Edes: JBJ down to AAA, Betts up

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threecy said:
I could have sworn he hurt his knee early in the season, but there is also this:
 
"Pedroia initially injured the wrist against the Brewers on April 4 and has struggled mightily since. The soreness became great enough that he reportedly couldn't get through hitting drills Sunday. Now he's on his way to Boston while his team travels from New York to Chicago for a three-game series against the White Sox."
 
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24526273/%3Ca%20href=
 
 
Regarding Pedroia and Betts, if Pedroia's no longer able to play 2B daily in the future, I imagine they could move him to something like left field.  Biggio and Carew, offhand, moved around a bit later in their careers.
 
Ahh yes, I do remember that now.  But I also wonder if it is still an issue.
 
On April 12th he had this slash line: 236/236/291
 
On April 16th (first game back from the injury) he went 2 for 6 w/ 2 walks, and by the end of the month had this slash line: 270/325/351 (304/400/411 over 13 games), and he now stands at 280/340/379.  If anything, we know it didn't affect him immediately after coming back.
 
EDIT: And yes DrewDawg, of course.  It's why I suggested it.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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HillysLastWalk said:
 
Seriously, what's the difference?
The difference is that I'm not trying to have a semantics debate about the exact way we should describe the flaws with WAR. I'm criticizing you for your use of it, especially the way you used it. I mean, you pointed out how it's quite possibly useless when used in small samples, then turned around and extrapolated a full season total out of a month. I don't care what words we use to point out the problem, I care that you are engaging in behavior that is part of that problem, and worse, that you compounded it by literally multiplying it.

The reason I jumped on you and not Ricardo is that he threw the term out as a general descriptor of value. Since we were talking about a player who will be under control for around 6 seasons, "5 WAR player" clearly means on average, which implies a large enough sample for the stat to stabalize. There's a huge difference between his post and yours.

I'm not trying to insult or belittle you here, and you are far from the first poster I've criticized for this, but this is an issue we've had a sticky up regarding for years now.

Edit. Removed the stuff aimed at Hilly and not his content.
 

smastroyin

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Everybody's right and everybody's wrong.
 
Time to shut up about it now.
 

benhogan

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smastroyin said:
I think Farrell's public comments questioning JBJ's stubbornness and ability to follow instruction are more concerning than anything that JBJ says, given that Farrell is a middle aged man who is already in an established career and not fighting for his professional life.
 
If this is going to be an organization that wants to break in 3-5 young players per year or whatever the stated goal was, you absolutely have to figure out how to get through and help guys that are slumping, not throw them under the bus when they are understandably frustrated that things that have been working for them for years and years stop working.  
Excellent, excellent post...
 
Farrell should know better.  I'm sure John is more frustrated then anyone else around the Red Sox about this season, but there is nothing to be gained by commenting to the media about a rookies hitting struggles/approach.
 
Getting sent down to AAA after 400 ABs while playing gold glove CF says it all.
 
To me JBJ provides much more future value to this franchise then WMB. Yet WMB gets penciled in to the line up every night and refuses to address his eyesight issue.
 

Plympton91

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HillysLastWalk said:
  But as of July 23rd, they were proclaiming him 100% (other than day-to-day maintenance that everyone goes through).
And in August he had a 744 OPS. A Board that spent a whole season talking about how valuable a good defensive CF with a 600 OPS could be, shouldn't be simultaneously trying to trade away someone who is by any measure a "gold-glove" 2Bman (a more important defensive position)with an OPS 125 to 150 points higher than that. Yet, here we are, with people deathly afraid that leaving Betts in CF might "block" dear old JBJ.

