Defensive back technique

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Forgive me for the carnage that is about to follow but I think we should talk about one of the patriot game threads third rails... Defensive backs looking or not looking back for the football. I'm not as technically equipped/savy to get fancy screen shots of the game in here nor am I as well versed in the finer details behind the Xs and Os but I'd like to tee up the conversation.

Couple things to try to keep us grounded:
1. No one thinks that it's realistic or even possible for a DB to get his head around on every play
2. No one thinks thinks that a DB should never look back for the football
3. On his very best day Kyle Arrington is at best a league average corner but his average play is below replacement level.
4. The patriots are not always successful at getting their heads around even when they have good position, there is a margin of error.

I think a lot of the backlash in the game threads comes from a difference of opinion about when a defender is capable of turning around to look for the ball vs when it's not realistic due mostly to his position or angle to the play. Basically it's a difference of opinion on when a defender is already beat or not.

My reasoning is that once a receiver is a half step/step in front of the defender then the proper technique is to basically play the man not the ball. On e you are beat you are beat, turning around to look for the ball is going to lead to more negative then positive consequences.

I am going to throw out some examples from the 4th quarter of today's game.

Dennard ran down the sideline stride for stride with a WR he was in perfect position, he looked up with the receiver and made a play on the ball. Great play, great technique.

Cotchery's TD against Ryan. Cotchery was within arms length but had a step on Ryan. If he turned his head around maybe he gets an arm on the ball. But from a chase position he runs the risk of cotchery cutting inside of him while he isn't looking for an easier TD. Ryan's only play is to try to keep himself between the receiver and the ball and hope that the QB is not perfectly accurate.

Now I want to touch the real hard one. Cotcherys TD against Arrington. Cotchery is running what looks like a post towards the left goal post. He has Arrington beat. He is a stride to half a stride in front of him. Rapist could have tried to throw on to the goalpost and cotchery would have had a play on the ball. Instead he threw it to the open space at the right goal post. It was kind of like a back shoulder throw. Cotchery adjusted and made the catch. I'm not sure what else Arrington could have done after he was already beat but trail the WR and try to force the more difficult throw to the left goalpost. I don't know what he gains by looking back at the QB there considering the position he was in.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't see what a lot of you are asking for once a WR is past a DB but not necessarily wide open.

Happy fighting.

 

[seageral]

just a small question/observation.  On this play:
 
Dennard ran down the sideline stride for stride with a WR he was in perfect position, he looked up with the receiver and made a play on the ball. Great play, great technique. 
 
It looked to me like Dennard gave the receiver a big cushion then turned to run with him as he went deep but continued to look back at the qb except for a brief glance about 2/3 of the way through the play.  Then he made a play on the ball at the end while he was still looking at the ball.  At no time was he "beat" but it seems like had the receiver changed his route while Dennard wasn't looking he could have been wide open.
 
Was this bad technique because he could have been exposed to a double move?  Did he "know" that the receiver was just running a go route (and this knowledge of scheme/players is part of what makes him so good)?  Was this zone so he was willing to go deep while looking at the qb?

 

[RG33]

To me it looked like Arrington actually had the inside coverage on the Arrington TD and had him covered on the route. Rapist threw backdoor and Cotchery made a great adjustment and made the catch. It looked bad when it happened, but in looking at the replay I'm not too sure what else Arrington could have done. It was just a great adjustment by both Rapist and Cotchery IMO.

 

[BucketOBalls]

Clearly, the solution is to give the defenders rear view mirrors so they can see without turning around.

 

[Granite Sox]

Not technically knowledgeable at all, but the Pats DBs seem to let the receiver "get into them", i.e. they don't maintain a 1-2 yard cushion as a WR comes off the line when the Pats aren't playing press.  Pats DBs seem to always let the receiver literally run into them or by them on 10+-yard routes before they turn and pursue.  When this happens, it's pretty hard to locate the ball because you've let the receiver run by you.
 
At the point when WRs "show" whether they are running a go/post/corner, it's too late for the DBs to get their hands on them, so they're basically in pursuit mode.  I hate seeing the back of the DBs uniform in chase mode, because it's a sign that they are at the mercy of the QB and WR at that point. 
 
There have been other games where the Pats (Talib and Dennard) have jammed receivers and successfully thrown off QB timing.  My hunch is that even though this can be an effective technique, the Pats were worried about Roethlisberger's ability to keep plays alive, matched with a healthy respect for Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders.  Hence we saw Arrington scorched repeatedly and Dennard/Ryan burned here and there as well. 
 
Ultimately, I think it was one of those gameplan situations where I think the Pats were okay yielding yards on the ground (killing clock) and on intermediate passes, with the occasional sack/INT thrown in.  The Steelers OL is terrible, so along with an offense that was working well, this allowed the Pats to control the game.

