#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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Sunny von Bulow
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loshjott said:
OK it's been many years since I saw it, what was the My Cousin Vinnie reference?
In law school, my Trials prof, a federal judge, assigned My Cousin Vinny to us. He said that the establishment of Marisa Tomei's bona fides as a car expert was the best example he'd seen re: qualifying your expert witness.
 

E5 Yaz

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OilCanShotTupac said:
In law school, my Trials prof, a federal judge, assigned My Cousin Vinny to us. He said that the establishment of Marisa Tomei's bona fides as a car expert was the best example he'd seen re: qualifying your expert witness.
 
D.A. Jim Trotter: Now, uh, Ms. Vito, being an expert on general automotive knowledge, can you tell me... what would the correct ignition timing be on a 1955 Bel Air Chevrolet, with a 327 cubic-inch engine and a four-barrel carburetor?
Mona Lisa Vito: It's a bullshit question.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Does that mean that you can't answer it?
Mona Lisa Vito: It's a bullshit question, it's impossible to answer.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Impossible because you don't know the answer!
Mona Lisa Vito: Nobody could answer that question!
D.A. Jim Trotter: Your Honor, I move to disqualify Ms. Vito as a "expert witness"!
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Can you answer the question?
Mona Lisa Vito: No, it is a trick question!
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Why is it a trick question?
Vinny Gambini: [to Bill] Watch this.
Mona Lisa Vito: 'Cause Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Well... um... she's acceptable, Your Honor.
 

Joe D Reid

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OilCanShotTupac said:
In law school, my Trials prof, a federal judge, assigned My Cousin Vinny to us. He said that the establishment of Marisa Tomei's bona fides as a car expert was the best example he'd seen re: qualifying your expert witness.
Same with a partner at my old firm who is now US Attorney for the DNJ. Whoever consulted on that deserves a medal.
 

Harry Hooper

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Peter King's tweets said officials use an "electronic pressure gauge". The one used in the video accompanying his "Game 150" story was not an electronic one.
 

CaptainLaddie

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OilCanShotTupac said:
In law school, my Trials prof, a federal judge, assigned My Cousin Vinny to us. He said that the establishment of Marisa Tomei's bona fides as a car expert was the best example he'd seen re: qualifying your expert witness.
I've heard this from a bunch of lawyers I know -- the voir dire scene in My Cousin Vinny is the best example in Hollywood history out there.
 

amarshal2

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Recap for people as slow as me:

1) the NFL has zero evidence of foul play. We know this because Schefter and King have been leaking it all week. Additionally BB and TB12 didn't stake their careers on this with there being a realistic possibility of the NFL finding something.

2) The Patriots have science on their side. The laws of physics and our universe require that the Patriots balls would behave as they did. The Colts balls are from this universe and therefore are subject to the same laws. In all likelihood we'll find out that their balls were stored someplace cool before the game such as the back of the road team's equipment truck If it's not that, it's something else. (Quick hat tip to sumnerh who unsurprisingly knew what the fuck he was talking about)

No evidence and science supporting the side of the (wrongfully) accused. Case closed.

The next question is how and when will the NFL respond?

If the Wells report is truly independent and competent, and we can probably assume it is, then they should come to this conclusion. Further, they really shouldn't need much more than 24 hours to have it pretty much all sorted out.

The Patriots deserve full exoneration and they deserve it before the Super Bowl. Anything less is a crime. They also deserve an apology but I'm trying to be realistic.

The questions are:
-Does the NFL really want this to go away before the Super Bowl?
-Are there bounds to their incompetence?
-Will Rodger spin his wheel of justice?
-Will he make moves to save face?
-Is the NFL so convinced if Bill's guilt that they will be steadfast in the face of insurmountable evidence to the contrary?
-Will a news organization figure this out and force their hand? I'm sure 60 Minutes is looking into it for tonight.

A seething nation of pats fans awaits.
 

Al Zarilla

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Harry Hooper said:
Peter King's tweets said officials use an "electronic pressure gauge". The one used in the video accompanying his "Game 150" story was not an electronic one.
Electronic, ooo, ahh, it probably uses a digital readout, ooo, ahh. A cheap digital readout pressure gauge, or any cheap digital readout device, can be less accurate than a good analog one. The opposite can definitely be true, but don't give me that just because it's digital, or "electronic", it's better. 
 

Devizier

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It seems appropriate to link Hunter S. Thompson here.
 
 
Indeed. There is a dangerous kind of simple-minded Power/Precision worship at the root of the massive fascination with pro football in this country, and sportswriters are mainly responsible for it. With a few rare exceptions like Bob Lipsyte of The New York Times and Tom Quinn of the (now-defunct) Washington Daily News, sportswriters are a kind of rude and brainless subculture of fascist drunks whose only real function is to publicize & sell whatever the sports editor sends them out to cover....
 