Some people just have prospect envy, regardless of how this season should have thrown cold water all over that affliction. Seriously folks, some of us have seen generations of Jackie Bradley's come and go. I remember Lou Gorman telling me how great a leadoff hitter Lachelle Tarver was going to be, and how Wes Gardner was the team's closer of the future as he justified trading away Bobby Ojeda, who of course had a better rest of his career than everyone the Red Sox got for him combined. Then we had the Kevin Morton/Phil Plantier era (I've still got an autographed Phil Plantier Bat sitting in the rafters of my parent's attic); and then the Donnie Sadler/Michael Coleman/Brian Rose prospect bubble. This isn't new. And as Philly Sox Fan has showed in his great research, even top 10 overall in all of baseball prospects fail to be more than part time contributors nearly half the time.
 

knucklecup

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benhogan said:
Excellent, excellent post...
 
Farrell should know better.  I'm sure John is more frustrated then anyone else around the Red Sox about this season, but there is nothing to be gained by commenting to the media about a rookies hitting struggles/approach.
 
Getting sent down to AAA after 400 ABs while playing gold glove CF says it all.
 
To me JBJ provides much more future value to this franchise then WMB. Yet WMB gets penciled in to the line up every night and refuses to address his eyesight issue.
Good post on good post.

JBJ stayed quiet while everybody was writing him off and only spoke up when his character was questioned. I don't find that to be immature at all.
 

nattysez

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Cherington on Bradley: 'Never been an issue with whether he works and whether he cares'
 
 
https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/507279514310049793
 
Cherington on whether coachability issues or work ethic played into Bradley to minors: 'Absolutely not'
 
 
https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/507279353953390592
 
Cherington said Bradley would return to majors this month. Flatly denied coachability was an issue. But said he has to find a way to excel.
 
 
https://twitter.com/PeteAbe/status/507280620608061440
 

jimbobim

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No problem with JBJ defending himself via the tweet. When stuff like this "leaks" these days the target of the leaks is put in a pretty much impossible spot of addressing the controversy to defend himself  while also looking like his eyes and ears are listening and reading too much in the media which "theoretically" and practically is a disaster in a place like Boston. 
 
I get why opposing teams would try and put this stubborn line out there because it further tanks a draft stock thats in the cellar. I like Cherington addressing it immediately to try and douse it immediately . 
 
The problem is Mookie JBJ and Castillo all can't start with Cespedes, Nava, Craig, Victorino looking for OF AB's and JBJ has already got his ML opportunity. I love his defense as much as the next guy but he essentially reset his development clock in that he's going to have to tear Spring Training and AAA up to get back in the OF discussion.  
 

Plympton91

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Allan Craig: 121 / 237 / 271.

I would not be planning on him being anything other than a mascot in 2015.
 

Stitch01

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If no other moves and assuming they're going to give Castillo opening crack at a job given contract, Cespedes/Castillo/Betts plan A with Craig/Victorino coming off the bench and Bradley at AAA to start?  Expensive bench for a year, but that's pretty good depth and creates a roster with a fair amount of redundancy. I agree with you, I wouldn't count on Craig to start next year at this point, but as a plan B along with Victorino he's pretty good (albeit expensive) insurance for Betts/Castillo growing pains seems fine.
 
Betts and Holt create some roster flexibility as well, so Victorino/Craig would be, in some sense, functioning as X and Pedroia backups as well.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Stitch01 said:
If no other moves and assuming they're going to give Castillo opening crack at a job given contract, Cespedes/Castillo/Betts plan A with Craig/Victorino coming off the bench and Bradley at AAA to start?  Expensive bench for a year, but that's pretty good depth and creates a roster with a fair amount of redundancy. I agree with you, I wouldn't count on Craig to start next year at this point, but as a plan B along with Victorino he's pretty good (albeit expensive) insurance for Betts/Castillo growing pains seems fine.
 
Betts and Holt create some roster flexibility as well, so Victorino/Craig would be, in some sense, functioning as X and Pedroia backups as well.
This all makes perfect sense.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think Farrell's public comments questioning JBJ's stubbornness and ability to follow instruction are more concerning than anything that JBJ says, given that Farrell is a middle aged man who is already in an established career and not fighting for his professional life.
 