 

[steveluck7]

Those who call for the DB's to "turn your head!" have the benefit of seeing the play from the TV angle. We see the trajectory and path the ball is taking so "turn around, it's right there!" seems pretty obvious.  Turning their head on a play when they're already beaten essentially guarantees a huge gain if they don't find the ball and make a play. At least by playing it the way they do, they still give themselves a shot to make a tackle if the pass is completed.
To me, it seems clear that DB's are being coached to watch the eyes and hands of the WR and get their hand in between the receiver's to attempt a break up.  Dennard has had some success doing this.
I've also noticed that they tend to turn their head when they read an underthrow if the WR slows or even stops; that also may be a way to avoid a PI call by just running over the receiver.

 

[ZMart100]

3. On his very best day Kyle Arrington is at best a league average corner but his average play is below replacement level.

 
I don't know what this means. Replacement level is not a well defined concept in the NFL. Do you mean you would be more comfortable starting Justin Green at CB against opposing teams top 2 WRs? What makes you think that?
 
Arrington seems to me to have done a solid job this year. Sure, he gets beat when he is left 1 on 1, but that is what is supposed to happen more often than not to CBs in the NFL.

 

[Super Nomario]

just a small question/observation.  On this play:
 
Dennard ran down the sideline stride for stride with a WR he was in perfect position, he looked up with the receiver and made a play on the ball. Great play, great technique. 
 
It looked to me like Dennard gave the receiver a big cushion then turned to run with him as he went deep but continued to look back at the qb except for a brief glance about 2/3 of the way through the play.  Then he made a play on the ball at the end while he was still looking at the ball.  At no time was he "beat" but it seems like had the receiver changed his route while Dennard wasn't looking he could have been wide open.
 
Was this bad technique because he could have been exposed to a double move?  Did he "know" that the receiver was just running a go route (and this knowledge of scheme/players is part of what makes him so good)?  Was this zone so he was willing to go deep while looking at the qb?

It looked like Dennard was in "bail" technique on that play. (A couple references: http://hawgtuff.net/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/press_bail_techniquew.16224925.pdf, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hT6Fb55sV8). I'd have to look at the all-22 to be sure, but there's a good chance the Pats were in a zone coverage on that play, so if the receiver cut in, Dennard would have had safety help. Depending on the playcall, DBs play different techniques.
 
The pass rush factors in here, too. If the Pats send a blitz, the DBs aren't going to give a big cushion because they expect the QB to throw hot. That means if the offense picks up the blitz or the QB can extend the play (as Roethlisberger has been known to do), the DBs run a much greater risk of getting beat.

 

[seageral]

thanks SN

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

 
I don't know what this means. Replacement level is not a well defined concept in the NFL. Do you mean you would be more comfortable starting Justin Green at CB against opposing teams top 2 WRs? What makes you think that?
 
Arrington seems to me to have done a solid job this year. Sure, he gets beat when he is left 1 on 1, but that is what is supposed to happen more often than not to CBs in the NFL.

 
I was probably being overly harsh.  I didn't want this to turn into another conversation about the relative strengths or weaknesses of Kyle Arrington, but instead a discussion about overall DB technique.  I was hoping to level set that Kyle Arrington is what he is and that we should be talking about technique and not skill. 

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I'm at work and don't have time to add a lot of depth to what should be a great thread.
 
What I will say, though, is that "turn your head" is never as easy as it sounds.
 
First, if a route is designed for a receiver to keep his stride (he's not sitting/curling), receivers are taught to delay extending their arms to catch the ball as long as possible (ditto for turning their head). If a DB sees a receiver extending his arms to catch the ball, the DB knows the ball is coming and he can then turn his head to find/track it. This alone can make it very difficult for a DB to get his head around on the ball.
 
Second, while not turning your head can cause a penalty (face guarding), turning to find the ball can:
 
1.) Cause the DB to lose track of the receiver. If the DB turns to look for the ball and the receiver makes even a minor adjustment (10 degree cut or less), it can give a large degree of separation in only a few strides
 
and
 
2.) Cause incidental contact if a receiver adjusts his route/comes back to the QB/etc. When a DB is running stride for stride with a receiver and is within 2 feet of him, the chance for this kind of contact is pretty high. Imagine sprinting in a straight line while looking behind you, bulky shoulder pads on, and a large portion of your peripheral vision gone because of a helmet. Then imagine another human being doing the same thing within 2 feet of you. Any adjustment on his route, and there's a very good possibility that you're tripping over each other and a flag being thrown.
 
It's unfortunate, but a large portion of cornerback play is "react" more than "read". I'm sure corners would love to be able to keep their man in front of them, gauge the field/route/QB, and then act accordingly. Unfortunately - and especially with press/man coverage in an era of timing routes - once your receiver is even with you, your focus has to be on him and hope that he gives a sign (head turn/arms extension) where you can have enough time to get your head around.

