Chris Sale (plus $17mil) traded to Atlanta for Vaughn Grissom

mannydelcarwreck

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A sense of relief, they took some action and that is relieving In itself.

We are in a bit of a hole and these types of trades are a good backdoor option that the prior CB GM would have never pursued. Big step in getting some breathing room imo.

Someone mentioned he was playing OF in the Winter League, one would think this changes ASAP.
 

twibnotes

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At the end he said “I’ll have something for you guys soon.” A big FA signing or trade?
It’s good to hear this kind of rhetoric - I think ownership was frustrated that bloom was a bit afraid to be bold at times
 

E5 Yaz

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At the end he said “I’ll have something for you guys soon.” A big FA signing or trade?
He's talking about Giolito. The question was about "something that broke last night that they can't comment on yet"
 

GPO Man

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It’s good to hear this kind of rhetoric - I think ownership was frustrated that bloom was a bit afraid to be bold at times
He seems very open about discussing the future of the team and the motive behind his moves, which is a breath of fresh air. I’m impressed that nobody had any idea about the Sale trade happening.
 

The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

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I wonder what kind of trade proposals involving Sale were rejected by Bloom the past two deadlines. I suspect given how much money is being conveyed to Atlanta here, the offers must have been at least comparable.
 

BigSoxFan

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I am not a huge Vaughn Grissom guy, but this is a legitimately good trade. Even being a somewhat of a doubter, Grissom has legitimate tools and could settle in an as a good enough (i.e., fringe average) second basemen and has upside with the bat (although not without significant questions about how often he can really barrel the ball). He is a way more talented player than Enmanuel Valdez.

That said, the Braves didn't make this trade solely because Grissom was blocked; there are legitimate questions with both Grissom's defensive profile and his ability to square up major league pitching. He needs to get at least one of those questions answered or he has basically zero value. The obvious intriguing part is if he answers both he's a 4-5 win player (or more).
Yup. This is why the Sox and Braves were good trade partners here. Braves probably wanted to lock in a return on Grissom and a subsidized Sale is a good bet for them. Sox are building for the future so they were willing to see if they can unlock that higher upside.
 

YTF

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I wonder what kind of trade proposals involving Sale were rejected by Bloom the past two deadlines. I suspect given how much money is being conveyed to Atlanta here, the offers must have been at least comparable.
IIRC, the little bit that we heard about a potential deal (with the Rangers?) was that there seemed to be some sort of frame work in place, but Bloom would go back asking for more coming back in personnel. I think this might have also been rumored about the potential JDM deal to the Mets in '22.
 

chawson

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I wonder what kind of trade proposals involving Sale were rejected by Bloom the past two deadlines. I suspect given how much money is being conveyed to Atlanta here, the offers must have been at least comparable.
With the exception of 2021, when he returned from TJS for nine August/September starts and a bad postseason, this was also the first trade deadline or offseason that Sale was demonstrably healthy since summer 2019. I imagine that helped his value a bit.
 

The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

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IIRC, the little bit that we heard about a potential deal (with the Rangers?) was that there seemed to be some sort of frame work in place, but Bloom would go back asking for more coming back in personnel. I think this might have also been rumored about the potential JDM deal to the Mets in '22.
That's the part of the reporting that really bothers me about Bloom. If Bloom really kept doing that, and allegedly he did in the talks for Sale as well as JD and possibly others, then that's operating in bad faith and the other GMs should have rightfully told him to f* off. Who did he think he was, Don Corleone telling Signor Roberto that the dog stays too?

The fact that Breslow has already been fairly prolific in his dealing with a variety of clubs bodes well.
 

chrisfont9

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That's the part of the reporting that really bothers me about Bloom. If Bloom really kept doing that, and allegedly he did in the talks for Sale as well as JD and possibly others, then that's operating in bad faith and the other GMs should have rightfully told him to f* off. Who did he think he was, Don Corleone telling Signor Roberto that the dog stays too?

The fact that Breslow has already been fairly prolific in his dealing with a variety of clubs bodes well.
Pretty sure they did tell him to F--off and he was fired for this reason, at least in part. Not sure why you should be bothered anymore. Justice was served already.
 

twibnotes

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That's the part of the reporting that really bothers me about Bloom. If Bloom really kept doing that, and allegedly he did in the talks for Sale as well as JD and possibly others, then that's operating in bad faith and the other GMs should have rightfully told him to f* off. Who did he think he was, Don Corleone telling Signor Roberto that the dog stays too?

