#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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bakahump

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One way I think the Pats "Win a Little" is actually going to court.
 
A "Court rules for Patriots"  or "NFL Overstepped on Unproven Charges" splashed across 100000 twitters is the only way 75% of the public will stop and say "huh maybe this was all ridulous".
 

Silverdude2167

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soxhop411 said:
How is there insider buzz. The appeal hasn't been heard. Not that it is suprising but it shows how stupid the process even is.
 

DJnVa

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Silverdude2167 said:
How is there insider buzz. The appeal hasn't been heard. Not that it is suprising but it shows how stupid the process even is.
 
Cole is calling himself an "insider" and giving you the buzz.
 

ivanvamp

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bakahump said:
One way I think the Pats "Win a Little" is actually going to court.
 
A "Court rules for Patriots"  or "NFL Overstepped on Unproven Charges" splashed across 100000 twitters is the only way 75% of the public will stop and say "huh maybe this was all ridulous".
 
If a truly independent judge rules in favor of Brady, especially if it's a decisive ruling and not something on a technicality, then yeah, people should change their minds a little.  
 
Question:  Suppose Brady takes Goodell to court and wins.  Would Goodell appeal the verdict? 
 

Harry Hooper

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pappymojo said:
"because they got caught."
 
True, but I don't think Clayton meant it that way. The interview will be posted on WEEI.com I'm sure, so you can decide for yourself.
 
DrewDawg said:
 
As opposed to what? Not getting caught and getting a small one?
 
 
 
No, getting caught and getting a punishment in line with the infraction/precedent.
 

Ferm Sheller

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ivanvamp said:
 
If a truly independent judge rules in favor of Brady, especially if it's a decisive ruling and not something on a technicality, then yeah, people should change their minds a little.  
 
 
 
Especially if the Opinion is filled with juicy quotes detrimental to the League.
 

njnesportsfan

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ivanvamp said:
 
If a truly independent judge rules in favor of Brady, especially if it's a decisive ruling and not something on a technicality, then yeah, people should change their minds a little.  
 
Question:  Suppose Brady takes Goodell to court and wins.  Would Goodell appeal the verdict? 
To whom? To the Supreme Court? Goodell could also dissolve the league and get himeself in line at the unemployment office. If he loses in court, RG will be finished, and done. I mean "DONE". 
 

johnmd20

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ivanvamp said:
 
If a truly independent judge rules in favor of Brady, especially if it's a decisive ruling and not something on a technicality, then yeah, people should change their minds a little.  
 
Question:  Suppose Brady takes Goodell to court and wins.  Would Goodell appeal the verdict? 
 
I don't think anyone with a Patriot hate will change their mind, no matter what future ruling comes down. Minds have been made up. 
 

Stitch01

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No.  He still has the Pats pick and has permanently labeled them cheaters.  That's enough to satisfy bloodlust and make it so ROG never has to hear about how he was lenient with the Pats again.  I doubt he's thrilled Brady is caught up in all this anyways, he'd much rather have been able to suspend BB for a year.
 

DJnVa

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Harry Hooper said:
 
No, getting caught and getting a punishment in line with the infraction/precedent.
 
Maybe we're just arguing semantics. But the second part of each statement is exactly the same:
 
"Huge punishment because they were caught"
 
and
 
"Punishment in line with precedent because they were caught"
 
There's no differentiation saying why one is HUGE and one isn't, because all he's saying is they were caught. Well, yeah. If they weren't there'd be thousands of fewer posts here.
 
I'm not sure what Clayton was saying.
 

ifmanis5

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drleather2001 said:
ESPN is Pravda. Next they will be reporting that the Seahawks won the Super Bowl last year.
Agreed. They know that trolling the Pats = eyeballs. They also want to keep the NFL and Roger happy. Plus most of their analysts are former players and executives that had beefs with the Pats. It's a perfect storm for them. Literally no incentive for them to throw out an opposing viewpoint.
 

steveluck7

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Stitch01 said:
No.  He still has the Pats pick and has permanently labeled them cheaters.  That's enough to satisfy bloodlust and make it so ROG never has to hear about how he was lenient with the Pats again.  I doubt he's thrilled Brady is caught up in all this anyways, he'd much rather have been able to suspend BB for a year.
Really? So why did he suspend him (or authorize TV to suspend him) for 4 games?  he could just as easily have punished him with a fine and been done with that side of things.
 

