buffalo Heads. Lee, Rick Wise, Carbo, Fergie and maybe Dick Pole also? Jim Willoughby was the other one.

 

[lexrageorge]

Yes after Jenkins was hungover in the bullpen and didn't want to come out was the last straw for Zimmer. He was determined to get rid of the Buffalo Heads. Lee, Rick Wise, Carbo, Fergie and maybe Dick Pole also? Jim Willoughby was the other one.

Haywood Sullivan made the trades, but made them at Zimmer's behest. And Sullivan had a cash flow issue having taken on debt to finance the purchase of the team, so he didn't care the return he got from trading Jenkins, et al, as long as cash was involved. The only two players I would quibble with in the above list are Rick Wise (Sox got Eckersley) and Dick Pole (who was basically done). You also have to add Reggie Cleveland to the list.

Zimmer rode Bill Campbell for 140 innings in 69 relief appearances in 1977, a season after Soup pitched over 160 innings for the Twins. He was never the same, and his blown early season saves loomed large in 1978.

 

[worm0082]

Here’s a Yaz interview after the Bucky Dent game I never read before. I wasn’t around then but seeing him crumble as the ball went over the wall, then kicking the wall was everything pre 2004 me felt. https://deadspin.com/carl-yastrzemskis-silent-summer-1795757421/amp

 

[Bergs]

Here’s a Yaz interview after the Bucky Dent game I never read before. I wasn’t around then but seeing him crumble as the ball went over the wall, then kicking the wall was everything pre 2004 me felt. https://deadspin.com/carl-yastrzemskis-silent-summer-1795757421/amp

Thank you for this. Fantastic.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

I remember listening to a game in June of 2003 against the Phillies(I live in the Philly area now). Nomar went 6 for 6 but Little didn't bring in a lefty to face Thome and he homered to tie the game. I was not happy. I watched at home when the bullpen blew a 5-3 lead and Todd Pratt hit a game winning home run. I guess I have a short memory of Little. I thought the players did like him though. Not a manager to hate I guess.

Why do you hate Eddie Kasko? He was a little before my time (I'm 48) and only remember him as a decent scout. I know Louis Appricio tripped rounding third base in 72 but that was on him not Eddie. What managerial mistakes did Kasko make? I remember reading he was good with the younger players.

 

[jaytftwofive]

Why do you hate Eddie Kasko? He was a little before my time (I'm 48) and only remember him as a decent scout. I know Louis Appricio tripped rounding third base in 72 but that was on him not Eddie. What managerial mistakes did Kasko make? I remember reading he was good with the younger players.

I don't hate Kasko. I just think he wasn't such a good manager, but he wasn't the worst. I changed it to Zimmer and Bobby V. I thought the players played so much better under Darrell Johnson but he made some costly decisions in 74 and 75.

 

[Didot Fromager]

Why do you hate Eddie Kasko? He was a little before my time (I'm 48) and only remember him as a decent scout. I know Louis Appricio tripped rounding third base in 72 but that was on him not Eddie. What managerial mistakes did Kasko make? I remember reading he was good with the younger players.

I know it's irrational but I hated Kasko because I loved Dick Williams. Williams was as responsible for 1967 as anyone except maybe Yaz. Williams brought in hungry young players and ended the country-club-Yawkey-drinking buddy-atmosphere and they won the pennant!!!! Within a couple of years, the bad vibes were creeping back, Williams was fired for being too hard on the players, and Eddie Kasko was going to replace him? The same Eddie Kasko who came to us in a trade for the immortal Felix Mantilla who hit 30 home runs in 1964? This was the end of the world.

At least that how my 15 year old self saw things in 1969.

 

[jaytftwofive]

I know it's irrational but I hated Kasko because I loved Dick Williams. Williams was as responsible for 1967 as anyone except maybe Yaz. Williams brought in hungry young players and ended the country-club-Yawkey-drinking buddy-atmosphere and they won the pennant!!!! Within a couple of years, the bad vibes were creeping back, Williams was fired for being too hard on the players, and Eddie Kasko was going to replace him? The same Eddie Kasko who came to us in a trade for the immortal Felix Mantilla who hit 30 home runs in 1964? This was the end of the world.

At least that how my 15 year old self saw things in 1969.

And I've said before my Dad and others believed Yaz got Williams fired. He was going behind Williams back and whining to Yawkey about how tough he was.