 

[amarshal2]

2.) Cause incidental contact if a receiver adjusts his route/comes back to the QB/etc. When a DB is running stride for stride with a receiver and is within 2 feet of him, the chance for this kind of contact is pretty high. Imagine sprinting in a straight line while looking behind you, bulky shoulder pads on, and a large portion of your peripheral vision gone because of a helmet. Then imagine another human being doing the same thing within 2 feet of you. Any adjustment on his route, and there's a very good possibility that you're tripping over each other and a flag being thrown.
 

 
From my understanding, if a DB has his head turned and there is incidental contact PI is not supposed to be/usually is not called on either player.  Is that not true?

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

 
From my understanding, if a DB has his head turned and there is incidental contact PI is not supposed to be/usually is not called on either player.  Is that not true?

 
If the ball is in the air and legs get tangled, this is generally true (although not always). If a DB simply has his head turned to check on the QB and runs a WR off his track, that would most likely be called PI.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

 
If the ball is in the air and legs get tangled, this is generally true (although not always). If a DB simply has his head turned to check on the QB and runs a WR off his track, that would most likely be called PI.

 
I haven't check the rule book lately, but does turning the head buy the CB anything in terms of a penalty outside of increasing the chance of incidental contact or reinforcing their right to the ball? I constantly hear "It's no PI, he turned his head" or "He didn't turn his head, its faceguarding!"
 
I can't remember the last time I saw face guarding called after the rule was changed, outside of a defining moment in a Super Bowl.
 
People seem to think that turning your head is a get out of jail free card for most PI calls.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

 
I haven't check the rule book lately, but does turning the head buy the CB anything in terms of a penalty outside of increasing the chance of incidental contact or reinforcing their right to the ball? I constantly hear "It's no PI, he turned his head" or "He didn't turn his head, its faceguarding!"
 
I can't remember the last time I saw face guarding called after the rule was changed, outside of a defining moment in a Super Bowl.
 
People seem to think that turning your head is a get out of jail free card for most PI calls.

 
Right. And it's not. Incidental contact is easier to call if both players are stride for stride and their legs get tangled. It's called because it's hard to say who actually caused the contact and, well, that's the breaks of playing a physical game.
 
Turning your head generally has nothing to do with if a PI gets called or not. If McCourty over pursues a ball and takes out a receiver who has stopped and gone into the air for a ball, it doesn't matter if his head was turned. It's pass interference. By not turning his head, though, McCourty knows where the receiver is and can now adjust his body accordingly. He can get his arms in front of the wide receivers arms/chest. if he can turn his head quick enough, he can put his hands in front of the receivers face mask.
 
With the way ref's have been calling pass interference, it wouldn't surprise me if DB's are trying to shy away from incidental contact as well, which would contribute to DB's not turning their heads.

 

[jscola85]

Players are actually told not to turn their head if they are beaten.  If a corner is a step or two behind the WR, turning their head will only slow them down and create more separation.  Once you're beaten by 1-2 steps in the NFL, you have to accept there is a high chance of completion/PI, so just catch up and try to tackle the guy ASAP and maybe knock the ball out in the process.
 
I was in the end zone corner near where Cotchery beat Arrington and I didn't see much wrong.  Cotchery and Roethlisberger made a nice little adjustment on the throw to open up space - that was not the intended route almost assuredly.  Arrington had decent but not great coverage and as a result didn't have much of a chance.  Just a good play and was the result of little pressure in the pocket.

 

[Super Nomario]

It looked like Dennard was in "bail" technique on that play. (A couple references: http://hawgtuff.net/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/press_bail_techniquew.16224925.pdf, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hT6Fb55sV8). I'd have to look at the all-22 to be sure, but there's a good chance the Pats were in a zone coverage on that play, so if the receiver cut in, Dennard would have had safety help. Depending on the playcall, DBs play different techniques.

I took another look at the play, and it does looks like it was zone, with Dennard and McCourty in quarters coverage on the offensive right side (where the Steelers had twins), so on an in cut Dennard would have had safety help.
 
(Interestingly, on the left side, Arrington was in man coverage, bump-and-run, on Derek Moye with Harmon providing help over the top on the deep half. This is the sort of thing that makes diagnosing defensive coverages interesting / challenging - sometimes the different halves of the field will play different defenses)

 

[dbn]

I have nothing to add "Xs and Os"-wise that can compete with other posters in this thread/forum (btw, thanks for the intelligent, informative posts!), so all that I'll say is that the Patriots DBs seem to be doing much better at turning their heads at the right moment compared to recent seasons.  I seem to recall games where there were multiple times in a given drive, multiple times in a game, where the Patriots' DBs would be called, rightly, for PI because they didn't turn their heads at all and ran into a receiver.  I think this is one area that they have improved.

