Cheesesteaks vs. Chowdah Part I - The Sixers/Celtics Series Thread
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I wonder where those stats came from (Synergy?) stats.nba.com has Horford at 1.24 and Embiid at 0.78, general point still stands though Horford has been the best high volume post-up player in the playoffs and Embiid has been the worst high volume post-up player in the playoffs.
Also fun... Horford is averaging 1.61 PPP as the PNR roll man, best in the playoffs.
Their best 2 players are really young, they have cap space, and possibly another high draft choice, and *if* Fultz rebounds that's another young talent. And they just won 50+ games. What else do you need?
Yes, the Sixers have hope. Their pick is #10 in a 5-player draft unless the lottery gods are kind, but someone like Mikal Bridges might turn out to be pretty good. I'd love to see the Celtics snag his teammate, Jalen Brunson, with their late first rounder.
Based on what, exactly? I think a lot of people who don't really understand how NBA contenders are built got frustrated that they weren't getting 5-10 games better, sooner and caused him to be gone too soon. I see zero reason to think he didn't envision a period where he cashed in assets and tried to win---it is, if you read his paper and such, pretth much exactly what he was focused on doing, as he should have been. What makes you think otherwise, though, in terms of quotes/statements or moves--maybe I missed it?
Dude can you just stop posting made up nonsense??
iguodala left after 2012 so was not on any team Hinkie ran.
You have got 90% of the basic information wrong and have not started to check. You posted a link which disproved most of your summary of Hinkie moves.
Young players with a lot of talent tend to SUCK. They get better over time.
You have watched 3 game where Simmons has been awful, he's a rookie point guard. Have you seen what fox and Smith did?
Embiid was awful this series too, you act like this means he's crap. He's clearly not.
They have max cap space.
Also it's not a 5 player draft
Doncic, Trae Young, JJJ, Bamba, ayton, Carter, Bridges one and two, Bagley, Porter, these guys are all good.
Bridges (both) have put up excellent numbers at high level college competition.
In fact he openly talked about that in his exit letter and also admitted that having leadership in the locker room was something he undervalued and accepted that was a mistake irc
Yes, that's what i was referencing.
I think much of the Hinkie-bashing is just incredibly uninformed and embarassing. That's true here, and nationally and even moreso in the mainstream media. The guy had flaws, and we don't know whether he could have gotten there as a contender, but the job he did turning a bad situation into a very good one is pretty much unquestionable.
Yes, BJ - if this were a debating club you'd have been bitch-slapped off the stage by LS here. You keep burying yourself further the longer you keep this going so I'd recommend conceding the fact that is pretty much obvious to the rest of us here that LS has a much better handle on the Sixers' present situation and recent past than you do.
Like most everyone else here that's a Celtic fan, I am shocked and ecstatic about how well the series has gone for the Cs so far. I don't think it's over yet as I think Philly (or Phila?) is an immensely talented team and could have easily won yesterday and so can do so tomorrow. As Kevin Millar famously said 'Don't let us win tonight' - the Sixers have given up all room for error but many originally picked them to win in 5 so rattling off 4 straight isn't inconceivable.
So don't make the mistake of letting 3 games - two of them close ones - suddenly make you think the 76ers are overrated, or that Simmons and Embiid aren't world-class, or that Brent Brown is an idiot, etc, etc. None of that is true - we've just benefited from having our team get hot at the right time and having a couple of rolls go our way (each time I see Horford's layup roll to the edge of the rim and then come back and through I'm relieved!) Don't get cocky now - enjoy the place we're in but stay nervous until we win.
Like most everyone else here that's a Celtic fan, I am shocked and ecstatic about how well the series has gone for the Cs so far. I don't think it's over yet as I think Philly (or Phila?) is an immensely talented team and could have easily won yesterday and so can do so tomorrow. As Kevin Millar famously said 'Don't let us win tonight' - the Sixers have given up all room for error but many originally picked them to win in 5 so rattling off 4 straight isn't inconceivable.
So don't make the mistake of letting 3 games - two of them close ones - suddenly make you think the 76ers are overrated, or that Simmons and Embiid aren't world-class, or that Brent Brown is an idiot, etc, etc. None of that is true - we've just benefited from having our team get hot at the right time and having a couple of rolls go our way (each time I see Horford's layup roll to the edge of the rim and then come back and through I'm relieved!) Don't get cocky now - enjoy the place we're in but stay nervous until we win.
