Come on People Now, Smile on Your Brother

[CR67dream]

And after the past several years of endless petulant whining about Mookie, the front office, and how rich John Henry is I think a lot of posters who don't agree with the endless hate have tuned out at the moment.

Somehow I missed or didn't register this part as the snark it was earlier. Why would you pick that fight here? Thanks for keeping with the spirit of the thread. If people want to stop the negativity they see, challenge it with reason. That's what this place is for for Christ's sake. It's beyond lame to throw that shit out in a thread like this. If anything it's many of those posters you mention that showed up here and blew up my impressions of the prevailing opinions held here, without throwing grenades. I am glad for that. Cut through a lot of noise.

The most vocal posters are the ones that are shaming any posters who think negative thoughts about ownership and the front office.

I don't see it this way either. Sorry, man, I'm not mad at anybody personally whatever views they hold, but one of the main reasons I started posting again as much as I have lately is because there's no doubt in my mind that the pervading negativity wasn't really getting any well reasoned rebuttal, and it was sorely needed. People had stopped bothering to use logic and reason from wherever they were coming from, and were just screaming at each other constantly. We are supposed to be better than that here. Emotion had overtaken any desire to actually debate things and I got really tired of everybody telling each other to basically go screw themselves. Not good reading. Nothing but noise.

It's the absolutely ridiculous amount of that noise coming from both sides of this absolutely asinine debate that is what is wrecking this place. And make no mistake, the quality overall of a lot of what this place is producing right now is as low as I've seen it in 23 years. And it isn't just one side, it's collective. For me, I got to a point that it was either try to demonstrate that with a little work, people who disagree with each other can find some common ground, or completely tune this place out because the tone and tenor and lack of respect for each other made me want to kick puppies. I hope I chose wisely.

We've all got to do better if we are going to salvage the core of what this place is supposed to be all about. I really, really, really didn't want to do this here. I was feeling pretty good about some of the old school SoSH that I saw starting to peek through. Alas....

If anyone has any feedback, hit my inbox, but for the love of God no more airing this out here. My head hurts.

 

[Bernard Gilkey baby]

As a very old old school member who doesn't say much, I wanted to add that the last few years, I've logged onto this site is that on one hand, with the team losing, some of the passion that were the hallmarks of the early days has returned. HOWEVER, I've also seen some of the most useless fighting I've ever seen on the site. It's a lot of vitriol over whether someone is right or not, which isn't that important. As if someone is keeping score. I skim over it, and it's kind of a pity that posters put so much effort into personal arguments that I'd guess most of us aren't reading.

But overall, with the team losing respect across baseball, it's good to see some fans breathing fire again.

 

[CR67dream]

As a very old old school member who doesn't say much, I wanted to add that the last few years, I've logged onto this site is that on one hand, with the team losing, some of the passion that were the hallmarks of the early days has returned. HOWEVER, I've also seen some of the most useless fighting I've ever seen on the site. It's a lot of vitriol over whether someone is right or not, which isn't that important. As if someone is keeping score. I skim over it, and it's kind of a pity that posters put so much effort into personal arguments that I'd guess most of us aren't reading.

But overall, with the team losing respect across baseball, it's good to see some fans breathing fire again.

Holy shit! I'm only slightly exaggerating when I say all of it was worth it just to see BGB here again. Legendary Old School. For anyone who hasn't met him, this is Bernard Gilkey baby. Just like the baseball player, but a baby!

Thanks for the perspective, man, and your presence.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

To what extent does PR interfere with baseball operations? With the free agent market being so overheated, and all the various factions with interests acting like they need to engage in 1960s Cold War misinformation schemes, I wonder if the Sox have just realized they need to STFU. Is the cost of communicating your plans in a concrete way antithetical to negotiating $100 million+ transactions?

We all got very used to the Belichick way. He gave zero shits about fan service or keeping fans informed. If he believed that he could get an extra yard in field position by antagonizing the entire press corps, he took that trade. Fan service to him was about winning.

”Full throttle” was a blunder and they may well have decided to never again do that. Is John Henry sitting around counting his money thinking how easy ownership would be without fans? Possibly. Other possibilities are they are not articulating a clear vision because (a) they don’t have one or (b) they know we would be furious if they told us the truth. I think an unspoken understanding that underlies much of the tension on the board is acceptance that something like one of those options is undoubtedly true. I guess door number 3 is simply that they have gone Belichick — even if they can’t articulate exactly how or why they have realized that in 2024 there is simply no upside in trying to have adult conversations with fans and the only talking that matters is the scoreboard.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I don't think that PR is the right thing that the Red Sox need to address. PR is best used for when there is a mistake and that entity needs to move past it. For example if a oil tanker dumps a couple of million gallons of crude oil into a body of water, the PR flacks go to work spinning that the disaster "wasn't that bad" and that the company is "doing all it can to clean up the area" and stuff like that. It's basically used for a one-time thing so that people will move on and continue to think of the company/organization in a better light.