 

[Dick Drago]

Zimmer and it isn’t close, tho I also hate the loathsoBobby V., Grady, and to a lesser degree Jimy. Kennedy seems like a macho dickhead, and once started Mitchell in left, Greenwell in CF, Canseco in right. Johnny Mac seemed like an insufferable prick as well, in addition to his many fuckups on the field.

The Zimmer Redsox had incredible talent-and Zim blew it all up. The list of fuckups is endless , and well detailed by posters above, who also were around for the carnage.
Fisk caught more than 150 games in both ‘77 and ‘78. In ‘78 he was obviously broken down, yet Zim kept throwing him out there-and his shoulder was wrecked the next year.

Bill Lee and Jenkins in the doghouse for their attitude, while he lets his 3baseman make 46 errors because his name was Butch and he played hard.
He would justify his moves by explaining that the talk shows would criticize him anyway. And spent most of his time at Suffolk Downs playing the horses.

I hate that he became a beloved mascot in his old age as Yankee bench coach.And he tried to sucker punch Pedro and it was considered lovable by many pundits and fans.

I’ll remember him waddling to the mound slowly, belly protruding in those old 70s jerseys, enormous wad of tobacco jutting out in his cheek. The boos would rain down in unison-I’m not sure I’ve witnessed anyone in Fenway get booed as much as Zim.

 

[jaytftwofive]

Zimmer and it isn’t close, tho I also hate the loathsoBobby V., Grady, and to a lesser degree Jimy. Kennedy seems like a macho dickhead, and once started Mitchell in left, Greenwell in CF, Canseco in right. Johnny Mac seemed like an insufferable prick as well, in addition to his many fuckups on the field.

The Zimmer Redsox had incredible talent-and Zim blew it all up. The list of fuckups is endless , and well detailed by posters above, who also were around for the carnage.
Fisk caught more than 150 games in both ‘77 and ‘78. In ‘78 he was obviously broken down, yet Zim kept throwing him out there-and his shoulder was wrecked the next year.

Bill Lee and Jenkins in the doghouse for their attitude, while he lets his 3baseman make 46 errors because his name was Butch and he played hard.
He would justify his moves by explaining that the talk shows would criticize him anyway. And spent most of his time at Suffolk Downs playing the horses.

I hate that he became a beloved mascot in his old age as Yankee bench coach.And he tried to sucker punch Pedro and it was considered lovable by many pundits and fans.

I’ll remember him waddling to the mound slowly, belly protruding in those old 70s jerseys, enormous wad of tobacco jutting out in his cheek. The boos would rain down in unison-I’m not sure I’ve witnessed anyone in Fenway get booed as much as Zim.

Amen!

 

[jaytftwofive]

The word hate is very strong, LOL. I like disdain. Other then Bobby V and Zimmah! I really don't understand the disdain for the others, even tough they made bonehead moves. Hey Jim Leyland made some in the 2013 LCS, and he's considered a great one.

 

[grepal]

For me, going in reverse order, it's:

Bobby Valentine
Grady Little
Jimy Williams
Kevin Kennedy
Butch Hobson
John McNamara

That's half of them.

I just...how can you be that bad at your job? Grady made the single worst coaching decision in the history of sport. Jimy Williams' actions were indistinguishable from someone who wanted to lose. Kevin Kennedy let Tom Gordon throw like three hundred pitches a game. Butch Hobson was just fucking incompetent. And John McNamara can just fuck off right into the sun.

None, I didn't enjoy the Valentine year. It was even less enjoyable than the covid year for me. The covid year, I knew the Sox were a lost cause. I watched every game, but I knew it was futile.

 

[Humphrey]

Come to think of it I have no real disdain (I don't like the word hate, sorry) for Kasko, even though I didn't think he was that good a manager. So it's Zimmer and Bobby V for me. And John Farrell for turning that team around should have a plaque or something. 2013 was so fantastic, surprising and emotional. Worst to first. When they beat the Tigers in Game 6 I almost had tears of joy. Alright I'm biased because that's my name also.

Have the same feeling for Kasko I have for Houk; they were the face of the organization's malaise during the years they were there. The real blame for the so-so teams they had in 1970-73 and 1981-84 lay elsewhere. Kasko had a great career afterwards in the front office and never really wanted the manager's job.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

The word hate is very strong, LOL. I like disdain. Other then Bobby V and Zimmah! I really don't understand the disdain for the others, even tough they made bonehead moves. Hey Jim Leyland made some in the 2013 LCS, and he's considered a great one.