The fact that Breslow has already been fairly prolific in his dealing with a variety of clubs bodes well.
Agree - dealmaking and negotiating are hugely important and there are some signs that bloom didn’t excel in those areas
 

twibnotes

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Pretty sure they did tell him to F--off and he was fired for this reason, at least in part. Not sure why you should be bothered anymore. Justice was served already.
What’s wrong with criticizing a baseball gm? It’s a relevant discussion since we’re obviously hoping breslow brings some things that maybe his predecessor lacked
 

cantor44

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Whether this trade works for the Sox all depends on Grissom's glove. If he can competently field at 2b, this could really help them next season, If he can't, it seems like all they did is pick up a right-handed Valdez, which is not what this team needs.
In the big picture, and if we assume the team is not going to be a championship contender next year, this at least saves them some money while getting good value for a player who was almost certainly gone next season.
I actually get the sense, as has been articulated above some, that the moves yesterday and today - and rumor of signing Teoscar - likely indicate additional moves still, most probably trading for a SP and signing a FA SP. And if they are able to sign Teoscar and get two quality SP, I actually think the team would contend for the post season - and I think that's the objective Breslow is heading towards. Or ... I hope at least.

To additionally echo some sentiment above, this feels like a pretty bold move, and intuitively a good one.
 

ShaneTrot

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I am liking the Breslow era. Sale can be great but he just hasn’t been healthy and will be 35 in March. Second base, and right handed hitting are needs and this helps.
 

Manramsclan

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I think the characterization of Grissom not being blocked is incorrect. With Albies at 2B they wanted him to compete for SS and Arcia beat him out. Arcia is a vet who is a better fit for the position defensively and offensively is league average. He also is a D first SS NOW which is valuable to them as they are in the championship window. The fact that they have plus bats at every other infield position and two OF positions made Grissom a bad fit for their roster. He isn't a SS but we don't need him to be. We need him to be a 2B and if he is solid defensively and above average offensively it's a HUGE upgrade over what the Sox have been rolling out there.
 

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What I took out of CB’s comments was that I get the sense he’s not done. He mentioned again the realization that high end prospects need to be traded for cost controlled, young quality starters.
Of course he's not done. There is literally no reason to think that he is on December 30th, with holes yet to fill.
 

streeter88

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I adore this trade. Easily the most I’ve agreed with any decision made by a Red Sox executive since the Bogaerts extension back in 2019, and nothing else is remotely close.

Grissom should be a pretty good bet to cover 2b for the next 6 seasons. Were none eligible to be ranked as a prospect, he’d likely be either 3rd or 4th in the system right now.

Here’s the odd thing - I also think this makes sense for Atl. They’re an almost sure fire playoff team, and at most they are depending on Sale to be maybe SP5 (Strider, Fried, Morton, Elder and Sale). His upside is of course immense, but if he pitches his customary 12 games, they also have AJ Smith Shuster waiting in the wings.

Grissom is an excellent hitter (I liked the Pedroia lite comparison) but isn‘t capable of handling SS defensively. He cannot be moved to 2b because of Albies. I think he would have been fine as a Benintendi like LF, but their line up is so disgustingly good that he can be moved for the upside (even like a 20% chance they get it) of Sale.

But Breslow moved one season of Chris Sale (on a team that is / was highly unlikely to make the playoffs anyway) for a built in 2b of the future that could shift to LF if need be. I do find it odd for anyone to say he “doesn’t have the bat” to be a corner OF.

At 21 he had a 146 wRC+ in A+, a 147 wRC+ in AA and at 22 in AAA it was a 135 wRC+. For comparison, Casas (I think we all like) had a 142 wRC+ in AA at 21 and a 127 wRC+ at age 22 in AAA. So at each stop, at the same age and same level, Grissom was a better offensive player than Casas. He just provided that value much differently.

I adore this deal so much that it makes me feel bad about complaining about only giving Gio a one year deal. If the Red Sox do literally nothing else this off season, I’d give the off-season on the whole a B grade. This is the most inspired, ballsy, well thought out move I’ve seen the Red Sox make in half a decade. It’s awesome.

