#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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Silverdude2167

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twibnotes said:
I've seen this argument a couple times and it's idiotic. No one tries to false start. No one plans to pass interfere. Apples and unicorns.
The Seahawks entire secondary play is based off the idea the refs won't call pi every play. What are you talking about?
 

BroodsSexton

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twibnotes said:
I've seen this argument a couple times and it's idiotic. No one tries to false start. No one plans to pass interfere. Apples and unicorns.
 
No one tries to pass interfere?  Are you serious?
 

E5 Yaz

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RedOctober3829 said:
Yaz, the balls don't go back to the teams before the game. The balls go in for testing then head straight to the ball boys before the game.
 
I got that from Mort:
 
The game balls provided to each team for preparation were required to be inspected and approved by referee Walt Anderson two hours and 15 minutes before kickoff before they were returned to each team.
 
http://espn.go.com/boston/story/_/id/12202450/nfl-says-new-england-patriots-had-inflated-footballs-afc-championship-game
 

Comfortably Lomb

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E5 Yaz said:
 
That's a good question. I guess I accept that as part and parcel of being the NFL. Honestly, I do.
 
But even in a league where that happens, that's never going to create the uproar as a team that allegedly does something to circumvent the on-field rules. As Mike Reiss wrote tonight, if the Patriots are found to have done this intentionally, they need to be held accountable ... regardless of how minor a rule it is.
 
Should wins be voided or BB fired or they not be allowed to play in the Super Bowl? Of course not; that's lunacy. But it also would be wrong to brush it aside as if they did nothing wrong. Whether we like it or not, the Patriots are in the crosshairs of those who watch the NFL and are not their fans.
 
Oh, pu-lease. I swear to god the NFL has brainwashed a large portion of its fans into thinking the sport is some sort of holy bastion of integrity.
 
This is the kind of nonsense a memo should be sent out over, to all teams, reiterating the proper PSI guidelines. And if the NFL had its shit together it would have buried this days ago. Instead we have catnip for sports media who think they're actual journalists and can prove it over something this inane.
 

genoasalami

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riboflav said:
I imagine if it can be proven BB had a direct hand in intentionally deflating the balls, Goodell will suspend him for the SB. 
 
 
I was just going to post this ...if the league can wrap up the investigation in short order and they find that the team deliberately deflated footballs to gain a competitive advantage there will be ramifications ...and I believe BB will be suspended for the SB and perhaps for a portion or all of next year....think about this ....can you imagine Goodell presenting BB and Kraft the SB trophy after they knowingly cheated??? Not gonna happen...
 

kevmyster

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twibnotes said:
I've seen this argument a couple times and it's idiotic. No one tries to false start. No one plans to pass interfere. Apples and unicorns.
They're both breaking the rules. Spare me the sanctimony. And players most certainly break the in-game rules intentionally from time to time. It's better to get flagged for PI and put the ball on the 1 than it is to give up a gimme touchdown, for example.
 

Two Youks

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Some disparate thoughts:

Part of the meta blame lies with the League in relying on people employed by home teams to safeguard and dispense the balls during games. Once they've been scraped and set to the QB's liking, league officials should be in charge of them. Maybe they can make a new referee position where a guy on each sideline has something like those new Surface docks/caddies where the balls are stored.

Someone else mentioned it, but how embarrassing is it that a LB who hardly touches the ball noticed it when people who handle the balls between every play didn't? It calls into play their competence and if they did the pre-game checks at all. If the league is distraught, it should be due to that.

I'm pissed that this has become a thing simply because the Patriots are involved. You can bet that other QB's not named Aaron Rodgers are doing it, too. Indeed, given Rodgers' comments, it seems like a rule that is likely violated regularly, but because the actual competitive advantage it gives is negligible, the usual response is to simply switch to compliant balls. If the discrepancy is even noticed by the league's crack teams of super observant referees, that is.

I'm in the camp where they likely tried to cheat, but the rule is moronic. In a pass happy league that does everything it can to guarantee that QB's can score points every game, why is ball inflation even an issue?
 

NomosRubber

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wiffleballhero said:
So the real smoking gun here will be if the league says that the balls were tested before the game and then on the mid game re-test they failed.
 
Without that pre-game test it still seems to me that before the entire planets gets too worked up about this, most of the responsiblity falls on the refs. to make sure the equipment is up to code.
 
And since they're not required to test the balls, they probably give them all the "feel" test and declare them acceptable.  Very possible to pass with 10.5-11 PSI inflation versus 12.5.  As others have said, little difference in play/feel in these balls.  The real effect on play is miniscule. 
 
