Dan Shaughnessy: Taking a dump in your mouth one column at a time

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
17,625
Portsmouth, NH
Shaughnessy didn't bring Ortiz up, Chad Finn did. I like Finn a lot, but there was a heavy dose of insinuation in his tweet.

Shank did bring up Bruschi, which I'm not 100% sure he did that (probably to be a dick), but an accusation of a pro football player on PEDs? Someone fetch my fainting couch.
I read it like timlin does; Finn made a comment about comparing the two and Shank jumped straight to PEDs. Thomas is a massive man, even more so than Papi; always has been and Thomas has gotten bigger while Papi has gotten smaller. There’s obviously explanations for both of those happening but jumping to that conclusion is trolling a known target. Bruschi, yes, nfl players and peds, I get it; but taking unnecessary shots isn’t cool. I know it ranks far down his list of dick moves, it it shouldn’t be left off in my opinion. It’s not shocking that a stroke victim would change his routine from building mass to dropping weight, both through exercise and diet. It’s a totally uncalled for blindside. Unless he has a personal issue with him....oh wait, it’s Shank.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,082
Shaughnessy didn't bring Ortiz up, Chad Finn did. I like Finn a lot, but there was a heavy dose of insinuation in his tweet.

Shank did bring up Bruschi, which I'm not 100% sure he did that (probably to be a dick), but an accusation of a pro football player on PEDs? Someone fetch my fainting couch.
Are you talking about this tweet?


I'm with timlin, I don't see any insinuation at all. I think he's just pointing out The Big Hurt is a big human.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
Apr 12, 2001
19,842
Is there though? Or is he simply stating that a fairly large guy like Ortiz looks small next to a human mountain like Thomas? Because that is how I read that.
Yeah, I think that reading makes sense to me and given that Finn is not a cheap shot artist; it makes the most sense.

But I read it that Ortiz (now) looks small compared to Thomas; whom I always thought were about the same height and weight when they played. BTW, I just checked on baseball-reference and Papi is listed at 6'3, 230 while Thomas is 6'5, 240. So they're pretty close in terms of measurements. As we know these measurements don't usually change and I have no idea when they were tabulated, so I'm not sure if Papi shrunk or the Big Hurt got bigger.

That's why I was thinking this was a PED observation.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
5,412
Yeah, I think that reading makes sense to me and given that Finn is not a cheap shot artist; it makes the most sense.

But I read it that Ortiz (now) looks small compared to Thomas; whom I always thought were about the same height and weight when they played. BTW, I just checked on baseball-reference and Papi is listed at 6'3, 230 while Thomas is 6'5, 240. So they're pretty close in terms of measurements. As we know these measurements don't usually change and I have no idea when they were tabulated, so I'm not sure if Papi shrunk or the Big Hurt got bigger.

That's why I was thinking this was a PED observation.
And other than the nfl draft combine, sizes and weights are usually pretty generous, so I wouldn't trust those completely. Papi was (and probably still is) a large human being. But Frank Thomas was built like an NFL tight end before he played pro, because that was the position he played at Auburn. He is a next level large human being.



There may be a little bit of perspective distorting the heights, but Thomas is a monster next to 3 guys who I thought were supposed to be pretty big.

So I'm figuring Finn was pretty straight up in his comment. Shanks was just using it as an excuse to take unrelated swipe at somebody.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,249
A-rod is not small. Big Papi looks considerably heftier next to him. Not a singles hitter at all. So yeah, cheap shot by Shanks.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
12,650
The times I saw ortiz in person he didn't look Thomas-large. Tall, yes. But not football sized.
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
7,402
NOVA
Dan believes that sports are narratives as do all old school sports writers and that these narratives can be written in stone early in an athlete’s career. And yet in this expanded age of tv coverage and more playoff games than we’ve ever had, we see that narratives of the past were built on short sample sizes and short memories. In this age, writers like Dan are proven over and again to be relics of a bygone era. Narratives are being constantly disrupted and some even overthrown altogether. Yet, the relics persist and many adhere clinging to the last vestiges of magic, superstition, and sports as narrative.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
5,412
For sure. Dan 'Tomato Can' Shaughnessy.
He has two stories in the can already "David Price, unlikely WS hero!", and "David Price, won't get fooled again!".

