How long will Chaim last?

When will FSG see the light and fire this guy?


  • Total voters
    438
Status
Not open for further replies.

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,866
How many times do we need to say the same thing before you will hear it? They are focusing on rebuilding the farm system. Of course he stocked the major league team, but it was done with a bunch of short term commitments and mostly inexpensive building blocks. Seriously, we've been having the same conversation for like 8 months. If you don't like what they're doing, great, but it's pretty clear what they're doing, which means he's probably not going to be judged for the things you want him to be judged for.
It’s also pretty clear that Chaim is capable of building up the farm while competing at the MLB level since he literally just did it 2 years ago. Nobody expects ALCS every year but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect better than the 2022-2023 results while maintaining the integrity of the farm development. We don’t have to live in such a binary world.
 

MtPleasant Paul

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 28, 2015
169
So once in the last four years have they been outside the top 6 in payroll. They're obviously not the BIGGEST spenders, but they're definitely not a small market team. I think the idea was: if Bloom (coming from the Tampa lineage) can do great things with a small budget, how great would he be with OUR budget
But THIS is the year they have been out of the top six, dropping from 6 to 15 from roughly 207 mill last year to 173 mill this year. And why? If the goal is to stay under the luxury tax which was increased to $230 mill this year, shouldn't the payroll have gone up? If the goal is to build through the farm system, WHERE THE COST OF ACQUIRING PLAYERS THROUGH THE DRAFT AND IFA HAS NOW BEEN EFFECTIVELY CONTROLLED BY MLB, why must the major league payroll be slashed?

Why was Eovaldi money "not in the budget" as one poster claimed? He signed a $32 million two year contract with a $20 million one year option if he pitches 300 innings. Wacha signed a four year deal which guaranteed him $26,500,000. Neither contract was a Salesian or DeGrom style deal. The Sox could have had Eovaldi and Wacha for a net cost this year of $13,500,000 after the Kluber contract is subtracted. That would have brought the 2023 payroll up to about $187,000,000. And they should have been spending way beyond that.

I have always been a "four WS in 14 years" John Henry acolyte, but when I look at these numbers I wonder if Abraham and Shaughnessy are right about the cheap Red Sox and if the Henryphobes on the web might have something when they claim that Henry and FSG are chortling all the way to the bank.
 

Tony Pena's Gas Cloud

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 12, 2019
411
But THIS is the year they have been out of the top six, dropping from 6 to 15 from roughly 207 mill last year to 173 mill this year. And why? If the goal is to stay under the luxury tax which was increased to $230 mill this year, shouldn't the payroll have gone up? If the goal is to build through the farm system, WHERE THE COST OF ACQUIRING PLAYERS THROUGH THE DRAFT AND IFA HAS NOW BEEN EFFECTIVELY CONTROLLED BY MLB, why must the major league payroll be slashed?

Why was Eovaldi money "not in the budget" as one poster claimed? He signed a $32 million two year contract with a $20 million one year option if he pitches 300 innings. Wacha signed a four year deal which guaranteed him $26,500,000. Neither contract was a Salesian or DeGrom style deal. The Sox could have had Eovaldi and Wacha for a net cost this year of $13,500,000 after the Kluber contract is subtracted. That would have brought the 2023 payroll up to about $187,000,000. And they should have been spending way beyond that.

I have always been a "four WS in 14 years" John Henry acolyte, but when I look at these numbers I wonder if Abraham and Shaughnessy are right about the cheap Red Sox and if the Henryphobes on the web might have something when they claim that Henry and FSG are chortling all the way to the bank.
What do you not understand that Eovaldi turned down a reasonable offer from the Sox? He. Turned. It. Down. So rather than sitting with their thumbs up their asses, they pivoted to spending on Yoshida, Jansen, and Martin. When Eovaldi's agent sheepishly returned to accept the offer, money had already been committed to those three players AND there were ongoing negotiations with Devers for an extension. They moved on, which any good front office would have done.

Wacha was unclaimed until mid-February by all 30 teams, and even then it took an oddball four year deal. Singling out the Red Sox for not offering him a contract is ridiculous.

A) You have no idea what either pitcher would have demanded to pitch in Boston. You know, because the shitty weather, demanding fans, trolling media, antiquated facilities, high taxes, and an offense-friendly park are HUGE draws compared to sunny San Diego and climate-controlled Texas.
B) I love this assumption that because a player is doing well with one team, that success automatically transfers seamlessly to another team. Yes, I'm sure they'd be racking up wins and innings with the stellar Sox defense behind them and a lineup that was 15 for its last 99 with RISP heading into tonight.