But the transgression is real and punishment must be applied.  The significance of the offense is represented by the specified punishment (a fine of $25,000 and unnamed other measures).  Seems like a misdemeanor to me.
 

wiffleballhero

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It is funny that the obvious way the story could both be contained and explained is that it has nothing to do with Belichick but it is all on Brady. Brady, not being one to care about PSI but one to be really particular about the feel of the ball, is the mastermind of the grand plot.
1 game suspension!
 

crystalline

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P'tucket said:
If there's one thing on Earth that Bob Kraft understands, it's the importance of protecting a brand.  BB's new nickname will be Fredo thisfast if anything that can be labelled Spygate 2 comes of this.
 
Absolutely not.  Kraft is a savvy businessman but he doesn't care about what Spygate means to the "brand".  If he did, he'd have a PR firm seeding stories pointing out the problem was only taping from the wrong location.  He'd have them amplifying the quotes from guys like Jimmy Johnson that it gave no competitive advantage.  He'd be astroturfing comments sections saying these things.  He'd be buying ads at the bottom of web pages like the "Exxon: oil is good" stories.  And he'd be regularly feeding quotes to journalists giving the Pats side of the story.
 
He has done none of those things.  He either doesn't care, or he knows nothing about PR and/or doesn't have good PR representation.
 
'Spygate' is 98% PR-manufactured, and Kraft has let that happen without challenge.
 
I just don't care.  About the taping, or about the balls.  Just win in two weeks.
 

BroodsSexton

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genoasalami said:
 
 
I was just going to post this ...if the league can wrap up the investigation in short order and they find that the team deliberately deflated footballs to gain a competitive advantage there will be ramifications ...and I believe BB will be suspended for the SB and perhaps for a portion or all of next year....think about this ....can you imagine Goodell presenting BB and Kraft the SB trophy after they knowingly cheated??? Not gonna happen...
 
What's going to be awesome is when BB is suspended, and then uses a radio transmission to call the game anyways to the sideline.  Oh wait.
 

twibnotes

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Silverdude2167 said:
The Seahawks entire secondary play is based off the idea the refs won't call pi every play. What are you talking about?
That's a dumb analogy bc PI isn't binary. If the pats know that there is an acceptable psi range and they knowingly don't adhere to it, that's blatant cheating. When browner plays a guy aggressively, he's trying to walk the line bw PI and non PI.

Comparing flagged penalties and planning to skirt the rules is ridiculous.

Mind you, I think this whole thing is overblown (under blown?), but stop with the yellow flag bullshit.
 

crystalline

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twibnotes said:
I've seen this argument a couple times and it's idiotic. No one tries to false start. No one plans to pass interfere. Apples and unicorns.
 
What?  Did you watch the three pass plays in the endzone at the end of the 2nd half in the Colts game?  Of course teams intentionally try to pass interfere if they can get away with it, or if the consequences (half the distance to the goal with only a few seconds left) don't matter.  
 

Laser Show

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Nevermind I'm actually nervous about this. Nervous that Goodell goes "hmmm Belichick Super Bowl suspension sounds right"
 

riboflav

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genoasalami said:
 
 
I was just going to post this ...if the league can wrap up the investigation in short order and they find that the team deliberately deflated footballs to gain a competitive advantage there will be ramifications ...and I believe BB will be suspended for the SB and perhaps for a portion or all of next year....think about this ....can you imagine Goodell presenting BB and Kraft the SB trophy after they knowingly cheated??? Not gonna happen...
 
I imagine it may be why we're hearing nothing from the league and this is taking so long. The punishment could be real ugly.
 

E5 Yaz

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kenneycb said:
Welp I messed up there.  Regardless, you tend to follow people around when you quote them and they quote you back, so yeah.
 
No harm, no foul
 

RedOctober3829

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E5 Yaz said:
He's wrong. They never go back to the teams before the game. What would the point of testing them if the teams get them back and could deflate them before the game?

Here's the rule

https://twitter.com/markdanielspj/status/557767682830123008

https://twitter.com/markdanielspj/status/557767682830123008

link to tweet
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Comfortably Lomb said:
 
Oh, pu-lease. I swear to god the NFL has brainwashed a large portion of its fans into thinking the sport is some sort of holy bastion of integrity.
 