The second one he really likes, because he thought of a reference to pop culture that is less than 50 years old. The first one references a Glen Miller Orchestra tune (Oh so Good?), so maybe the young kids won't get it.
 

scottyno

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
4,745
Dan believes that sports are narratives as do all old school sports writers and that these narratives can be written in stone early in an athlete’s career. And yet in this expanded age of tv coverage and more playoff games than we’ve ever had, we see that narratives of the past were built on short sample sizes and short memories. In this age, writers like Dan are proven over and again to be relics of a bygone era. Narratives are being constantly disrupted and some even overthrown altogether. Yet, the relics persist and many adhere clinging to the last vestiges of magic, superstition, and sports as narrative.
It's pretty amazing that he or any other writer could watch this years playoffs (or last years) and actually believe this. All playoffs long I've heard the media talk about how Justin Verlander is one of the best postseason pitchers ever and always nails in the clutch. From the same media who early in his career decided he was a playoff choker and couldn't pitch when it counted, and now it's like those first 3 playoff seasons for him never happened.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
12,650
Fair point today on Schilling not being invited last night.
I agree to a point. But it would have been nice to point out the inaccuracy of Mrs. Schilling's post. They didn't fly 8 guys in. Pedro, Ortiz, Varitek and Wakefield are already there. Possibly Millar, too, since he works for MLBN.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

All Hail King Boron
Dope
May 20, 2003
30,437
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Undoubtedly Millar was already there.

Schilling wasn't invited because his actions since retiring as a player would sully the Red Sox organization and their brand if they associated themselves with him. He has no one to blame for his lack of invitation but himself. And DAN KNOWS THIS. He's ginning up false controversy because that's what he does.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
Apr 12, 2001
19,842
Undoubtedly Millar was already there.

Schilling wasn't invited because his actions since retiring as a player would sully the Red Sox organization and their brand if they associated themselves with him. He has no one to blame for his lack of invitation but himself. And DAN KNOWS THIS. He's ginning up false controversy because that's what he does.
SJH is right. Of course Schilling is allowed to express his opinions and say or tweet what he wants, it's still America. But he doesn't have freedom from repercussions and sometimes that means you have to decide whether Tweeting out a hateful, bullshit meme is worth getting fired from a million dollar job and becoming a social pariah.

And fuck Shaughnessy for even attempting to turn this into a thing. Because you know if Schilling was out there, Shank would be the first guy bitching about how this isn't a good look for the Sox, etc. I think that Shaughnessy is a pretty good writer, when he wants to be, but this sort of stuff is why it's difficult to go all in on the guy.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
30,151
Hartford, CT
And, honestly, does the fanbase really care that he wasn’t there?

The idea this was about ‘politics’ - a narrative Callahan peddled today - is absurd, too. Brady and BB have well publicized personal connections to Trump, but theyve not suffered for it largely because they’re not running around spewing the vile shit Schilling has. It’s about what he says/how he says it, and thus what he represents, not that he’s a ‘conservative.’
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
12,650
And, honestly, does the fanbase really care that he wasn’t there?

The idea this was about ‘politics’ - a narrative Callahan peddled today - is absurd, too. Brady and BB have well publicized personal connections to Trump, but theyve not suffered for it largely because they’re not running around spewing the vile shit Schilling has. It’s about what he says/how he says it, and thus what he represents, not that he’s a ‘conservative.’
I think its a legitimate story. Shaughnessy took the easy way out.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,249
While some of us are giving the devil his due, it is worth noting that he has been supportive of David Price all season.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
5,047
Needham, MA
Cross posting from the T&R thread:

Even if they invited everyone on the team but not Curt Schilling it would have been the right call. I am sure some of those guys support Trump and vote Republican, but none of them except him have revealed themselves to be a bigot and an asshole. He’s divisive and would have been a distraction during what is supposed to be a complete feel-good pre-game ceremony. The Sox were totally right to exclude him.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
Apr 12, 2001
19,842
The idea this was about ‘politics’ - a narrative Callahan peddled today - is absurd, too.
I mean this is completely about politics. Other than what Schilling has become since he retired, what else is it about? The 38 Studios thing was/is a huge mess, but Curt Schilling isn't the first guy who dove into something without checking the depth first. This happens all the time--and by no means am I belittling what occurred--but I don't think that Schilling was actively trying to fuck over everyone at his business and the state of Rhode Island.