A. Sherrod tweeted that if both Eastern Conference series end in 6 games or less, Game 1 of the ECF is next Sunday 5/13. Not sure if that would be a 3:30 start on ABC or an 8 pm start on ESPN or TNT. I think last year the ECF was on TNT so my guess is that it would be an ABC/ESPN series.
It was a well-deserved slap. I should have remembered that Iguodala went out when Bynum came in. Bad short-term memory. And I realize that if some balls had bounced a little differently or if Belinelli's foot were a little smaller, the Sixers could have won games 2 and 3.
As to the outcome of Hinkie's work, que sera, sera. I don't have a crystal ball and will refrain from further comment.
As to the outcome of Hinkie's work, que sera, sera. I don't have a crystal ball and will refrain from further comment.
Amen. For all the grief he gets around here, sometimes deservedly so, Baynes has done a masterful job defending Embiid this series.
If you can't get Danny or Morey, don't bother hiring Hinkie. You can save a bunch of money by hiring LondonSox or any number of other posters here: it's not that difficult to clear out a roster and lose 60+ games a year for multiple years.
Good point. We should all settle down, and stop beating our chests till the confetti falls in Boston (if they do that at the Garden it needs to end).
I do remember turning to my brother, after the epic Yankee collapse, and saying the 2004 Red Sox would be brought up in perpetuity for every professional sports series that goes 3-0. 14yrs later and that team is still yielding dividends
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It's very very difficult to do that AND turn the franchise around through drafts and trades though. The Magic, Kings, Nets, Suns and Lakers can attest to that.
Sam Hinkie was a terrific GM, he had some flaws, but his plan was smart and his execution particularly on trades was terrific. He left the franchise in terrific shape with an elite talent, a pick that became another elite talent, a top 3 pick and another lottery pick coming. Add to that some very good complimentary players on cheap deals (Saric, Covington) and he left them an amazing core.
There are maybe 5 teams in the league whose core you'd rather have right now than PHI, and basically everything in that core came from Hinkie's moves.
And big john nothing but love man sorry if I came strong, as you can probably imagine you are NOT alone. It's a positive for the SoSH site and the forum that we have other teams represented so we can talk about the facts rather than narratives.
I also understand and accept that Celtic fans get and deserve to dance on the grave this year.
But I can honestly say this is not representative of the team's upside. They've played awful and a huge amount of credit for that should be given to the Celtics.
But look they played like absolute shit game one and in the forth they had a shot rim out to get to 4 points. They steal game one somehow and confidence is flipped etc. These Young's guys can turn around on a dime for short periods at least.
Just look at Rozier and the 4th it's some amazing play and even the best of all time would be proud.
The sixers maybe needed an ass kicking to stop smelling themselves too much.
I do think barring something odd this will be a rivalry for a long time.
I also understand and accept that Celtic fans get and deserve to dance on the grave this year.
But I can honestly say this is not representative of the team's upside. They've played awful and a huge amount of credit for that should be given to the Celtics.
But look they played like absolute shit game one and in the forth they had a shot rim out to get to 4 points. They steal game one somehow and confidence is flipped etc. These Young's guys can turn around on a dime for short periods at least.
Just look at Rozier and the 4th it's some amazing play and even the best of all time would be proud.
The sixers maybe needed an ass kicking to stop smelling themselves too much.
I do think barring something odd this will be a rivalry for a long time.
Not to bring up painful memories for hardcore Bs fans, especially after an already painful weekend, but ... the 2010 Flyers say hi.I do remember turning to my brother, after the epic Yankee collapse, and saying the 2004 Red Sox would be brought up in perpetuity for every professional sports series that goes 3-0. 14yrs later and that team is still yielding dividends
Hinkie is very smart, yes. His plan certainly makes sense and his greatest strength was getting full buy-in from ownership. But Hinkie went far beyond what Magic, Kings, Suns, or Lakers, and the Nets don't even belong in this conversation.
Trading assets for draft picks isn't that difficult. I mean Ainge did the same thing. PHI ended up drafting 3, 3, 1, and 1 in drafts that had very good to great players on top; I don't see Hinkie doing anything spectacular.
This.
Someone mentioned up thread that without "playing for now", the Celtics don't have their current team (specifically, they don't have Kyrie if they don't have IT and Crowder and play to win; and they likely don't have Horford and Hayward, either).