If this is going to be an organization that wants to break in 3-5 young players per year or whatever the stated goal was, you absolutely have to figure out how to get through and help guys that are slumping, not throw them under the bus when they are understandably frustrated that things that have been working for them for years and years stop working.
In JBJ's defense, it seems to me - and I am going from memory here - that JBJ listened to a lot of different people during the early and middle of the season, but when things started going bad again, he thought it was time to get back to what worked. If I had to guess, I would think he feels like he's been too receptive to coaching, not uncoachable.
 

DJnVa

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Plympton91 said:
Allan Craig: 121 / 237 / 271.

I would not be planning on him being anything other than a mascot in 2015.
 
Allen Craig: 32 ABs
 
I would not be planning on the equivalent of a bad 8 games.
 

Plympton91

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DrewDawg said:
 
Allen Craig: 32 ABs
 
I would not be planning on the equivalent of a bad 8 games.
Ok then add those to his putrid numbers for the Cardinals. Taking $30 million of toxic waste was the reason they got 5 years of Kelly for a season and a third of Lackey.
 

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Plympton91 said:
Ok then add those to his putrid numbers for the Cardinals. Taking $30 million of toxic waste was the reason they got 5 years of Kelly for a season and a third of Lackey.
Totally worth it, especially if/when they trade some of their pitching youth to acquire major league talent. Craig was the price to get Kelly, and I don't get why some don't understand this.
 

MakMan44

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Plympton91 said:
Ok then add those to his putrid numbers for the Cardinals. Taking $30 million of toxic waste was the reason they got 5 years of Kelly for a season and a third of Lackey.
Why do people keep throwing this around like it's a fact? You know what is a fact? 
 


Cherington said attractive prospect packages were offered for several of the players the team traded, but the team insisted upon getting major league-ready talent instead.
 
Ben expects Craig to be something other than "toxic waste" and he was not the fucking reason they got Kelly. 
 

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
You're greatly exaggerating. He's had a shitty season and may very well turn out to be not worth his contract, but he was hardly dead weight coming back for the luxury of Joe Kelly. That's a big leap.
 
 
MakMan44 said:
Why do people keep throwing this around like it's a fact? You know what is a fact? 
 
 
 
 
Ben expects Craig to be something other than "toxic waste" and he was not the fucking reason they got Kelly. 
 
To expand on my previous post, I agree with these yahoos. I didn't mean to claim that Craig was a burden, but the Cards did want salary relief and wanted to open spots on their 25 man roster. I believe Cherington saw Craig as a buy low candidate and didn't mind taking on the salary IF he also got Kelly to go along with him.
 

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
You're greatly exaggerating. He's had a shitty season and may very well turn out to be not worth his contract, but he was hardly dead weight coming back for the luxury of Joe Kelly. That's a big leap.
Ok. You've got a medical expert on this Board telling you the chance of Craig being productive after that injury is 50/50 at best, and probably only at DH or 1B, positions that are filled for 2015, but you can believe otherwise if it helps you sleep better.

I'm perfectly happy with the trade even if the release Craig tomorrow; what would make the trade not worth it would be letting Craig play Grady Sizemore in 2015. (And check that BABip in Philly before you get all giddy).
 

Lowrielicious

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Plympton91 said:
Ok then add those to his putrid numbers for the Cardinals. Taking $30 million of toxic waste was the reason they got 5 years of Kelly for a season and a third of Lackey.
 
Or potentially (given the non-comments from Lackey on playing next year at minimum while in Boston, then immediately stating he will have no problem with it post-trade) a third of a season from Lackey (with the season already lost), then a whole boatload of drama in the offseason and potentially beyond.
 
Could easily have been addition by subtraction just letting him go for nothing.
 

DJnVa

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Anyone wanna move all this to a thread about Craig, toxic waste, and Kelly?
 

MakMan44

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Plympton91 said:
Ok. You've got a medical expert on this Board telling you the chance of Craig being productive after that injury is 50/50 at best, and probably only at DH or 1B, positions that are filled for 2015, but you can believe otherwise if it helps you sleep better.
I'm a big fan of DRS but he didn't have access to Craig's medical history. 
 
