Chris Sale to Boston for Moncada, Kopech, & 2 Prospects

ehaz

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Sep 30, 2007
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Ortiz being coy on Instagram:

"My god my boy Sale to btown? You guys got me thinking"
 

shaggydog2000

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Apr 5, 2007
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Sale is obviously extremely good but there are some significant legitimate questions about his health. Moncada and Kopech obviously have a ton of talent and high to extremely high ceilings, but there's a significant chance they fall far short of them.
Every pitcher has a decent risk of injury. I don't see why Sale is any worse than the vast majority that have been pitching in the majors for more than 5 years. And his fastball velocity was right around his career average last year (93.0, career 93.4) 2015 was more the outlier in velocity and K rate than 2016 was, although in a positive way.
 

nvalvo

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Is there any school of thought that Sandoval's really horrid platoon split coincided with his shoulder injury?
The original injury was in 2011. He rehabbed it after the season. The platoon split decline may have been masked a bit by a high BABIP in 2012 and 2013 (or maybe it hadn't started yet), but then really kicked in around 2014-5. He really messed up the shoulder again making a diving play in 2015.

Hard to say.
 

mauidano

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I'm okay with that.
There is no way Papi tops last year. The only way is downwards now. He left on a high note after a phenomenal season winning the Division. Time for everyone to let it go and Papi to sail off into the sunset a Legend for all time. It's done.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I cant believe that the Sox had to deal Moncada - and pay his contract - and Kopech too for injury riddled Chris Sale. And Espinoza something, something.

Sorry, who the hell am I kidding, the Sox landed the best pitcher on the market with three more years of cheap control for lottery tickets and some of JWHs ample cash. What is not to like?
 

InstaFace

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Wow, you're not kidding. Some highlights until I couldn't take it anymore:
  • "Dombrowski is awful at his job, worst signing the Red Sox have ever made including Crawford"
  • "I really hope Moncada is the next Mike Trout. I really do."
  • "We just traded Seguin for Loui all over again."
  • "I hope Sale fails his physical"
  • "Carrabis said Groome was in and I almost died."
  • "Fair enough deal. At least until Derelict Dave signs Sale to an 8 year, 248 million dollar extension."
  • "Took 10 years to build this system and DB Dave is going to undo it in less than 2. F this guy! f him, f him, f him."
  • "Fire Dombrowski now. First the garbage trade today that sandwiched two Franchise crippling deals with SD and CWS."
One guy posted the video for "Jumper". That place is absolute madness right now, I felt like I was reading NYYFans back in the day.
 

Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
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Aug 15, 2006
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Wow, you're not kidding. Some highlights until I couldn't take it anymore:
  • "Dombrowski is awful at his job, worst signing the Red Sox have ever made including Crawford"
  • "I really hope Moncada is the next Mike Trout. I really do."
  • "We just traded Seguin for Loui all over again."
  • "I hope Sale fails his physical"
  • "Carrabis said Groome was in and I almost died."
  • "Fair enough deal. At least until Derelict Dave signs Sale to an 8 year, 248 million dollar extension."
  • "Took 10 years to build this system and DB Dave is going to undo it in less than 2. F this guy! f him, f him, f him."
  • "Fire Dombrowski now. First the garbage trade today that sandwiched two Franchise crippling deals with SD and CWS."
One guy posted the video for "Jumper". That place is absolute madness right now, I felt like I was reading NYYFans back in the day.
It was/is great reading. One poster, I think the same one that said it was like Seguin for Loui had a tirade about how he was done with the f'n team and we should all protest outside Fenway until DD is fired.

What has happened to the fan base? I mean i hated the Pomeranz deal too but what's done is done. He's our guy until he isn't. Same with Chris Sale. Worse guys to trade Moncada for than a top 5 pitcher in baseball.
 