You could feel sorry for the guy and the situation that he (very much so) put himself into. Hubris is forgivable, I suppose.

But Schilling has done and said so many dumb and stupid things over the last few years that he's practically toxic. So toxic that him being at Fenway Park last night would have taken away from the World Series. And it's all because of his politics. So as much as I loath to admit it, Callahan is right about this. But like I said earlier, it's freedom of speech, not freedom from consequences.

This is just one consequence of tweeting out a meme that called for the literal lynching of journalists. Belichick and Brady may (or may not) be Trump supporters, but they aren't endorsing a request for people to find a rope, find a tree and hang your local reporter.
 

brs3

sings praises of pinstripes
SoSH Member
May 20, 2008
4,646
Jackson Heights, NYC
At this point is Schilling more well known for his bloody sock or his big mouth? What's the prime years for a baseball fan(i'm talking time investment, not necessarily monetarily)? Ages 13-25? How does the average Red Sox fan between those ages remember Schilling's historic contributions compared to the same way older fans do? Would the average 21 year old Red Sox fan identify Schilling from Embree walking down the street?

Schilling chose his new career path, and nobody has to be obligated to invite him to anything. It's like thinking you need to invite an estranged uncle to a family reunion because it's a family reunion. Says who?
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
12,650
Schilling chose his new career path, and nobody has to be obligated to invite him to anything. It's like thinking you need to invite an estranged uncle to a family reunion because it's a family reunion. Says who?

I have no issue with the non-invite. He made his bed. But its a story. There aren't many similarly situated pro athletes who get erased like that.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
10,425
Maine
I agree to a point. But it would have been nice to point out the inaccuracy of Mrs. Schilling's post. They didn't fly 8 guys in. Pedro, Ortiz, Varitek and Wakefield are already there. Possibly Millar, too, since he works for MLBN.
Pretty sure Foulke resides nearby and does a bunch of work with the Sox and associated charities. Really, the only one that possibly flew in special for the night was Embree.

I said it in the T&R thread...unless the Sox invited 24 of the 2004 players to be on hand and he was the only one left out, Schilling needs to shut up about it, and the media needs to not make a big deal about it. Oh boo hoo, he wasn't invited to be one of eight to throw out the first pitch (FWIW, seven was a bit much). It's not like he's entitled to do it.

Maybe if there's a game 6, they'll have a bunch of 2007 alumni come in and he can be a part of that?
 

strek1

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 13, 2006
21,919
Hartford area
Curt Schilling.................I love how the irony is always missed with these guys that their beliefs inherently exclude people and then cry foul when a private entity takes a stand.

It isn’t because he is a Trump supporter, it’s because he’s publicly backed up a lot of the lame brained conspiracy theories those nuts are throwing out there. Tom Brady is a Trump supporter too but he doesn’t make stupid outlandish remarks in public.

Good old Curt: http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/curt-schilling-red-sox-hero-turned-far-right-provocateur-not-invited-2004-teammates-fenway-20181025.html
 

NickEsasky

Please Hammer, Don't Hurt 'Em
SoSH Member
Jul 24, 2001
8,069
I mean this is completely about politics. Other than what Schilling has become since he retired, what else is it about? The 38 Studios thing was/is a huge mess, but Curt Schilling isn't the first guy who dove into something without checking the depth first. This happens all the time--and by no means am I belittling what occurred--but I don't think that Schilling was actively trying to fuck over everyone at his business and the state of Rhode Island.

You could feel sorry for the guy and the situation that he (very much so) put himself into. Hubris is forgivable, I suppose.

But Schilling has done and said so many dumb and stupid things over the last few years that he's practically toxic. So toxic that him being at Fenway Park last night would have taken away from the World Series. And it's all because of his politics. So as much as I loath to admit it, Callahan is right about this. But like I said earlier, it's freedom of speech, not freedom from consequences.