Which is a nice way to make a living, because it keeps a man busy and requires no thought at all. The two keys to success as a sportswriter are: 1) A blind willingness to believe anything you're told by the coaches, flacks, hustlers and other "official spokesmen" for the team-owners who provide the free booze ... and: 2) A Roget's Thesaurus, in order to avoid using the same verbs and adjectives twice in the same paragraph.
 

SumnerH

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Harry Hooper said:
 
Also, the rubbing or other conditioning could open more "pores" between the leather and the bladder. More water getting through to the bladder could increase the rate of cooling, yes?
 
The rate of cooling is basically irrelevant; there's plenty of time in the half for the ball to reach equilibrium (water that's trapped in between is probably more prone to slow down the rate of cooling than increase it, since it's not going to evaporate quickly and has a much higher specific heat than air, but again it's probably not enough to matter over a half of football).  
 

GameEight

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Being asked by my colleagues in Spain to explain this "controversy," as well as my wife in Germany. It's gone global....
 
This is gonna end up a South Park episode, isn't it? 
 

mpx42

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Considering the South Park guys are Bronco fans who already devoted an episode to Cartman as Belichick teaching his students to cheat on tests - probably.
 

Adrian's Dome

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I now have free reign to call anyone who calls the Patriots "cheaters" a goddamned moron straight to their face, and for that, Bill, I am forever in your debt.
 
To call them cheaters shows a blatant lack of knowledge of the NFL rulebook and what actually presents a live, tactical in-game advantage and a blatant lack of knowledge of basic, high-school level physics. Circumventing the salary cap is cheating. Faking injuries for free timeouts is cheating. Pumping artificial noise into a dome when the opposing team is on offense is cheating.
 
Fun trivia question to use against anybody incessantly going on about the Pats and acting on a high horse about "the rules": name the four NFL franchises punished for salary cap violations.
 
(Raiders, Steelers, Niners, Broncos.)
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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GameEight said:
Being asked by my colleagues in Spain to explain this "controversy," as well as my wife in Germany. It's gone global....
 
This is gonna end up a South Park episode, isn't it? 
"You know how Real Madrid and Barcelona sometimes craft elaborate conspiracy theories about the other cheating or influencing officials, which are picked up by AS and Marca and other media outlets without any journalistic integrity, and then parroted as truth by legions of fans who don't give a shit about the truth but just want to affirm their preconceived narratives about a team they hate....it's like that but worse."
 

Devizier

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mpx42 said:
Considering the South Park guys are Bronco fans who already devoted an episode to Cartman as Belichick Jaime Escalante teaching his students to cheat on tests - probably.
 
Belichick was used as an example. Hilarious episode, and this is coming from someone who hasn't really watched South Park in over a decade (made an exception here).
 

jtn46

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Sp probably don't take much stock in this as it's from a gossip blog (a WFAN caller mentioned it):


http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/01/24/new-england-patriots-deflate-gate-nfl-superbowl-disqualified/

“The NFL has no findings against the Patriots of wrong doing because the refs never properly examined the balls correctly in the first place,” a source tells HollywoodLife.com EXCLUSIVELY. “And they never imagined it to get this crazy and out of hand but they want to make a statement of no wrong doing by Monday after the Pro Bowl. They want the focus to be all about the Super Bowl!”
 

Morning Woodhead

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Adrian's Dome said:
I now have free reign to call anyone who calls the Patriots "cheaters" a goddamned moron straight to their face, and for that, Bill, I am forever in your debt.
 
To call them cheaters shows a blatant lack of knowledge of the NFL rulebook and what actually presents a live, tactical in-game advantage and a blatant lack of knowledge of basic, high-school level physics. Circumventing the salary cap is cheating. Faking injuries for free timeouts is cheating. Pumping artificial noise into a dome when the opposing team is on offense is cheating.
 
Fun trivia question to use against anybody incessantly going on about the Pats and acting on a high horse about "the rules": name the four NFL franchises punished for salary cap violations.
 
(Raiders, Steelers, Niners, Broncos.)
Don't forget the Redskins.
 

pedro1918

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Morning Woodhead said:
Don't forget the Redskins.
Unless there is something I don't know about, Washington's "salary cap" violation came in a year without a salary cap. They were penalized for breaking the spirit of a rule that did not exist. It was just another crock by the NFL.

For the record, I have lived in the DC suburbs for almost 30 years and I hate that football team as much as anyone.

And yes. I don't use the "R word."
 

speedracer

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Random note, but I'm disappointed that Belichick didn't have the equivalent of a O-ring-in-ice-water demo available for the press conference.  RIchard Feynman would have been proud of him.
 