I think that what you're getting at is do the Red Sox need better transparency or communication with their fan base? And I'd say in the most broadest terms, yes but with a big but. It has become very apparent that at some point the Boston ownership has pretty much said that they're done with giving out big money, long term deals. Maybe they looked at the ones that they've given out in the past and realized that they weren't good deals; which isn't 100% wrong. Even the ones that did work out for them, weren't great. It's apparent that they feel that younger players and veterans on short-term deals not only bring on-field success (which, if you look at the WS winning teams of 07, 13 and 18 is true) and also reaps them a financial boon. Signing big ticket free agents (you know the roster) usually leads to poorer performances (non 2004 team withstanding).

And here comes the big but, they can't honestly say that to their customers because Sox fans are a. smart and b. used to being in the mix for stars. Not only that, but the team needs more than one star. Dealing with the latter reason, we know how much John Henry is worth. We know how much FSG is worth. We know how much the Red Sox are worth. We also know how much a ticket to a Sox game goes for. How much a beer and a hot dog costs. How much NESN costs to folks outside the New England area. So there's a disconnect there where the team is worth x, the fans are paying y and the Red Sox production is z. Those numbers don't add up.

So what is the front office to do? They can level with us and say, "We're in this business to make money and we find that we're making the most money by our new financial structure. Maybe we'll go back to our free spending days, but maybe we won't." Or they can do what they're doing now and insist that they're still a big market team and that they're trying really hard you guys to sign a big ticketed free agent but they won't come to Boston for some reason. I don't think that either way is going to endere the ownership to their fanbase, but at least with the first one, you could say that they are being honest.

I have a biased view (yeah, no shit?) of ownership that I think that they think we're dumb and that we don't really see what's going on here and how they've changed. I think most of us do see it and it's just whether you want to accept it or fight it. I'm kinda done fighting it, TBH, it's just exhausting. Henry is like every other billionaire in that he doesn't want to lose money. He's not some generous benefactor, he's not running the Sox as some sort of civic duty, he's doing it to make cash. And that's his right, I don't think it's my place to tell anyone how to make a buck. He's just another dude looking to take my money from my wallet. I was okay when he did that when he was signing big time free agents and stocking his club with players that were fun to watch.

Aside from 2021, the Sox haven't been fun to watch since 2018. They're boring. They're bad. There's nothing really to see or root for. Some players are interesting, but there's not enough of them. Scores of faceless pitchers have taken the mound in the last three years and I'm not sure if I could correctly match a majority of the faces to the majority of the names. I'm a huge baseball fan who will watch any game and if I'm not connected, I don't know how you get the average fan much less the casual fan to care.

Which returns to the original question, the Boston Red Sox don't have a PR problem they have a perception problem. Nobody really cares about them as much as they used to--and as much as some of the folks around here say that doesn't matter, it really does. How do you solve that issue? You solve it by one of two ways: winning (that solves everything) or you make a splash with a player that will move the needle via a signing (not likely this year, again) or a trade (maybe, but who?).

The offseason is like a semster. If you're not aware, now a days you can follow your kids' progress and see what their grades are every day if you want, much like the MLB offseason. Maybe your kid has a D+ in geometry and even though there are two weeks left in the semster your kid swears he's going to bring his mark up to a B. And sure, that might be true but right now it's a D+ and it's okay to be angry that he has that grade now even though in two weeks he could drag it up to a better mark. There are 30 days left until ptichers and catchers report. As presently constituted the Sox aren't any better than they were last year. They could be. But they don't appear to be. Not only that, but the majority of the fan base isn't buying it. Sox ownership and FO have a lot of work to do in 30 days if they want the fan base to change their perception and be engaged. To continue the school analogy, the Sox' "classmates" are more engaged (for good and bad). With a new coach, the third pick in the draft and some front office intrigue, the Pats are going to be the talk of the town for the next six months. The Celts look like they're going to be Championship contenders. The Bruins have the third most points in the league in their "bridge year". The Sox desparetely need to do something.

I don't perceive that anything is going to happen and no amount of PR is going to be able to wallpaper over another boring season at the Fens.

 

[8slim]

I don't think that PR is the right thing that the Red Sox need to address. PR is best used for when there is a mistake and that entity needs to move past it. For example if a oil tanker dumps a couple of million gallons of crude oil into a body of water, the PR flacks go to work spinning that the disaster "wasn't that bad" and that the company is "doing all it can to clean up the area" and stuff like that. It's basically used for a one-time thing so that people will move on and continue to think of the company/organization in a better light.