njnesportsfan

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Stitch01 said:
No.  He still has the Pats pick and has permanently labeled them cheaters.  That's enough to satisfy bloodlust and make it so ROG never has to hear about how he was lenient with the Pats again.  I doubt he's thrilled Brady is caught up in all this anyways, he'd much rather have been able to suspend BB for a year.
But I strongly believe, if RG loses in court (not on a technicality), owners will kick him out. You simply cannot have a clown running a league and get yelled at by judges in courts repeatedly. They will kick him out. 
 

lexrageorge

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Jinhocho said:
Bob Ryan burying the pats especially BB on ESPN radio...
You mean Belichick, the guy that was exonerated by the Wells report? Ryan really has lost it in his old age.
 

Reverend

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There is no Rev said:


Right. But alternately, if your employer tries to fuck you over beyond the rules stipulated in whatever agreement is controlling on your employment, you fight, yeah?
 
One of the striking things about this situation, to me anyway, is that the Patriots could be guilty but the NFL still out of line. There doesn't seem to be enough consideration of that. I mean, Missouri just found their process to be illegal, for example.
 
Boom--from the NFLPA letter.
 


The CBA grants the Commissioner—and only the Commissioner—the authority to impose conduct detrimental discipline on players. CBA, Art. 46, § 1(a); id., App. A, ¶ 15. This express CBA mandate is further confirmed by the “law of the shop.” See Rice Art. 46 Appeal Decision (“Rice”) at 15; Bounty Art. 46 Appeal Decision (“Bounty”) at 4. Indeed, whereas the CBA expressly authorizes the Commissioner to delegate his authority to serve as Hearing Officer over Article 46 appeals, after consultation with the NFLPA, it contains no corresponding provision authorizing the Commissioner to delegate his exclusive role to impose conduct detrimental discipline to you or anyone else. You have no authority to impose discipline on Mr. Brady under the CBA, and such discipline must therefore be set aside.1
 
1 We also note that one arbitrator has previously found that you, in particular, are unfamiliar with proper NFL discipline procedures and have no role in imposing discipline. Peterson Art. 46 Appeal at 7. 
 

Second, Mr. Brady’s discipline cannot be sustained for the additional reason that it contravenes the governing CBA requirement of fair and consistent treatment. See Rice at 16; Bounty at 4. Your decision to suspend Mr. Brady for four games—i.e., one-quarter of the NFL season—for his alleged “general[] aware[ness] of the actions of the Patriots’ employees involved in the deflation of the footballs” and “failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the [Wells] investigation” is grossly inconsistent with the League’s prior disciplinary treatment of similar alleged conduct, including lack of cooperation and not complying with League rules regarding game balls or other equipment.
 
2 The law of the shop from Bounty, Rice, and other proceedings requires that this unfair and inconsistent treatment of Mr. Brady—an exponential change in the severity of the punishment without notice or due process—be vacated. Indeed, no player in the history of the NFL has ever received anything approaching this level of discipline for similar behavior—a change in sanctions squarely forbidden by the CBA and the law of the shop. Third, Mr. Brady’s discipline is premised solely upon the Wells Report, which contains insufficient evidence to find that Mr. Brady committed any violation of NFL rules. Indeed, the Report is wrought with unsupported speculation regarding Mr. Brady’s purported knowledge of, and involvement with, two Patriots employees’ purported conduct, and grasps at dubious, contradictory and mischaracterized circumstantial evidence merely to conclude that it is “more probable than not” that Mr. Brady was “generally aware of” “inappropriate activities.” Report at 17. Mr. Wells conceded that “there is less direct
evidence linking [Mr.] Brady to tampering activities than either [Messrs.] McNally or Jastremski.” Id. The Report—based on speculative possibilities piled on top of speculative possibilities and a disregard of contrary evidence—is a legally inadequate basis upon which to impose this unprecedented discipline.

 
 
 
 

Stitch01

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steveluck7 said:
Really? So why did he suspend him (or authorize TV to suspend him) for 4 games?  he could just as easily have punished him with a fine and been done with that side of things.
Because the report singled out Tom Brady, the media focused on Tom Brady's culpability, and Rog is less than a year from being skewered on lenient player punishment.   Fining Tom Brady doesnt satisfy the "Rog is too easy on the Pats contingent".  Suspending him then losing in court isnt the same as not suspending Brady at the beginning from a PR standpoint.  If he loses in court, that will be that.
 
