#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[Eddie Jurak]

It's interesting that Hubbach ends up by making the forceful comment that it's "blatantly obvious to anyone who knows how NFL operates that cheating went on." You know every once in awhile I wonder if I am missing something that 85% or so of the country is getting about this and maybe Brady did something. But then I read that comment, or I hear Volin say that he thinks the league may be hiding evidence that would implicate Belichick , or I read that there's an owner who says the league is holding back evidence that would prove cheating, or I hear Dungy talking about imaginary bugging devices, or I see Bob Ryan ranting about how the Patriots are always stepping over the line of some unnamed rule, or I read that other teams think the Patriots have been getting away with (again unnamed) crimes for years, and I realize I'm not missing anything because there actually is nothing but the fruitful imaginations of all these accusers. These 85% are blinded by some combination of paranoia and stupidity and hatred and media mobbing to the point that they have total conviction that the Patriots are up to something. And if the facts in front of us don't prove it then we are looking at the facts incorrectly and anyway there are other better hidden facts that they KNOW prove they are right!

As someone who talks with paranoid people on pretty much a daily basis it's all quite familiar. It's just a very strange phenomenon to watch play out this way.

 
We know that the league is not hiding evidence that would implicate Belichick for one simple reason.  If the NFL was holding something over Kraft's head, there would not have been even the tiniest hint of rage from Kraft.  He would have fallen all over himself to accept the punishment and would not have uttered a single word of criticism of the league.  

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Agree with the above. Those are the only two things that could cost RG his job on this.

The first one would prompt a "resignation" after a decent interval.

If the second one were bad enough, he might have to step down right away.

I imagine the league would sue to stop either from happening?  
 
And that the NFL would sooner settle for no suspension, no admission of guilt, and a small fine than allow either one to actually happen.

 

[Bleedred]

I think the "loss" scenario for Goodell would be 1 of 2 things (I don't know that either of these is even possible):
 
1. Berman, having concluded that Goodell is just a mouthpiece for the owners and has no decision authority, starts hauling owners into court.  The owners may want Goodell to shiv Tom Brady, but they for damned sure don't want to be seen as wielding the knife themselves, nor do they want to go anywhere near Judge Berman.  If this becomes a possibility, the owners may conclude that Goodell is more trouble than he is worth - part of his job is to protect them.
 
2. Berman rules (if this is even possible) that the NFL has somehow waived privelege on the Wells report, and that NFL, Paul Weiss, and Exponent must turn over all of their work, draft reports, and communications.  No doubt there is a metric fuckton of stuff that would undermine the report and everyone involved in it.  
 
Both of these seem unlikely even if possible, but either would end with a huge fork sticking out of Goodell's back. 

Yes, but in your scenario, what happens to Goodell?  He rides off into the sunset with $300+ million in his bank account, along with that fork in his back I guess.   

 

[MillarTime]

Yes, but in your scenario, what happens to Goodell?  He rides off into the sunset with $300+ million in his bank account, along with that fork in his back I guess.   

No sure what you're getting at - obviously the court decision will have no impact on the past. Using your logic, Brady can't lose either because he's also filthy rich, married to a supermodel and has four rings.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Yes, but in your scenario, what happens to Goodell?  He rides off into the sunset with $300+ million in his bank account, along with that fork in his back I guess.   

Yep.  Fork and golden parachute.  

 

[Gambler7]

https://twitter.com/wallachlegal/status/635270934702657538
https://twitter.com/wallachlegal/status/635272056326635520

 

[MillarTime]

Let's hope so

 

[DJnVa]

If that happens, is that something that can go back and be fixed, unlike notice?

 

[edmunddantes]

Pash can be fixed, but then we are back here again on others.

If he vacates, I think he adds other un- curable to avoid it coming back again (might not be able to avoid appeal, but avoid the boomerang).

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Unless Wallach has extensive experience with Berman, he's guessing just like Munson.
 
The hearing went far better for Brady's side than for the NFL, and it would be more encouraging if at the same time the judge wasn't pushing settlement so hard.  That he was going harder on the side he thinks is recalcitrant in settlement discussions is also a plausible interpretation.