This is just one consequence of tweeting out a meme that called for the literal lynching of journalists. Belichick and Brady may (or may not) be Trump supporters, but they aren't endorsing a request for people to find a rope, find a tree and hang your local reporter.
I guess it's tangentially about politics. But let's not make it seem like Schilling is being left out because he's a Republican. He's being left out because his particular brand of politics is toxic, hateful, and disgusting.
 

brs3

sings praises of pinstripes
SoSH Member
May 20, 2008
4,646
Jackson Heights, NYC
I have no issue with the non-invite. He made his bed. But its a story. There aren't many similarly situated pro athletes who get erased like that.
Manny Ramirez was the 2004 World Series MVP and he wasn't there. That's not a story. Derek Lowe was the winning pitcher for all three series winning games, and he wasn't there. That's not a story. Mark Bellhorn hit key dingers in ALCS gms 6+7 and game one of the WS, and a key double in game 2 of the WS, and he wasn't there. That's not a story. Alan Embree faced a total of 6 batters in the '04 World Series, and couldn't get the one out he should've gotten in game 1, and he was there. My point is whether this is a story that is silly. What's the mountain molehill phrase? Dan Shaughnessy is the king of molehill mountain.
 

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
12,565
The families of Manny, Lowe, Bellhorn, Damon, etc. aren't on twitter publicly whining and crying and acting like victims, so it's not "a story" that they weren't invited.

Schilling's family is publicly crying. They are the ones making it "a story" for lazy journalists to jump on. It's a stupid story of whining and entitlement and false victimhood, and one that sums up Schilling's media career perfectly.
 

JohntheBaptist

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 13, 2005
11,382
Yoknapatawpha County
I mean this is completely about politics.
The only thing I'd quibble with you is on this--I think this is the crux of it. It isn't politics. And this is how someone like Schilling and Callahan drag us down to their level.

This is just human decency. He's an awful, hateful human being and he should not be invited to celebrate things where the team has the choice. Frankly, after pushing around old men that work worth him and his wife alike, same goes for Manny. Saying "they're being mean to him because of his politics!" it is a small effort to legitimize what Schilling has "argued."

Its like turning LGBTQ, women's, minority rights into "politics." It isn't politics, it is right and wrong. But that's another discussion for another space I think.
 

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
12,565
Hey look, it's not just Schilling's family whining and crying and playing victim for him, he's doing it himself too with this Facebook screed:
"So no, I didn't get invited, I didn't get snubbed.
I just didn't get an invitation from a few weak 'men' who've spent their entire lives paying and watching other men achieve."

Putting "men" in quotes, implying that the people who run the Red Sox are weak and have never achieved anything. Still 100% douche, as always. He's the one who's publicly burned all the bridges now.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
12,650
Manny Ramirez was the 2004 World Series MVP and he wasn't there. That's not a story. Derek Lowe was the winning pitcher for all three series winning games, and he wasn't there. That's not a story. Mark Bellhorn hit key dingers in ALCS gms 6+7 and game one of the WS, and a key double in game 2 of the WS, and he wasn't there. That's not a story. Alan Embree faced a total of 6 batters in the '04 World Series, and couldn't get the one out he should've gotten in game 1, and he was there. My point is whether this is a story that is silly. What's the mountain molehill phrase? Dan Shaughnessy is the king of molehill mountain.
That's a fair point. I think Schilling's continued public persona makes his absence notable, but no one asked the Sox if Damon was not invited because he played for the Yankees or anything like that. The truth is that Ortiz and Pedro's stature has grown over time, others have remained the same. Schilling's has diminished.

I guess it's tangentially about politics. But let's not make it seem like Schilling is being left out because he's a Republican. He's being left out because his particular brand of politics is toxic, hateful, and disgusting.
I would love to see Sam Kennedy make this exact statement.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
17,243
Shank tries to defend his usual viewpoint: https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/10/29/turned-out-these-red-sox-were-not-too-good-true/4QcDfVwk7JavhnMGSkF8pJ/story.html

LOS ANGELES — My parents went through their high school and college years during America’s Great Depression. My mom had seven siblings, my dad four, and there was never extra money for anything. They never felt financially secure.

They had what we all came to know as the “Depression Mentality,’’ and passed it on to their children. The message was: Take no risks and always say yes to a steady job. You never know when it might all go away.