I stand by the statement that he wishes the report had said that BB was the one culpable, he'd have banned him for a year and been thrilled about doing it. 
 

E5 Yaz

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steveluck7 said:
Really? So why did he suspend him (or authorize TV to suspend him) for 4 games?  he could just as easily have punished him with a fine and been done with that side of things.
 
I'll never understand this part. Say what you will about him, but Tom Brady: Criminal Mastermind just doesn't add up
 

Harry Hooper

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Stitch01 said:
 
I stand by the statement that he wishes the report had said that BB was the one culpable, he'd have banned him for a year and been thrilled about doing it. 
 
This was definitely a big part of his "spare no expense" approach to the investigation.
 

Helmet Head

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I generally really like Bob Ryan.  That being said, Ryan is big on picking the scab of spygate.  I have heard him a few times the last couple years before any of this even happened.  He does not care for how spygate went down and how people have seemingly forgot about it around here.  He doesn't care for BB and never has.   The fact that he is burying him now is not shocking.   Everyone has an agenda.
 

Reverend

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MarcSullivaFan said:
The court of appeals--which is were the Peterson case is at the moment.
 
NFLPA letter to Vincent here.
 
One never knows how a judge will rule, but it looks like a solid case for CBA violations on multiple different types of grounds.
 

MarcSullivaFan

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There is no Rev said:
 
NFLPA letter to Vincent here.
 
One never knows how a judge will rule, but it looks like a solid case for CBA violations on multiple different types of grounds.
I was responding to a question about where Goodell could take an appeal if he loses to Brady in federal court.

The letter is very good and I'm feeling more bullish about Brady's chances of eventually having Goodell's decision (after Brady's CBA "appeal") vacated by a federal court.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Stitch01 said:
Because the report singled out Tom Brady, the media focused on Tom Brady's culpability, and Rog is less than a year from being skewered on lenient player punishment.   Fining Tom Brady doesnt satisfy the "Rog is too easy on the Pats contingent".  Suspending him then losing in court isnt the same as not suspending Brady at the beginning from a PR standpoint.  If he loses in court, that will be that.
 
I stand by the statement that he wishes the report had said that BB was the one culpable, he'd have banned him for a year and been thrilled about doing it. 
 
Agreed.
 
I think it also would have been difficult to let Brady off the hook - basically acknowledging that there was no evidence of anything untoward going past Tweedledee and Tweedledum - and then hit the Patriots with the biggest draft pick penalty of all time.  The idea that the Patriots should be harshly punished because this "happened on their watch" is easier to swallow if the star QB and face of the franchise is implicated, not just two lowly DoritoDinks.
 

DJnVa

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Well the rebuttal came out yesterday we kept hearing from talking heads about how, while there may be good stuff in there, it's overshadowed by a stupid assertion about weight loss.
 
This appeal letter has no stupid assertions. Why aren't the same talking heads discussing its merits?
 

Reverend

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MarcSullivaFan said:
I was responding to a question about where Goodell could take an appeal if he loses to Brady in federal court.

The letter is very good and I'm feeling more bullish about Brady's chances of eventually having Goodell's decision (after Brady's CBA "appeal") vacated by a federal court.
 
I wasn't correcting you or disagreeing with you, counselor--just adding info. ;)
 
And yeah, they have viable positions on violations of both policy and practice beyond the evidentiary issue. And a threat for good measure.
 

tims4wins

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DrewDawg said:
Well the rebuttal came out yesterday we kept hearing from talking heads about how, while there may be good stuff in there, it's overshadowed by a stupid assertion about weight loss.
 
This appeal letter has no stupid assertions. Why aren't the same talking heads discussing its merits?
 
I love how this contrasts against the release of the Wells report where they took the overall finding without caring about any of the shady details, e.g., which gauge. Media has been pro-NFL from the start.
 

grsharky7

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Lester Munson says Brady's appeal can backfire because he'll have to surrender his phone this time.  He also has been beating the drum that the appeal has no chance.  I know ESPN trots him out on legal issues, but who is this clown?  I'm not terribly up to speed on the legal world is he legit or just someone looking for face time on TV?
 

jsinger121

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grsharky7 said:
Lester Munson says Brady's appeal can backfire because he'll have to surrender his phone this time.  He also has been beating the drum that the appeal has no chance.  I know ESPN trots him out on legal issues, but who is this clown?  I'm not terribly up to speed on the legal world is he legit or just someone looking for face time on TV?
 
http://www.medill.northwestern.edu/about/faculty-and-staff/faculty/lester-munson.html
 
He is brutal. Brady and the NFLPA have Jeffrey Kessler. Enough said.
 