Both of those moves were absolutely defensible at the time, as was signing one year of Kluber, who pitched 40 more innings, had a lower FIP, and had more quality starts than either of them in '22. Stop using hindsight to try to bolster your argument.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,848
Not to take anything away from the accomplishments of the 2021 team, but the reason they got so close to the WS is because Kiké magically turned into Manny Ramirez in that post season.
And so what? What does this have to do with any? You’re going to penalize Chaim and take away that year because Kiké got on a hot streak?
That’s the f’in beauty of playoff baseball! Mike Trout turns into a legend. Wade Boggs can’t get a hit. Roger Clemens gets outdueled by…. Who?
JBJ goes on a Barry Bonds run.
so what if he lucked out on the roster and got unexpected good performances? That happens.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,529
Maine
What do you not understand that Eovaldi turned down a reasonable offer from the Sox? He. Turned. It. Down. So rather than sitting with their thumbs up their asses, they pivoted to spending on Yoshida, Jansen, and Martin. When Eovaldi's agent sheepishly returned to accept the offer, money had already been committed to those three players AND there were ongoing negotiations with Devers for an extension. They moved on, which any good front office would have done.

Wacha was unclaimed until mid-February by all 30 teams, and even then it took an oddball four year deal. Singling out the Red Sox for not offering him a contract is ridiculous.

A) You have no idea what either pitcher would have demanded to pitch in Boston. You know, because the shitty weather, demanding fans, trolling media, antiquated facilities, high taxes, and an offense-friendly park are HUGE draws compared to sunny San Diego and climate-controlled Texas.
B) I love this assumption that because a player is doing well with one team, that success automatically transfers seamlessly to another team. Yes, I'm sure they'd be racking up wins and innings with the stellar Sox defense behind them and a lineup that was 15 for its last 99 with RISP heading into tonight.

Both of those moves were absolutely defensible at the time, as was signing one year of Kluber, who pitched 40 more innings, had a lower FIP, and had more quality starts than either of them in '22. Stop using hindsight to try to bolster your argument.
Regarding Wacha, we don't know that they didn't offer a contract. For all we know, they made him a "reasonable" offer just like they did with Eovaldi. And for all we know, he turned it down or decided to shop around first.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Had Eovaldi or Wacha been willing to accept a deal from the Red Sox in November/early December that was exactly the same as what they eventually got, I bet they're in a Red Sox uniform right now. But they misread their markets and missed their chance to stay (assuming there was some sort of offer to Wacha). It's not all about the GM here.
 

Tony Pena's Gas Cloud

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 12, 2019
411
Regarding Wacha, we don't know that they didn't offer a contract. For all we know, they made him a "reasonable" offer just like they did with Eovaldi. And for all we know, he turned it down or decided to shop around first.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Had Eovaldi or Wacha been willing to accept a deal from the Red Sox in November/early December that was exactly the same as what they eventually got, I bet they're in a Red Sox uniform right now. But they misread their markets and missed their chance to stay (assuming there was some sort of offer to Wacha). It's not all about the GM here.
Which was exactly my point to the OP. Players have the final say on where they sign and choose to be employed.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
6,212
Not sure where your 173 number comes from, Red Sox Payroll twitter has them at 227: View: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zPx_cKCQ7TQjab2kPM4zIhEFSDxrTpLLIEZr2xh5E8g/edit?usp=drivesdk


But THIS is the year they have been out of the top six, dropping from 6 to 15 from roughly 207 mill last year to 173 mill this year. And why? If the goal is to stay under the luxury tax which was increased to $230 mill this year, shouldn't the payroll have gone up? If the goal is to build through the farm system, WHERE THE COST OF ACQUIRING PLAYERS THROUGH THE DRAFT AND IFA HAS NOW BEEN EFFECTIVELY CONTROLLED BY MLB, why must the major league payroll be slashed?

Why was Eovaldi money "not in the budget" as one poster claimed? He signed a $32 million two year contract with a $20 million one year option if he pitches 300 innings. Wacha signed a four year deal which guaranteed him $26,500,000. Neither contract was a Salesian or DeGrom style deal. The Sox could have had Eovaldi and Wacha for a net cost this year of $13,500,000 after the Kluber contract is subtracted. That would have brought the 2023 payroll up to about $187,000,000. And they should have been spending way beyond that.

I have always been a "four WS in 14 years" John Henry acolyte, but when I look at these numbers I wonder if Abraham and Shaughnessy are right about the cheap Red Sox and if the Henryphobes on the web might have something when they claim that Henry and FSG are chortling all the way to the bank.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,955
, and that the team was committed to rebuild and cut payroll while staying competitive (which they have largely done, I think).
If being "competitive" means competing for a playoff spot you are correct Bloom has largely done that.