 

[soxhop411]

Wallach is still at it. Dissecting the documents that were released.

 

[riboflav]

Unless Wallach has extensive experience with Berman, he's guessing just like Munson.
 
The hearing went far better for Brady's side than for the NFL, and it would be more encouraging if at the same time the judge wasn't pushing settlement so hard.  That he was going harder on the side he thinks is recalcitrant in settlement discussions is also a plausible interpretation.

 
Do you know Wallach's background? Have you read Wallach tonight? Do you want to engage Wallach's analysis or do you just want to be dismissive without reason? 

 

[TheoShmeo]

I didn't take that as overly dismissive.  I read DDB to be saying that anyone -- Munson, Wallach, Anyone Else -- predicting that X is going to happen with any degree of certitude based on, whatever factors, including Berman's questions and comments, is really just guessing and shouldn't be expressing his views so strongly.  And DDB is right, for all the well known reasons about how judges often conduct themselves at settlement conferences and frankly, in the case of Wallach, the CBA/deference problem.

 

[JimBoSox9]

Yeah, that tweet is the embodiment of what every lawyer in the thread has been warning against doing up one side and down the other. Now, I think he's 'right' in the same way I think Munson is 'wrong', but they're comprable opinions. "He means it!" is a great thing to hope, but it's not analysis.

 

[Van Everyman]

Thought this was an interesting tweet in the Wallach thread about how Kessler is hoping Berman might rule:

@SportsLawGuy: @WALLACHLEGAL @jgolen Kessler also argued if Berman rules notice was defective (for both coop&deflation),case over& Brady can't be punished

@SportsLawGuy: @SportsLawGuy @WALLACHLEGAL @jgolen argument was that lack of notice can't be "cured" in new arbitration, so game over.

 

[Van Everyman]

Also, I liked this exchange w Borges on why he's so confident about this:

@WALLACHLEGAL: It's obvious now from reading the transcript that Berman is going to rule for Brady based on the exclusion of Pash, which goes to "process"

@RonBorges: @WALLACHLEGAL @dkaplanSBJ Nothing is "obvious'' in this mess. U should know that

@WALLACHLEGAL: @RonBorges @dkaplanSBJ Good point, but this does seem pretty one-sided to me. And exclusion of a material witness is doomsday, respectfully.

Wallach goes on to say that the atty-client privilege argument doesn't fly because Pash is also a senior exec and editor of the report.

Ultimately this tweet shows Wallach knows he might be a bit over his skis tho:

@WALLACHLEGAL: I really hope this doesn't end up rivaling 'Dewey beats Truman' http://t.co/SIyokslyrR

 

[dcmissle]

For Wallach, this is about being "first", and I am really not into it. Nobody should invest much in him. Ron Borges won this exchange

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

For Wallach, this is about being "first", and I am really not into it. Nobody should invest much in him. Ron Borges won this exchange

You take that back!!

 

[dcmissle]

You take that back!!

Well I thought SJH would beat you to this post, but I stand by what I said.

Borges, quite probably, is rooting for an affirmation of the penalty. It would get him a couple of columns on "arrogance" -- for doing it in the first place, then for not abjectly surrendering in order to cut the suspension and save the season. But his motivation does not stop him from being accurate, and on this slender point, he is accurate.

What we are seeing on both sides of the fence is wish casting. It's hilarious because it will affect the outcome not one iota. Nobody is getting a scared and folding because of the musings of some legal hack, which Betman will be immune to as well

 

[simplyeric]

So let's say Berman really does decide the NFL is way off here. He could decide this in multiple grounds all at once, yes?
1. Notice: can't be corrected, but only part of the penalty
2. Process (Pash): can be corrected with new appeals hearing
3. Partiality: can be corrected with new hearing, assuming a different arbitrator
4. Law of Shop: new hearing

I'm NOT saying he WILL decide this way, but that would be a best-case, no? Reasonably appeal resistant, I think? Or can they appeal line items like partiality, to try to reinstate Goodell as arbitrator, etc?

