Gillette crowd noise: is it a problem?

[mauf]

I think the Gilette crowd always has been kind of blah -- mostly because of the shape of the stadium. However, I'm not sure it matters. Do people here think it matters -- like tangibly -- would the Patriots have won more home games the last 15 years if the crowd was better? Or are we purely talking about the fan experience? By my count on Football reference, the Patriots are 108-21 at home during the Billenium. I'm fine with saying our crowd kinda sucks, I just don't think it really matters outside of people that want to wear "12" shirts or whatever.

Iirc, playing at home is a bigger advantage in football than it is in baseball or hockey, but not as big as in basketball (in each case, at the sport's highest levels). The reasons why home court is big in basketball are self-evident to anyone who played the sport. I figured the gap in HFA between football, and baseball and hockey, was largely due to the impact of crowd noise. I didn't play any of those sports at a high level, however, so I could be all wet.

In any event, I don't know if the difference between a raucous crowd and a relatively tame one is big enough that we could say with any confidence that one (or more) of those 21 home losses in the past 17 years would've been changed into wins if the crowd in Foxboro was as noisy as, say, a typical crowd in Seattle or Kansas City.

 

[tims4wins]

I am with H78 on this. I remember going to the 2003 game at Houston. The place was probably only 75-80% full but it was freaking deafening (and yes it was at least partially due to the roof being closed). Like H78 said, I was amazed that the Pats could even run their offense it was so loud.

And while I agree that the wine and cheese crowd plays a factor, I think this is mostly about stadium design.

And all of that being said, a better home crowd would have led to exactly zero more home playoff wins and maybe at most a small handful of regular season wins. Unless one or two of those wins led to more home playoff games in which case sure. But for instance they didn't lose to Philly last year because of the crowd.

 

[TheoShmeo]

The composition of the people sitting in the lower bowl has changed dramatically.

Also......you are kind of romanticizing that one a bit.

As to the latter, I might be. I just remember it being louder than the current stadium, and I continue to think that stadium construction is a huge factor. But it's not as if I have anything other than faded memories to work with.

As to the former, that's probably also true. Tix are just more expensive now. But given how different the stadiums are, the make-up of the crowd in the lower bowl is just one variable and I think a much less important one. I've sat pretty much all over that stadium. My four predominant spots are (a) clubs (though stopped doing that because the amenities do nothing for me; I stay in my seat the whole time); (b) uppers, low row; (c) mezz corner; (d) lower sidelines. In my view, the fans along the lower sidelines and the mezz corner are totally into it and are yelling. So I'm just not seeing the distinction.

Others have noted that it feels pretty futile to yell from upstairs given how freaking far away you are. I buy that. I remember yelling my ass off during games a few years ago and coming to the realization that I was essentially yelling in the middle of a forest. In other words, making a lot of noise for no particular reason. To me, this is the biggest problem. And as mentioned in a prior post, even the fans in the Clubs are not as bad as some say. I do hate that so many of them come back late after half time and if the weather sucks, just stay inside, and I think those things matter. But I really don't buy the wine/cheese thing with them in that those who are in their seats seem to be fully into it.

Last, some mentioned the hammered fans thing. Isn't there a percentage of fans in every city like that? Maybe they are more prevalent way upstairs. I can't say that I have seen many fans come in late, spend time running for beers and then leaving early. The running for beers thing, yeah. (Nothing wrong with that in my book! As long as you do it efficiently, of course....)

 

[Stitch01]

I see at least a handful of people doing it in the two or three rows around me every regular season game I go to. Empty seat until the second quarter or so, gone by the 4th quarter, beer runs in the middle. I mentioned it just in contrast with the stereotypical wine and cheese fan who sits there and complains about other people standing and isn't into the game at all. Ive encountered that fan, but only a few times.

I agree that I think the primary issue with noise is stadium construction. That said, its a different behaving crowd than it was at Foxboro Stadium 20 years ago for a number of reasons that aren't just the team is winning more games. I think its a good thing overall, but probably hurting crowd noise marginally.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Let's just remember, before we wallow in the sticky nostalgia of Foxboro Stadium memories, that fan behavior at the old dump got so bad that the Pats were banned from prime time games for about 15 years. The old stadium was a shithole, inhabited by shitty people behaving badly while watching mostly shitty football.