If, as some posters obviously feel, being "competitive" means competing for a championship, well the number of GMs who can do all three (rebuild farm system, cut payroll, and compete for a championship) is vanishingly small and is IMO not a realistic goal for any team. And I'm sure ownership knows this.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,674
Chicago, IL
If being "competitive" means competing for a playoff spot you are correct Bloom has largely done that.

If, as some posters obviously feel, being "competitive" means competing for a championship, well the number of GMs who can do all three (rebuild farm system, cut payroll, and compete for a championship) is vanishingly small and is IMO not a realistic goal for any team. And I'm sure ownership knows this.
I guess the question then is: why can't the Red Sox, one of the most historically vaunted organizations in baseball (and one of the richest), identify and hire one of those GMs?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,955
I guess the question then is: why can't the Red Sox, one of the most historically vaunted organizations in baseball (and one of the richest), identify and hire one of those GMs?
Money doesn't matter as you can only have one GM at a time.

It's entirely possible finding this hypothetical GM is a lot like trying to find Bigfoot.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
8,209
Boston, MA
2020 very bad
2021 good (or very good factoring in postseason)
2022 bad
2023 bad (so far)
2022 ended bad, but was fun up until the trade deadline when the wheels fell off. And this year's team was fun to watch until the West Coast trip when the bats fell asleep. That's what all the complaining about this year's team really comes down to. The pitching and defense haven't been great, but over the last month they've been a tick better than average at preventing runs. It's the offense that was scoring under 3 per game that's the problem. When a team goes down by 3 and the deficit seems insurmountable, it's not fun to watch. When they have a 1 run lead in the middle innings and the bullpen has to be perfect, it's not fun to watch. But if they start hitting again, they'll be more entertaining even if they don't win a ton more games.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,529
Maine
If being "competitive" means competing for a playoff spot you are correct Bloom has largely done that.

If, as some posters obviously feel, being "competitive" means competing for a championship, well the number of GMs who can do all three (rebuild farm system, cut payroll, and compete for a championship) is vanishingly small and is IMO not a realistic goal for any team. And I'm sure ownership knows this.
And the thing is, being competitive for a playoff spot can be good enough to compete for a championship. The Sox squeaked into the playoffs in 2021 and got within two games of the World Series. The Phillies squeaked into the playoffs last year and came within two games of winning a title. It's not even limited to baseball (see the Panthers and the Heat making the finals from the 8 seed). Not every championship contending team is built to dominate from the jump. It certainly helps most of the time, but getting into the dance is step one.

I guess the question then is: why can't the Red Sox, one of the most historically vaunted organizations in baseball (and one of the richest), identify and hire one of those GMs?
Doesn't it stand to reason that if those GMs exist, they're gainfully employed in that role elsewhere because of their skill set? Wouldn't guys with that proven skill set be the ones who have been in their jobs the longest? I mean, being able to build/maintain a bountiful farm system, maintain payroll at a reasonable level (some ups, some downs), and consistently compete would tend to create job security, no? Is there a way to identify such a GM before he actually does it? Isn't the idea to try and find the next Brian Cashman or the next Andrew Friedman because those guys can't be had?
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,891
Hingham, MA
If being "competitive" means competing for a playoff spot you are correct Bloom has largely done that.

If, as some posters obviously feel, being "competitive" means competing for a championship, well the number of GMs who can do all three (rebuild farm system, cut payroll, and compete for a championship) is vanishingly small and is IMO not a realistic goal for any team. And I'm sure ownership knows this.
Wait what?
2020 - not competitive
2021 - ALCS, competitive
2022 - wheels fell off in JUNE, were not remotely competitive for a playoff spot after the ASB. There is no world in which the 2022 Red Sox were competing for a playoff spot
2023 - already 5 games out of the WC spot, looking like a similar situation to last year where they don't play a meaningful game in the 2nd half of the year

The Sox have played 453 regular season games under Bloom. They have been under .500 for 184 of those games. That is over 40%. Over 40% of the time they've been a losing team under Chaim Bloom.

I'd argue that for the majority of Bloom's tenure, they have NOT been competitive.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,891
Hingham, MA
2022 ended bad, but was fun up until the trade deadline when the wheels fell off. And this year's team was fun to watch until the West Coast trip when the bats fell asleep. That's what all the complaining about this year's team really comes down to. The pitching and defense haven't been great, but over the last month they've been a tick better than average at preventing runs. It's the offense that was scoring under 3 per game that's the problem. When a team goes down by 3 and the deficit seems insurmountable, it's not fun to watch. When they have a 1 run lead in the middle innings and the bullpen has to be perfect, it's not fun to watch. But if they start hitting again, they'll be more entertaining even if they don't win a ton more games.
False, the wheels fell off late June. They went 7-19 in July!
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
The Sox have played 453 regular season games under Bloom. They have been under .500 for 184 of those games. That is over 40%. Over 40% of the time they've been a losing team under Chaim Bloom.

