Cheatriots caught again - Ninkovich Suspended 4 Games

[crystalline]

I don't know what test Armstrong was trying to beat but Saline isn't going to help you beat a T/E ratio test.

It was a test for EPO - they measure hematocrit, or concentration of red blood cells. It helps endurance athletes.



If anyone claims that the NFL is using a stringent testosterone test-- Do you really believe that giving an athlete 3-24 hours, in which time he can do anything, doesn't help that athlete evade the test? Athletes with millions of dollars can for example carry their own clean urine in their locker at all times, and do a bunch of currently-unknown things that cutting edge drug labs are developing. (For example, what about drawing your own blood when off cycle and purifying your own epitest to inject later to reduce the ratio ?)

Forget about even just what we know about. The U-T article (written by Phan and Zeigler) talks about how the money available to NFL athletes makes it much easier for them to dope relative to Olympic athletes. And even for Olympic athletes, we know you must store old samples to test years later, as new PED science will beat current tests.

 

[Erik Hanson's Hook]

The argument that training and nutrition are better now and that's why people are bigger/stronger/faster is absurd. There's nothing new under the sun. People are lifting and eating now like always.

I know you like to quote your experience in these types of arenas, and I don't disagree that usage is high, but this is a ridiculous statement that doesn't pass the smell test.

Do you honestly believe that athletic training and nutrition haven't made huge strides since, say, the 80's?

 

[johnmd20]

I know you like to quote your experience in these types of arenas, and I don't disagree that usage is high, but this is a ridiculous statement that doesn't pass the smell test.

Do you honestly believe that athletic training and nutrition haven't made huge strides since, say, the 80's?

It has improved considerably. But extra lean chicken, kale, and quinoa isn't turning professional athletes into the machines they are today.

 

[Marciano490]

I know you like to quote your experience in these types of arenas, and I don't disagree that usage is high, but this is a ridiculous statement that doesn't pass the smell test.

Do you honestly believe that athletic training and nutrition haven't made huge strides since, say, the 80's?

Again, please tell me what's improved. Bompa and Sheiko and Zatsiorski have been around forever. Instead of just tossing out generalities and calling me ridiculous, please tell me one new principle of strength training or nutrition that didn't exist in the 80s. Maybe your average high schooler knows more now than his counterpart 30 years ago, but we're talking D-1 and professional S&C coaches.

 

[cornwalls@6]

Those who are steadfast in their utterly speculative, unprovable, its absolutely 100% of the players doing it position are picking a stupid hill to fight on. As has been pointed out by those that care to actually think analytically about it here, and in many past threads, the statistical likelihood of every single active player in the NFL using PEDS is extremely remote, if not impossible. And who really gives a fuck. There's ample evidence to suggest a strong majority of them do use something. And to tether this back to the title/subject of the thread, Ninkovich clearly has been using, got caught, and deserves the suspension, in that he violated the collectively bargained rules regarding PEDS. And the league has plenty of users on every team. What's the meaningful argument here?

 

[Marciano490]

Again, explain why one position is more speculative than the other.

Do we agree 100% of players work out?

Do we agree 100% of players use some sort of supplementation - protein, vitamins, glucosamine?

You guys are looking at PEDS as some big scary thing because you're not in that world. It's far, far more casual and rampant than y'all are making it out to be.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Here, how about this.

It seems really important to some people for there to be 2 or 3 super great humans in the league who have never done steroids, HGH, amphetamines or illicit prescription drugs. Papelbon's Poutine named a guy who surely couldn't be on anything and we pretty rapidly shot the logic behind that one down.

There are 1600+ players in the NFL. You "I just can't buy this 100 percent!!" Folks put your heads together and Name 5 who you guys think have never done anything and we will present arguments and hopefully some good data to cite why we feel they have. We'll take a look at their bodies, their siblings and parents, growth rates, injury history and recovery, and all the other fun factors to show why it is more likely than not that that individual has taken something illicit in his career.