I mean, how are people seriously suggesting that Ben was willing to take on $30 million if he thought it was going to be dead weight.
 

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After sleeping on it I went back and removed the stuff in my last post aimed at Hilly and not his content. It was a poor decision and I apologize to everyone, especially Hilly, for going there.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Plympton91 said:
And in August he had a 744 OPS. A Board that spent a whole season talking about how valuable a good defensive CF with a 600 OPS could be, shouldn't be simultaneously trying to trade away someone who is by any measure a "gold-glove" 2Bman (a more important defensive position)with an OPS 125 to 150 points higher than that. Yet, here we are, with people deathly afraid that leaving Betts in CF might "block" dear old JBJ.

Some people just have prospect envy, regardless of how this season should have thrown cold water all over that affliction. Seriously folks, some of us have seen generations of Jackie Bradley's come and go. I remember Lou Gorman telling me how great a leadoff hitter Lachelle Tarver was going to be, and how Wes Gardner was the team's closer of the future as he justified trading away Bobby Ojeda, who of course had a better rest of his career than everyone the Red Sox got for him combined. Then we had the Kevin Morton/Phil Plantier era (I've still got an autographed Phil Plantier Bat sitting in the rafters of my parent's attic); and then the Donnie Sadler/Michael Coleman/Brian Rose prospect bubble. This isn't new. And as Philly Sox Fan has showed in his great research, even top 10 overall in all of baseball prospects fail to be more than part time contributors nearly half the time.
I think his CF defense is so damn good that most people, myself included, hope he can become competent enough with the bat to keep that glove in CF.
 

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Philip Jeff Frye

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Plympton91 said:
Some people just have prospect envy, regardless of how this season should have thrown cold water all over that affliction. Seriously folks, some of us have seen generations of Jackie Bradley's come and go. I remember Lou Gorman telling me how great a leadoff hitter Lachelle Tarver was going to be, and how Wes Gardner was the team's closer of the future as he justified trading away Bobby Ojeda, who of course had a better rest of his career than everyone the Red Sox got for him combined. Then we had the Kevin Morton/Phil Plantier era (I've still got an autographed Phil Plantier Bat sitting in the rafters of my parent's attic); and then the Donnie Sadler/Michael Coleman/Brian Rose prospect bubble. This isn't new. And as Philly Sox Fan has showed in his great research, even top 10 overall in all of baseball prospects fail to be more than part time contributors nearly half the time.
I agree with everything about this post, except that you left out Wilton Veras.
 

czar

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Flunky said:
 
SBNation, the slideshow cootie catcher version of sports news. At least now they have some info to determine the question/answer tree for the "which Red Sox are you?" quiz.
 
Some of the writers for Over The Monster are worthwhile reads. You are missing out if you are blanket dismissing any of SBNation's partner sites.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Adrian's Dome said:
 
Is this actually a thing? Because if so, an unwillingness to work on his mechanics given his massive failures at the plate is...concerning.
I asked this earlier in the year and can't locate a link so I'm thinking I overheard what appeared like a casual comment by Remy early in the year on a broadcast. It went something like JBJ isn't a video guy but one who "sees the ball and hits the ball." Does anyone else recall anything like this?

Combine what "I think" I heard with these recent revelations and you simply can't plan on this guy being any everyday player. The Betts to CF move and Castillo signing indicate the Sox feel same.
 

nattysez

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Pete Abe with a strong defense of JBJ.
 
Also, linked in that article is this one, which I had missed.  It's PeteAbe's take on why the organization made a mistake calling X and JBJ up without letting them get more ABs in the minors.
 

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czar said:
 
Some of the writers for Over The Monster are worthwhile reads. You are missing out if you are blanket dismissing any of SBNation's partner sites.
 
I suspect he's confusing SBNation with Bleacher Report.
 