Jinhocho

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Typing this from the car. Ryan blamed bb for spygate and creating an arrogant push the envelope culture that defines the patriots. Said be no big deal if others but it is because of the pats cheating and arrogance that they are held to a different standard. brought up dansby and said how its always something w this team. Said Brady definitely guilty and knows it. Caught w hand in cookie jar and lied now stuck playing hand. Said TB lied about McNally.
 

OnWisc

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tims4wins said:
 
I love how this contrasts against the release of the Wells report where they took the overall finding without caring about any of the shady details, e.g., which gauge. Media has been pro-NFL from the start.
The media has been pro "there is something to see here!" from the start. It's their livelihood. "Nothing to see here" does not a good hot sportz take make.
 

EricFeczko

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tims4wins said:
 
I love how this contrasts against the release of the Wells report where they took the overall finding without caring about any of the shady details, e.g., which gauge. ESPN  Media has been pro-NFL from the start.
We've seen plenty of articles that poked holes in the Wells report when it came out. Take a look at the good guys thread for examples: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/89320-the-new-list-the-good-guys-updated/

The WaPo, for the most part (there are exceptions), has been pretty good about covering the reports. The nytimes had a fair take as well. Even Florio at PFT was ripping the NFL.


EDIT: For example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/deflate-gate-despite-history-of-patriots-and-nfl-is-a-scandal-thats-losing-air/2015/01/28/810d52a4-a738-11e4-a06b-9df2002b86a0_story.html

You can always google it.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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grsharky7 said:
Lester Munson says Brady's appeal can backfire because he'll have to surrender his phone this time.  He also has been beating the drum that the appeal has no chance.  I know ESPN trots him out on legal issues, but who is this clown?  I'm not terribly up to speed on the legal world is he legit or just someone looking for face time on TV?
 
He's a law school graduate who can't practice law anymore.  And he takes controversial stances, which makes for compelling television.  Nothing he says should be given any weight, however.
 

Leather

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grsharky7 said:
Sounds like he has spent a lot of time reporting and not practicing law.  Ok I feel better.
 
Well, I don't think his lack of practice that the issue so much as he knows what his employer wants him to say.   Law professors are asked to opine on legal matters all the time, and many of them are considered experts in their respective fields.  
 
This guy just happens to be a hack.
 

In Vino Vinatieri

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grsharky7 said:
Lester Munson says Brady's appeal can backfire because he'll have to surrender his phone this time.  He also has been beating the drum that the appeal has no chance.  I know ESPN trots him out on legal issues, but who is this clown?  I'm not terribly up to speed on the legal world is he legit or just someone looking for face time on TV?
 
Someone upthread demolished him with a link about the Barry Bonds case and how that was a legal victory for the prosecutors despite losing on almost every count. It was also said that they have a legal obligation to the bar association to physically beat the crap out of anyone who is as bad as Munson or likes Munson or even talks about Munson, so you may want to take some steps to protect yourself and your loved ones. I think.
 
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
 

tims4wins

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OnWisc said:
The media has been pro "there is something to see here!" from the start. It's their livelihood. "Nothing to see here" does not a good hot sportz take make.
 
Good point
 
Edit: that being said, IMO "NFL orchestrates sting operation against one of its member teams" is juicier than "team took air out of footballs, which no one gives a shit about anyway", but clearly I/we are in the minority
 

lexrageorge

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grsharky7 said:
Lester Munson says Brady's appeal can backfire because he'll have to surrender his phone this time.  He also has been beating the drum that the appeal has no chance.  I know ESPN trots him out on legal issues, but who is this clown?  I'm not terribly up to speed on the legal world is he legit or just someone looking for face time on TV?
First, every other legal analyst has made it clear that there is no way for Brady's punishment to get worse as the result of the appeal.  So there is no way for the appeal to "backfire".  Brady is under no obligation to surrender his phone during the appeal hearing.  Of course, Goodell or the arbitrator could take that into consideration when ruling on the appeal.  But, as been said elsewhere, Munson is not a reliable legal analyst. 
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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BleacherReport has uncovered some footage of Bob Kraft suggesting his organization's next steps relative to Goodell and Vincent:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UceGF3M56bE
 
(i'm just waiting for the eventual spoof using the "Hitler in the Bunker" clip, with Goodell as Hitler obviously)
 

E5 Yaz

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DrewDawg said:
Well the rebuttal came out yesterday we kept hearing from talking heads about how, while there may be good stuff in there, it's overshadowed by a stupid assertion about weight loss.
 
