Did The Yankees Also Illegally Steal Signs?

jon abbey

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OK, starting this thread to try to bring up the level of all of the other threads on this MLB crisis...

Rules:

1) Please try to keep your posts towards factual and away from wishful thinking. Admittedly this is hard in an era where so much actual breaking news comes from random Twitter and Reddit accounts, but please try.

2) This is only about the current crisis, not steroids or domestic violence or taking advantage of NYC for a ridiculous stadium lease deal or anything else, just the illegal sign stealing scandal/s.

I'll be out for the next 4-5 hours and unable to keep a close eye on this thread, so please play nicely and according to the standards of the baseball sections of this site.
 

terrynever

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Jon Abbey suggests we need a catch-all thread for complaints about the Yankees and the current electronic sign stealing scandal.
So here it is. Thus far, no reputable news service has revealed any evidence pinning the Yankees to electronic shenanigans, but this scandal is young. Give it time.
And before we start exchanging information, a few thoughts from a 72-year-old Yankee fan who saw a great sign-stealer, Frank Crosetti, work his magic as third base coach for three decades. In simpler times, before electronics entered dugouts, manually stealing signs was legal, and an asset. Alex Cora is a modern-day Crosetti, a smart baseball man who understood the inside game. He just fell to the temptations of modern technology and applied it to baseball.
Billy Martin was another devious sign-stealer, as if you didn’t know that.
I absolutely hate that Cora’s career is possibly over. Maybe he can go home and run the Puerto Rico Winter League. He’s a good man who made a big mistake and crossed the commissioner, not unlike Shoeless Joe Jackson 100 years ago. But Cora is smarter than Jackson, and maybe today’s world is more forgiving.
I tried to find a good story about the Yankees cheating in 2018 but could only find one about the franchise burying a veteran outfielder in Tampa for two years. Free Jacoby Ellsbury!
Also, do not use the “everybody cheats” rationale. It has been usurped by Trump’s lawyers!
 

bankshot1

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With all due respect Terry, you're using a bait and switch approach. Alex Cora may have been a Svengali of sign-stealing, but he is irrlevant to the topic, and has nothing to do with whether the Yankees illegally stole signs.

But Carlos Beltran is not irrelevant to the subject. It seems he too was extraordinarily adept at reading opponent's intentions and using that information. It appears he went to Cora to leverage his experience and knowledge while in Houston and Cora was a willing co-conspirator. (Hinch was not, but lacked the courage to stand-up to his stars and shut it down,)

I've no idea whether the Yankees broke any rules in this matter, but its fair to ask, why after Beltran retired was he hired as a special assistant to Cashman. What unique baseball insights and knowledge did he possess that Cashman wanted to tap into? Did he want to better understand and compete with the Astro's, a team that beat the Yankees in 2017, and who Beltran played for, and would likely be a competitor in 2019?.

Could be, and that's fine. Intelligence is usually a good thing.



"That is pure coincidence," Beltran said. "I have been discussing this with Cashman for some time now, and on Monday I made the decision to accept it. My job will have nothing to do with Machado´s situation. But I did tell Cashman that I am available to help in whatever is needed and also with the recruitment of Machado if that is necessary."

"Right now, I will basically be trying to help by using everything I have learned over the course of my career,” Beltran told ESPN.com. “I am going to be available for what the management team needs, as well as for the coaches and the players.”

Now there is nothing sinister in that quote, and Beltran probably has insights in all sorts of areas, but in light of what we've learned about Beltran's signing stealing brilliance, and its application in Houston, it does take on a slightly different spin, and IMO an entirely fair subject for speculation..
 

TheDivision

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OK, starting this thread to try to bring up the level of all of the other threads on this MLB crisis...

Rules:

1) Please try to keep your posts towards factual and away from wishful thinking. Admittedly this is hard in an era where so much actual breaking news comes from random Twitter and Reddit accounts, but please
I really like this point. There is so much out there in terms of information but if there is something real that points to sign stealing by the Yankees then I’d like to know.

Also, IMO some one like Morrison who posted and deleted a Tweet is not dependable if he’s going to do that.
 