The Brooklyn trade was a huge thing for the Celtics and something that wasn't on the table for Hinkie to do, but ... Hinkie pulled off a couple of swindles of his own (the fleecings of Phoenix/Milwaukee in the MCW trade and of Sacramento) to land a couple of high picks. And it took some time for the full benefits of the Brooklyn trade to kick in - the first Brooklyn pick was James Young, it is the last 3 Brooklyn picks that made the difference for the Celtics.
Because they didn't have a Brooklyn trade, the Sixers needed to be worse than Boston and for longer. But it's not clear that the lengthy extended tanking that they did do was their best option.
It did eventually cost Hinkie his job (which should have been foreseeable), and they sacrificed the chance to compete in free agency and build value (and acquire picks) the way Ainge did even before the benefits of the Brooklyn trade started kicking in.
He just did it better. The Nets were obviously crippled by not having picks, but they wasted opportunities to get assets. The other teams listed there had were really bad in that stretch and came out worse. LAL had 3 straight #2 picks, PHO had 5,,4,4,8 ORL had 2,5,5,6.
The point is that all of those teams lost 50 plus a year as well, but didn't manage the assets of picks/xap/players as well as Hinkie and came out with less value and all are still terrible
Since we’re revisiting the great Process debate, I have a few more thoughts to add.
1) Tanking across multiple seasons — and advertising that fact — drew a lot of negative press and ire from the league. This might not affect the on court product but there is a political aspect to running a sports franchise. Especially in US professional sports, which run more like a cartel than a free market. If a bunch of teams followed the process you might see a lot of detrimental effects on the league, particularly when veteran players start seeing more of a haircut.
2) Relatedly, the process only works when other franchises aren’t doing it too. A race to the bottom — yes we’ve seen this — means that your odds are success diminish and frankly the on court product is embarrassing.
3) Playing the draft of course requires some good fortune. I am too lazy to look right now, but what were the expected/median outcomes of the Sixers’ selections? Of course if it doesn’t work out there are plan bs (as the Celtics famously demonstrated) but counter factuals are impossible to prove.
1) Tanking across multiple seasons — and advertising that fact — drew a lot of negative press and ire from the league. This might not affect the on court product but there is a political aspect to running a sports franchise. Especially in US professional sports, which run more like a cartel than a free market. If a bunch of teams followed the process you might see a lot of detrimental effects on the league, particularly when veteran players start seeing more of a haircut.
2) Relatedly, the process only works when other franchises aren’t doing it too. A race to the bottom — yes we’ve seen this — means that your odds are success diminish and frankly the on court product is embarrassing.
3) Playing the draft of course requires some good fortune. I am too lazy to look right now, but what were the expected/median outcomes of the Sixers’ selections? Of course if it doesn’t work out there are plan bs (as the Celtics famously demonstrated) but counter factuals are impossible to prove.
The Celtics should not be the comparison. Being able to outsource your tank with multiple unprotected picks from a terrible team is basically unprecedented and may never happen again
Edit- Beyond really getting the process the point was that hinkie did a good job with in that process and showed skills that could make make him a good GM for any team
Edit- Beyond really getting the process the point was that hinkie did a good job with in that process and showed skills that could make make him a good GM for any team
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Question: Will Fultz play tonight?
If I were Brett Brown, I play him for sure. Fultz can't shoot (for now), but he is a playmaker and he is elite when it comes to attacking the rim. I still think his floor is something like Rajon Rondo (which is admittedly not a great fit on a team with Ben Simmons, but the fact that guys like Simmons and Rondo are successful NBA players bodes well for Fultz having a career).
The lack of NBA experience is a problem for him, obviously. But down 3-0 the Sixers have nothing to lose and he is a great variance play.
If I were Brett Brown, I play him for sure. Fultz can't shoot (for now), but he is a playmaker and he is elite when it comes to attacking the rim. I still think his floor is something like Rajon Rondo (which is admittedly not a great fit on a team with Ben Simmons, but the fact that guys like Simmons and Rondo are successful NBA players bodes well for Fultz having a career).
The lack of NBA experience is a problem for him, obviously. But down 3-0 the Sixers have nothing to lose and he is a great variance play.
Ultimately 3 picks (16-17-18) ended up mattering, one of which is almost certainly outside the top 5 and another of which came in a historically weak draft. At the end of the day, that's not that far from Philly's Laker pick and 2 Sac picks.
Simmons was on the Ringer NBA show (came out this AM) and was shocked that Fultz didn't play at least a couple minutes in Game 3... for the reasons you mention, but also for the simple fact that if he came in and made few plays the crowd would've exploded. I bet we do see him tonight.