 

[Saints Rest]

Is it legal or even feasible for teammates to yell to a CB from the sidelines that the ball is in the air? Seems like it could be a really helpful aid to knowing when to turn to look for the ball. Sort of the way guys on breakaway runs will look up at the end zone screen to see if anyone is closing in.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Is it legal or even feasible for teammates to yell to a CB from the sidelines that the ball is in the air? Seems like it could be a really helpful aid to knowing when to turn to look for the ball. Sort of the way guys on breakaway runs will look up at the end zone screen to see if anyone is closing in.

 
Legal? Yes. Feasible? Meh.
 
First, players are only allowed to stand in marked off areas (if I recall, it's between the 25 yard lines), so anything past that - essentially the red zones - means the play is past them and probably difficult to hear in an NFL stadium.
 
They are also supposed to stand 5 yards off the field (although enforcement seems pretty lax). I'd have to assume anything not directly on your sideline and before the 25 yard line means it would difficult to hear.
 
There's also the "crowd noise" factor, which i think works both ways. First, it's loud so I doubt you can hear your teammates, especially with a helmet on (when sprinting, it almost creates a little wind tunnel in your helmet through the earholes). But it wouldn't surprise me on deep balls if cornerbacks heard thew crowd reaction while the ball is in the air ("oooooOOOOHHHHHHH!").
 
I guess all of this is to say, unless you've been in an NFL stadium playing in front of that many fans...who knows?

 

[H78]

It amazes me how many people in this thread know how NFL defensive backs are coached league wide.
 
I think my favorite coaching tidbit was that receivers are taught not to raise their hands or look at the ball until it's just about to arrive. You realize not looking for the ball until RIGHT before it arrives - and then actually reacting properly to make the catch - is almost physically impossible to do, right? I get the whole "timing" nature of a passing game, but receivers generally still have to look for a ball and put their hands up to catch it a couple of second before it arrives. It's rare that they turn around with their hands up and the ball is RIGHT THERE, between their palms, for them to catch. Especially on deep passes.
 
Also, many instances of people yelling "turn your head around" comes in the end zone, where the receiver literally is out of room to run down field any further, and can only run laterally once he reaches the end zone. At that point, a good DB (see Revis, Darrelle), will keep on hand on the WR's hip just to feel which direction he's moving (without impeding the path of the WR), while also looking back at the ball. Kyle Arrington often gets burned so badly on crossing routes that he can't stay close enough to the receiver to even keep a hand on his hip to get a sense of which direction the receiver is moving in.
 
The other time people like to yell "look back!" is on a moderately-deep or deep ball along the sidelines. This is also where I see Kyle Arrington get burned a lot. At that point, even if he's beat by a couple of steps (without safety help), a good DB will run along the inside of the receiver to keep him against and/or drifting toward the sideline (again, hand close to or on the receiver's hip). This way, when the receiver turns around or reaches out for a catch, the DB has his cue to turnaround as well. Even if the receiver makes the catch, there's a good chance he'll end up out of bounds because of the CB's position, limiting the impact of the big play. Now, if there's safety help here, there's no excuse for the DB not to turn around unless he can see that the safety is way out of position to help in any way. During his rookie year, as a CB, McCourty was excellent at this type of coverage; he snagged several picks using this technique that year. There's a great example of McCourty doing this during the regular season home blowout against the Jets, where he picked off Sanchez along the sidelines on a deep pass by staying just a little inside on the WR along the sideline and looking back for the ball.
 
All of that said, it seems like some people are arguing, "well, if the DB is completely turned around, loses his footwork, and is falling away from the play, it's physically impossible for him to look back at the ball." So you're saying if a DB is completely beat and has no chance of turning around without causing more separation, then he shouldn't look back? Well, yeah, no shit...but from what I've seen, the majority of plays people are complaining about are NOT those types of plays. On those plays, people are usually complaining about the CB flat out getting burned...which is a justifiable complaint, too (especially when they're paid like a #1 or #2). However, from what I've noticed, people seem to most yell "look back!" on plays where the DB is in decent enough position to look back and make a play on the ball because he's only maybe a step behind the receiver, but instead never turns around and instead flails his arms around like a nutcase hoping to get lucky and tip the ball. But if the DB had just turned around to spot the ball when the receiver did, the DB could have possibly made up for the lost step by turning around and going up for it, which often times will make up for space lost due to separation.
 
But...again. If the argument is "the only good attempt at making a play for a CB that's been beat is to throw his arms up and pray for a tip or breakup," then yes, it is correct that just throwing their arms up and flailing around is a good last resort. But if a CB is often in position to go to that "last resort," then they're probably not a very good CB and shouldn't be getting paid like one, right?
 
I know all of the above goes against the overall sentiment of the thread, but it's just my .02 so take it for what it's worth. I'm not a coach but I think it's OK to call a player out when they're playing like crap and often out of position and/or making poor attempts at breaking up passes.