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terrynever

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Beltran‘s hiring was viewed as Boone insurance in some quarters. Boone still had some doubters heading into 2019. Maybe Cashman was among them.

I was just comparing Cora’s approach to what Crosetti did from the bench. The only difference was electronics, and video cameras available for instant replay.
 

terrynever

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View: https://twitter.com/JohnTrupin/status/1216832903080022019/photo/2


specifically:

"I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs."

LoMo has his issues with Yankees fans, but they made up when he signed with them - of course, he then never got the callup from AAA and ended up being shipped out to Philly. It's fair to wonder if he has a small axe to grind. But even if he does, he's still an inside source.
You would think more players would have backed up Morrison’s claims by now.
 

bankshot1

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Beltran‘s hiring was viewed as Boone insurance in some quarters. Boone still had some doubters heading into 2019. Maybe Cashman was among them.

I was just comparing Cora’s approach to what Crosetti did from the bench. The only difference was electronics, and video cameras available for instant replay.
The point was Terry if the goal is to discuss Yankees potential cheating, then stating there is no there there, and then lauding Cora's cheating seemed counter-productive to the threads goals, And you should actually talk about the Yankees.

And when Beltran was hired by the Yankees to be a special adviser to Cashman, Boone already put up a 100-win season in 2018.
 

soxin6

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It is really too soon to know anything definitive, but the hiring of Beltran in 2018 should be enough for baseball to thouroughly investigate the Yankees. The Yankees had multiple players in 2019 that had career years, but that isn't necessarily due to sign stealing. There is enough there to trigger an investigation and I think it makes sense to wait until that happens to pass any kind of judgment.
 

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LoMo should call the Commissioners Office and share what he knows. Maybe he has. We'll see.

Edit: And if Beltran held anything back, maybe now he'll reconsider since he doesn't have a manager gig anymore.
 

terrynever

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The point was Terry if the goal is to discuss Yankees potential cheating, then stating there is no there there, and then lauding Cora's cheating seemed counter-productive to the threads goals, And you should actually talk about the Yankees.

And when Beltran was hired by the Yankees to be a special adviser to Cashman, Boone already put up a 100-win season in 2018.
100 wins, 8 fewer than Boston. Boone had his critics.

Bringing up Crosetti and then Cora in the same argument was my awkward way of saying the only difference between those two baseball men was technology and a commissioner’s edict not to use that technology in sign-stealing.
 

crow216

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It is really too soon to know anything definitive, but the hiring of Beltran in 2018 should be enough for baseball to thouroughly investigate the Yankees. The Yankees had multiple players in 2019 that had career years, but that isn't necessarily due to sign stealing. There is enough there to trigger an investigation and I think it makes sense to wait until that happens to pass any kind of judgment.
Do you also investigate every other team where a player from Houston went? You know, just because.
 

BaseballJones

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No, just the ones who were considered key players in the scheme
The Atlantic and SNY's baseball guy Andy Martino have reported that the Yankees were involved in video sign stealing pre-2018. From a bleacher report article I linked to earlier today:

"Major League Baseball hasn't opened a sign-stealing investigation into the New York Yankees in the wake of previous comments made by former Boston Red Sox manager Alex Cora, per SNY's Andy Martino.

MLB reaffirmed its previous stance on the Yankees after a press conference clip featuring Cora calling Carlos Beltran, who worked for New York as a special adviser last season, the team's "biggest free-agent acquisition" heading into 2019.

Martino previously reported that MLB wasn't investigating, nor was it aware, of any allegations that the Yankees attempted to steal signs during the 2018 or 2019 seasons.

Martino noted the Yankees did use their video room from 2015 to 2017 to decode signs, and MLB warned them and the Red Sox during the 2017 season that "future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.""

So

(1) We know that the Yankees were involved in similar shenanigans as the Red Sox pre-2018. Also:
(2) They hired one of the key guys in the Astros scheme, Carlos Beltran. And:
(3) We have the Cora press conference from London where he referred to how Beltran works. And:
(4) We have Logan Morrison's claims.