I also think that if (because) Philly is thinking long-term, the positive gain of letting Fultz see some playoff minutes would be valuable down the road.
(My iPhone desperately wants to autocorrect Fultz to adults)
(My iPhone desperately wants to autocorrect Fultz to adults)
I have to think at this point the 76ers would be thrilled to get Rondo out of Fultz. He could end up being a better player, but he also may never come close to that level. Who knows? His confidence might be permanently shot, and ironically, you're comparing him to a player who's had an over-abundance of confidence since his rookie campaign. I think his floor is much worse considering what we've seen.
If he's rusty and not ready though and bombs, which seems the more likely outcome, isn't that the last thing a guy with confidence issues needs?
I think one thing that only a few posters here have given adequate weight is the sheer amount of cap room you have. Your payroll commitments are $101 this year ($23 to an expiring Redick, $11 to an expiring Amir) but only $70 next year. Covington at $12.5 AAV, Fultz's rookie deal and Embiid at a max are your only substantial long-term commitments - and after next year, the last 2 years of Fultz are team options.
The Celtics are at $115 this year and $107 so far for next year. The cap this year was $99M and the luxury tax was $119M. Above that tax, the Celtics will only have the MLE, Bird rights, rookie contracts, and minimum salary deals as ways to add talent. Meanwhile, it's not inconceivable that the Sixers could add two max contracts in the offseason if they don't re-sign Redick, and they can certainly add one.
If you're evaluating the Sixers' prospects in the next couple of years, you need to use some imagination about what that team will look like when using its full financial power, too.
Why did Philly get rid of Nerlens Noel so quickly? I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely asking. He seemed like a good building block when they got him-an athletic big who could rebound and defend really well. Was it injuries, or is he just not that good? I know this last year in Dallas has been a disaster. It seemed like he did ok generally his first couple of years in Philly.
I'm not seeing the comparison with Rondo, other than the fact that they are point guards who can't shoot (right now). Fultz is bigger and far better at breaking down the man guarding him and getting a good look in the paint. Rondo is much more of a pure point guard and defender (lead the league in assists 3x, 4 all-nba defense teams). Funny thing about Rondo, he's shot a respectable 35.7% from 3 (on 507 attempts) since leaving Boston.
Simmons is a much more comparable player to Rondo (plus another 9 inches, which of course makes quite a bit of difference). Beyond play styles, Rondo as a floor for Fultz is off - Rondo made 4 all star teams and for better or worse his game gets better when the lights are brightest. I think most Philly fans would sign up right now for a future in which Fultz makes a couple of all star teams and develops a rep for being when the pressure goes up.
Simmons is a much more comparable player to Rondo (plus another 9 inches, which of course makes quite a bit of difference). Beyond play styles, Rondo as a floor for Fultz is off - Rondo made 4 all star teams and for better or worse his game gets better when the lights are brightest. I think most Philly fans would sign up right now for a future in which Fultz makes a couple of all star teams and develops a rep for being when the pressure goes up.
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They only got 3 picks anyway? 3 picks and the right to swap in 2017. Where the last one finishes hardly matters as they turned it into Kyrie Irving.
He's just not that good, and they had faith in Jahlil Okafor. In today's NBA, those players don't get paid what they used to and aren't all that valuable.
I’d be a little worried too that the boo birds may come out and it could get ugly. A week ago the Philly fans thought they were Finals bound. Seems like they’ve made the decision to bury Fulz which in his case may be best for the long term.
They aren't ready to vault. The Fultz pick really set them back in a significant way. Embid and Simmons are talented players, and they will get better, but they aren't enough. Wasting the number one pick on Fultz, assuming he doesn't turn it around, will end up being in the league of Sam Bowie over Jordan.
They can sign one max FA, two is dubious. But you also have to consider that Ben Simmons only has 2 cheap years left.
Yes but they have his bird rights, so re-upping him only costs money (and maybe lux-tax restrictions). Whatever top-level FAs they have come 2 years from now, that's who they're going to war with in the Simmons-Embiid era. I don't see how that diminishes my point, which was that what we see on the court this evening for the Sixers is not in any sense their potential as a team. They'll add a max contract this offseason, maybe George maybe (god forbid) James, maybe Jabari Parker or Tyreke Evans or something, at the same time as Boston is re-integrating Kyrie and Hayward into their team dynamic. Maybe we'll win out after both teams are done upgrading, maybe we won't, but we damn sure can't judge based on the teams as-composed today. That was largely London's point too, but he was talking more about the current players' performance levels, and I'm talking about how much room they have to grow through acquisition, in addition to player development.