I think that what you're getting at is do the Red Sox need better transparency or communication with their fan base? And I'd say in the most broadest terms, yes but with a big but. It has become very apparent that at some point the Boston ownership has pretty much said that they're done with giving out big money, long term deals. Maybe they looked at the ones that they've given out in the past and realized that they weren't good deals; which isn't 100% wrong. Even the ones that did work out for them, weren't great. It's apparent that they feel that younger players and veterans on short-term deals not only bring on-field success (which, if you look at the WS winning teams of 07, 13 and 18 is true) and also reaps them a financial boon. Signing big ticket free agents (you know the roster) usually leads to poorer performances (non 2004 team withstanding).

And here comes the big but, they can't honestly say that to their customers because Sox fans are a. smart and b. used to being in the mix for stars. Not only that, but the team needs more than one star. Dealing with the latter reason, we know how much John Henry is worth. We know how much FSG is worth. We know how much the Red Sox are worth. We also know how much a ticket to a Sox game goes for. How much a beer and a hot dog costs. How much NESN costs to folks outside the New England area. So there's a disconnect there where the team is worth x, the fans are paying y and the Red Sox production is z. Those numbers don't add up.

So what is the front office to do? They can level with us and say, "We're in this business to make money and we find that we're making the most money by our new financial structure. Maybe we'll go back to our free spending days, but maybe we won't." Or they can do what they're doing now and insist that they're still a big market team and that they're trying really hard you guys to sign a big ticketed free agent but they won't come to Boston for some reason. I don't think that either way is going to endere the ownership to their fanbase, but at least with the first one, you could say that they are being honest.

I have a biased view (yeah, no shit?) of ownership that I think that they think we're dumb and that we don't really see what's going on here and how they've changed. I think most of us do see it and it's just whether you want to accept it or fight it. I'm kinda done fighting it, TBH, it's just exhausting. Henry is like every other billionaire in that he doesn't want to lose money. He's not some generous benefactor, he's not running the Sox as some sort of civic duty, he's doing it to make cash. And that's his right, I don't think it's my place to tell anyone how to make a buck. He's just another dude looking to take my money from my wallet. I was okay when he did that when he was signing big time free agents and stocking his club with players that were fun to watch.

Aside from 2021, the Sox haven't been fun to watch since 2018. They're boring. They're bad. There's nothing really to see or root for. Some players are interesting, but there's not enough of them. Scores of faceless pitchers have taken the mound in the last three years and I'm not sure if I could correctly match a majority of the faces to the majority of the names. I'm a huge baseball fan who will watch any game and if I'm not connected, I don't know how you get the average fan much less the casual fan to care.

Which returns to the original question, the Boston Red Sox don't have a PR problem they have a perception problem. Nobody really cares about them as much as they used to--and as much as some of the folks around here say that doesn't matter, it really does. How do you solve that issue? You solve it by one of two ways: winning (that solves everything) or you make a splash with a player that will move the needle via a signing (not likely this year, again) or a trade (maybe, but who?).

The offseason is like a semster. If you're not aware, now a days you can follow your kids' progress and see what their grades are every day if you want, much like the MLB offseason. Maybe your kid has a D+ in geometry and even though there are two weeks left in the semster your kid swears he's going to bring his mark up to a B. And sure, that might be true but right now it's a D+ and it's okay to be angry that he has that grade now even though in two weeks he could drag it up to a better mark. There are 30 days left until ptichers and catchers report. As presently constituted the Sox aren't any better than they were last year. They could be. But they don't appear to be. Not only that, but the majority of the fan base isn't buying it. Sox ownership and FO have a lot of work to do in 30 days if they want the fan base to change their perception and be engaged. To continue the school analogy, the Sox' "classmates" are more engaged (for good and bad). With a new coach, the third pick in the draft and some front office intrigue, the Pats are going to be the talk of the town for the next six months. The Celts look like they're going to be Championship contenders. The Bruins have the third most points in the league in their "bridge year". The Sox desparetely need to do something.

I don't perceive that anything is going to happen and no amount of PR is going to be able to wallpaper over another boring season at the Fens.

This is an excellent post, particularly the last five paragraphs.

The Sox are entertainment. They haven’t been very entertaining for most of the past 5 years.

The “entitlement” argument that some folks like to bandy about cuts both ways. The Sox aren’t entitled to my time, attention or dollar. And as much as the Sox historically are a huge component of my summer, if they aren’t much improved this season it seems likely that they’ll get significantly less of all three of those things.

And that’s a shame. I want them to be good. I want them to be entertaining. Not because I’m entitled to that, but because that’s fun! And fun is not a word I’d use to describe most of the 2019-2023 Sox experience.