Independently, NONE of these mean that the Yankees were involved in ongoing video sign stealing after Manfred's memo. But given that we know the Yankees were involved in something pre-memo, and there's at least *some* smoke or at least potential smoke post-memo, it's not at all unreasonable to think that maybe, just maybe, their hands aren't quite as clean as some here are protesting they are.

I mean, again, people vilified the Patriots for deflated footballs. And why? Because (1) they had spy gate years earlier, (2) a ball attendant took footballs into the bathroom, (3) there were ridiculous texts from ball attendants from months and months earlier, and (4) footballs measured at halftime were slightly under the legal psi. Never mind that occam's razor dictates that simple laws of physics were responsible. But that was enough to launch a months-long investigation and have the premier player in the NFL suspended four games and cost the Patriots two draft picks.

Different sport, different commissioner, different situation, yes. But there's easily as much smoke surrounding the Yankees here as there was surrounding the Patriots in 2014, if one is going to be objective about it. Might mean nothing, because I'm 100% convinced the Patriots did nothing vis-a-vis deflate gate. But it's not unreasonable to at least.....wonder.
 

Soxy

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Anyone trying to rope the Yankees into this isn't paying attention. This is all about the Astros.

I think it's instructive for people to go back and watch the Red Sox's press conference yesterday. They repeatedly acted like they knew that the Red Sox's punishment won't be very much, and they repeatedly mentioned that they mutually agreed to part ways with Cora only because of the things he did while a member of the Astros. Nothing to do with what he did while employed by the Red Sox. They made it a point to mention that several times.

The Red Sox will probably get a token fine, maybe lose a pick or two. The Yankees won't be investigated. MLB will pin this entirely on those Astros teams. A rogue franchise is a much more appealing story to tell than a league wide scandal.

That may not be the truth of the matter, and I really am in no place to judge what the truth is here, but it's increasingly seeming like that's what is going to happen. The only people who have suffered anything of consequence have been those with direct ties to the Astros, all of whom were explicitly mentioned in the report.

People can point to Athletic articles all that they want, but franchise-altering decisions aren't being made because The Athletic wrote about it. They're being made because the Commissioner of MLB wrote about it.
 

jon abbey

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Very proud of you people.

One thing also worth keeping in mind if and when more info comes out is Cameron Maybin overlapped on the 2017 Astros and 2019 Yankees. I’m not implying anything, just pointing it out.
 

bankshot1

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MLB wants to bury this ASAP. Just as they did when the Sox and Yankees were pointing fingers at each other a couple of years ago.

Now that 3 franchises, including the past 2 world champions have been tarnished, Manfred has no upside to further tarnishing the leagues image with transparency or a public airing of dirty laundry.

MLB is not transparent, and never has been, a lot of stuff stays in the clubhouse.
 

StuckOnYouk

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Agreed Bank. And keep in mind back when fiers and the three ex-sox opened up, I'm not sure they realized they would get the managers fired.
Unless someone REALLY has an axe to grind with a manager I can't imagine a lot of players are going to be running to Drellich.

Merloni's take on the first 90 seconds of the Cora presser in London was that he wanted to let Beltran know he thought the yanks were up to something outside normal sign stealing but who knows.

But again, when the league tells teams in 2018 they can use video rooms to look at their swings or whatever as long as they didnt steal signs in realtime, what did they think would happen?
 
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crow216

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No, just the ones who were considered key players in the scheme
And he was investigated. Listen, go ahead and investigate every team for all I care. I'm not afraid of finding out that the team I like who lost also cheated. That might make me feel better about the Altuve MVP or 2017 loss now because it feels like Judge and the Yankees were straight up robbed. Shit, even the Red Sox are a victim in 2017.