Good riddance.

 

[Stitch01]

Yeah, that's what I mean by its a good thing overall, a lot of the worst bullshit disappeared once the Kraft's started pulling tickets for bad behavior. Id feel pretty comfortable bringing a kid to a game in the upper section now. 25 years ago, not so much.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Let's just remember, before we wallow in the sticky nostalgia of Foxboro Stadium memories, that fan behavior at the old dump got so bad that the Pats were banned from prime time games for about 15 years. The old stadium was a shithole, inhabited by shitty people behaving badly while watching mostly shitty football.

Good riddance.

So it was basically a 2016 Buffalo home game?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

So it was basically a 2016 Buffalo home game?

With less ass-eating.

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

See, and here is the thing....no stadium crushes it. It is not like at the Linc they are spinning DJ AM-esque mixes to which all get down and funky, but you will get maybe 50 percent same old-same old, 25% rap, 25% stuff that is very very mildly eclectic. Even the Rocky song ("Gonna Fly Now") gets played once before kickoff (always, along with the full montage. I won't lie.....it's cheesy as shit but after about 4 beers you are ready to go into a freezer and punch some frozen beef.....or a person wearing another team's jersey. Whatever.) and no more than one time again during the game.

But Gillette - which I think has some of the best sight lines you could ever want, a great atmosphere and a bunch of other wildly positive attributes - sucks so bad on the music front that it hurts.

I went to a BC-BU hockey game at Conte Forum the weekend after David Bowie died, and Bowie was all the arena DJ played. It was awesome, and the sold-out crowd was really into it. A pro stadium DJ likely doesn't have the freedom to do this sort of thing, but he absolutely should.

Something tells me that in a Venn diagram of stadium DJs and wedding DJs, the overlap is huge.

 

[Leather]

The Minnesota Twins used to play mostly local music, at least up until 2010 or so when the owners switched to some Top 100 Music Conglomerate. So you'd get a lot of Prince, The Replacements, Morris Day, some Hold Steady, a dose of cleverly-included Dylan (a quick snippet of "A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall" for impending rain delays, for instance). Stuff like that, mixed with more traditional stadium fare. It was awesome. Then it was gone, ostensibly because kids needed to hear Katy Perry and Taylor Swift more often to stay engaged, but really to cross-promote the owners' business interests (they had a stake in the music conglomerate).

 

[Dogman]

Let's just remember, before we wallow in the sticky nostalgia of Foxboro Stadium memories, that fan behavior at the old dump got so bad that the Pats were banned from prime time games for about 15 years. The old stadium was a shithole, inhabited by shitty people behaving badly while watching mostly shitty football.

Good riddance.

I think the lack of prime time games was because of the horrible football and had nothing to do with any fan behavior.

I don't dispute your last statement about horrible fans.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

I think the lack of prime time games was because of the horrible football and had nothing to do with any fan behavior.

I don't dispute your last statement about horrible fans.

I'm a little too young to remember it, but i was always under the belief that SJH's reasoning was legit. I was at the Pats first prime time game after the long stretch - a Monday night game against the Bills - 95? 96? - we sat in one of Kraft's boxes - and that was what we were told by those around us. Neither would shock me.

 

[Stitch01]

Foxboro passed a town ordinance banning prime time games after several mass arrest incidents. The (apocryphal?) story I was always told was that the final straw was when they had to arrest a guy for urinating on a first responders giving a man medical attention in the parking lot. The Pats didn't host a night game for like 15 years. The Monday night game against the Bills in 1995 was a huge thing and I think even for that game they wouldn't open the lots until somewhat close to game time (they used to open them at like 9 AM for the night games and nooooope that didn't go well)

(edited with more color)

 

[PayrodsFirstClutchHit]

http://www.thesunchronicle.com/news/local_news/police-chief-says-night-games-at-gillette-stadium-no-longer/article_5848f63e-eb1e-5b57-b21f-72b699035b13.html

At one game, O'Leary said, he confiscated five guns from fans.

"They said it was like the wild west, and they had to protect themselves," O'Leary recalled of the gun-toting patrons, a story that made the local TV news.

And Monday Night Football was the worst - with behavior so bad that selectmen banned Monday night games for several years.