 

[CR67dream]

Henry is like every other billionaire in that he doesn't want to lose money. He's not some generous benefactor, he's not running the Sox as some sort of civic duty, he's doing it to make cash. And that's his right, I don't think it's my place to tell anyone how to make a buck. He's just another dude looking to take my money from my wallet. I was okay when he did that when he was signing big time free agents and stocking his club with players that were fun to watch.

Absolutely true regarding the bolded, and if my expression of gratitude for what he's done here for this franchise made anyone think I thought otherwise then I wasn't clear enough. Much like our heroes on the field, the primary motivation for doing what they do certainly does not begin with pumping up any particular fan base or city. That said, I'll always appreciate that those efforts on both counts have given me so much joy. In no way, however, do I give Henry a pass for the state of things today.

He absolutely needs to be held accountable but there was literally a post on this board within the past few weeks that included "Four World Championships and all, but I hate these fucking guys." I can't even fathom ginning up that kind of hate looking at the big picture. This is an extreme example, but that's the type of stuff I find just way over the top. I Just can't wrap my head around it.

But I agree with Slim, excellent post, and absolutely valid. I'm not where you are with ownership yet, but could certainly get there.

I also agree with Slim that "entitlement" is a loaded word and goes both ways. I hate that word, just try using it on someone and not ending up in an argument. No, I'm not daring anyone.

It's been a while, but I have to admit I'd be lying if I said there haven't been times that I've felt a little spoiled by the embarrassment of riches that my teams have achieved over the past 20+ years, but that's just me.

None of that has any bearing whatsoever on me holding anyone accountable who deserves to be in the present or future, however.

 

[pk1627]

This is an excellent post, particularly the last five paragraphs.

The Sox are entertainment. They haven’t been very entertaining for most of the past 5 years.

The “entitlement” argument that some folks like to bandy about cuts both ways. The Sox aren’t entitled to my time, attention or dollar. And as much as the Sox historically are a huge component of my summer, if they aren’t much improved this season it seems likely that they’ll get significantly less of all three of those things.

And that’s a shame. I want them to be good. I want them to be entertaining. Not because I’m entitled to that, but because that’s fun! And fun is not a word I’d use to describe most of the 2019-2023 Sox experience.

Think this is well said and very clear.

I’ll speak for myself here. Sox are much more than entertainment. I realize it’s somewhat a meaningless exercise in the abstract, but it matters to me. They’re in my blood.

So I get it. Spend your entertainment dollar where you wish and best to you.

For me, I’ve been through a few rebuilds, think this one is wrapping up, found last year kind of fun (until it became the Bear Claw and Llovera show) and think this season will be even better. (Still need a pitcher, dammit - and a rh power bat.)

 

[8slim]

Think this is well said and very clear.

I’ll speak for myself here. Sox are much more than entertainment. I realize it’s somewhat a meaningless exercise in the abstract, but it matters to me. They’re in my blood.

So I get it. Spend your entertainment dollar where you wish and best to you.

For me, I’ve been through a few rebuilds, think this one is wrapping up, found last year kind of fun (until it became the Bear Claw and Llovera show) and think this season will be even better. (Still need a pitcher, dammit - and a rh power bat.)

I agree about it being in your blood. I imagine many of us here feel that way.

The Sox are my family team. It’s a thread that runs from my grandparents through to my kids. Four generations, nearly 100 years.

And of course we’ve all lived through down times, rebuilds and all that stuff.

I just want this front office to commit fully to fielding a championship caliber team. I don’t expect championships. And I know full well that not every year can be all in. I’m just…
concerned… at the moment.

We’ll see.

 

[grepal]

This is an excellent post, particularly the last five paragraphs.

The Sox are entertainment. They haven’t been very entertaining for most of the past 5 years.

The “entitlement” argument that some folks like to bandy about cuts both ways. The Sox aren’t entitled to my time, attention or dollar. And as much as the Sox historically are a huge component of my summer, if they aren’t much improved this season it seems likely that they’ll get significantly less of all three of those things.

And that’s a shame. I want them to be good. I want them to be entertaining. Not because I’m entitled to that, but because that’s fun! And fun is not a word I’d use to describe most of the 2019-2023 Sox experience.

Championships are difficult to win. Buying one is even harder. Keeping your key players, the ones the fans love and admire, is important on many fronts. For every Schilling or Manny we have a Crawford or Gonzalez. I believe the fans appreciate it when it looks like ownership is trying. The do little or next to nothing trade deadlines when the team has a chance is troubling. This off season and last have been huge disappointments. Fans are asked to spend a good portion of their incomes if they want to go to the games. Many of us have done so for years or decades. When I don't go you can count on one hand the games I have not watched on television or listened to on the radio. As a fan base we are known for our passion and knowledge. It is only natural for us to want and expect to ask our ownership group to show us they care as much as we do. Ask yourself and debate as much as you desire, do you feel ownership is in it to win it. I used to feel that way, I do not any more.