 

[IdiotKicker]

Is it legal or even feasible for teammates to yell to a CB from the sidelines that the ball is in the air? Seems like it could be a really helpful aid to knowing when to turn to look for the ball. Sort of the way guys on breakaway runs will look up at the end zone screen to see if anyone is closing in.

 
Yes.  On every play, you are trained to yell "Ball!" the second that the ball is in the air, as well as yelling "Run!" or "Pass!" once the intention of the play becomes clear.  It's so drilled into my head that I still do it when I watch football on TV, even though I was a kicker and haven't even played in 4 years.
 
The big issue is that unless you are absolutely sure that the ball is in the air, you do not turn away from your man.  That is an easy way to lose your man, which potentially results in much bigger plays.  Your first goal as a DB is to limit the damage, not make an interception.  So your priorities go like this:
 
1. Make the tackle
2. Go for the ball
3. Make the pick
 
If you teach it any other way, you open yourself up to much worse problems.  That's why coaches get pissed at DBs who gamble.  And turning your head when you do not know the ball is in the air is a huge gamble.  Being a DB at the NFL level is just about one of the toughest things possible, and looking away from the guy you are covering makes it that much tougher.  Imagine trying to mimic a world-class athlete in real-time when you have no idea where he's actually going.  It's a pretty ridiculous skillset when you look at the guys who actually do it well.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

It amazes me how many people in this thread know how NFL defensive backs are coached league wide.
 
I think my favorite coaching tidbit was that receivers are taught not to raise their hands or look at the ball until it's just about to arrive. You realize not looking for the ball until RIGHT before it arrives - and then actually reacting properly to make the catch - is almost physically impossible to do, right? I get the whole "timing" nature of a passing game, but receivers generally still have to look for a ball and put their hands up to catch it a couple of second before it arrives. It's rare that they turn around with their hands up and the ball is RIGHT THERE, between their palms, for them to catch. Especially on deep passes.

 
If you realize what a timing route is (you say you do), then you know better. Or don't.
 
You also can't be so obtuse to believe that I was implying the ball simply falls into their hands without turning their head or putting their arms out. They're taught to delay "as long as possible." I'm not sure how you interpret that as "turn around with their hands up and the ball is RIGHT THERE, between their palms, for them to catch."
 
Brilliant.
 

Also, many instances of people yelling "turn your head around" comes in the end zone, where the receiver literally is out of room to run down field any further, and can only run laterally once he reaches the end zone. At that point, a good DB (see Revis, Darrelle), will keep on hand on the WR's hip just to feel which direction he's moving (without impeding the path of the WR), while also looking back at the ball. Kyle Arrington often gets burned so badly on crossing routes that he can't stay close enough to the receiver to even keep a hand on his hip to get a sense of which direction the receiver is moving in.

 
Well, if Darrelle Revis can do it, why can't Kyle Arrington? What a bum.
 

The other time people like to yell "look back!" is on a moderately-deep or deep ball along the sidelines. This is also where I see Kyle Arrington get burned a lot. At that point, even if he's beat by a couple of steps (without safety help), a good DB will run along the inside of the receiver to keep him against and/or drifting toward the sideline (again, hand close to or on the receiver's hip). This way, when the receiver turns around or reaches out for a catch, the DB has his cue to turnaround as well. Even if the receiver makes the catch, there's a good chance he'll end up out of bounds because of the CB's position, limiting the impact of the big play. Now, if there's safety help here, there's no excuse for the DB not to turn around unless he can see that the safety is way out of position to help in any way. During his rookie year, as a CB, McCourty was excellent at this type of coverage; he snagged several picks using this technique that year. There's a great example of McCourty doing this during the regular season home blowout against the Jets, where he picked off Sanchez along the sidelines on a deep pass by staying just a little inside on the WR along the sideline and looking back for the ball.

 
The only play you're describing is go routes on the sideline. This is nonsense because, while you say you've seen Arrington "get burned a lot" on these, he's our slot corner (except the last 3 games, and even then he's occasionally played the slot). What you're implying is that in the last three games, the Patriots have left Arrington on an island while he's been playing on the outside, and teams have been crushing him on go routes when he's out there and not in the slot.
 
I could spend my time going through the games to prove you wrong, but I won't waste my time. You're wrong.
 
Your explanation of defensive technique, though, is accurate (inside shoulder on go routes), but for the wrong reasons. It's not because there's a "good chance the receiver will end up out of bounds". It's because it's the only place a DB can be on a well placed ball where he might be able to disrupt the pass. Blind squirrel, nut...or whatever.
 

All of that said, it seems like some people are arguing, "well, if the DB is completely turned around, loses his footwork, and is falling away from the play, it's physically impossible for him to look back at the ball." 

 
Shit. I missed that quote. Who said that?
 