I'd argue that for the majority of Bloom's tenure, they have NOT been competitive.
I have no problem with well supported Chaim Chate, but when someone claims that 40% is a majority I have to start asking questions about math scholarship in this country.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
52,316
If being "competitive" means competing for a playoff spot you are correct Bloom has largely done that.

If, as some posters obviously feel, being "competitive" means competing for a championship, well the number of GMs who can do all three (rebuild farm system, cut payroll, and compete for a championship) is vanishingly small and is IMO not a realistic goal for any team. And I'm sure ownership knows this.
It’s a bit like the “Cheap, Fast, Good—pick two” axiom.

Only the GMs that are allowed lots of runway ever really last long enough to have a chance to execute all of those goals and it usually requires nailing multiple draft picks/player dev wins over a number of years and often with players originally acquired by the previous GM AND having a relatively clean salary sheet.

I know people love to fawn over Cashman for doing that kind of rebuild but shit we have WON 2 championships since the last time his team has even been in the WS. In large part because it’s super freaking hard.

I do wish we could have experienced the last few years in an alternate universe without $30mil a year in immovable dead weight. Any conversation about payroll is going to be skewed against Chaim because of that.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,891
Hingham, MA
I have no problem with well supported Chaim Chate, but when someone claims that 40% is a majority I have to start asking questions about math scholarship in this country.
Competitive and being at or above .500 are not necessarily the same thing. Last year they were still at or above .500 for most of July while they were going 7-19.

They're 8-15 in their last 23, but have been below .500 for only 5 of those games.

Etc.
 

MakMan44

stole corsi's dream
SoSH Member
Aug 22, 2009
19,363
I don't know how much was owner dictated in 2022, but the trade deadline moves were non-committal.

I would hope that Bloom won't take the same approach this season if they continue to be non-competative.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,866
2022 ended bad, but was fun up until the trade deadline when the wheels fell off. And this year's team was fun to watch until the West Coast trip when the bats fell asleep. That's what all the complaining about this year's team really comes down to. The pitching and defense haven't been great, but over the last month they've been a tick better than average at preventing runs. It's the offense that was scoring under 3 per game that's the problem. When a team goes down by 3 and the deficit seems insurmountable, it's not fun to watch. When they have a 1 run lead in the middle innings and the bullpen has to be perfect, it's not fun to watch. But if they start hitting again, they'll be more entertaining even if they don't win a ton more games.
I was merely commenting on the win/loss records for each season, with 2023 obviously still being in progress. I wholeheartedly agree that the offense has been the recent problem and I sure am glad that Yoshida has been on the "good" side of the ledger. But even with his success, we don't have enough there. This lineup is very vulnerable whenever Devers slumps. We really need some more consistent power hitting. Realistically, that is going to have to come from Casas, Duvall, and hopefully Story whenever he returns. I feel like we're fine with the Verdugo/Yoshida/Turner table setting. But someone has to drive them in.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Competitive and being at or above .500 are not necessarily the same thing. Last year they were still at or above .500 for most of July while they were going 7-19.

They're 8-15 in their last 23, but have been below .500 for only 5 of those games.

Etc.
With extra wild cards, yes, I think a team is still competitive at a few games above .500

Look at the Miami Heat. Would you consider them “competitive” when they were four games over .500 with two weeks or so left in the season?
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
47,022
With extra wild cards, yes, I think a team is still competitive at a few games above .500

Look at the Miami Heat. Would you consider them “competitive” when they were four games over .500 with two weeks or so left in the season?
On the other end. look at the dodgers last year. Had an all time great regular season. But got bounced early in the playoffs. So nobody really cares about that all time great regular season.

in other words. Anything can happen in th playoffs
 
Last edited:

TFisNEXT

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
12,615
Offense has been snake-bit recently, bit they are still 8th in the majors in OPS and 7th in runs scored despite having played a very difficult schedule against most of the top pitching teams. On a high level, the offense is not the problem...it's been the pitching and defense.

There's some optimism looking under the hood at the pitching where despite being 22nd in the majors in ERA, they are 17th in FIP and 13th in xFIP, so hopefully some positive regression is in store (and it seems to be happening recently with a lot of good starts from the rotation).
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,891
Hingham, MA
With extra wild cards, yes, I think a team is still competitive at a few games above .500

Look at the Miami Heat. Would you consider them “competitive” when they were four games over .500 with two weeks or so left in the season?
They were in a playoff position all season, so yes.