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nattysez said:
Pete Abe with a strong defense of JBJ.
 
Also, linked in that article is this one, which I had missed.  It's PeteAbe's take on why the organization made a mistake calling X and JBJ up without letting them get more ABs in the minors.
The same Pete Abe who was falling all over himself begging them to keep JBJ on the 25 last Spring Training? Him?
 
He's not totally wrong but it makes it a little hard to stomach. 
 

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threecy said:
One of the complaints is that he's not driving the ball as well as during his big seasons.  I haven't heard anything about it in awhile, but he did suffer a knee injury early in the season (they sent him to Boston for tests if I recall correctly).  That may be robbing him of some power...it could be a bit premature to pronounce a steep offensive decline.
 
Pedroia's 2014 LD% is the highest of his career.  The last two years he's had fewer fly balls and more grounders, but he's driving the ball just fine.
 

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Philip Jeff Frye said:
I agree with everything about this post, except that you left out Wilton Veras.
I also remember when Sox fans thought that Paxton Crawford was supposed to be Greg Maddux. Crazy. Brian Rose came with some serious hype too.
 

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There were also plenty of Sox fans who thought Pedroia wouldn't stick, that Lester was a borderline prospect, that Moss, Reddick, Lowrie and Murphy were bench players at best, that Freddie Sanchez was basically a nothing prospect and so on. I think it's total hyperbole to say Red Sox fans always overvalue their prospects. It's possible the current Red Sox FO obervalues their prospects but that's not the same thing.
 

curly2

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Tyrone Biggums said:
I also remember when Sox fans thought that Paxton Crawford was supposed to be Greg Maddux. Crazy. Brian Rose came with some serious hype too.
 
I don't think anybody thought that about Paxton Crawford. It was Jeff Suppan who was said to have a ceiling as a Poor Man's Greg Maddux. I think some of Rose's hype was not due to the Sox overhyping prospects, but because he was a Massachusetts kid.
 
snowmanny said:
There were also plenty of Sox fans who thought Pedroia wouldn't stick, that Lester was a borderline prospect, that Moss, Reddick, Lowrie and Murphy were bench players at best, that Freddie Sanchez was basically a nothing prospect and so on. I think it's total hyperbole to say Red Sox fans always overvalue their prospects. It's possible the current Red Sox FO obervalues their prospects but that's not the same thing.
 
Amen. I knew people who were convinced after 1992 that Mo Vaughn would never be anything and should be traded.
 

Plympton91

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BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
Didn't he have a degenerative hip condition ?
Not when they got him from the Marlins in 2005. That was after he signed the extension in 2007.
 

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Plympton91 said:
Not when they got him from the Marlins in 2005. That was after he signed the extension in 2007.
This is correct. He had surgery between the 08 and 09 season and was never the same.
 

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Plympton91 said:
Not when they got him from the Marlins in 2005. That was after he signed the extension in 2007.
 
There were warning signs at least as far back as 2005 according to this Globe article from 2008:
 
 
Last month, one baseball source who spoke on the condition of anonymity said that part of the reason the Baltimore Orioles resisted trading for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell in 2005 was because team medical officials believed Lowell would encounter hip problems. Having lived through the problem of Albert Belle's degenerative hip condition, the Orioles subsequently backed out of talks with the Florida Marlins.
 
Extra Bases 9/15/08: Lowell has torn labrum in hip
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Good for Pete Abe. Anonymous comments like that are bullshit. If you're going to call a young player uncoachable and stubborn, put your name to it. That kind of thing can stick to a player for a long time.
 

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czar said:
 
Some of the writers for Over The Monster are worthwhile reads. You are missing out if you are blanket dismissing any of SBNation's partner sites.
One of whom is also a member here. And I agree that OTM has some good writers.
 

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MyDaughterLovesTomGordon said:
Good for Pete Abe. Anonymous comments like that are bullshit. If you're going to call a young player uncoachable and stubborn, put your name to it. That kind of thing can stick to a player for a long time.
 