 

[TheoShmeo]

If memory serves, the really wild, drunken behavior at Pats home games was more of a 70s era thing. I think by the Parcells Era, that was pretty much over and people were talking about how the crowds at those games weren't as rowdy as they had been. Not that I am nostalgic about the prior stadium. Those benches were freezing and the bathroom lines were awful. But it was louder than the current place.

 

[Bernie Carbohydrate]

I split out the crowd noise discussion here. New threads are good!

You missed the opportunity to name the new the thread "Crowd noise can't melt steel beams."

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Let's just remember, before we wallow in the sticky nostalgia of Foxboro Stadium memories, that fan behavior at the old dump got so bad that the Pats were banned from prime time games for about 15 years. The old stadium was a shithole, inhabited by shitty people behaving badly while watching mostly shitty football.

Good riddance.

If you wanted to get punched or thrown up on by an unemployed alcoholic in the 80s, Veteran's Stadium was your place. If you wanted to get punched by or thrown up on by an unemployed meth head in the 80s, there were few places on earth better than Sullivan Stadium.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You missed the opportunity to name the new the thread "Crowd noise can't melt steel beams."

Dammit!

 

[Vinho Tinto]

Isn't there a percentage of fans in every city like that?

I think that is generally true of most of the northeastern stadiums, but definitely not all. I've sat in cheap seats for prime time games in Nashville, New Orleans, and the old Texas Stadium and I would call each experience family friendly. Haven't been to AT&T, but I don't think the vibe would change in Jerry's billion dollar fun-house.

I'd never sit in the 300s in Gillette for a night game with my kid unless it was in the preseason. I went to last year's Monday night game vs Buffalo and everyone around me was blacked out. I never felt threatened, but it gets annoying half waiting to see which will be the next drunk to spill beer on you. I've been to day games, and sat in lower sections, and the vibe was 100% different.

 

[NickEsasky]

You missed the opportunity to name the new the thread "Crowd noise can't melt steel beams."

It always saddens me to head over to DS and see that SJH saves his best stuff for them and not us. Always second best.

 

[H78]

Nice humblebrag.

Huh?

I moved to Denver last year and on the drive out here I happened to pass through Indy while the Pats were in town. So I went.

Now I live less than a mile from Mile High. So I went to the AFCCG last year.

Not a humblebrag at all, I went to both games because the circumstances worked for me.

---

Whomever pointed out that the "new" Mile High is not necessarily built to "contain" noise is spot on. It's wide open, much like Gillette, though it doesn't have the opening at one end. But it's a very wide and open stadium, not narrow and "tall" like CenturyLink. There's nothing about the new Mile High that makes me think it was built to contain noise. It's a very average-looking (in terms of construction) open-air football stadium.

I honestly think the crowd is just MUCH more into the games here than they are in Foxboro. People barely even sit during big games; they're up on their feet for pretty much the whole game, whether they're first row in the lower bowl or the last row up top.

 

[Stitch01]

Denver's crowd in Gillette Stadium would make less noise than Denver fans in the new Mile High.

 

[Leather]

And indoor stadiums like Indy's are always going to be louder and more raucous.

 

[Stitch01]

Also dont think its been mentioned, but Gillette's capacity is smaller than most or all of the other stadiums in the league.

Again, its not a great crowd a lot of the time, but I think the idea that if everyone just yelled and stomped more it would be a materially improved homefield advantage wouldnt really pan out.

 

[H78]

Denver's crowd in Gillette Stadium would make less noise than Denver fans in the new Mile High.

I don't disagree with that. Because of the open end.

But they'd still be much, much louder than current Gillette crowds.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Yes, you are correct. I think that most all of the other points I made in my post are bigger factors than the one we are discussing, but between the price of tickets and distance from the city it is a tough draw for a young, angry and loud crowd..

That goes both ways though - I went to very few Red Sox games in my 20s because it was such a pain in the ass to get to Fenway. There's no parking, the subway is a mess (and takes forever), etc. Going to Gillette is fantastic in comparison to Fenway if you live outside the city.

 

[H78]

This thread is really making me realize that Pats fans really don't like when you question a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g about the team or its fans.

I mean, it doesn't make me upset or anything. It's just funny how my perspective has shifted and I feel like I notice the extreme level of defensiveness much more now that I'm out of NE.

That's not meant to attack anyone here. I'm just passing along what I perceive is an honest observation.