For MLB, it does partially depend when in the season. For instance the Sox were 59-59 last year on August 17. The WC3 team was 62-54 at that time. So the Sox were 4 games back (with a few teams in between them and WC3). Is that competitive? At that time they had the 10th best record in the AL.
 

jezza1918

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
2,995
South Dartmouth, MA
They were in a playoff position all season, so yes.

For MLB, it does partially depend when in the season. For instance the Sox were 59-59 last year on August 17. The WC3 team was 62-54 at that time. So the Sox were 4 games back (with a few teams in between them and WC3). Is that competitive? At that time they had the 10th best record in the AL.
It's tough because I see that argument (in that they werent playing good baseball by then), but at the same time I define "competitive" during the course of the regular season as "is this game meaningful?" And Id say that yes, at 4 games back with 44 games to go is meaningful baseball.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Well yeah, isn't that a big reason MLB added the extra wild card, to keep more teams "in it" through the majority of the season?
Exactly. And the Heat were out of the playoff picture and did ok. While there was a team in Boston that was a buzzsaw all year and then bombed out in the first round.

As long as they have a shot at the playoffs, I consider that to be competitive. Wild Card teams win titles.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,955
And the thing is, being competitive for a playoff spot can be good enough to compete for a championship. The Sox squeaked into the playoffs in 2021 and got within two games of the World Series. The Phillies squeaked into the playoffs last year and came within two games of winning a title. It's not even limited to baseball (see the Panthers and the Heat making the finals from the 8 seed). Not every championship contending team is built to dominate from the jump. It certainly helps most of the time, but getting into the dance is step one.
Agreed that almost anything can happen in a playoff but as Tims4Wins mentions, I think most of us would make a distinction between a .500 team that is "competing" for the last wild card and a championship caliber team. Not saying that a team can't be both - particularly if they suffer injuries - but there also can be a distinction.

Maybe I should have said that yes, it's possible to have a rebuild, a slashed payroll and a team "competing" for the last wild card spot but it's really hard (and may not be possible) a rebuild, a slashed payroll and a team "competing" to win 95+ games.

It’s a bit like the “Cheap, Fast, Good—pick two” axiom.

Only the GMs that are allowed lots of runway ever really last long enough to have a chance to execute all of those goals and it usually requires nailing multiple draft picks/player dev wins over a number of years and often with players originally acquired by the previous GM AND having a relatively clean salary sheet.

I know people love to fawn over Cashman for doing that kind of rebuild but shit we have WON 2 championships since the last time his team has even been in the WS. In large part because it’s super freaking hard.

I do wish we could have experienced the last few years in an alternate universe without $30mil a year in immovable dead weight. Any conversation about payroll is going to be skewed against Chaim because of that.
Yes to "Cheap / Fast / Good"; the one I like to use (not as applicable) is "low interest rates / full employment / low debt levels". :)

The other thing that gets mentioned around here every so often but I don't think gets enough respect is that team building these days is much tougher than when (for example) Theo's main team building stratgey was to throw millions at over-slot guys and see who would produce. Great strategy at the time. But nowadays, there aren't a lot of competitive advantages* in team building outside of losing a lot of games. Which goes back to your trilemma.

*I recognize that it looks like LAD and TB and HOU and some other teams seem to have mastered the art of development by churning out prospect after prospect; I haven't seen anything that suggests that those teams are doing something radically different than other teams but it will be interesting to see if there is a "secret sauce" to development they have found. I'll note that if there is a "secret sauce," Chaim was the guy who was supposed to bring it to BOS (just like Mike Elias was supposed to bring it to BAL); I will be super interested in learning over the next decade or so whether these teams really did develop a skill at developing prospects or whether they just got super lucky.
 

jezza1918

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
2,995
South Dartmouth, MA
Yeah, being competitive is a pretty low bar to clear.
Agreed, but it seemed like this particular digression was about how much competitive baseball the sox have played under Bloom. The MLB has made it easier to be competitive and for more games to be meaningful...so I think this is a case where two things can be true: A lot of Red Sox baseball under Bloom hasn't been fun or good to watch, but a lot of it is still competitive/meaningful.
 

donutogre

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
3,280
Philadelphia
2022 ended bad, but was fun up until the trade deadline when the wheels fell off. And this year's team was fun to watch until the West Coast trip when the bats fell asleep. That's what all the complaining about this year's team really comes down to. The pitching and defense haven't been great, but over the last month they've been a tick better than average at preventing runs. It's the offense that was scoring under 3 per game that's the problem. When a team goes down by 3 and the deficit seems insurmountable, it's not fun to watch. When they have a 1 run lead in the middle innings and the bullpen has to be perfect, it's not fun to watch. But if they start hitting again, they'll be more entertaining even if they don't win a ton more games.
I get what you're saying, but let's not forget that the 2022 team was a hideous 11-20 before getting hot for a little bit. And that team played the same dumb baseball with poor defense and mediocre pitching that we're seeing this year. There have been flashes when things have come together, but I'd push back pretty hard on anyone saying the last 1.5 seasons have been fun to watch.