I think "hate" here is understood as "sports hate". I don't actually hate Jimy Williams for being a dunce and ruining a bunch of peak Pedro Martinez starts. I don't actually hate Grady Little for being a butthead in the biggest possible game of our lives. I don't actually hate McNamara or Valentine or Hobson or Kerrigan or Kennedy. Mostly because I don't know those men and I bet that if I did meet them, I'd probably kinda like them.

But I do sports hate them from afar.

 

[jaytftwofive]

I think "hate" here is understood as "sports hate". I don't actually hate Jimy Williams for being a dunce and ruining a bunch of peak Pedro Martinez starts. I don't actually hate Grady Little for being a butthead in the biggest possible game of our lives. I don't actually hate McNamara or Valentine or Hobson or Kerrigan or Kennedy. Mostly because I don't know those men and I bet that if I did meet them, I'd probably kinda like them.

But I do sports hate them from afar.

Got it!

 

[jaytftwofive]

Have the same feeling for Kasko I have for Houk; they were the face of the organization's malaise during the years they were there. The real blame for the so-so teams they had in 1970-73 and 1981-84 lay elsewhere. Kasko had a great career afterwards in the front office and never really wanted the manager's job.

I thought Ralph Houk was a very good manager. Yaz and other veteran players thought he was very good. And he resigned and didn't get fired which is unusual. 1982 I have to say was an exiting first half being in first place for much of the year. 89 wins eventually 3rd place 5 games behind Brewers. They had a really good bullpen for most of the year. I went to a game at MFY Stadium in June when Mark Clear had Ken Griffey Sr. 0 and 2 and fouling off pitches and eventually hit a go ahead home run. But that did not happen to Clear most of that year.

 

[Dewey'sCannon]

I thought Ralph Houk was a very good manager. Yaz and other veteran players thought he was very good. And he resigned and didn't get fired which is unusual. 1982 I have to say was an exiting first half being in first place for much of the year. 89 wins eventually 3rd place 5 games behind Brewers. They had a really good bullpen for most of the year. I went to a game at MFY Stadium in June when Mark Clear had Ken Griffey Sr. 0 and 2 and fouling off pitches and eventually hit a go ahead home run. But that did not happen to Clear most of that year.

Wow, Mark Clear - the Matt Barnes of his day. I always thought that Clear's curveball broke so much that the umps had a hard time calling it, and he lost a lot of strikes that he deserved to have called. It seemed like the pitch would come in at the hitter's eyes, and it would get caught shin-high but somehow it wasn't a strike - as if it didn't have to cross through the strike zone to get from point A to point B. I think that may have been the beginning of my long career of screaming "How was that not a strike??" at the tv.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

Maybe this isn't the right thread for this, but it is about incompetent Red Sox management of the past.
On Bill James' site, he had this exchange with a member:

"With the Red Sox, was the GM given an annual budget number, or did the moneymen provide some sort of graduated scale so that X dollars could be paid over Y years, or X-1 paid out over Y+2 years?
Asked by: DanaKing

​

Answered: 12/13/2022

The GM operated with like six or eight different budgets; I never understood the ins and outs of them. There was a cash-flow budget, a luxury-tax budget, a present-value budget, etc. I don't know how many budgets there were; I think they added a new one every couple of years.

When I worked with agents (on behalf of players) in the late 1970s and through most of the 1980s, the agents all used the concept of the present value of money; it was a term that was heard every day, a term that was integral to every negotiation. At that time (starting in the Carter administration). . .at that time there was raging inflation, almost double-digit inflation, so the present value of money was a big deal.

However, the PLAYERS did not always understand the present value of money, and this was fairly commonly used as a dodge to meet the players expectations. In other words, players place themselves in the market relative to similar players. Shortstop100 gets $30 million over 4 years (1980s dollars). . .Shorstop100 gets $30 million over 4 years. SHortstop90 believes that he is every bit as good as Shortstop100, and he refuses to sign for less than Shortstop100 got. So you make a deal. . . Shorttop90 signs for $32 million over 7 years, so you can tell your clent (Shortstop90) that is making more than Shortstop100, although in reality the future value of the $32 million is less than the future value of the $30 million.