Stu Nahan

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pedro1918 said:
Unless there is something I don't know about, Washington's "salary cap" violation came in a year without a salary cap. They were penalized for breaking the spirit of a rule that did not exist. It was just another crock by the NFL.

For the record, I have lived in the DC suburbs for almost 30 years and I hate that football team as much as anyone.

And yes. I don't use the "R word."
Correct and the Cowboys were penalized as well. Not at all fair to throw either in with those teams.
 

RedOctober3829

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lambeau said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/sports/football/03football.html
 
Interesting that the wax the QB's insist on scrubbing off the balls is actually a resin which when moistened and scrubbed a little turns tacky like a post-it note--but the QB's don't believe Wilson, or something. So they scrub them to death.
Considering how meticulous they are, it seems clear the balls are prepared for the QB's well before game day. Then they are chosen and set aside. No way this is happening two hours before game time.
The Patriots pre-game scrubbing is, I suspect, a frictional heating exercise which is what the investigation would discover--so Bill got out ahead of that discovery today by explaining it as simply an extension of routine ball prep.
I've said this from day 1 that this is how the game balls are prepared because I've done it for years.
 

crystalline

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speedracer said:
Random note, but I'm disappointed that Belichick didn't have the equivalent of a O-ring-in-ice-water demo available for the press conference.  RIchard Feynman would have been proud of him.
Oh yeah I was thinking exactly the same thing - just WAITING for him to pull out a balloon and dunk it in ice water and watch it shrink.



On the "rubdown"- Bill was obviously trying NOT to say "heat" or imply in any way that the team heated anything. The reason was shown clearly by Curran's question - it's too easy for people to say you put the balls in a sauna.

So Belichick kept saying that they rub the balls down (probably with an electric buffer) and that does "something inside the balls which changes the pressure". That something is very simple: rubbing creates heat through friction. He didn't want to say it explicitly to avoid confusion, but that's what he kept implying.

Edit: or what RO said just above
 

notfar

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Well, at least now we know how PV=nRT is going to be introduced in Massachusetts high schools for the next 100 years.
 

bakahump

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bakahump said:
From now on I would submit 12 flat footballs.
 
Let the refs blow them up to whatever the hell they want.
 
Something amiss.....blame them.
Do I get partial credit?


Onto Seattle.
 

speedracer

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notfar said:
Well, at least now we know how PV=nRT is going to be introduced in Massachusetts high schools for the next 100 years.
 
Not trying to go off on you here, but the more important point that needs to be taught in schools is that science isn't about equations -- it's about finding out the truth, examining/questioning assumptions, making sure you're actually measuring what you think you're measuring, and all that other stuff.
 

JMDurron

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There is no Rev said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJPDGxM1ctc
 
Thanks for this, it's so much easier to find the transcripts of the press conferences in here, when they are probably the biggest actual "news" in the entire story.  
 

notfar

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speedracer said:
 
Not trying to go off on you here, but the more important point that needs to be taught in schools is that science isn't about equations -- it's about finding out the truth, examining/questioning assumptions, making sure you're actually measuring what you think you're measuring, and all that other stuff.
Sorry, I meant public high schools.
 

Corsi

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Kevin Negandhi @KNegandhiESPN  ·  1h 1 hour ago
"What he said didn't make any sense." - Bill Nye the Science Guy on GMA today weighing in on Bill Belichick's air pressure presser.
 

GameEight

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
"You know how Real Madrid and Barcelona sometimes craft elaborate conspiracy theories about the other cheating or influencing officials, which are picked up by AS and Marca and other media outlets without any journalistic integrity, and then parroted as truth by legions of fans who don't give a shit about the truth but just want to affirm their preconceived narratives about a team they hate....it's like that but worse."
 
I don't follow La Liga with any special interest (my wife and home are in Germany) but my coworkers in Spain used this example as a comparison, and I agreed it is spot on. With one important caveat - there is a salary cap in American football, and only one true "dynasty" exists in the New England Patriots. Thus the vitriol is more concentrated on one team, whose success inspires conspiracy theories in fans due to the sheer magnitude of its accomplishments. I was very insistent that the Pats's' situation is much more impressive. 
 
But my wife already knows my feelings about the Pats, so I just told her that people don't like Brady because like his balls he is hot and perfect and they hate Belichick because he doesn't bullshit around with conversational platitudes and won't give the media easily digestible sound bites to make their jobs easier. She asked "but he is good at his job, right?"
 
Yeah baby, he's the best there ever was. 
 
We both find the situation ridiculous, but I think she just became a bigger fan of the New England Patriots.   
 

Devizier

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Corsi said:
Kevin Negandhi @KNegandhiESPN  ·  1h 1 hour ago
"What he said didn't make any sense." - Bill Nye the Science Guy on GMA today weighing in on Bill Belichick's air pressure presser.
honestly, what's being addressed doesn't make any sense, either. It's a colossal waste of time and will be over soon enough. Nye will still get to root for his Seahawks next Sunday.
 