Don't get me wrong, there are fun things! Baseball is fun, I'm really enjoying Yoshida, I'm glad Devers is signed despite his rough year so far, and it's cool that Bello and Whitlock are showing signs of being reliable to very good rotation pieces (maybe more). But watching guys playing bad defense out of position and blowing games to some relatively weak opponents is not fun. 16-17 at home is not fun.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
72,609
From an opposing fan's perspective, I'd say that Bloom's tenure so far has probably been a B, not fantastic and not terrible.

The issue that IMO isn't mentioned enough, though, is that not only did he come into a very difficult situation, but when he was hired (Oct 2019), I don't think it was clear just how loaded the division would be going forward. The Orioles specifically have seemingly pulled off a fantastic rebuild, tied for the second best record in MLB, still with tons of young talent on the way, and with almost no financial commitments going forward yet. This is actually where I think Henry/Bloom fell down, because I think if they had realized what a powerhouse BAL was turning into (no one really did back then), they would have abandoned the two prong approach of 'stay competitive while rebuilding' and been much more likely to go for the full-on rebuild, no matter how upset that made part of the fan base.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,891
Hingham, MA
Exactly. And the Heat were out of the playoff picture and did ok.
When were the heat out of the playoff picture? The last date they didn't lead their division outright was December 27, when they were 17-17 and tied for the lead. The last time they were more than a game back of the division lead was December 11.
Agreed, but it seemed like this particular digression was about how much competitive baseball the sox have played under Bloom. The MLB has made it easier to be competitive and for more games to be meaningful...so I think this is a case where two things can be true: A lot of Red Sox baseball under Bloom hasn't been fun or good to watch, but a lot of it is still competitive/meaningful.
It feels like Bloom and/or the ownership have used the 3rd WC as a way to promote the team as being competitive, instead of truly trying to compete by virtue of having a legitimate contender.
I get what you're saying, but let's not forget that the 2022 team was a hideous 11-20 before getting hot for a little bit. And that team played the same dumb baseball with poor defense and mediocre pitching that we're seeing this year. There have been flashes when things have come together, but I'd push back pretty hard on anyone saying the last 1.5 seasons have been fun to watch.

Don't get me wrong, there are fun things! Baseball is fun, I'm really enjoying Yoshida, I'm glad Devers is signed despite his rough year so far, and it's cool that Bello and Whitlock are showing signs of being reliable to very good rotation pieces (maybe more). But watching guys playing bad defense out of position and blowing games to some relatively weak opponents is not fun. 16-17 at home is not fun.
Exactly. They were unwatchable in 2020. They were fun in 2021. They were unwatchable for the first month+ last year, then fun for about 6 weeks, and then a trainwreck for the rest of the year.

This year they were fun to watch for a few weeks from late April into mid-May.

There's just been LOT of time during this era when they haven't been fun to watch.
 

jezza1918

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
2,995
South Dartmouth, MA
When were the heat out of the playoff picture?
It feels like Bloom and/or the ownership have used the 3rd WC as a way to promote the team as being competitive, instead of truly trying to compete by virtue of having a legitimate contender.

Exactly. They were unwatchable in 2020. They were fun in 2021. They were unwatchable for the first month+ last year, then fun for about 6 weeks, and then a trainwreck for the rest of the year.

This year they were fun to watch for a few weeks from late April into mid-May.

There's just been LOT of time during this era when they haven't been fun to watch.
Yeah I dont disagree, but the fact remains that by virtue of that 3rd WC it keeps them (and other middling teams) competitive for longer. Again, maybe not fun or actually good, but a large majority of the games remain meaningful.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,891
Hingham, MA
Yeah I dont disagree, but the fact remains that by virtue of that 3rd WC it keeps them (and other middling teams) competitive for longer. Again, maybe not fun or actually good, but a large majority of the games remain meaningful.
Technically meaningful, but was anyone really watching in mid-August last year because they were only 4 games back of the 3rd WC?
 

jezza1918

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
2,995
South Dartmouth, MA
Technically meaningful, but was anyone really watching in mid-August last year because they were only 4 games back of the 3rd WC?
I was. I typically start tuning out of any sport once the team is firmly out of the playoff race. And will tune back in for certain events - eg if they are out of it on Sept 1 this year, but Mayer gets called up Ill try to watch his at bats.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,955
Agreed, but it seemed like this particular digression was about how much competitive baseball the sox have played under Bloom. The MLB has made it easier to be competitive and for more games to be meaningful...so I think this is a case where two things can be true: A lot of Red Sox baseball under Bloom hasn't been fun or good to watch, but a lot of it is still competitive/meaningful.
The digression was about what we think Chaim's job description was/is. In my view, Chaim's first priority was to slash payroll. Check. He was also hired to rebuild the farm system and hopefully start a sustainable pipeline of talent. Jury is still out on this but he has certainly focused a lot of his efforts on this and I don't think anyone can yet say unequivocally that he's failed at this.