Snoop Soxy Dogg

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May 30, 2014
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Wow, you're not kidding. Some highlights until I couldn't take it anymore:
  • "Dombrowski is awful at his job, worst signing the Red Sox have ever made including Crawford"
  • "I really hope Moncada is the next Mike Trout. I really do."
  • "We just traded Seguin for Loui all over again."
  • "I hope Sale fails his physical"
  • "Carrabis said Groome was in and I almost died."
  • "Fair enough deal. At least until Derelict Dave signs Sale to an 8 year, 248 million dollar extension."
  • "Took 10 years to build this system and DB Dave is going to undo it in less than 2. F this guy! f him, f him, f him."
  • "Fire Dombrowski now. First the garbage trade today that sandwiched two Franchise crippling deals with SD and CWS."
One guy posted the video for "Jumper". That place is absolute madness right now, I felt like I was reading NYYFans back in the day.
Come on. Those quotes are entertaining, but most were by the same poster.
 

chawson

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Aug 1, 2006
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The Sox signed Moncada in just before the 2015 season. I doubt there's much correlation, but maybe watching the league figure out some of the most prominent Cuban hitting imports the last couple years, coupled with Moncada's shaky cup of coffee, made them less bullish on him.

Puig [2013-14] – .387 wOBA, 153 RC+
Puig [2015-16] – .324 wOBA, 107 RC+
Jose Abreu [2014] – .411 wOBA, 167 RC+
Jose Abreu [2015-16] – .355 wOBA, 124 RC+
Jorge Soler [2014] – .386 wOBA, 148 RC+ (97 PA)
Jorge Soler [2015-16] – .320 wOBA, 100 RC+
Yasmany Tomas [signed 6/$68.5 contract in Nov 2014]
Yasmany Tomas [2015-16] – .328 wOBA, 100 RC+

And then there's Rusney. Cespedes is an exception (and there are obviously other Cuban hitters that have been in the league awhile, like Iglesias, Hechevarria, Kendrys Morales, etc.). But it might not look like the goldmine it did a couple years ago.
 

JohntheBaptist

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That place is always madness. Although, if you're a minor league baseball fan, I guess this would be tough to take but--YM and MK were leaving to join the Boston Red Sox sometime soon and they'd have lost them to irrelevance then, too, so I still don't get the difference.
 

DJnVa

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It was/is great reading. One poster, I think the same one that said it was like Seguin for Loui had a tirade about how he was done with the f'n team and we should all protest outside Fenway until DD is fired.

What has happened to the fan base? I mean i hated the Pomeranz deal too but what's done is done. He's our guy until he isn't. Same with Chris Sale. Worse guys to trade Moncada for than a top 5 pitcher in baseball.
I don't understand their mindset at all. Prospects are assets, to be used to play themselves and help the major league team or as pieces to acquire talent. I think some of those posters would like if we were the #1 rated farm system every year, regardless of what the major league team did.
 

Byrdbrain

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I don't understand their mindset at all. Prospects are assets, to be used to play themselves and help the major league team or as pieces to acquire talent. I think some of those posters would like if we were the #1 rated farm system every year, regardless of what the major league team did.
I'm glad I checked what the newest comment was because I had the bolded essentially word for word.
That place can be interesting but they are the center of the Red Sox Prospect Industrial Complex. Days like today they are good for entertainment only, you won't get much rational discourse.
 

jasvlm

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Nov 28, 2014
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As Biggums said his career died to kill the curse. I call Foulke Jesus. He gave his baseball life to set us free. He is the savior. A goddamned hero indeed. Long live Keith Fouke.
This. Foulke was an absolute beast in 2004, and pitched so many crucial innings that there is no way they win the title without him. None. He might have sacrificed the rest of his major league career effectiveness in that one postseason, and I bet he wakes up every morning without a single regret, looking down on that big shiny 2004 ring. Bless his right arm, and his beating heart.
 

jasvlm

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Nov 28, 2014
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A few things about Sale that should make him a bit more savory:

1) Sale pitched in front of a reasonably poor defense in each of his past few seasons. The Red Sox defense is significantly better than anything Chicago has put on the field, and with Benintendi taking over LF, they could be better in 2017. With all these lefties on the mound, however, they would be wise to invest in a very strong glove at 3b. Sandoval isn't that fellow.

2) Sale had some of the poorest pitch framers in the majors last season catching him. The Red Sox, with Leon and probably Vazquez, will be major improvements in that regard as well.