 

[Stitch01]

I don't disagree with that. Because of the open end.

But they'd still be much, much louder than current Gillette crowds.

Yes, and the rest of the way the stadium is designed (upper level up, dead zone of the club seats, wider playing surface because its designed for uses beyond football). They might be a bit louder then today, I dont know, but you are never going to have that "wow everything is shaking how can the QB hear the plays" thing going on in Foxboro because the stadium won't accomodate it. The Gillette playoff crowds are fine. If the Pats want that sort of homefield advantage, they need a new stadium.

 

[H78]

Yes, and the rest of the way the stadium is designed (upper level up, dead zone of the club seats, wider playing surface because its designed for uses beyond football). They might be a bit louder then today, I dont know, but you are never going to have that "wow everything is shaking how can the QB hear the plays" thing going on in Foxboro because the stadium won't accomodate it. The Gillette playoff crowds are fine. If the Pats want that sort of homefield advantage, they need a new stadium.

We're mostly in agreement, minus the "shaking stadium" part. Everyone is up and stomping away during Broncos home games, for close to the full 60 minutes of play.

Let's just say I think Broncos fans burn a hell of a lot more calories than Patriots fans on gameday. I'm not bragging for them; it sucks to be a Pats fan in the center of it all. Especially when the Pats lose.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Also dont think its been mentioned, but Gillette's capacity is smaller than most or all of the other stadiums in the league.

17th by this, though doesn't reflect Rams moving to Colesium.

http://www.stadiumsofprofootball.com/capacity.htm

Wiki has slightly different numbers, but I think it's fair to say they're middle of the pack.

Not picking a dog in the fight, but I don't think attendance size is the hill to die on. Design, certainly.

 

[Stitch01]

I had read 26tg but that's what I get for not fact checking besides looking up Denver and KC

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

I had read 26tg but that's what I get for not fact checking besides looking up Denver and KC

Looking again I assume Minnesota is still using the numbers from when they played at UM, but US Bank is still slightly smaller than Gillette.

 

[ShaneTrot]

I have been to a few games at the Razor. It just does not get loud. I went to the Pats-Chiefs game at Arrowhead in 2014. This was not a pleasant experience football-wise, but man that fucking place is loud. It was deafening and seemed to affect the Pats in the first half. Chiefs fans scream the whole game. They are also surprisingly nice to out of town fans but I would not want to go as a Raider fan.

 

[Leather]

This thread is really making me realize that Pats fans really don't like when you question a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g about the team or its fans.

I mean, it doesn't make me upset or anything. It's just funny how my perspective has shifted and I feel like I notice the extreme level of defensiveness much more now that I'm out of NE.

That's not meant to attack anyone here. I'm just passing along what I perceive is an honest observation.

Go to any board of any team and say "your fans aren't as passionate as your chief rivals'" and see what happens. Because that's essentially what you're saying ("Pats fans don't come close to what they deliver on game day").

I mean, come on. Nobody is calling you names or anything. Hell, most people agree with you. It's not as loud. But there are reasons for that. We can disagree without the generalizations.

 

[luckiestman]

Go to any board of any team and say "your fans aren't as passionate as your chief rivals'" and see what happens. Because that's essentially what you're saying ("Pats fans don't come close to what they deliver on game day").

I mean, come on. Nobody is calling you names or anything. Hell, most people agree with you. It's not as loud. But there are reasons for that. We can disagree without the generalizations.

Sometimes it is just true though. I'm a Nole and the Swamp(Gainesville) is way louder than Doak(Tallahassee). Some of it is acoustics but SEC fans are just a little crazier too in terms of yelling.

Does it mean they care more? I don't know, it definitely means they yell more.

 

[ilol@u]

I go to a Patriot game every year and I agree, the crowd noise is not a factor at all. In the playoffs, it does get pretty loud. But aside from the lower bowl, everyone else is usually sitting down. I don't think it has much to do with ones 'fandom' moreso than the stadium not holding in noise. Which causes some fans to not even bother yelling because they know it doesnt make a difference. Its a vicious cycle.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

I can't believe we're 130+ posts into this thread and no one has pulled out the classic "Well everyone's wearing gloves, so of course it's not as loud!"

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

It always saddens me to head over to DS and see that SJH saves his best stuff for them and not us. Always second best.