This part of my comment is directed at the @InstaFace comment of yankees posters needed to realize we might have a blind spot. I think in this case, I just have to respectfully disagree. The issue with posters like E5 isn't that they are trying to make a reasonable point about "hey, there could be some truth to these yankees cheating rumors." We can have that debate in probably less than 5 posts. The problem is that they are coming from a place of distrust of the yankees posters on this board. Most people would agree that to post on this board as a "MFY" fan for a decade or more, you'd have to either bite your tongue a lot or just be someone who doesn't view sox fans with a ton of negativity. Otherwise, why be here, right? To me, you can see this as a fun and playful rivalry where you desperately want the other team to lose just so you can poke fun at your rival fan friends and vice versa. Then there's the people who are more like "F YOU AND F EVERYTHING ABOUT THE SOX/YANKEES." E5 is the latter, so is patoflac and a few others who you basically have to avoid in every baseball thread. They will take every opportunity to jump in and make this about something it isn't. I mean, Wingack could have responded right back with "What about manny?" "What about ortiz?" (we're not here to debate Ortiz, I've read your thread, i don't have a strong opinion). In other words, we're as careful as we can be to not start fights here. Half the time I engage, I don't even feel comfortable taking it past one or two cycles.

So, back to the topic at hand. Everyone on this forum knows who the yankees fans are here and you gotta realize we could fart and be accused of bias instead of trusting that someone like wing, a respected poster on the board, has no intention whatsoever to bring the Yankees into the thread or "exonerate" them for 2009's apparent win due to steroids. Which is a whole separate and weird topic. I mean, do we really want to go down the route of who won a WS that might have been aided by players who were taking steroids? We can basically agree every team from 1980 through 2010 might be included there. Have any Yankees fans even defended steroid use of any of their players or said it wasn't a tarnish? It's just so left field that it feels like a political tactic to change the subject.

All of this is why I said a few times that if anyone truly believes the Yankees cheated, hash it out in its own thread. Apparently, I'm triggered for that.
 

crow216

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"I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs."
By film, do we think he means live cameras? I'm confused by that choice of words because if teams are just watching tape after the fact, that's not a problem, is it?
 

jon abbey

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Let's try to keep this to the topic and not about other posters, @crow216. This is about as crazy a situation as this rivalry has ever dealt with (minus a week in fall 2004), so lots of emotion flying around from all directions and not too many facts yet.
 

InstaFace

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By film, do we think he means live cameras? I'm confused by that choice of words because if teams are just watching tape after the fact, that's not a problem, is it?
Let's recall that there are two categories of possibility:

(1) Astros-style cheating, where they decode signs in real time using video, and relay it to hitters for immediate use
(2) Widespread-style cheating, where they decode sign systems using video, share the algorithm, and then communicate that to hitters for when they reach 2nd base, who can then try to communicate to hitters for immediate use

Most of us agree that #1 is way worse than #2 because of the extent to which only the home team can pull it off, so it's an asymmetrical thing. Nobody has alleged that anyone but Houston was doing #1, to my knowledge. Many have now alleged that #2 is widespread, including LoMo's assertion.
 

crow216

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Let's recall that there are two categories of possibility:

(1) Astros-style cheating, where they decode signs in real time using video, and relay it to hitters for immediate use
(2) Widespread-style cheating, where they decode sign systems using video, share the algorithm, and then communicate that to hitters for when they reach 2nd base, who can then try to communicate to hitters for immediate use

Nobody has alleged that anyone but Houston was doing #1, to my knowledge. Many have now alleged that #2 is widespread, including LoMo's assertion.
For (2), are they decoding in game? I think the nuance gets very messy here but lets try it out...

Assumption 1) We are mostly okay, so is the commish, with players on second stealing signs naturally and helping the batter because that is more about intelligence and "part of the game"
Assumption 2) Nobody is okay with decoding signs during a game via electronics and finding ways to communicate them to the batter (even a man on second like in assumption 1)

then

Question 1) Are teams allowed to decode signals after a game by reviewing film?
Question 2) If so, can they share that information with players, who may then use it while on second?
Question 3) If not, why not?
 

edoug

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For (2), are they decoding in game? I think the nuance gets very messy here but lets try it out...

Assumption 1) We are mostly okay, so is the commish, with players on second stealing signs naturally and helping the batter because that is more about intelligence and "part of the game"
Assumption 2) Nobody is okay with decoding signs during a game via electronics and finding ways to communicate them to the batter (even a man on second like in assumption 1)

then

Question 1) Are teams allowed to decode signals after a game by reviewing film?
Question 2) If so, can they share that information with players, who may then use it while on second?
Question 3) If not, why not?
Question 1) Are teams allowed to decode signals after a game by reviewing film? I say Yes
Question 2) If so, can they share that information with players, who may then use it while on second? Yes if it is part of pre-game meetings.
Question 3) If not, why not?
 