Aside - a really close friend is a huge Braves fan. He is livid…
Thank you for this post. I was already thrilled that they were able to get a usable piece for the 35 y.o. oft injured Chris Sale. My favorite memory was the Machado K (Machado actually looked like a human K when he stopped flailing) followed immediately by Vasquez jumping into his arms. I was surprised Sale didn’t break right there.

But it sounds like Grissom might actually be a solid 2B and LF later on, and another poster had the deal as a $5M overpay for Atlanta.

Sorry about your friend; excited for the 2024 Red Sox literally overnight the team looks measurably better.
 
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BravesField

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Of course he's not done. There is literally no reason to think that he is on December 30th, with holes yet to fill.
And that hole just got deeper with one less southpaw. If my math is correct, 24 pitchers on the 40 man and 4 LHP. (Walter, Murphy, Jacques and Bernardino).

Sort of feels like we now have to sign Snell or Montgomery or Imanaga.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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I feel like it’s always been YY and one of Snell/Montgomery, or if no YY, then try for both of Snell/Montgomery
 

joe dokes

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And that hole just got deeper with one less southpaw. If my math is correct, 24 pitchers on the 40 man and 4 LHP. (Walter, Murphy, Jacques and Bernardino).
The hole is only deeper if you think that Sale was actually filling the hole.
 

Archer1979

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This is a good, probably, great trade. I wasn't sold that Sale was going to be anything other than a half season pitcher with limited, if any, trade value. Instead, the Sox got a potential cost controlled starting second baseman and $10MM in salary relief. If Grissom (love that #DirtyWater) becomes a major contributor, we're essentially paying $4MM a year (Grissom's &720K and 1/3 of $10MM for his three pre-arb years). Now, let's hope he can be a decent defender. To be honest, that's probably the biggest downside of this trade in that it doesn't move the needle much in improving a very poor defense.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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The hole is only deeper if you think that Sale was actually filling the hole.
You could argue losing Sale is more likely to actually save a roster spot given how often you need to find someone else to fill the innings he was supposed to start. As long as you do acquire a replacement, of course.
 

Yaz4Ever

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This is a good, probably, great trade. I wasn't sold that Sale was going to be anything other than a half season pitcher with limited, if any, trade value. Instead, the Sox got a potential cost controlled starting second baseman and $10MM in salary relief. If Grissom (love that #DirtyWater) becomes a major contributor, we're essentially paying $4MM a year (Grissom's &720K and 1/3 of $10MM for his three pre-arb years). Now, let's hope he can be a decent defender. To be honest, that's probably the biggest downside of this trade in that it doesn't move the needle much in improving a very poor defense.
Honest question - will he be worse at 2B than Kike (who I still love) was at SS for us last year? I'm looking at Story/Grissom being FAR better defensively than Kike/hodgepodge of 2B was last year. IF Story remembers how to hit, that makes the middle infield that much better than 2023.

I've said it numerous times, we were in the playoff hunt in '23 for much of the season. Improving our rotation so we don't use Openers, adding a 2b who can hit, and adding a RHH bat and we're significantly better. So far, the Giolito addition and loss of Sale is basically a wash for me. Giolito should give us more innings, which is huge, but I think Sale would've had better stats in his fewer innings. I'll wait and see how Grissom is offensively ('23 horrible numbers or great success in MiLB?) and what we do in terms of a RHH power hitter. Regardless, we need SP via trade/signings but I'm optimistic at this point.

edit: forgot to mention I'm excited about Bailey working with our pitchers. Perhaps he make Giolito even better, but I'm looking squarely at pitchers like Crawford taking a step forward this year. Houck, Crawford, Pivetta (depending on how they're used) could all be bigger pieces this year.
 

joe dokes

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Anthopoulos seems to think so.
Yes he does. Breslow does not. And the Braves are in a different position than the Red Sox.

The Cubs thought they were getting a SS when they got Nomar, after Theo decided the uncertainty at a critical position was hamstringing the team.

Like a lot of people, I was hoping for a Sale redemption story. But cutting bait is, IMO, the best plan for this team at this time. Who knows, maybe the likes of sometimes-starters like Whitlock and Hauck will be helped by the fact that "Sale's expected return" wont bump them from the rotation, no matter how well they do. (yes, I know they didn't;t do that well that often, and I know that 'professionals should be better than that,' but Sale's ever-present shadow probably didn't;t help their growth or confidence too much.)
 

chawson

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Sort of feels like we now have to sign Snell or Montgomery or Imanaga.
Paxton seems like a good addition at this point. He likes it here, should be stronger another year removed from surgery, and reasonably can give you what Sale was projected to.