Considering the defense and the pitch framing, 2017 could see Sale shave .5-.75 off his ERA for the Red Sox, even if he pitched exactly the same as he did in Chicago in 2016.

I get the attraction to the prospects, and Moncada could well be an elite, franchise cornerstone. Kopech could be a long term pitching stalwart, and Chicago does a great job developing arms. However, DD traded both guys at just about their peak value, just as he did with Guerra and Margot last season. If you said that Moncada and Kopech would get you Sale BEFORE 2016, you'd have been laughed out of the clubhouse.

I'm in agreement with the strategy, and the deal. Maximize this current core's window of competitiveness, and keep drafting and signing international free agents to replenish the farm system. The also figure to have an asset to move from among Wright, EdRod, Pomeranz and Buchholz, who could be part of the effort to find a 3b upgrade, or just a few younger fellows to fill in. DD does it again.
 

Lowrielicious

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Only skimmed the thread so it's likely already mentioned but I'll say it anyway. Some of this move has to be Price opt-out coverage too I'm sure. Something that some other teams haven't managed to do in the past *cough* Yankees *cough* forcing their hand to overpay to get their guy back to refill the hole and pay for it dearly on the back end.

I like it given moncadas strikeouts red flag.
 

j-man

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Great Move u are the Fav in the AL if u can replace oritz bat thanks for making the yankees have the num 1 or 2 farm system hopefully the yankees kids can make this a rivery again in 18 or 19
 

j-man

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This. Foulke was an absolute beast in 2004, and pitched so many crucial innings that there is no way they win the title without him. None. He might have sacrificed the rest of his major league career effectiveness in that one postseason, and I bet he wakes up every morning without a single regret, looking down on that big shiny 2004 ring. Bless his right arm, and his beating heart.
i have to disagree its all dave robers without the SB Yankees sweep u i blame torre for overused the pen in game 5 for that series loss the Yankees beat STL in 6 without Dave robers
 

simplicio

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Apr 11, 2012
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Beyond questions about Sandoval's defense, is having 4 lefty starters such a bad thing? There are only a handful of guys in the division that OPSed over .750 vs LHP last year.
 

InstaFace

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...looking down on that big shiny 2004 ring. Bless his right arm, and his beating heart.
And what's left of his right knee. I kinda wondered what he was up to these days, not being a baseball fan himself. Turns out the Sox hired him earlier this year as a "player development consultant" to help prep relievers with their mental prep.

He's also been eating a few whoppers, it appears, but as far as I'm concerned he can do whatever he god damn pleases.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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It was/is great reading. One poster, I think the same one that said it was like Seguin for Loui had a tirade about how he was done with the f'n team and we should all protest outside Fenway until DD is fired.

What has happened to the fan base? I mean i hated the Pomeranz deal too but what's done is done. He's our guy until he isn't. Same with Chris Sale. Worse guys to trade Moncada for than a top 5 pitcher in baseball.
It was pretty much the same after the Pomeranz trade, including calls for a protest outside Fenway. Enjoy it for the absurd theatre it is and view like you would GangGreen.
 

timelysarcasm

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i have to disagree its all dave robers without the SB Yankees sweep u i blame torre for overused the pen in game 5 for that series loss the Yankees beat STL in 6 without Dave robers
A Broncos and Yankees fan? How/why?

And hugely disagree. Roberts was crucial, but they wouldn't have even been in that spot without Foulke. Lots of heroes on that 2004 squad, though.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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For the poster who asked earlier - and I'm sorry, I'm not going back through this maze to find it - Scott Lauber on ESPN is citing a $6M luxury tax calculation for Sale this year. I believe there are retroactive accountings when options are picked up, but for this season at least that's your number.
 