This is the kind of nonsense a memo should be sent out over, to all teams, reiterating the proper PSI guidelines. And if the NFL had its shit together it would have buried this days ago. Instead we have catnip for sports media who think they're actual journalists and can prove it over something this inane.
My loin is definitely getting over-inflated over this post.
 

Bone Chips

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Pats are on the clock. How did underinflated balls get into the game. They have had two days to figure it out. They better have a good answer.
When they should be spending all their time trying to figure out how to beat Seattle. This has to be a significant distraction for the team.
 

lexrageorge

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genoasalami said:
 
 
I was just going to post this ...if the league can wrap up the investigation in short order and they find that the team deliberately deflated footballs to gain a competitive advantage there will be ramifications ...and I believe BB will be suspended for the SB and perhaps for a portion or all of next year....think about this ....can you imagine Goodell presenting BB and Kraft the SB trophy after they knowingly cheated??? Not gonna happen...
I think the only chance you see this is if somehow it can be determined that Belichick lied or otherwise hampered the investigation.  Or had someone go and tamper with the balls after the referee's inspection.  So far, we're not there yet.  
 

ScubaSteveAvery

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I won't defend them if they did this intentionally, but a few things stick out after Mort's report. 
 
I thought in poor weather, teams submitted 24 balls each? What about the other 12? Additionally, why deflate 11 of 12? If you are going to intentionally cheat, wouldn't you just deflate them all, since you don't know, at any given time, which ball you are going to receive?
 
This still doesn't' answer why each ball wasn't checked by the refs and properly inflated before game time? As well as the psi of the Colts balls, which would be a perfect control group here. 
 

kenneycb

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Bone Chips said:
When they should be spending all their time trying to figure out how to beat Seattle. This has to be a significant distraction for the team.
Just like Spygate was for the 2007 regular season.
 

twibnotes

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crystalline said:
 
What?  Did you watch the three pass plays in the endzone at the end of the 2nd half in the Colts game?  Of course teams intentionally try to pass interfere if they can get away with it, or if the consequences (half the distance to the goal with only a few seconds left) don't matter.  
Here's another difference: the penalty for a flagged infraction is known ahead of time. Everyone agrees that a PI will result in a certain outcome, so both teams have accepted that premise.
 

Captaincoop

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genoasalami said:
 
 
I was just going to post this ...if the league can wrap up the investigation in short order and they find that the team deliberately deflated footballs to gain a competitive advantage there will be ramifications ...and I believe BB will be suspended for the SB and perhaps for a portion or all of next year....think about this ....can you imagine Goodell presenting BB and Kraft the SB trophy after they knowingly cheated??? Not gonna happen...
There is no chance that happens.

They aren't going to taint the Super Bowl by having one of the coaches spend the week prior going to appeal hearings and other such nonsense while the team wonders who is coaching the game. Not to mention what an epic media disaster that would become.

I could see draft picks and/or a suspension for a game or two next year in the worst case scenario. And even that is a lot for breaking an immaterial and unenforced rule.
 

BroodsSexton

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There's some poor guy who has been delegated to respond to the league on these issues, and cooperate with the investigation, without interfering in SB preparations.  lol.  Probably a lawyer.
 

RedOctober3829

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genoasalami said:
I was just going to post this ...if the league can wrap up the investigation in short order and they find that the team deliberately deflated footballs to gain a competitive advantage there will be ramifications ...and I believe BB will be suspended for the SB and perhaps for a portion or all of next year....think about this ....can you imagine Goodell presenting BB and Kraft the SB trophy after they knowingly cheated??? Not gonna happen...
Conversation overheard from Kraft to Roger: "hey Roger, so where did you bury the Ray Rice tape?"
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Peak Oil Can Boyd said:
The simplest explanation, to me, is that they inflated the balls by feel and got them to where Brady liked them -- and he has admitted publicly that he prefers under inflation.  Then they didn't measure the exact inflation because it is almost never an issue and no one gives a fuck.  Basically, exactly what Rogers does, but underinflated.  This would explain why they are all uniformly under inflated.
 
Everyone here seems to think that they measured all the balls to 10.5 PSI and tried to slip it by everyone.  That would be insane (and wrong and embarrassing).
 
I dunno, if that's what happened -- that they got the balls to Brady's preferred feel, the refs saw they were under at halftime, it was fixed and then we went on to outscore them 28-0, I just can't get worked up about this. 
 