Seems like 1 reduces the penalty (eliminates the non-cooperation portion, of unknown quantity), 2 just allows more testimony/evidence, 3 provides for a new arbitrator, and 4 caps the remaining penalty if the new arbitrator still finds TB guilty of something.

Does that make sense, as a /possible/ scenario? Am I getting that right?

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Oh I know. Just having a little fun on a lazy Sunday morning. Ever Borges can't screw up stating the obvious, that "nothing is obvious in this mess". Besides, we all know the only thing obvious to Ron is Bledsoe got a raw deal.

 

[snowmanny]

And that any quarterback would notice that the ball weighed 20% less than usual.

 

[Oklahoma Jones]

Yes, but in your scenario, what happens to Goodell?  He rides off into the sunset with $300+ million in his bank account, along with that fork in his back I guess.   

 
 

No sure what you're getting at - obviously the court decision will have no impact on the past. Using your logic, Brady can't lose either because he's also filthy rich, married to a supermodel and has four rings.

 
In my head, this conversation went something like:
 
Bleedred:  Wait, wait... what did you mean he'll lose?  Brady's only faking, right?
MillarTime:  You want me to tell you about this or not?
Bleedred:  Who gets Goodell?
MillarTime:  I don't understand...
Bleedred:  Who kills Prince Goodell?!  At the end!  Somebody's gotta do it!  Is it Kraft?  Who?!?
MillarTime:  Nobody.  Nobody kills him.  He lives.
Bleedred:  You mean he wins?!  Jesus, MillarTime, what did you tell me this for?!

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

 
Do you know Wallach's background? Have you read Wallach tonight? Do you want to engage Wallach's analysis or do you just want to be dismissive without reason? 

 
I've discussed the Pash issue a bit in the legal thread.  Any lawyer who tells you it's "obvious" what a judge is going to do from oral argument is overstating.  Every lawyer who has been in court more than a few times has had the experience where they walk out of oral argument feeling great only to get their ass kicked when the opinion comes out.  Munson and Wallach are engaging in the same game that we see before a big game where everyone on the panel has to predict who will win.  And we're doing the same thing here that fans do there -- pumping our fist when they say what we want to hear and calling them idiots when they don't.  And then a few hours later, it turns out about half of them were right.

 

[jacklamabe65]

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter  9m9 minutes ago
Jonathan Kraft: NFL discipline should be 'rethought for the modern era': http://es.pn/1PJfpgM 

 

[mwonow]

 
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter  9m9 minutes ago
Jonathan Kraft: NFL discipline should be 'rethought for the modern era': http://es.pn/1PJfpgM 
 

 
So...at least some players, not necessarily on the Pats (e.g., Sherman) think that RG needs to be reined in. There's been some clear language from a judge criticizing RG's discipline "process". And now a member of the ownership group (granted, J Kraft) is musing aloud about trimming RG's disciplinary authority.
 
If this really is all about ego and power for RG, he's got to be thinking that the last two weeks haven't been good to him. And if his job is to deflect heat from the owners...well, between Berman reaching out towards Mara and the quotes from the two anonymous owners discussing how this affair hasn't been good for the league, then the last two weeks haven't been good, either.
 
Since every time I feel good about this mess, some gut punch comes along, I'll probably wake up tomorrow to find out that Berman has ruled that Brady should serve a full five-week suspension in solitary confinement on Rikers. But until the gut punch comes, I'm enjoying the ways that the world is dumping on RG. 

 

[dcmissle]

It was too much, I guess, to expect Sonny Corleone to STFU for the next 16 days or so.

 

[Stitch01]

Berman isn't going to care what Jon Kraft says, especially when he makes it as a general commentary about league discipline. I thought it was reasonably innocuous the way it was presented even if it is a jab at Goodell.

 

[jacklamabe65]

Stephanie Stradley ‏@StephStradley  21m21 minutes ago
Best part of my @atlblog piece finding out on Twitter who clicked on the head explosive link http://abovethelaw.com/2015/08/a-deflategate-email-exchange-part-ii/ … Man, I warned you.

 

[jimbobim]

It was too much, I guess, to expect Sonny Corleone to STFU for the next 16 days or so.