Kull

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And will everyone suggesting that Sale put on some weight please shut the hell up. Do you think you're the first one to think of that? Oh, thin guy. He should try to put on weight. He's heard that since before he got to the majors and he's tried. He's thin. Live with it.
I'm reading this and just nodding my head, thinking "absolutely right....." And then it hits me:

And will everyone suggesting that Pablo lose some weight please shut the hell up. Do you think you're the first one to think of that? Oh, fat guy. He should try to lose weight. He's heard that since before he got to the majors and he's tried. He's fat. Live with it.
So, umm, yeah. (Apologies in advance, not really trying to divert the thread down into the great black hole that is Pablo's gullet...)
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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As to the SP surplus talk, I don't think one should expect anything regarding a trade until Spring Training, unless DD gets his doors blown off with an offer in a weak market.

And when the time comes I don't see how there's any dispute that Buchholz is the one to go (full disclaimer that I hate him).

He's the oldest. The most expensive. Has the least amount of control left. And is no more reliable than Wright or Pomeranz. He's too expensive for a reliever that isn't a lock down closer. And he offers an acquiring team a lottery ticket that he's healthy at the deadline and can fetch more than they spend in prospects to acquire him. And no, I don't see the Sox having to eat any salary - as Theo used to say, there's no such thing as a bad one year contract. Or something like that. There's plenty of teams that will take that on for a bag of balls if not a an actual prospect or even low level lotto ticket.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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I'd be really curious to see what the Nationals had on the table beyond Giolito and Robles. Rumor is they also had Reynaldo Lopez in their best offer. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Rick Hahn was just enamored with Moncada and once he was on the table, the Nationals were basically just there to leverage the Red Sox. I can't get my head around the idea that Moncada, Kopech, Basabe and Diaz is a better package, in a vacuum, than Giolito, Robles and Lopez.That's three top 40 prospects versus a top 5 (at worst) in Moncada, a top 50 in Kopech and two guys who probably aren't top 100 guys.

At mid-season Moncada was number 1. He may have slipped a few spots by the end of the year, but it wouldn't have been by much. Giolito was number 4 on that list and will probably clock in around the same spot this spring. Robles was 13 on that list and Lopez was 48. Kopech was ranked number 93, but obviously finished strong and had helium.

Of course, this is probably just the prime example of how teams don't really do top 10 or top 100 rankings in the way we like to think about prospects. Even still, I think the Nats turned down the better overall offer in order to secure the individual player they most coveted. That's obviously a defendable decision, but I'm not sure if I'd have made the same one if I was in Hahn's shoes.
 

Georgy Zhukov

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Aug 19, 2016
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There is no way Papi tops last year. The only way is downwards now. He left on a high note after a phenomenal season winning the Division. Time for everyone to let it go and Papi to sail off into the sunset a Legend for all time. It's done.
I'd take Papi at 75% of himself last year over 120 games of Moreland in a heartbeat
 

shepard50

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The fact that Moncada
I'd be really curious to see what the Nationals had on the table beyond Giolito and Robles. Rumor is they also had Reynaldo Lopez in their best offer. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Rick Hahn was just enamored with Moncada and once he was on the table, the Nationals were basically just there to leverage the Red Sox. I can't get my head around the idea that Moncada, Kopech, Basabe and Diaz is a better package, in a vacuum, than Giolito, Robles and Lopez.That's three top 40 prospects versus a top 5 (at worst) in Moncada, a top 50 in Kopech and two guys who probably aren't top 100 guys.

At mid-season Moncada was number 1. He may have slipped a few spots by the end of the year, but it wouldn't have been by much. Giolito was number 4 on that list and will probably clock in around the same spot this spring. Robles was 13 on that list and Lopez was 48. Kopech was ranked number 93, but obviously finished strong and had helium.

Of course, this is probably just the prime example of how teams don't really do top 10 or top 100 rankings in the way we like to think about prospects. Even still, I think the Nats turned down the better overall offer in order to secure the individual player they most coveted. That's obviously a defendable decision, but I'm not sure if I'd have made the same one if I was in Hahn's shoes.
The sweetener may have been that the Red Sox are paying all of the remaining 31M on Moncada's deal. That's a lot of money for the White Sox. Moncada is the closest thing to a ML ready player in either offer (last September notwithstanding), and getting a highly touted four tool player for free is not to be sniffed at.
 

Byrdbrain

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The money for Moncada was a signing bonus, while it is true that the Red Sox are paying all of it, it wasn't like there was an option.