Reardon's Beard

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One of the good guys, never doubted him. Writers can see their articles transformed by editors and published without a word - all too often in an era where speed trumps accuracy.
 

simplyeric

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Stu Nahan said:
Correct and the Cowboys were penalized as well. Not at all fair to throw either in with those teams.
Altjough it's demonstrative, because... They were punished even though they didn't do anything wrong. (In case someone comes back with a 'well they only punish people who break the rules that matter' or something).
 

soxin6

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Corsi said:
 
Kevin Negandhi @KNegandhiESPN  ·  1h 1 hour ago
"What he said didn't make any sense." - Bill Nye the Science Guy on GMA today weighing in on Bill Belichick's air pressure presser.
 
 
I like Bill Nye, but he isn't a physicist and there are many possible factors which could cause the pressure in the ball to change. 
 

Norm loves Vera

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I tweeted back to Negandhi for a link to Nye on GMA.. Breer and a few other reporters are tweeting Negandhi tweet like there is video out there of Nye shooting down BB on GMA.  Nye hasnt tweeted about it and I can't find anything online.  I doubt my tweet will get a response.
 
Edit.. is it Tweeted or Twitted? 
 

Corsi

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norm from cheers said:
I tweeted back to Negandhi for a link to Nye on GMA.. Breer and a few other reporters are tweeting Negandhi tweet like there is video out there of Nye shooting down BB on GMA.  Nye hasnt tweeted about it and I can't find anything online.  I doubt my tweet will get a response.
 
Edit.. is it Tweeted or Twitted? 
 
Video: http://screengrabber.deadspin.com/bill-nye-the-science-guy-says-bill-belichick-is-full-of-1681658679/+bubbaprog#_ga=1.214418388.2104101640.1419348447
 
The explanation Nye gives is pretty weak
 

naclone

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norm from cheers said:
I tweeted back to Negandhi for a link to Nye on GMA.. Breer and a few other reporters are tweeting Negandhi tweet like there is video out there of Nye shooting down BB on GMA.  Nye hasnt tweeted about it and I can't find anything online.  I doubt my tweet will get a response.
 
Edit.. is it Tweeted or Twitted?
http://screengrabber.deadspin.com/bill-nye-the-science-guy-says-bill-belichick-is-full-of-1681658679?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
 

Devizier

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soxin6 said:
 
I like Bill Nye, but he isn't a physicist and there are many possible factors which could cause the pressure in the ball to change. 
 
He is (was) an engineer, which is probably more applicable. But I don't think he's being impartial here. Seriously, sports makes people retarded.
 

Eddie Jurak

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soxin6 said:
 
I like Bill Nye, but he isn't a physicist and there are many possible factors which could cause the pressure in the ball to change. 
I still think the most likely explanation was some combination of carelessness by the officials inspecting the balls (which BB could not state outright without directly challenging the league) and some reduction in pressure due to the lower temperature on the field/rain.

The whole implied rubbing-friction-temperature argument rings hollow to me. I'm not sure how that could be true without the officials noticing that the balls were warm.
 

geoffm33

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Weak is an understatement. He basically says that the only way to change pressure is with the needle? :fuckscienceunicornrainbow:
 

Dead Balls

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Stu Nahan said:
Correct and the Cowboys were penalized as well. Not at all fair to throw either in with those teams.
 
If the Patriots violated the spirit of the salary cap during the uncapped year, how would that have gone over?  They'd never hear the end of it and every mouth breather Cheatriots spouter would constantly bring it up.
 

speedracer

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Eddie Jurak said:
I still think the most likely explanation was some combination of carelessness by the officials inspecting the balls (which BB could not state outright without directly challenging the league) and some reduction in pressure due to the lower temperature on the field/rain.

The whole implied rubbing-friction-temperature argument rings hollow to me. I'm not sure how that could be true without the officials noticing that the balls were warm.
 
Noticing that the balls were warm != caring.
 

snowmanny

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SumnerH said:
Oh, maybe I guess.  Seems like a pretty small effect.
Hi-this is referencing back to the permeability
issue. Yes, likely a small effect. The problem here is that there is no smoking gun that proves human manipulation. So folks are left with comparing the Indianapolis balls to the New England balls, but that's impossible because 1) we don't have actual data; 2) we don't know if they were stored in identical conditions; 3) we don't know if they were handled identically prior to testing; 4) we don't know if they were handled/stored identically once the game started; 5) they weren't even (edit:necessarily) identical footballs because they had been (edit:likely) prepped with different substances. And so on. Any combination of factors might account for differences in these (non-existant or at least very limited) data points.