You have proven quite literally nothing and that's the point. All the stuff you are citing is anecdotal. And you have no data to back you up nor is it possible to have it.

So please cite the data as to while you 'feel' the following players have used.

Robbie Gould
Rick Lovato
Johnny Hekker
Roberto Aguayo
Mike Windt


I wholeheartedly look forward to your thorough analysis of their family histories, their injury recoveries and growth patterns.

Also, not every kid practices for the SATs. I'd be willing to bet good money we have a member that didn't.

 

[johnmd20]

You have proven quite literally nothing and that's the point. All the stuff you are citing is anecdotal. And you have no data to back you up nor is it possible to have it.

So please cite the data as to while you 'feel' the following players have used.

Robbie Gould
Rick Lovato
Johnny Hekker
Roberto Aguayo
Mike Windt


I wholeheartedly look forward to your thorough analysis of their family histories, their injury recoveries and growth patterns.

Also, not every kid practices for the SATs. I'd be willing to bet good money we have a member that didn't.

I agree with the SAT thing. No way every student practices. That seems very unlikely. Of course, the SAT isn't quite like a multi million dollar contract. There isn't really a tangible reward for every student who takes the SAT. But in professional sports, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars or tens of millions of dollars. The reward is great. Getting caught is very rare. Why wouldn't they do something?

 

[Marceline]

Also, not every kid practices for the SATs. I'd be willing to bet good money we have a member that didn't.

I never practiced for the SATs, so you'd win that bet.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

I never practiced for the SATs, so you'd win that bet.

You never once saw an SAT style question prior to sitting for the exam? The format and style of the test was a complete surprise to you?

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Every person has seen sunlight. Wait....some people are blind.

 

[j44thor]

I never practiced for the SATs, so you'd win that bet.

But did you take adderrall???

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Dude, by your own admission you shat all over yourself earlier in this thread. Spare us the running around the ring with a WWE belt while you continue to smell.

And yet, you continue to make asinine statements yourself. How's the analysis on Robbie Gould's family history coming? I look forward to seeing his family tree.

 

[RG33]

Again, explain why one position is more speculative than the other.

Because your position is statistically almost impossible. It would be a black swan for it to be true. And this is a site that was borne from that kind of stuff.

Everyone agrees that a large majority of NFLers are using illegal PEDs. We're just pointing out the statistical craziness of your vehement argument that every-single-solitary-player-in-the-National-Football-League uses illegal PEDs.

I think your point about strength and conditioning and nutrition is valid with respect to almost all of that stuff was around 30-40 years ago -- I think the point people are trying to make there is that it wasn't universally applied by most folks -- whether you're talking high schoolers, college athletes, or even pro athletes. Nor was most of it done year-round by most of those folks I would imagine.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

And yet, you continue to make asinine statements yourself. How's the analysis on Robbie Gould's family history coming? I look forward to seeing his family tree.

You really fail to see how all of the data we have presented make the likelihood of any individual player never having taken a PED, amphetamine or prescription drug illicitly extremely low, huh?

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

You really fail to see how all of the data we have presented make the likelihood of any individual player never having taken a PED, amphetamine or prescription drug illicitly extremely low, huh?

What data? The testing thresholds? The ones that someone else quoted are so high because the human body can actually reach those levels, which is why IOC is even higher? I don't think I or anyone else has argued that the likelihood an individual player uses isn't low. What we've been saying is it's not the absolute 100% that you continue to pound the table on. Anyone with a grasp of statistics would know that in a sample size of 1600 people there is most likely literally nothing that will be 100% when it's something that is not inherent to a human being. 100% of people have skin. Cool. Doesn't help your cause.

The fact you won't back down that one single player in the entire league isn't using something is either ignorant or argumentative. And no, you can't prove it.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

You know what? It just dawned on me that spending time on this is fruitless, which is a point that crystalline made earlier. While your analytical approach of "100 percent is virtually impossible" is flawed, If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy that a handful of players have never taken PEDs, I can't be bothered to talk you out of your Robbie Gould jersey.