I’m intrigued by Imanaga but not convinced that he’s better than Paxton. The former is 4-5x times as much, and the latter seems interested in pitching here.

FWIW, Steamer projects them to have very similar seasons.

JP: 26 GS, 142 IP, 24.4 K%, 8.2 BB%, 1.25 HR/9, 4.15 FIP, 2.3 fWAR
SI: 26 GS, 148 IP, 24.4 K%, 6.4 BB%, 1.24 HR/9, 3.91 FIP, 2.6 fWAR

That projection factors Paxton’s final few starts when he was clearly gassed and just giving us innings, so it may be pretty conservative.
 

moondog80

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That projection factors Paxton’s final few starts when he was clearly gassed and just giving us innings, so it may be pretty conservative.
The rate stats maybe. 142 IP seems very generous.
 

moondog80

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I’d think if the Sox thought he would hit that projection they’d have offered him the QO.
 

YTF

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Paxton seems like a good addition at this point. He likes it here, should be stronger another year removed from surgery, and reasonably can give you what Sale was projected to.

I’m intrigued by Imanaga but not convinced that he’s better than Paxton. The former is 4-5x times as much, and the latter seems interested in pitching here.

FWIW, Steamer projects them to have very similar seasons.

JP: 26 GS, 142 IP, 24.4 K%, 8.2 BB%, 1.25 HR/9, 4.15 FIP, 2.3 fWAR
SI: 26 GS, 148 IP, 24.4 K%, 6.4 BB%, 1.24 HR/9, 3.91 FIP, 2.6 fWAR

That projection factors Paxton’s final few starts when he was clearly gassed and just giving us innings, so it may be pretty conservative.
I might be on board if we were looking for a 4-5 type pitcher vs a top of the rotation type, but this team needs the latter and preferably a guy that you hope can pitch 160 + innings. I honestly don't see that from Paxton at this point.
 

moondog80

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It’s 24 more innings than he threw last year. He is 35 but it doesn’t seem outlandish.
It’s certainly not the 50th %ile outcome, which is what I take a projection to be.

That said, I want them to get two more starters, and I’d be perfectly content if he was the lesser acquisition.
 

allmanbro

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Apples to oranges IMO. The two rotations are in completely different places with the Brave looking to round out a rotation and the Sox looking to rebuild one. Paying only $10M of Sale's contract is also a plus for Atlanta.
This seems right. It seems likely the Braves could have gotten a much more reliable SP than Sale for Grissom. This makes me think reliability is not the goal for them. They have good depth, so it makes sense to gamble on upside, and fall back to Shawver, Waldrep, and Dodd when Sale, Fried, and/or Morton miss starts. That's definitely not where the Sox rotation is right now.
 

Archer1979

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Honest question - will he be worse at 2B than Kike (who I still love) was at SS for us last year? I'm looking at Story/Grissom being FAR better defensively than Kike/hodgepodge of 2B was last year. IF Story remembers how to hit, that makes the middle infield that much better than 2023.
First, with Story, his glove at SS was far better than I expected after the long layoff from the position. But, as you alluded to, his hitting was abysmal. I'm hopeful that his hitting was just a symptom of not having his timing back, but we're hoping that he has done two things that he hasn't done since he signed with the Sox... put together a full year and hit well when healthy. If not, he might be trade deadline fodder while the Sox try to bridge the gap to Mayer.

The thing with comparing the infield defense between 2023 and now is that Kike was gone by the trading deadline so the comparison is really between the parade of second basemen in the latter part of 2023 and Grissom. Urias and Arroyo are both gone and Turner has yet to have been re-signed so that leaves Reyes and Valdez neither of whom was a plus defender based on BaseballSavant (below). Hopefully, Grissom can at least be an average defender which is pretty much what you had with not only what the Sox had on the field for the latter part of '23, but also what was left on the roster.


https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_average?type=Fielder&startYear=2023&endYear=2023&split=yes&team=BOS&range=year&min=q&pos=4&roles=&viz=hide