This is how I explain my year-long skepticism about the 2018 Red Sox — the greatest Boston baseball club in history and now in the discussion with the 1927 Yankees and a handful of others as among the best ever.

I have the Depression Mentality about this franchise, and I believe it’s because of the times I grew up in.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,781
Boston, NY
I also found his decision to dedicate an entire column to explaining his trepidation to be a little self-absorbed. But it's always All About Dan. I know that some will say it's his column but the story du jour is so much bigger in my view.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
34,116
Rotten Apple

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
Apr 12, 2001
19,842
This is pure insanity. His parents went through hardships? Dan is a Baby Boomer, his generation had (and has) it better than any generation in history. But oh, his parents had it tough. Give me a break.
I agree with this. Especially the baby boomer* part, those self absorbed fuckers try to co-opt everything and usually make it worse. And the Red Sox have been good to really good for over 50 years now. This notion that the Red Sox of now are all of a sudden going to turn into the Red Sox from 1950-1966 is completely absurd. So too is the idea that the playoffs are a walk in the park. Know why the Sox struggled against the Yankees in the first two games? Because they're really good. Know why the games were close in Houston? Because they're really good. Know why the Dodgers won one in Los Angeles? Because they're really good too.

The 2004 team needed a once-in-a-lifetime comeback in the playoffs.
The 2007 the team crawled back from a 3-1 series deficit in the ALCS.
The 2013 team needed an improbably grand slam from Papi (who had, I think two hits that entire ALCS) and needed to overcome some really weird shit in the World Series to win.

It's the post season, as Bob Ryan would say, "It's not supposed to be easy!"

But Dan Shaughnessy is the ultimate baby boomer. He thinks that everything should be laid out nice and neat for him. Everything is free and easy: college, drugs, music, sex; until it's not and then the wailing and crying and the beating of the chest with the gnashing of teeth. "Why is this so hard for me?" And instead of trying to make things better, they attempt to burn it down with cynicism and a sneer.

Dan Shaughnessy's column should have been titled, "I don't like things that are difficult and for that I blame my parents (what the fuck else is new)" -- they'd probably need to double or triple stack that headline.

* I don't believe that all baby boomers are like this, BTW. A lot are though.

This is exactly what a lot of people were fighting about on this board: if the Sox didn't win the World Series, who gives a shit. The postseason is a crap shoot and literally all five teams that made it could have beaten the Dodgers. It was a stacked race. For 162 days, the Red Sox gave a great show. They were fun, they were exuberant, young and energetic. They were a great team to watch day-to-day.

What exactly is wrong with that? Live in the now, you dumb afro puff. If they flame out in October, it doesn't negate the fun that you had in the summer. Jesus.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
34,116
Rotten Apple
Totally agreed with all of the above. Well said.
And of course the perverse kicker is that when it actually is easy for Boston teams, although it rarely is in the playoffs, Dan will reduce the opponent to Tomato Can status. He's functionally ill equipped to be happy in print.
 

RIFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
1,744
Blackstone MA
I don't get the hate on the article. I suspect it would be viewed differently if the byline was by someone different. I thought the article was representative of a lot of long-time Red Sox fans. Half this board was fretting about the bullpen, that they peaked too early, or were going to struggle to get past the Yanks and Stros. Kinsler was compared to Buckner. Shank was far from alone in being skeptical that they wouldn't find away to blow it. That thought is deeply ingrained in fans born in the 60's and before.

For people that are now into their 50's and beyond it was really hard to be a Boston fan and Red Sox fan in particular for 2/3's of your life or more. Their were great times with the Celtics and the Orr years with the Bruins, but you knew if you were a fan you'd end up suffering. My son was born in 2001 just as this started to unfold. I used to joke that no matter where we lived he would be raised as a Boston fan because suffering builds character. It was just a common expectation. I came along after '67 and was a little young to be fully crushed by '75, but '78 was my first real heartbreak. I can get that despite all the success, the anticipation of doom is still real with some people who have the scars of past defeat.

It's not like he said they were lucky or rolled out the tomato can line in the article. He did a mea culpa and gave them their due. I see plenty of reasons to shit on the guy, I just don't think this article is one of them.