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Average Reds

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Question 1) Are teams allowed to decode signals after a game by reviewing film? I say Yes
Question 2) If so, can they share that information with players, who may then use it while on second? No
Question 3) If not, why not? There would need to be technology involved.
My understanding - and I could be completely wrong - is that the MLB prohibition is against real-time (meaning, in-game) use of technology.

The use of video after a game and the sharing of whatever information can be gleaned from that video to players strikes me as perfectly acceptable.

Edit: and I now see that you were editing your answer as I was posting.
 

lexrageorge

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Given that the TV broadcast often shows the catcher's signs, there is no way the MLB could ever prevent teams and players from watching replays of the telecasts. At that point, it's really up to the teams to change up their signals when there is a runner on 2nd.
 

crow216

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My understanding - and I could be completely wrong - is that the MLB prohibition is against real-time (meaning, in-game) use of technology.

The use of video after a game and the sharing of whatever information can be gleaned from that video to players strikes me as perfectly acceptable.

Edit: and I now see that you were editing your answer as I was posting.
I agree with this. And so I don't really understand Logan Morrison's claim that the Sox, Astros, and Yankees were "using film" to decode signals. What else could film mean?
 

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Lex, teams have been anal about switching- even with nobody on sometimes- which is causing a drag on the games
At some point I'd have to think they just have the pitcher and catcher have an earpiece with the pitching coach giving pitch and location.
It would take some getting used to but I think it would really speed the game up quite a bit.
 

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I agree with this. And so I don't really understand Logan Morrison's claim that the Sox, Astros, and Yankees were "using film" to decode signals. What else could film mean?
I think it means that Logan Morrison was talking out of his ass.

I have no doubt he believes that cheating was rampant. I have less certainty that he understands the distinction between what is a legal use of video and what is not. Or even what the current controversy is about.
 

BaseballJones

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Pretty sure the Yankees illegally stole signs electronically. But since all we know is that it came before Manfred's memo (which didn't suddenly make it illegal; it was just a "cut the crap...we mean it!" memo), with no actual evidence that they did it after the memo, they're not gonna get busted.
 
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crow216

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Everybody stole signs using the replay tv. The idea that there would be a tv there and that guys wouldn't look at it and say, oh, it's the second signal the catcher flashes or whatever is just ridiculous.
Totally agree. I doubt the Yankees - or anyone else - were some perfect team who didn't partake in viewing those screens.
 

lexrageorge

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Everybody stole signs using the replay tv. The idea that there would be a tv there and that guys wouldn't look at it and say, oh, it's the second signal the catcher flashes or whatever is just ridiculous.
Can I believe the Yankees, along with 29 other MLB teams, stole signals via the replay monitors? Without a doubt. In fact, I don't think that fact is even in dispute.

Did the Yankees do it after the 2017 memo? Don't know. It wouldn't surprise me that over 81 games, that during at least one of them that 1 or 2 players quietly tried to sneak a few minutes decoding the signs. And if it did happen in NY, then the same thing probably happened in 29 other ballparks as well; we know of at least one of them. But there is no evidence that this was a team-endorsed, widespread practice in the NY clubhouse. And it's not worth the time to investigate every team for what could very well be random and isolated examples.

Obviously, some former Red Sox pitchers knew enough about the practice in Boston to complain about it. Now that it's out there, there's no real reason for a former Yankee (or Dodger or Brewer or Marlin) pitcher not to do the same, but so far no-one has come forward, so I'm guessing any other infraction was relatively isolated.
 