Finally, if ownership thought Chaim would be churning out 90 win seasons while doing the first two, I suspect his seat is very hot right now. But I also suspect that's a pretty unrealistic expectation and Chaim is too smart to walk into a situation like that.
 

jezza1918

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
2,995
South Dartmouth, MA
The digression was about what we think Chaim's job description was/is. In my view, Chaim's first priority was to slash payroll. Check. He was also hired to rebuild the farm system and hopefully start a sustainable pipeline of talent. Jury is still out on this but he has certainly focused a lot of his efforts on this and I don't think anyone can yet say unequivocally that he's failed at this.

Finally, if ownership thought Chaim would be churning out 90 win seasons while doing the first two, I suspect his seat is very hot right now. But I also suspect that's a pretty unrealistic expectation and Chaim is too smart to walk into a situation like that.
Got it on the digression...guess I didnt read far enough back. Appreciate the explanation and fwiw 100% agree with your post.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
When were the heat out of the playoff picture? The last date they didn't lead their division outright was December 27, when they were 17-17 and tied for the lead. The last time they were more than a game back of the division lead was December 11.
I was looking at NBA East standings in total and saw them hovering between 8th and 11th position, didn't realize they were leading that division. Not a fun team just over .500 but fair point that they were in the picture all along. Panthers were pretty exciting fighting for that last playoff spot, though, weren't they?
Technically meaningful, but was anyone really watching in mid-August last year because they were only 4 games back of the 3rd WC?
Every game until we hit the road out to here, then followed as much as I could considering games weren't on TV and we were in a short term furnished rental.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,952
I think that pro-Bloomers and anti-Bloomers should just have a numbered list of grievances/accolades talking points. That way when this thread gets bumped again in a few weeks (days? hours?) we can just communicate by numbers because it'll be a billion times easier and quite honestly, no one is listening to anyone else at this point and we're all talking past one another.

scottyno: 4
JMOH: 3
Lose: 3 and 8
tim4wins: 9, 11 and 2

See how much fun that would be?
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,891
Hingham, MA
I agree JMOH this thread hasn’t been particularly productive or useful. A decent chunk of that is on me. Perhaps we revisit after the trade deadline.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,955
From an opposing fan's perspective, I'd say that Bloom's tenure so far has probably been a B, not fantastic and not terrible.

The issue that IMO isn't mentioned enough, though, is that not only did he come into a very difficult situation, but when he was hired (Oct 2019), I don't think it was clear just how loaded the division would be going forward. The Orioles specifically have seemingly pulled off a fantastic rebuild, tied for the second best record in MLB, still with tons of young talent on the way, and with almost no financial commitments going forward yet. This is actually where I think Henry/Bloom fell down, because I think if they had realized what a powerhouse BAL was turning into (no one really did back then), they would have abandoned the two prong approach of 'stay competitive while rebuilding' and been much more likely to go for the full-on rebuild, no matter how upset that made part of the fan base.
I would be shocked if Bloom and Henry (et al) didn't realize that BAL was going to be really good by this point in the near future. I mean they had just picked up Rodriguez, Rutchman, and Henderson in back-to-back drafts and everyone knew they were going to tank for as long as it took these premium talent guys to force their way to the majors.

Yes, Elias hit on more than just draft picks but one of the great luxuries teams have when they are not trying to win is to play guys with potential and see if they might be or might not be contributors.

And who knows - maybe Henry / Bloom thought that they could use the Os tank job as a smokescreen for their slashing of payroll/rebuild?
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
31,461
It feels like Bloom and/or the ownership have used the 3rd WC as a way to promote the team as being competitive, instead of truly trying to compete by virtue of having a legitimate contender.
"We are 'competitive'" is marketing. The "legitimate contender" thing (assuming there's a difference, given how playoffs go) is the intended result of the on-going rebuild-on-the-fly. "We are 'competitive,' but we won't be 'legitimate contenders' this year" is anti-marketing. The Astros and Orioles, by contrast, said for years, "We suck and are definitely *not* competitive, but we're trying to rebuild." I (and others) believe that ownership (rightly or wrongly) won't allow that approach.