But here is why all of this is important:

1) because it creeps downwards. The use of PEDs, amphetamines and illicitly obtained prescription drugs continues to be at shocking levels (it is hard to say that it has grown as the data has been so difficult to interpret over time.) at the college and HS levels as players - and sometimes coaches - view them as necessary to take the next step.

2) these guys live in your community and do bad things, which are exacerbated by these substances. Because the use of these substances are so prevalent, it is hard for me to accept that the teams have no knowledge of them and may even enable their use (this is certainly the case with prescription drugs). But they appear to do a bad job of monitoring the psychiatric health of their players at the same time. The Colts have had three players pull guns on people in the last 5 years. Obviously the Patriots have Hernandez, and all teams have had horrible incidents with players. Had the Victim's attorney pressed the Patriots on what they had given Hernandez and how he had been monitored I think PED usage would have been virtually gone from the league within a year, because Every team is equally bad on this issue. And that makes it dangerous for communities in NFL cities and college towns.......and sometimes even High School communities.

 

[Dogman]

That's enough.

Posts, not posters.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Nope. Remember, the difference between kicking the ball two yards deep into the end zone and through the back of the end zone is a good chunk of money.

That's just not the case-- kicking remains more about accuracy (though of course leg strength does matter as well). I have no real idea if all the kickers are using and neither do you. I tend to think most all players are generally, but the incentives look different for kickers than position players for using. Which is why I think it's more likely some of them will have made different decisions.

 

[lithos2003]

That's just not the case-- kicking remains more about accuracy (though of course leg strength does matter as well). I have no real idea if all the kickers are using and neither do you. I tend to think most all players are generally, but the incentives look different for kickers than position players for using. Which is why I think it's more likely some of them will have made different decisions.

That's actually a great point - he's the exception rather than the rule, but look at Vinatieri and his longevity. He never had the leg to kick it through the end zone, but his accuracy is what has kept him around for so long. That being said, I think I fall on Yammer/crystalline's side in that I think all players use/have used. PEDs aren't just steroids...

 

[pedro1918]

What they don't remember is this: that to that point Palmeiro hadn't been on the disabled list A SINGLE TIME IN NINETEEN YEARS. That's not only unlikely – it's pretty much impossible absent some kind of medicinal aid. When was the first time he did go on the DL? Right after he came back from his suspension when he was (presumably) clean. And then he retired. What did he test positive for? Winstrol, for which one of the main uses is speeding recovery. Once you realize that, you start to realize that while Palmeiro was a very good player in his career, the only reason he was even in the conversation for HOF was the longevity and consistency fueled by his steroid use.

And... once you realize that he was using steroids for that purpose, you have to start wondering who else was using them for those purposes. At which point, you have to begin to wonder how many pitchers used them to get thru the grind of a 162 game season – not just guys like Clemens but also guys like Greg Maddux who seemed to defy the laws of age to stay on the field and relievers whose arms fall off when their managers Proctor them. I mean, Andy Pettite admitted as much and nobody thought to so much as ask who else amongst MLB pitchers might be using them the same way.

For my part, I think shortening recovery time is the single biggest reason athletes use PEDs – and by not really exploring that side of the steroid era in baseball, the media effectively left people with the wrong impression of why people use them and, as a result, who is likely to be using them.

Living in Maryland, I have vaguely alluded to this point with fans of the milk drinking, Esskay hot dogs eating, All-American, local-boy made-good who played shortstop for the Orioles for years. I am greeted with threats and death stares. I'm not mentioning his name for fear of reprisals.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

That's just not the case-- kicking remains more about accuracy (though of course leg strength does matter as well). I have no real idea if all the kickers are using and neither do you. I tend to think most all players are generally, but the incentives look different for kickers than position players for using. Which is why I think it's more likely some of them will have made different decisions.