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Given that the TV broadcast often shows the catcher's signs, there is no way the MLB could ever prevent teams and players from watching replays of the telecasts. At that point, it's really up to the teams to change up their signals when there is a runner on 2nd.
Why couldn't MLB just institute a "no filming the catchers signs" policy for TV broadcasts? I love seeing the catcher give signs, try to decipher them and know what's coming, but I certainly don't need to have that information when I watch a game. Make it illegal to film the other team's signals like it's illegal to tape the opposing sideline in the NFL.
 

lexrageorge

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Why couldn't MLB just institute a "no filming the catchers signs" policy for TV broadcasts? I love seeing the catcher give signs, try to decipher them and know what's coming, but I certainly don't need to have that information when I watch a game. Make it illegal to film the other team's signals like it's illegal to tape the opposing sideline in the NFL.
It would be difficult, as the centerfield camera is always going to show the pitcher and catcher, and someone with a big TV could still see the signs. And no way should there be any blurring. Why should I have my experience as a TV viewing fan be impacted?

Teams know how to conceal and/or change signs when there is a runner on 2nd; they've been doing that since before there was TV. Or, they could resort to Marvin the Martian:
 

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The Gray Eagle

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The Atlantic and SNY's baseball guy Andy Martino have reported that the Yankees were involved in video sign stealing pre-2018. From a bleacher report article I linked to earlier today:

"Major League Baseball hasn't opened a sign-stealing investigation into the New York Yankees in the wake of previous comments made by former Boston Red Sox manager Alex Cora, per SNY's Andy Martino.

MLB reaffirmed its previous stance on the Yankees after a press conference clip featuring Cora calling Carlos Beltran, who worked for New York as a special adviser last season, the team's "biggest free-agent acquisition" heading into 2019.

Martino previously reported that MLB wasn't investigating, nor was it aware, of any allegations that the Yankees attempted to steal signs during the 2018 or 2019 seasons.

Martino noted the Yankees did use their video room from 2015 to 2017 to decode signs, and MLB warned them and the Red Sox during the 2017 season that "future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.""

So

(1) We know that the Yankees were involved in similar shenanigans as the Red Sox pre-2018. Also:
(2) They hired one of the key guys in the Astros scheme, Carlos Beltran. And:
(3) We have the Cora press conference from London where he referred to how Beltran works. And:
(4) We have Logan Morrison's claims.
This is a really good post. It answers the question in the thread title: "Did the Yankees also illegally steal signs?" Yes they did.
Did they use the video room to do it? Yes they did.
The only question is whether they stopped illegally stealing signs after 2017 or not.


In addition to the Atlantic article posted above, the original Athletic article that accused the Red Sox of illegally using the video room also makes it clear that the Yankees did it through 2017:

The system the Red Sox employed was not unlike one they had used in previous seasons under a different manager, John Farrell. It was also similar to one the Yankees and other teams had employed before MLB started its crackdown.
As far back as 2015, the Yankees used the video replay room to learn other teams’ sign sequences, multiple sources told The Athletic.
An unnamed former Yankee player talks about using the video room to steal signs and passing the info to teammates
[
“I’m just telling you from a broad perspective, living it, it didn’t feel that wrong,” said one player who used the replay-room system with the Yankees as far back as 2015. “It was there for everyone, that’s all.”
Veteran players who were skilled at picking up tendencies by watching on-field action knew what to look for on video as well.
“If I could figure out the signs from the telecast, I was not going to hold on to that information,” that former Yankee said. “I was going to share that with whomever.”
So the question in the thread title has been answered: Yes. The only relevant question is whether they continued to do it after 2017. Logan Morrison's assertion has already been discussed.

The same Athletic article also includes an accusation that the Yankees illegally used a camera (that they had permission to set up in CF) to steal signs during games in 2018:

During the 2018 season, suspicion of wrongdoing became rampant across baseball, particularly among contending teams. Some teams took steps in self-defense.

Brandon Taubman, the assistant general manager fired by the Astros during the 2019 World Series, confronted a Yankees employee in center field at Yankee Stadium in May of 2018. The Astros at that time believed the Yankees were using a camera to zoom in on the catcher’s signs. According to a source, MLB previously had given the Yankees approval to use the camera, which the team viewed as a coaching tool. The Astros did not push the matter with the league at the time, but during the course of the ongoing current investigation have brought it back to MLB’s attention, another source said. [Editor’s note: This paragraph has been updated to include the information from a source that the Yankees had approval to use the camera.]