Shit you guys are onto me. I need to change avatars.

 

[joe dokes]

I think the lack of prime time games was because of the horrible football and had nothing to do with any fan behavior.

I don't dispute your last statement about horrible fans.

I thought the Foxboro Selectmen said, "no more. no fucking way" after the "burning the seats" game.

EDIT: Noted upthread.

 

[Leather]

I go to a Patriot game every year and I agree, the crowd noise is not a factor at all. In the playoffs, it does get pretty loud. But aside from the lower bowl, everyone else is usually sitting down. I don't think it has much to do with ones 'fandom' moreso than the stadium not holding in noise. Which causes some fans to not even bother yelling because they know it doesnt make a difference. Its a vicious cycle.

This makes the most sense to me. Noise is contagious. If it's quiet, you're more apt to start a conversation and less likely to abruptly decide to yell/stamp/clap. If it's loud, you're more apt to get carried away and get into it. I think the other factors (complacency, expensive tickets, location not likely to draw college students/young people who don't want to have to drive) are also factors, but not the chief ones.

And, hey, at least they don't pipe in crowd noise like some teams.

 

[mauf]

I'd never sit in the 300s in Gillette for a night game with my kid unless it was in the preseason. I went to last year's Monday night game vs Buffalo and everyone around me was blacked out. I never felt threatened, but it gets annoying half waiting to see which will be the next drunk to spill beer on you. I've been to day games, and sat in lower sections, and the vibe was 100% different.

Not sure if we have had different experiences, or if I'm just more laid back about what my kid is exposed to than you are. My take is that if your kid is old enough to stay up for a night game, he/she isn't going to learn any new words, and watching the drunks stumble around is kind of funny. (We saw a couple folks fall ass-over-teakettle at the Bengals game a couple years ago.) Getting beer spilled on you sucks, but it doesn't seem more likely to happen at Gillette than in the bleachers at Fenway.

I have been to a few games at the Razor. It just does not get loud. I went to the Pats-Chiefs game at Arrowhead in 2014. This was not a pleasant experience football-wise, but man that fucking place is loud. It was deafening and seemed to affect the Pats in the first half. Chiefs fans scream the whole game. They are also surprisingly nice to out of town fans but I would not want to go as a Raider fan.

KC is probably the league's loudest crowd -- Arrowhead rivals the place in Seattle for the loudest stadium, and to my knowledge Arrowhead isn't specially engineered to amplify crowd noise.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

My tix are halfway up the 300s in the middle of the field and I'd bring my kid there to a night game if I didn't think he'd fall asleep at halftime. Everybody's pretty well behaved.

But, yeah, there's just a lot of sitting, in general. On a cold night, especially, I'd just as soon stand through the whole game, especially against a good team like the Seahawks, but I often sit just because everyone around me is and I don't want to be the dick block everyone's view.

 

[Ale Xander]

It's not only the quantity of the noise it's the timing and quality of it. There seems to be too much annoying chair banging and foot stomping instead of unified cheering. Especially when drunks think there isn't enough noise.

And not enough understanding of the difference between offense and defense

Maybe this is just me though.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

And not enough understanding of the difference between offense and defense

That would be a tough thing to overcome to be honest.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

That would be a tough thing to overcome to be honest.

Please, you just follow the signs "QUIET OFFENSE AT WORK" (which they don't even bother to show anymore since there's no reason anymore) and some random Patriot player on the big screen saying "MAKE SOME NOOOOIIIISSEEE!!"

 

[JimBoSox9]

Pretty much every NFL team mentioned with 'stand-and-yell' fans have at least 2 major D1 football schools in their market, and no BC doesn't count. That's prly where the behavior differences tend to come from, a larger percentage of fans already used to acting hat way at football.

 

[grsharky7]

I feel almost all sports crowds are tamer than they used to be.

 

[Ale Xander]

Pretty much every NFL team mentioned with 'stand-and-yell' fans have at least 2 major D1 football schools in their market, and no BC doesn't count. That's prly where the behavior differences tend to come from, a larger percentage of fans already used to acting hat way at football.

If BC doesn't count, then neither does Kansas. Nor Colorado State or Air Force. And what is the second school near Seattle?

 

[bakahump]

Guys, Not sure this is a big deal as the Superbowl is played at a neutral site.