Two things.  Your screen-name is the balls, under-inflated or otherwise.  And your take seems the most logical.  I feel bad for everyone else here who is all distraught over this.  I root for a team that routinely does what it takes to win and their detractors were going to feel that the Patriots cheated regardless of whether this came up or not.  And you know what?  I will take the super-cheaty New England Patriots over the honest, sad sack fuckers that we had to watch in the late 80s and early 90s every day and six times on Superbowl Sunday.  
 

E5 Yaz

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Comfortably Lomb said:
 
Oh, pu-lease. I swear to god the NFL has brainwashed a large portion of its fans into thinking the sport is some sort of holy bastion of integrity.
 
This is the kind of nonsense a memo should be sent out over, to all teams, reiterating the proper PSI guidelines. And if the NFL had its shit together it would have buried this days ago. Instead we have catnip for sports media who think they're actual journalists and can prove it over something this inane.
 
Y'know, I actually agree with this, even though it was my post that led to the reaction.
 
But the problem is, it may not matter by game time that the league doesn't have its shit together. It's easier for the league to dump this onto the Patriots than it is to take responsibility
 

Harry Hooper

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The rule at NFL.com reads "The home club shall have 36 balls for outdoor games and 24 for indoor games available for testing with a pressure gauge by the referee two hours prior to the starting time of the game to meet with League requirements."
 
36 > 24 > 12, so I'm confused as to how it gets down to 12.
 

BroodsSexton

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Also, it kind of sucks that this is what the run up to the game is about, and not about the skill of the players on the field.  Oh well.  Most people don't actually want to discuss the intricacies of foreign policy, either.
 

pappymojo

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Is it possible that the 'bad' balls were the backup balls and those balls are not as closely monitored/maintained by the officials or the team but that those balls came into use because of the bad weather?
 

nattysez

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I deeply apologize for defending Bob Kravitz upthread as a credible reporter.  He just outed himself as a complete homer.  Lesson learned.
 

lexrageorge

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Harry Hooper said:
The rule at NFL.com reads "The home club shall have 36 balls for outdoor games and 24 for indoor games available for testing with a pressure gauge by the referee two hours prior to the starting time of the game to meet with League requirements."
 
36 > 24 > 12, so I'm confused as to how it gets down to 12.
Each team provides 12; home team provides 12 backup balls as well.  Road team can provide another 12 backup balls in the event of an outdoor game.  
 

genoasalami

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lexrageorge said:
I think the only chance you see this is if somehow it can be determined that Belichick lied or otherwise hampered the investigation.  Or had someone go and tamper with the balls after the referee's inspection.  So far, we're not there yet.  
 
The coach would be the fall guy ...as I said...if the league determines that someone deliberately tampered with the balls for a competitive edge then it is not going to be the ball boy..or the equipment guy who is taking the hit....it will be the coach...there is no way that Goodell is presenting BB and Kraft a SuperBowl trophy two weeks after the Pats knowingly tampered with game balls...no way...the coach will take the hit ...this will not be ignored until after the season.
 

E5 Yaz

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DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
 
 I feel bad for everyone else here who is all distraught over this.  I root for a team that routinely does what it takes to win and their detractors were going to feel that the Patriots cheated regardless of whether this came up or not.  And you know what?  I will take the super-cheaty New England Patriots over the honest, sad sack fuckers that we had to watch in the late 80s and early 90s every day and six times on Superbowl Sunday.  
 
I think this puts the line of demarcation in this thread in the right context. Either this stuff bothers you or it doesn't.
 

djbayko

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BroodsSexton said:
Here's the full rule.  It doesn't require the refs to test the balls before the game.
 
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/5_2013_Ball.pdf
 
 
Of course the implication is that the balls are to be tested by the officials.  This action is referenced 3 different times in the rule.  There is no doubt that the third reference calls for the balls to be tested. Interpreting the other phrasings differently is silly.  The officials are there to make sure the game is played within the correct boundaries.
 
"make 12 primary balls available for testing by the Referee"
"make 12 backup balls available for testing"
"may bring 12 backup balls to be tested"
 

Harry Hooper

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Captaincoop said:
There is no chance that happens.

They aren't going to taint the Super Bowl by having one of the coaches spend the week prior going to appeal hearings and other such nonsense while the team wonders who is coaching the game. Not to mention what an epic media disaster that would become.

I could see draft picks and/or a suspension for a game or two next year in the worst case scenario. And even that is a lot for breaking an immaterial and unenforced rule.
 
 
I pretty sure I heard Michael Holley say on WEEI today that BB (and others?) had to meet with the NFL (regarding the Rams walkthrough story) for 4-5 hours right before the first Super Bowl vs. the Giants.