This accusation is being discredited by everyone because it's Taubman, who is a total asshole. But unlike the anonymous people who accused the Red Sox, at least his name is attached to the accusation. And as a member of the Astros front office, he surely had a good idea of exactly how cameras could be used to steal signs.

This accusation comes from a source that nobody likes, but it exists. The fact that the Yankees had permission to have the camera there doesn't seem relevant-- they had permission to use the camera, but not to use it to zoom in to steal signs.

No one can prove whether they did or not. But they have been accused at least twice of doing it in 2018, by people who have put their names on those accusations. And even with Taubman gone, the Astros brought this accusation to MLB's attention again, so he clearly wasn't the only one there who believed they were using that camera to steal signs.
 

BaseballJones

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This is a really good post. It answers the question in the thread title: "Did the Yankees also illegally steal signs?" Yes they did.
Did they use the video room to do it? Yes they did.
The only question is whether they stopped illegally stealing signs after 2017 or not.


In addition to the Atlantic article posted above, the original Athletic article that accused the Red Sox of illegally using the video room also makes it clear that the Yankees did it through 2017:





An unnamed former Yankee player talks about using the video room to steal signs and passing the info to teammates
[

So the question in the thread title has been answered: Yes. The only relevant question is whether they continued to do it after 2017. Logan Morrison's assertion has already been discussed.

The same Athletic article also includes an accusation that the Yankees illegally used a camera (that they had permission to set up in CF) to steal signs during games in 2018:



This accusation is being discredited by everyone because it's Taubman, who is a total asshole. But unlike the anonymous people who accused the Red Sox, at least his name is attached to the accusation. And as a member of the Astros front office, he surely had a good idea of exactly how cameras could be used to steal signs.

This accusation comes from a source that nobody likes, but it exists. The fact that the Yankees had permission to have the camera there doesn't seem relevant-- they had permission to use the camera, but not to use it to zoom in to steal signs.

No one can prove whether they did or not. But they have been accused at least twice of doing it in 2018, by people who have put their names on those accusations. And even with Taubman gone, the Astros brought this accusation to MLB's attention again, so he clearly wasn't the only one there who believed they were using that camera to steal signs.
The Patriots had permission to have the camera at the Browns-Bengals game too...just saying.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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SoSH Member
Nov 19, 2008
3,374
It would be difficult, as the centerfield camera is always going to show the pitcher and catcher, and someone with a big TV could still see the signs. And no way should there be any blurring. Why should I have my experience as a TV viewing fan be impacted?

Teams know how to conceal and/or change signs when there is a runner on 2nd; they've been doing that since before there was TV. Or, they could resort to Marvin the Martian:
I really don't think it would be that hard. Just don't show the CF camera when the pitcher is taking his signs. Show the pitcher close-up, show the batter, show other things going on, just don't show the signs. Once the pitcher has his sign, they can go back to the CF camera to show the pitch.
 

scott bankheadcase

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2006
913
hoboken
I really don't think it would be that hard. Just don't show the CF camera when the pitcher is taking his signs. Show the pitcher close-up, show the batter, show other things going on, just don't show the signs. Once the pitcher has his sign, they can go back to the CF camera to show the pitch.
Problem is the Center Field camera will still exist, meaning the feed of it still exists. If that feed exists, someone will have access to use it.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
9,823
Problem is the Center Field camera will still exist, meaning the feed of it still exists. If that feed exists, someone will have access to use it.
Correct.

I don't think it makes sense for MLB to try to create a fool-proof and hacker-proof security system. Remove the feed, and someone will try to find another way to see the signals.

It's better to simply state that inappropriate use of real-time, in-game video will be punished. And then take steps to monitor it as feasibly possible.
 

EvilEmpire

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Apr 9, 2007
10,957
Washington
I don't know how much sense it makes or not, but I do hope they come up with a way to enable pitchers and catchers to exchange signs in a more secure way. Lots of options for that I think, some discussed around here. All the slow-ass sign/countersign stuff has been part of the game for a long, long time, but when the potential means of deciphering those signs is so much greater than before, I think it is better to just move on with a better system.

Hopefully a system that also improves the pace of the game.