When I joined the Red Sox, more than 10 years later, I was sort of shocked to learn that they had been operating without a budget. I probably should not tell you this, but it's been 20 years, so maybe it should get out. The ex-GM literally did not know how much money he had committed the organization to spend in 2005 or 2006 or any other future year. He hadn't kept track of it. He was operating on blind faith that the organization would find the money somewhere.

It's not clear who the ex-GM was-- Mike Port was the interim in 2002 after Duquette was fired, so maybe him? Seems like an interim would be less concerned with the future expenses than someone with the full-time job.

His response also gives some interesting insight into the team's budgets-- I never knew that there were that many different budgets that the club works with, but it makes sense that there must be.

 

[BaseballJones]

Maybe the GM didn't know, but you'd have to think that ownership - being otherwise pretty smart businessmen - would have some bean counter accounting people very much on the ball there, knowing exactly how much is being spent/committed each year. I can't imagine any business of that magnitude having no idea what their projected expenses were.

 

[Yo La Tengo]

Jackson's interview at Rickwood Field cast McNamara in a very sympathetic light, which is not how I usually view him:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enxNcYWeoaA

 

[Yo La Tengo]

Duncan, McNamara, and Jackson in 1967 at Rickwood Field.

 

[Ale Xander]

Just Valentine and Johnny Mac as of Wednesday but Reggie Jackson gave a glowing account of Mac helping him with race issues that I don’t really hate him anymore

Don’t hate Grady at all. He made one mistake really and Imay have done the same thing.

Jimy was awesome in his own way

Hobson was meh

I kind of liked Kennedy too

I hate Larussa much more then any non-BV RS manager

edit: beaten by Yo La Tengo

 

[reggiecleveland]

McNamara leaving Buckner in was unforgivable. Same with Grady and Pedro. After those moves I did hate those guys.
Bobby V was annoying but it seemed so temporary.

 

[Eric1984]

I'll never forgive Grady for leaving Pedro in but I don't hate the guy. I don't hate people just for incompetence and he (like Jimy) was more of a boob than a force for evil. I don't hate a manager unless there's incompetence plus arrogance, obnoxiousness or malevolence. Sox managers from my lifetime that I actually hate:

Bobby Valentine
Kevin Kennedy
John McNamara
Don Zimmer

 

[HfxBob]

As far as bad manageriaI decisions that clearly, directly impacted the outcome of a season, Little's stands alone.

When it happened I was more dazed than anything. It wasn't until later that I learned about the pre-game discussion with Theo about getting Pedro out at 105 pitches no matter what, and about what Grady said to Pedro, leading him to think he'd only be facing one or two more batters, that I realized how badly, how unforgivably, Little had screwed the pooch.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

As far as bad manageriaI decisions that clearly, directly impacted the outcome of a season, Little's stands alone.

I'm not sure about that. McNamara not putting Stapleton in for Buckner was sort of key as well.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

I'll never forgive Grady for leaving Pedro in but I don't hate the guy. I don't hate people just for incompetence and he (like Jimy) was more of a boob than a force for evil. I don't hate a manager unless there's incompetence plus arrogance, obnoxiousness or malevolence. Sox managers from my lifetime that I actually hate:

Bobby Valentine
Kevin Kennedy
John McNamara
Don Zimmer

What did Kevin Kennedy do to earn your hatred? Sox won the East his first year in 95 and then won 86 I think his second year and then he was gone. The 95 team I think was never going to beat Cleveland which went 100 -44 that year. So in terms of on field performance, I find his managerial record acceptable. Certainly been worse. Did the players hate him? I honestly can't remember. I think Clemens departure had more to do with Doquette than Kennedy.

 

[Eric1984]

What did Kevin Kennedy do to earn your hatred? Sox won the East his first year in 95 and then won 86 I think his second year and then he was gone. The 95 team I think was never going to beat Cleveland which went 100 -44 that year. So in terms of on field performance, I find his managerial record acceptable. Certainly been worse. Did the players hate him? I honestly can't remember. I think Clemens departure had more to do with Doquette than Kennedy.

I acknowledge it’s totally irrational but there was something about the vibe he gave off that just made me dislike him from day 1. Both here and then later on ESPN. I just couldn’t stand him. I wish Grady had never managed the team and I’ll never get over him leaving Pedro in and he was a moron who looked and sounded like he just fell off the turnip truck but sometimes someone just rubs you the wrong way and Kennedy did that for me.