While accuracy is important, distance is at least equally important if not more so as it applies to both kickoffs and field goals. In addition, as someone who kicked, the stronger your leg is at your address the more accurate you will be (which is one of the reasons why kickers smack the hell out of the ball even for short FGs). If it was all about accuracy you would regularly see kickers play until they were 70.

Vinatieri, Janikowski (who has been caught doing all kinds of drugs, but I don't think he has ever been banned for PEDS) are guys who have kicked for a long while, and those guys do exist. But the skeptic in me would note that Vinatieri's long has been pretty consistent his entire career - right in the low to mid 50s (he did have a mid-career, slight dip into the mid-to-high 40s in his last few years in NE and first few years in Indy, but has maintained the low to mid 50s over the last 5 seasons). Vinatieri makes good coin for a kicker. While you can't just look at his "long" in isolation, it does tell a bit of a story, and the consistency at this high level makes me a bit suspicious that he is 100% natural.

 

[dcmissle]

Living in Maryland, I have vaguely alluded to this point with fans of the milk drinking, Esskay hot dogs eating, All-American, local-boy made-good who played shortstop for the Orioles for years. I am greeted with threats and death stares. I'm not mentioning his name for fear of reprisals.

I'm just mildly surprised that the same didn't greet Nink's well worn over-the-counter apologia. Progress!

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Living in Maryland, I have vaguely alluded to this point with fans of the milk drinking, Esskay hot dogs eating, All-American, local-boy made-good who played shortstop for the Orioles for years. I am greeted with threats and death stares. I'm not mentioning his name for fear of reprisals.

My wife's family are in Ellicott City and my father in law has actually done some work with the team. While I am 100% certain that you are right, I think you are 100% correct in never saying anything. Tom Brady fans consider C** R***** fans to be insane.

 

[Otto]

I have a client who has made many millions of dollars playing in the NFL, who buys only supplements from the approved list he gets from his team, and who gets independent second medical opinions for stuff as basic as pain medication. He's also the modern prototype for his position, way too big and tall to run 4.3, but he does. Of course, I can't prove anything, but I'd bet a substantial amount of money that he's never taken any banned substance.

 

[dcmissle]

I'm just mildly surprised that the same didn't greet our universal rejection of Nink's well worn over-the-counter apologia. Progress!

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Not that this adds any insight as to whether he's using, but part of Vinatieri's career arc includes going to a dome to kick for half of his games, which may affect his long average yearly.

Anyway, I don't see why kickers and punters wouldn't have the incentive to use as it is. I think Kluwe alluded to this in one of his reddit/Deadspin appearances, the repetition of kicking and punting is extremely tiring. Of course it would be helpful for these guys to take something to recover quicker.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I have a client who has made many millions of dollars playing in the NFL, who buys only supplements from the approved list he gets from his team, and who gets independent second medical opinions for stuff as basic as pain medication. He's also the modern prototype for his position, way too big and tall to run 4.3, but he does. Of course, I can't prove anything, but I'd bet a substantial amount of money that he's never taken any banned substance.

Can these guys take things like Sudafed for a cold (which of course is no longer "real" Sudafed, it's the psuedoephedrine). Always been curious about that.

 

[Otto]

Psuedoephedrine (Sudafed and Actifed) are banned, unless taken pursuant to a specific type of prescription.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Thanks Otto.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

I have a client who has made many millions of dollars playing in the NFL, who buys only supplements from the approved list he gets from his team, and who gets independent second medical opinions for stuff as basic as pain medication. He's also the modern prototype for his position, way too big and tall to run 4.3, but he does. Of course, I can't prove anything, but I'd bet a substantial amount of money that he's never taken any banned substance.

There was some article a few years back that said that for a significant percentage of NFL players the person who pushed them hardest to take PEDs was their agent. You need to do a better job.

The horrifying part was that the first person to push them was pretty evenly distributed between HS position coach, college position coach, college "groomer" and......parent.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Not that this adds any insight as to whether he's using, but part of Vinatieri's career arc includes going to a dome to kick for half of his games, which may affect his long average yearly.