However, from what I've noticed, people seem to most yell "look back!" on plays where the DB is in decent enough position to look back and make a play on the ball because he's only maybe a step behind the receiver, but instead never turns around and instead flails his arms around like a nutcase hoping to get lucky and tip the ball. But if the DB had just turned around to spot the ball when the receiver did, the DB could have possibly made up for the lost step by turning around and going up for it, which often times will make up for space lost due to separation.

 
If the DB is in good position and doesn't turn his head for the ball, it's an issue. It was a bigger issue the last two years than it is this year. Mainly because the corner play has been better and players are getting their head around on the ball more frequently. The reason the back shoulder throw has grown to prominence in the NFL is because most corners don't have their heads turned looking for the ball. It's just a fucking fact. It happens all the time in the NFL, and people that are going to scream "Turn your head!!1!" every single time are asking for perfection out of the most difficult position in the NFL.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

 However, from what I've noticed, people seem to most yell "look back!" on plays where the DB is in decent enough position to look back and make a play on the ball because he's only maybe a step behind the receiver, but instead never turns around and instead flails his arms around like a nutcase hoping to get lucky and tip the ball. But if the DB had just turned around to spot the ball when the receiver did, the DB could have possibly made up for the lost step by turning around and going up for it, which often times will make up for space lost due to separation.

 
I think that is the pivot in this debate and where people's perception of plays start to skew things.  When I see a DB only a step behind a WR than I see a situation where the DBs best play is to play the man.  When H78 sees a DB a only a step behind a WR he sees it as still good enough position to try to make a a play on the ball.  In slow motion replay and TV camera angles I can understand where H78 is coming from.  In real speed, considering how fast these guys are moving and considering the different angles that plays take place then I disagree. 
 
Losing just a step to a WR doesn't mean a CB is beat on the play, they can still recover, but I think their best option to recover that step is to play the players body and not turn around to look for a ball and try to limit the damage.  I guess reasonable minds will disagree on that.  The other complicating part of this is that the QBs in the NFL (even the shitty ones) are really really good and sometimes they are going to drop a ball in that even perfect coverage, with a CB looking for a ball can't get. 
 
The answer is as simple as getting Four Revises to play CB for your team  :rolling: 

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

 
If you realize what a timing route is (you say you do), then you know better. Or don't.
 
You also can't be so obtuse to believe that I was implying the ball simply falls into their hands without turning their head or putting their arms out. They're taught to delay "as long as possible." I'm not sure how you interpret that as "turn around with their hands up and the ball is RIGHT THERE, between their palms, for them to catch."
 

 
After reading through my post, and realizing how smarmy I came across, let me clarify.
 
First, you're right. I have no first hand knowledge of how NFL receivers/D backs are taught. I've read/watched/heard stories, but that doesn't mean shit. More to the point, receivers at younger ages that are learning route running are generally taught to turn their head as soon as possible, which goes counter to how I've heard NFL WR's are trained.
 
I could be 100% wrong here. I'm going off things that I've heard. I won't delete my post because I'll leave it up as a reminder that I'm a huge penis, but I will apologize for coming across like a dick.

 

[Super Nomario]

It amazes me how many people in this thread know how NFL defensive backs are coached league wide.

Certainly we don't, but Belichick has spoken on the issue:

 
Q: How do you guys teach it? 
 
A: There’s a lot of different situations. We talk about those. It isn’t about looking or not looking for the ball. If you don’t look at the ball, then you have to play the receiver’s hands and knock the ball out when the receiver tries to catch it. If you’re looking at the ball, then you play the ball -- and hopefully the ball is in the air when you look at it. Because if you’re looking at it and the ball isn’t in the air, a good receiver will just uncover. As soon as you turn your back on him, he just goes in the other direction.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

1.) Cause the DB to lose track of the receiver. If the DB turns to look for the ball and the receiver makes even a minor adjustment (10 degree cut or less), it can give a large degree of separation in only a few strides

 
So you've finally figured it out...I'm Bill Belichick.

 

[Tony C]

A giant smarmy dick? Why yes, just like BB only w/out the accomplishments that make it all okay....
 

 
(kidding of course, in case that's not clear)

 

[OCST]

Just curious - we have every other kind of experience/expertise on SoSH - is there anyone here who ever played and/or coached DB in high school, college, or beyond?
 
The position always seemed very, very hard to me, and I'd be interested to know what is actually taught and learned.  I never played organized football, so I don't know. 

 

[bakahump]

Certainly we don't, but Belichick has spoken on the issue:

 
 
I had actually thought this as well, especially....  "If you don’t look at the ball, then you have to play the receiver’s hands and knock the ball out when the receiver tries to catch it."
 
It always appeared from the super accurate scouting footage from CBS that I study every Sunday that the Pats coaches may have said:
 
"Dont worry about looking at the QB....its too easy for the WR to drop a Double Move on you and be wide open.  Instead Pay attention to the WR....when you are certain or at least pretty sure the pass is going to arrive ....then raise your hands.  This may deflect the incoming pass. If it doesnt and the ball is caught by the WR you can now "chop" your extended arms downward to try to interfere with securing the catch or strip the ball post catch."
 