I disagree here. Every tom dick and harry Owner ,anonymously and named, can spout about the issue in particular and give RG the verbal equivalents of " Well done sir" " Heck of a job nailing those cheatriots". Further, these owners can consistently mischaracterize the proceedings as " The player suing the NFL" when the NFL filed for affirmation. 
 
Frankly I'm surprised we haven't seen more of a defense of the "brand" from the Krafts since that press conferece " no faith" firebombing. I realize they don't want to trip up on the bylaws and get in more trouble but JKraft's comments were very very tame. 

 

[mwonow]

 
Stephanie Stradley ‏@StephStradley  21m21 minutes ago
Best part of my @atlblog piece finding out on Twitter who clicked on the head explosive link http://abovethelaw.com/2015/08/a-deflategate-email-exchange-part-ii/ … Man, I warned you.
 
 

 
Can you please link the post? I make it a practice to click through to anything presenting a view that I believe has merit - which means I've clicked through to Ms. Stradley, Dan Wetzel and Mike Florio a lot over the past few weeks!

 

[jacklamabe65]

 
Can you please link the post? I make it a practice to click through to anything presenting a view that I believe has merit - which means I've clicked through to Ms. Stradley, Dan Wetzel and Mike Florio a lot over the past few weeks!

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/08/a-deflategate-email-exchange-part-ii/

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

Oh I know. Just having a little fun on a lazy Sunday morning. Ever Borges can't screw up stating the obvious, that "nothing is obvious in this mess". Besides, we all know the only thing obvious to Ron is Bledsoe got a raw deal.

And that Mike Sando from the Tacoma News Tribune is one hell of a writer. So great, in fact, that his writing should be copied and redistributed to other communities.

 

[Myt1]

 
Do you know Wallach's background? Have you read Wallach tonight? Do you want to engage Wallach's analysis or do you just want to be dismissive without reason? 

Between two threads, we've got probably 100+ posts of reasons.  This doesn't really warrant very much more.

 

[E5 Yaz]

espn.com: Joe Thomas, the Browns All-Pro OL weighed in on Deflategate, telling ESPN's Pat McManamon: "I would equate what [Brady] did to driving 66 in a 65 speed zone and getting the death penalty."

 

[PedroKsBambino]

espn.com: Joe Thomas, the Browns All-Pro OL weighed in on Deflategate, telling ESPN's Pat McManamon: "I would equate what [Brady] did to driving 66 in a 65 speed zone and getting the death penalty."

 
And, just to note it, it's really more like a car that Brady has sat in (but which there is no evidence he was even in at the time the ticket was issued) being clocked going a speed somewhere between 60-70 in a 65 zone.

 

[simplyeric]

espn.com: Joe Thomas, the Browns All-Pro OL weighed in on Deflategate, telling ESPN's Pat McManamon: "I would equate what [Brady] did to driving 66 in a 65 speed zone and getting the death penalty."

If Brady were being sentenced to, you know, death, then ok.

Seems more like getting 3 months house arrest, as opposed to 'death'.

But anyway,..

 

[E5 Yaz]

If Brady were being sentenced to, you know, death, then ok.

Seems more like getting 3 months house arrest, as opposed to 'death'.

But anyway,..

 
You really have a difficult time grasping the meaning of what people try to say, don't you?

 

[OnWisc]

If Brady were being sentenced to, you know, death, then ok.

Seems more like getting 3 months house arrest, as opposed to 'death'.

But anyway,..

And if Brady were being sentenced for, you know, going 66 in a 65?

 

[dcmissle]

The absence of hard news is now reflected in the thread. Joe Thomas is awesome, but we're splicing his hypothetical? Then we have a guy demanding what amounts to loyalty oaths because we lawyers are not on board with this being a slam dunk

August 31 seems very far away.

 

[simplyeric]

Chill, guys.
Just saying that analogies to the death penalty are pretty hyperbolic.
Apologies to speeding are not.
Save your fury.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

The lack of public support for Brady and the union by other players around the league throughout this whole process has really dumbfounded me. Players like Sherman and Thomas seem to get it though.