Mostly good for him. I think he let his pique get away from him there, at the end, in calling for the Sox to trade Bradley. He surely knows, first, that two voices do not make an "organization," and second, that they could belong to anyone, theoretically including a clubbie. In fact that's his point about anonymity. He shouldn't then use anonymous sources to be the basis of an insistence that they trade JBJ.
 
This thread is a little disappointing in what a lot of folks don't seem to grasp, and I say that, or hope I am taken as saying it, without meaning any conceited puffed-uppedness. I can't be the only person around here with experience with professional coaches and coaching, though. Most of them, if not all of them, want to fix you. A lot of them want to be the "guy" that impacts you, especially in the minors, when some guys are trying to make their reputations. So the kind of "coaching" we are talking about is not Nicky Cafardo's idea of coaching. In fact, the one thing I would say that many pro coaches don't do enough of, and need to be much better at, is learning when not to say anything.
 
And this is all JBJ means when he says he's got to be back to trusting what got him as far as he's come. (That's the very advice Pedroia gave him, in fact, partly because Pedey himself knows, and I don't see a lot of folks knocking Pedey.) JBJ didn't perform at those levels all the way through AAA, especially his on-base skills, to suddenly suck in the wallow of 2014. It's not a problem of coachability. It is fundamentally a problem, as some people upthread have pointed out, of too much information -- of confusion. If anything he's tried to please too many people, and tried to listen too much.
 
Here is the difference as you climb the ladder. You face guys with explosive stuff all through the minors, maybe most of all, and ironically, in A ball. But what separates guys as they pitch their way up is command -- the higher they go, the more able are they to hit spots. And by the time you see the big leagues, these are starters who can throw three pitches, and some more than that, for good strikes. [I did not say strikes: I said good strikes.] So you might have seen dudes in A ball who could smoke it or spin it. But you can sit in ambush on those guys for the ones they manage to put over the plate. In AA you might see guys with better command but might only command one or two pitches -- so you eliminate one and square up what you're sitting on. At AAA and higher, and obviously in the bigs, now you've got three pitches some days to worry about. One of those pitches, or two, might be better than the others, but when you're dealing with 90+ velocity that doesn't matter. All he has to do is show it for a strike to make you worry about it. If you've ever seen 90+, you know there is no way to get to it with impact unless you are geared for it -- both for the velocity and the location. In other words, you can be sitting fastball, but you're still going to have to make a choice on location.  If you're a split of a second hesitant -- waiting fastball but worried in the back of your mind about the change or the curve or whatever -- you're not going to do much more than react if you do get the fastball: you're going to be late, and late is no way to make a living. 
 
My point here is that young hitters struggle with pitch sequencing and location more than they struggle with stuff -- they've seen the raw stuff before, but they've not seen guys who can throw multiple pitches for good strikes. And so they find themselves trying to think along, reacting rather than hunting for a pitch. After that all kinds of mechanical things can creep in. Your swing gets slow. Maybe it gets long. Maybe it gets slow and long. Maybe you're not getting up and down in time to recognize the pitch. 
 
It's an approach that JBJ's got to get back to -- hunt the fastball. Until he does that, he's going to struggle. And when he shows he can mash the fastball, he'll then unlock a better idea of how pitchers will approach him, and be better able to think along, and better control of his mechanics. And that is all he means himself when you hear him talk about being lost, etc. He's got so much coming at him that he's got to clear out the clutter and get back to the basic fundamental approach.  
 
[A case in reverse in Ortiz. The guy isn't hitting 32 dongs because he's just as strong and quick now as he was in 2006. He's doing it because he is an exceptionally smart hitter who knows how guys are currently trying to get him out, and how he has to generate power at 38 in ways he didn't have to at 28. Look at his leg kick now compared to 10 years ago, for instance. Some of those bombs this year? He's completely sold out for the fastball on the hands, because that's the only way he can turn on it. But he also knows it's coming, or has a reasonable guess that it is.]
 
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