They obviously wouldnt be against looking if the opportunity was there.
 
 
Again who knows if this holds any water....but I did find myself constantly reviewing this possible advice against the on field results.
 
Most times the Pats DBs DID try to chop down at the Ball post catch. (I suppose many if not all teams may do this...)
Most times they DIDNT look at the QB.
Most times they did indeed raise their hands often just a little late but occasionally knocking it away almost accidentally.
Quite often they would run into (with raised arms) the stopped WR who was adjusting to the ball in a way the DB was not and get a PI call.
 
Seemed as likely to me as not.

 

[alydar]

I have no idea if this is true, but I wouldn't be surprised if the best receivers in the game spend many plays when the ball isn't like to come to them "setting-up" their best moves, vaguely similar to a pitcher saving his best pick-off move for the right count, runner, etc.  For example, if the WR knows that he's the 4th option on a play, or has the benefit of seeing that the ball is being thrown to someone else on the other side of the field, put your hands up like you're about to catch the ball anyway, mess with the CB's head.  

 

[DaughtersofDougMirabelli]

Just curious - we have every other kind of experience/expertise on SoSH - is there anyone here who ever played and/or coached DB in high school, college, or beyond?
 
The position always seemed very, very hard to me, and I'd be interested to know what is actually taught and learned.  I never played organized football, so I don't know. 

 
From a buddy of mine who played at WPI and currently plays semi-pro in the EFL league. 
 

 
I was always taught to never turn for the ball until you get in a good position on the guy.  If you are beat by three steps you never look back until you get to the hip.  Usually the receivers eyes will give away the location of the ball, at which point I was always taught to play the hands of the receiver.  If you think about it, logically, if you look back for the football when you are beat, you are only slowing yourself down and losing sight of the receiver.  The only time that works is if you luck out on an underthrow.  Nine times out of ten though you better off only turning around if you are hip to hip with the guy.  In general though, don’t turn until you are in a position to make a tackle.

 

[Super Nomario]

Anyone beating the "why don't the DBs look back?" drum needs to watch the 66-yard bomb to Hopkins that Arrington gave up yesterday. He keeps pace with Hopkins pretty well, then looks back for the ball ... and totally loses Hopkins.
 
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000290600/DeAndre-Hopkins-66-yard-catch
 
BTW, while this was the only catch Arrington allowed yesterday, he did only play 15 snaps. Does the coaching staff think Logan Ryan (57 snaps) is better, or a better matchup for Houston, or was this a nod to Arrington's groin issues (he's been listed on the injury report since week 7)?

 

[H78]

Anyone beating the "why don't the DBs look back?" drum needs to watch the 66-yard bomb to Hopkins that Arrington gave up yesterday. He keeps pace with Hopkins pretty well, then looks back for the ball ... and totally loses Hopkins.
 
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000290600/DeAndre-Hopkins-66-yard-catch

 
I KNEW this post was coming.
 
He also slowed down for the ball, which IMO is what really prevented him from staying with the receiver.
 
You realize that great DBs look back for the ball all the time, right?

 

[Stitch01]

Anyone beating the "why don't the DBs look back?" drum needs to watch the 66-yard bomb to Hopkins that Arrington gave up yesterday. He keeps pace with Hopkins pretty well, then looks back for the ball ... and totally loses Hopkins.
 
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000290600/DeAndre-Hopkins-66-yard-catch
 
BTW, while this was the only catch Arrington allowed yesterday, he did only play 15 snaps. Does the coaching staff think Logan Ryan (57 snaps) is better, or a better matchup for Houston, or was this a nod to Arrington's groin issues (he's been listed on the injury report since week 7)?

Reiss seems to think he's hurt.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

 
I KNEW this post was coming.
 
He also slowed down for the ball, which IMO is what really prevented him from staying with the receiver.
 
You realize that great DBs look back for the ball all the time, right?

 
He slowed down because he had his head turned and didn't know that Hopkins was still sprinting.
 
Like I said up thread, if he had kept sprinting with his head turned and Hopkins slowed down/cut, then its pass interference. You can't fucking turn your head all the time. Jesus.

 

[H78]

 
He slowed down because he had his head turned and didn't know that Hopkins was still sprinting.
 
Like I said up thread, if he had kept sprinting with his head turned and Hopkins slowed down/cut, then its pass interference. You can't fucking turn your head all the time. Jesus.

 
Oh I agree with the bolded. But in general, when you have tight coverage for the most part you should be able to turn your head.
 
If you don't have tight coverage, then of course you shouldn't turn your head. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. If you're burned you're burned, but if you're right there you should play the ball. That's how interceptions happen.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

 
Oh I agree with the bolded. But in general, when you have tight coverage for the most part you should be able to turn your head.
 