Anyway, I don't see why kickers and punters wouldn't have the incentive to use as it is. I think Kluwe alluded to this in one of his reddit/Deadspin appearances, the repetition of kicking and punting is extremely tiring. Of course it would be helpful for these guys to take something to recover quicker.

Agreed, but look at the way it plays out. He dips in his last years in NE, remains at that dip level for his first few years in IND, then in the last 5 years is back to his early career number. Like I say, the long is not a great measure that tells the whole story, but it raises an eyebrow.

 

[Bleedred]

I have a client who has made many millions of dollars playing in the NFL, who buys only supplements from the approved list he gets from his team, and who gets independent second medical opinions for stuff as basic as pain medication. He's also the modern prototype for his position, way too big and tall to run 4.3, but he does. Of course, I can't prove anything, but I'd bet a substantial amount of money that he's never taken any banned substance.

To me, the "debate" going on here as to whether or not 99.95% of players use v. 100% of players use is a waste of time. However, in an effort to end it, I ask: Yammer, do you think that Otto is likely wrong that his client has never taken a banned substance? If you thnk Otto is probably right, then can we stipulate that it's likely that the percentage of players that use PEDs is not 100%, but that is a distinction without meaning, given that practically every player uses or has used PEDs?

 

[Ralphwiggum]

I'm not sure why it matters if the usage rate amongst NFL players is 100% as opposed to 99%, 90% or even 75%. I think most sane people agree that the usage rate is probably very high, the testing protocols a joke, that the league generally just does not give a shit about PEDs effects on players, and is only looking at how to manage it as a PR issue.

The bottom line is that if you are a fan of the league you are rooting for guys who are using, so there's no real joy in seeing one of the "bad guys" on the Ravens (or Steelers or whatever) get busted, just as there is no real shame in a guy like Nink getting busted. I'd like to think that some guys are clean, Brady being chief among them, but I am not holding out a ton of hope and nothing would surprise me. As with Ripken and Palmeiro, you'd be crazy not to look at Brady's longevity and durability without at least a little bit of skepticism, even if avocado ice cream does have magical effects on people.

The problem with PEDs in professional sports trickling down to the lower levels is a real problem, but short of giving up watching the league until they take the problem more seriously, I am not sure what can be done about it. Honestly it is the NFLPA who should be pushing for more stringent tests and harsher penalties if they truly wanted to make room in the league for clean players to succeed. The owners have shown over and over again they don't give a shit about the health of the players in the league, and have no incentive (again, beyond public relations) to die on this hill.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Also, the other place where it would be much, much easier to impose real tests for PEDs would be in college. If you succeed there then the NFL would theoretically be looking at the track records of guys who are mostly clean, even if it is easier for them to start using in the NFL. Unfortunately the NCAA may be more corrupt and evil than the NFL so good luck with that.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

To me, the "debate" going on here as to whether or not 99.95% of players use v. 100% of players use is a waste of time. However, in an effort to end it, I ask: Yammer, do you think that Otto is likely wrong that his client has never taken a banned substance? If you thnk Otto is probably right, then can we stipulate that it's likely that the percentage of players that use PEDs is not 100%, but that is a distinction without meaning, given that practically every player uses or has used PEDs?

I don't have any insight into his relationship with his clients so I don't want to speculate. With that said, never is a long time.

On the second item we have just moved on.

 

[Marciano490]

There was some article a few years back that said that for a significant percentage of NFL players the person who pushed them hardest to take PEDs was their agent. You need to do a better job.

The horrifying part was that the first person to push them was pretty evenly distributed between HS position coach, college position coach, college "groomer" and......parent.

Guy could've made tens of millions instead of just millions.

How are we classifying things like insulin and igf? I assume they're banned, but is there even an accurate test?

 

[amarshal2]

I have a client who has made many millions of dollars playing in the NFL, who buys only supplements from the approved list he gets from his team, and who gets independent second medical opinions for stuff as basic as pain medication. He's also the modern prototype for his position, way too big and tall to run 4.3, but he does. Of course, I can't prove anything, but I'd bet a substantial amount of money that he's never taken any banned substance.