 

[Gorton Fisherman]

The lack of public support for Brady and the union by other players around the league throughout this whole process has really dumbfounded me. Players like Sherman and Thomas seem to get it though.

Certainly the public at large has not been terribly supportive of Brady during this pseudo-scandal. Though I am curious whether public opinion might be shifting at all towards Brady over the past few weeks, with the NFL's case getting repeatedly hammered in Berman's courtroom, and Goodell and other league reps generally having been made to look like a bunch of arrogant, self-entitled a-holes.

Players, on the other hand, seem to be in Brady's corner to a surprising degree, with even well-known Brady antagonists like Suggs, Pollard, and Sherman publicly expressing outrage about the way he has been treated. If you buy Bert Breer's reportage, all of the players he's talked to have been supportive of Brady. I'm sure part of this is just "worker vs. The Man" type of sentiment, but I'm stll a bit surprised by it, especially given the oft-reported perception of Brady as a bit of a privileged pretty-boy among other players.

 

[Sportsbstn]

 
And, just to note it, it's really more like a car that Brady has sat in (but which there is no evidence he was even in at the time the ticket was issued) being clocked going a speed somewhere between 60-70 in a 65 zone.

 
Thats the problem with the NFL guys making these comments, because everyone hears the 2nd part, but then automatically assumes that Brady did "something" with the balls, which has NEVER been proven or anything even close.  So then it turns into Brady is being over penalized for deflating balls scheme, as opposed to Brady is being over penalized because the NFL is making shit up left right and center and has not put a single piece of tangible proof in regards to Brady on the table.

 

[djbayko]

 
Thats the problem with the NFL guys making these comments, because everyone hears the 2nd part, but then automatically assumes that Brady did "something" with the balls, which has NEVER been proven or anything even close.  So then it turns into Brady is being over penalized for deflating balls scheme, as opposed to Brady is being over penalized because the NFL is making shit up left right and center and has not put a single piece of tangible proof in regards to Brady anyone on the table.

Fixed

Edit: Actually, they did prove that NFL officials were stealing game balls and the Colts were breaking the rules of game ball prep. I should have said "anyone employed by the Patriots."

 

[ifmanis5]

Been out of the country for two weeks and followed this thread with a Dungy-like frenzied paranoia. Thanks to all who updated and participated- this is by far the best place to follow this bizarre saga. There was no need to go anywhere else.
 
This story has gone in so many bizarre directions but one thing is more clear now then it was from the beginning: when it comes to the NEP, everyone- fans, media, players, coaches, owners, the "independent" counsel and of course the league office- have an axe to grind so large it fills the gaping hole of where the NFL's integrity used to be. Logic, proportion, sanity and common sense are so far gone that it's up to Judge Berman to haul it back into the courtroom. Hope he can finally be the adult we've all been waiting for and call this charade for what it is.

 

[Ed Hillel]

The lack of public support for Brady and the union by other players around the league throughout this whole process has really dumbfounded me. Players like Sherman and Thomas seem to get it though.

You think they want to say anything to piss off a guy who may be participating in a scheme to frame the game's biggest star? The anonymous player poll from ESPN recently pretty much said it all.

 

[Reverend]

Chill, guys.
Just saying that analogies to the death penalty are pretty hyperbolic.
Apologies to speeding are not.
Save your fury.

 
I think literally nobody does not understand that the analogy to the death penalty is hyperbolic. But there is a point to the hyperbole which I think you also understand even if you do not like it, right?
 
Let's all not derail things over something that everyone clearly understands, yes?

 

[bakahump]

The lack of public support for Brady and the union by other players around the league throughout this whole process has really dumbfounded me. Players like Sherman and Thomas seem to get it though.

You would have thought (and maybe it has happened but I simply haven't heard it) that the NFLPA would be out beating the bushes of the NFL Player Reps and "other high Profile players"  drumming up support.
 
By explaining "look you may hate Brady and the Patriots.....but this is really about YOUR Rights...not Toms or the Pats....You need to help us help you".

 

[AB in DC]

This may be happening behind closed doors.  Your average player would see no reason to speak publicly on this one way or another, but might be giving support in other ways.