If you don't have tight coverage, then of course you shouldn't turn your head. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. If you're burned you're burned, but if you're right there you should play the ball. That's how interceptions happen.

 
Everyone agrees with this point.  The reason this is such a toxic debate is that what is and is not "tight coverage" and bring "right there" is highly subjective.  There are many plays where half the crowd sees an opportunity to turn around and look for the ball which the other half of the crowd sees as an impossible or very bad time to turn around and look for the football.  I think viewing games on TV really distorts CB play because you cannot see the effort it takes or the angle or the amount of ground a corner has to cover to get 'right there' before the ball is thrown. 

 

[Shelterdog]

 
Everyone agrees with this point.  The reason this is such a toxic debate is that what is and is not "tight coverage" and bring "right there" is highly subjective.  There are many plays where half the crowd sees an opportunity to turn around and look for the ball which the other half of the crowd sees as an impossible or very bad time to turn around and look for the football.  I think viewing games on TV really distorts CB play because you cannot see the effort it takes or the angle or the amount of ground a corner has to cover to get 'right there' before the ball is thrown. 

 
And relatedly we expect our offense to complete 20-35 passes game, complete passes against any wideout who's single-covered, and burn any linebacker covering our TEs or RBs but then we go bannanas if the other team completes 20 passes a game, completes passes to single-covered guys, or burn our linebackers with TEs adn RBs.

 

[Saints Rest]

From that video, and in realtion to a point somoene made upthread, it is clear that Arrington turned his head when he had a hand on Hopkins (the idea that you use your hand to keep "an eye" on the WR when you turn your head to look for the ball).  And as soon as that happens, Hopkins gets off the hand.  Arrington flails with the hand (imagine walking in a dark room with your hands in front of you).  When his hand can't locate Hopkins, Arrington then turns back to find him.

 

[H78]

 
I was just about to point this out. It's great to see ball awareness in the secondary...can't wait to see it from someone in a Pats jersey!

 
Too bad, according to half the board over the last couple of years, it's IMPOSSIBLE (!!!) to look back for the ball. It just can't be done!

 

[Shelterdog]

 
Too bad, according to half the board over the last couple of years, it's IMPOSSIBLE (!!!) to look back for the ball. It just can't be done!

 
Nobody said this.

 

[DJnVa]

Yeah, I'm not sure I heard that much either.
 
In fact, I remember that after the Denver game last year, BB pointed out and it was noted here, that Logan Ryan was pretty good at getting his head around quickly to find the ball.

 

[H78]

 
Nobody said this.

I'm not about to go down this rabbit hole, but I do know people said it was hard to look back for the ball and play tight coverage, and that Patriots DBs who don't look back for the ball are reacting to the receiver which is an effective way to cover, etc, etc.

Those who made the argument will twist it around and change the original intent of their statements now that Revis - living proof that you can play the receiver close and play the ball at the same time - is in the fold.

Those active in this forum know what was said and by whom, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[DJnVa]

I'm not about to go down this rabbit hole, but I do know people said it was hard to look back for the ball and play tight coverage,

 
So, you've already jumped from "IMPOSSIBLE" to "hard".

 

[PedrosRedGlove]

People did say it is hard to play tight coverage and look back for the ball. The fact that we now have the best cornerback, possibly the best in the history of the game, and he can do that with ease, doesn't change anything.

 

[H78]

I'm pretty sure people argued that the overall better technique is to play the receiver. They said it in defense of how the Patriots' coaching staff had been coaching the DBs over the years. If people want the argument to be something else now, then it is what it is, and like I said, it's not a rabbit hole I want to go down too far because circular SoSH arguments are something I generally try to avoid.

 

[DJnVa]

I'm pretty sure people argued that the overall better technique is to play the receiver. They said it in defense of how the Patriots' coaching staff had been coaching the DBs over the years. If people want the argument to be something else now, then it is what it is, and like I said, it's not a rabbit hole I want to go down too far because circular SoSH arguments are something I generally try to avoid.

 
Noted. But you were the one that changed your qualifier in this thread after 75 minutes, not anyone else.

 

[soxfan121]

I'm pretty sure people argued that the overall better technique is to play the receiver. They said it in defense of how the Patriots' coaching staff had been coaching the DBs over the years. If people want the argument to be something else now, then it is what it is, and like I said, it's not a rabbit hole I want to go down too far because circular SoSH arguments are something I generally try to avoid.

 
Then stop making shitty arguments. There are archives, threads where things were actually said, not paraphrased through your faulty memory. 
 
"I don't want to go down this rabbit hole" is short for "I'm too lazy to back up my recollection". Go find these strawmen you've erected or stop wasting everyone's time.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

soooo you are saying that if every CB was Revis then the Pats Defensive Backs would play up to your standards?
(See, I can make crazy assumptions too!)