Thank you.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Thank you.

Just as an aside, are you old enough to know any parents of kids who have been caught doing drugs? If you are, I would ask you what percentage suspected and what percentage were shocked. Then I would have a smug look on my face.

 

[amarshal2]

Just as an aside, are you old enough to know any parents of kids who have been caught doing drugs? If you are, I would ask you what percentage suspected and what percentage were shocked. Then I would have a smug look on my face.

So Otto is a naive, loving parent. Cool.

There are obvious reasons Otto shared this one story. He picked a guy who is the prototype for his position that does things normal people can't do. And he shared that this guy probably doesn't cheat. I'd love answers to a range of questions Otto can't answer for other obvious reasons. He can't tell us what percentage of his players he thinks take stuff. He can't admit to knowing some players who do. He can't start pointing out examples of other guys who don't cheat because it will raise questions about the others. All he can do is share one story. And he chose the best example he could, giving extra information that's pretty telling, in my opinion.

As an aside, I already knew there was a smug look on your face.

 

[Otto]

Guy could've made tens of millions instead of just millions.

How are we classifying things like insulin and igf? I assume they're banned, but is there even an accurate test?

Insulin Growth Factor is a banned substance.

 

[Marciano490]

Insulin Growth Factor is a banned substance.

A quick search shows there's no test for it, is that your understanding?

 

[dhappy42]

Another problem with any PED discussion is that not all PEDs are equal. There's a big difference between the purposeful use of anabolic steroids or HGH and the accidental use of sudafed or trace amount of some other banned substance in an over-the-counter supplement. Not saying the latter is okay, just different.

Also, there's some arbitrariness about what is a PED. Caffeine can improve performance. The line between nutrition and pharmaceuticals can be fuzzy.

The only thing that's clear is that the NFL's PED policies have little or nothing to do with player health or the " integrity of the game" and are only about PR, mainly keeping Congress placated enough that the league's anti-trust exemption isn't scrutinized. As always, it comes down to money.

 

[Otto]

A quick search shows there's no test for it, is that your understanding?

I don't know enough about that aspect of testing to have an opinion.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Another problem with any PED discussion is that not all PEDs are equal. There's a big difference between the purposeful use of anabolic steroids or HGH and the accidental use of sudafed or trace amount of some other banned substance in an over-the-counter supplement. Not saying the latter is okay, just different.

Also, there's some arbitrariness about what is a PED. Caffeine can improve performance. The line between nutrition and pharmaceuticals can be fuzzy.

The only thing that's clear is that the NFL's PED policies have little or nothing to do with player health or the " integrity of the game" and are only about PR, mainly keeping Congress placated enough that the league's anti-trust exemption isn't scrutinized. As always, it comes down to money.

Agreed on all counts

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

A quick search shows there's no test for it, is that your understanding?

Awesome interaction with my wife (a physician).

Me: "If a person were to use Insulin Growth Factor, could you test for it and detect the usage? That seems like it would be really hard to detect."

Wife: <Thinks for about a full minute> "Why do you ask me this shit?"

 

[tims4wins]

Awesome interaction with my wife (a physician).

Me: "If a person were to use Insulin Growth Factor, could you test for it and detect the usage? That seems like it would be really hard to detect."

Wife: <Thinks for about a full minute> "Why do you ask me this shit?"

See, in my house I can just reply "SoSH" and she'll understand. It's fantastic.

 

[McBride11]

Igf 1 and insulin levels (plus telling if its exo- or endogenous) are available in the medical field. Whether the NFL cares to check or spend the money is another question.

https://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/igf1/tab/test/

 

[E5 Yaz]

See, in my house I can just reply "SoSH" and she'll understand. It's fantastic.

But how do you pronounce it?

 

[tims4wins]

But how do you pronounce it?

I'm a short O guy