People also forget that Hinkie and the Sixers almost (had) traded for Isaiah Thomas but decided to back out in 2015. That led IT4 to the Celts and the rest is history.
It would be super interesting to view an alternative universe where Hinkie actually got Isaiah Thomas.
IIRC it was part of the three team deal and the Sixers would have received Thomas and picks for MCW.
Link for the almost deal:
https://www.libertyballers.com/2015/2/19/8071679/michael-carter-williams-trade-milwaukee-bucks-isiah-thomas
It would be super interesting to view an alternative universe where Hinkie actually got Isaiah Thomas.
IIRC it was part of the three team deal and the Sixers would have received Thomas and picks for MCW.
Link for the almost deal:
https://www.libertyballers.com/2015/2/19/8071679/michael-carter-williams-trade-milwaukee-bucks-isiah-thomas
We've spoken multiple times on this board about the possibility of LBJ going to PHI. (Apparently, LBJ made a phone call to Simmons before game 3 so they certainly have a relationship.) But if LBJ and PG decide to team up and get to LA, there's not a ton out there this year. Boogie or trying to pry Aaron Gordon out of ORL might be their best options.
I don't know why they'd focus on making their other max player Boogie, Gordon (or Capela, or DeAndre Jordan) when they can't share a lineup with Embiid. Not to mention Cousins' achilles risk.
This Sixers team is a long way from competing with a full-strength Celtics squad that has Tatum, Brown, Horford, and then those two role players they will add next year, Hayward and Kyrie Irving.
This was their chance, and they appear to have blown it.
Tonight is a classic setup for a mailed-in loss at home. I will be impressed if Philly doesn't do that.
This was their chance, and they appear to have blown it.
Tonight is a classic setup for a mailed-in loss at home. I will be impressed if Philly doesn't do that.
As much as I hate the Lakers, I'd say Lebron going to a non-Houston western team is probably the best possible outcome for our title chances.
If you accept Cleveland, Houston, LA and Philly as the top 4, they probably rank for us
1. LA
2. Cleveland
3. Houston
4. Philly
He was a restricted free agent and colangelo misread the market. The fact he signed a qualifying offer for Dallas means it was a low key horrible trade.
One of the things I truely hate about colangelo is his trying to sell things, eg Noel was traded for a "first" which was obviously two seconds from the beginning. It fooled only the stupid and fuck you for trying to fake the trade.
I always felt that the right to match was worth something, I did think he'd get more than he did but was always a chance he took one year to become a UFA. The fact they good damn sold the pick as well made a true disgrace. They traded him for a distant second Anderson and cash.
He would have been a lot cheaper than amir. Allowing another piece.
But Dallas has seemingly given up on Noel too, I see the talent but it's hard to argue as more NBA teams move on.
The cap is set up to allow a max this year or next, if they strike out this year they can do one year deals again and try again next year. That's the window to sign a free agent or take on salary in a trade.
Personally, I don't really know why LeBron would go be on a question mark team on LA. To get both they have to lose randle and Lopez and maybe even dump dieng (I don't think that's true post Cavs trade but need to check).
They have Ingram, ball (who is a question mark re shot) Paul and LeBron and kuzma I guess.
Maybe that's enough but I don't know I see that team with zero depth getting past the west powers. And one injury ....
They moved Lance and Russell and Clarkson already.
That said the team has shown ability to find talent later in the draft.
We shall see and I'm far from expecting LeBron to sixers but I think this idea LA is done is a bit weird
The Sixers team is very young in terms of their core, has a max contract slot available, and has a #1 overall pick who could still fix his shot. They aren't a contender yet, but it is foolish to write them off as not being one in the future. They remain one of the highest variance teams in the game.
Honestly I really don't get this idea that a team built around players who have had sub 100 games each under their belts and cap space is done.
They played badly in a playoff series, and some are like this was their last chance?
It's not some ancient team with their best players on the decline.
Agreed - major overreaction. If the Sixers can land a guy like George, Kawhi, etc., they are right there with the elite teams in the NBA. I don’t think George is coming but Kawhi looks to be attainable and would be the perfect fit alongside Embiid and Simmons.
This is undoubtedly a big summer for the team but there is a lot to like here.