This appeal letter has no stupid assertions. Why aren't the same talking heads discussing its merits?
 
ESPN has 15.2 billion reasons why
 

dcmissle

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TB's most likely path to even complete victory lies through two trails that are technical. 1. General awareness does not constitute a violation 2. He did not really impede the investigation by refusing to surrender cell records.

Most lawyers -- and Kessler is a good one - - focus on the most solid and direct paths to victory. Judges like to decide cases that way too.

A victory along these lines I will take. It would not do a lot to change the opinion of TB.
 

doc

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
He's a law school graduate who can't practice law anymore.  And he takes controversial stances, which makes for compelling television.  Nothing he says should be given any weight, however.
 
Given Mr. Munson’s woeful history with the Illinois Attorney Registration And Disciplinary Commission , an agency of the Illinois Supreme Court that investigates “allegations of misconduct by lawyers” and prosecutes “the cases where a lawyer's misconduct suggests a threat to the public or to the integrity of the legal profession,” and his continued misrepresentations of the facts of the case, it is difficult to understand what qualifies him as a legal expert and what constitutes “closely following the case.”
.
Equally confusing are both Mr. Munson’s assertion that he is “baffled by the conduct of Mike Nifong” and the mock disdain he shows in this comment: “As a lawyer and as a journalist, I am appalled at what he did . . .” With a penchant for misconduct that is well documented by the Illinois Attorney Registration And Disciplinary Commission, including “conduct which is prejudicial to the administration of justice,” one might expect that Munson could relate quite well to Defendant Nifong’s actions and current difficulties with the North Carolina State Bar. With regard to Defendant Nifong, one might expect that the combination of Munson's personal experience and self promoted ability "to put criminal charges and civil litigation in the sports industry into a context that gives new insights" would not leave him baffled nor appalled.
.
After his admittance to the Illinois State Bar in 1976 and practicing law for 13 years, it appears Munson, facing multiple charges of misconduct occurring during a time he was already on probation by the Ilinois Bar, voluntarily agreed to discontinue practicing law. As a mitigating factor in his misconduct, Munson pointed to his alcoholism. In its 1991 decision to suspend Munson’s law license because of his continued misconduct while on probation, the Disciplinary Commission wrote:
“On September 30, 1986, Respondent was suspended from the practice of law for three years and until further order of the Court, and this suspension was stayed and Respondent was placed on probation for three years with conditions. In re Munson, No. 85 CH 57, M.R. 4029. Respondent's misconduct included his neglect of three client matters as well as misstatements regarding the status of two of the client matters. Respondent's misconduct was attributable to his alcoholism.”
.
“In October 1989, Respondent discontinued practicing. Respondent has no current intention to return to the practice of law.
http://liestoppers.blogspot.com/2007/03/lester-munson-legal-expert.html
 

jsinger121

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dcmissle said:
TB's most likely path to even complete victory lies through two trails that are technical. 1. General awareness does not constitute a violation 2. He did not really impede the investigation by refusing to surrender cell records.

Most lawyers -- and Kessler is a good one - - focus on the most solid and direct paths to victory. Judges like to decide cases that way too.

A victory along these lines I will take. It would not do a lot to change the opinion of TB.
 
Agree. People across the nation aren't going to like TB12 but who cares. 
 

Average Reds

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grsharky7 said:
Lester Munson says Brady's appeal can backfire because he'll have to surrender his phone this time.  He also has been beating the drum that the appeal has no chance.  I know ESPN trots him out on legal issues, but who is this clown?  I'm not terribly up to speed on the legal world is he legit or just someone looking for face time on TV?
 
Lester Munson is a contra-indicator.
 
If I remember correctly, I first heard of him back in the 90s when he was predicting OJ's conviction. More recently, he was talking about how the crack legal team for Aaron Hernandez seemed to be getting the better of the prosecution in his murder trial.
 
If history is any guide, Brady will emerge from his hearing as the first Player-Commissioner of the NFL.