If you think that they really aren't trying to be a "legitimate contender" (again, assuming that's a separate and identifiable thing) then we just disagree.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,891
Hingham, MA
"We are 'competitive'" is marketing. The "legitimate contender" thing (assuming there's a difference, given how playoffs go) is the intended result of the on-going rebuild-on-the-fly. "We are 'competitive,' but we won't be 'legitimate contenders' this year" is anti-marketing. The Astros and Orioles, by contrast, said for years, "We suck and are definitely *not* competitive, but we're trying to rebuild." I (and others) believe that ownership (rightly or wrongly) won't allow that approach.

If you think that they really aren't trying to be a "legitimate contender" (again, assuming that's a separate and identifiable thing) then we just disagree.
Crap I was ready to stop posting in this thread but do you truly believe that the FO truly believes that the 2022 and 2023 Red Sox had a legitimate chance at a title?? As in, more than the 3% chance that every team has going into each season if all teams were equal? I find that really hard to believe.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
72,609
I would be shocked if Bloom and Henry (et al) didn't realize that BAL was going to be really good by this point in the near future.
I mean, I don't think anyone thought BAL would be a serious contender in 2023, no one even thought that this winter when they got flak from every direction for not spending any money when their window was starting to open. I think in 2019 everyone knew that BAL was aiming for this, but no one had much idea of how successful they'd be at it.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,955
Got it on the digression...guess I didnt read far enough back. Appreciate the explanation and fwiw 100% agree with your post.
No worries. I don't really a horse in this discussion but I think anyone expecting a team with the 15th highest payroll and no recent top of the draft players or international FAs on the major league roster to have a team capable of winning 90+ games is pretty unrealistic. I mean it certainly can happen but it's pretty unlikely and not at all sustainable.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,952
I agree JMOH this thread hasn’t been particularly productive or useful. A decent chunk of that is on me. Perhaps we revisit after the trade deadline.
It's not just you, it's all of us. Asking who Bloom should have gotten in the winter of 2019 instead of Player X without speculation is just arguing in as bad of faith as saying that Bloom had Mayer fall in his lap.

I'm not a fan of the guy, but at the end of the day me pretending that he's done most things wrong is incorrect and is being done just to win an argument that's unwinnable. And that's the same as saying everything that Bloom touches turns to gold. No GM has won 'em all or lost 'em all or even won most of 'em or lost most of 'em. Many GMs have about a .500 winning percentage. The good ones are slightly over and the bad ones are slightly under. It's no fun to say that, it's much more fun to say Bloom sucks or Bloom rules and here are the numbers, but at the same time it's kinda exhausting. Especially when no one (on either side) is listening.

I'm not going to lock the thread because just because I grow tired of something, that's not the case for anyone else. I guess the only thing that I'd say is, if you've made the same point 20 times, maybe think twice about making it the 21st.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
31,461
Crap I was ready to stop posting in this thread but do you truly believe that the FO truly believes that the 2022 and 2023 Red Sox had a legitimate chance at a title?? As in, more than the 3% chance that every team has going into each season if all teams were equal? I find that really hard to believe.
If they think/thought the team could make the playoffs then yes. (And I do think they thought the team could make the playoffs.)
Do/did they think they were 100-win teams? Probably not.
 

ShaneTrot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2002
6,513
Overland Park, KS
All will be forgiven if they sign Ohtani. I kid!

I think my beef is for a big market team that spends money, they are no fun to watch.

They cannot play defense and Bloom has not stressed defensive run prevention in his team building, not one of Bloom's teams has ranked higher than 18th in team defensive runs saved. This year the Sox are 25th in team defensive runs saved. The Sox only rank higher than the White Sox, Nationals, Cardinals, Royals, and A's. Those teams are heinous this year. This lousy defense obviously strains the pitching staff. BTW Toronto, Tampa, and the MFY are ranked first, fourth, and sixth in team defensive runs saved this year.

The Sox are not made for the new rules, they are slow on the bases. The Rays have three guys in the top ten in stolen bases and lead MLB in stolen bases with 91, 21 more than the second-place team. The Sox have 41 SB, good for 22nd in MLB. Who are the guys taking an extra base on this team? Verdugo, Duran? For the most part, the Sox run like they are carrying pianos.

They are 1-7 against TB. It's easy to see when you watch the games. The Sox plod around in the field and on the base paths and TB plays good defense and runs circles around them.

I remember Theo saying all teams have strengths and weaknesses. If the offense had stayed hot, maybe they carry this lousy defense, and they would be in much better shape but they have cooled significantly in May and June.

Bloom had the mandate to clear the books for new free agents and build the farm for the next contending team while trying to make the playoffs. The injuries hurt but all teams experience injuries. The 2023 offseason has a good free-agent pitching crop (Flaherty, Giolito, Montgomery, Nola, Ohtani, Snell, and Urías). I think he should get one more year but I am open to throwing him in the airlock because whatever this is, it ain't working.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.