Champions League 2019-20: The Final Countdown

coremiller

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,854
He was never at the level he's at now before playing for City/Pep. He was a a well known commodity and an excellent player, but he's at another level now. I'm skeptical that if he played for some of the bum managers that Messi and Ronaldo have dealt with would improve his game.
KDB was the best creative midfielder in the Bundesliga in his only full season at Wolfsburg at age 23 before his City transfer, when had 10 goals and 20 assists. He was already on track for superstardom.

Part of the issue with Neymar is that Messi and Ronaldo have set such a much higher bar for greatness than was the case in previous generations. Neymar compares pretty well with the Ballon d'or winners from the decade before Messi/Ronaldo started monopolizing it in 2008. He's just as good as players like Owen and Nedved and Shevchenko and Kaka were. That he's not on Messi's level is no fault of his own -- Messi is a once-in-a-century player.

Part of it is the Brazilian/Nike heritage and the hype. Brazil has been clamoring for the next great Brazilian star since Ronaldinho and Kaka faded away and Neymar was supposed to be it.

Part of it is PSG. I think Neymar really might have ascended to the truly top level of achievement and reputation if he hadn't gone to PSG, but it's just impossible to have the same popular impact playing in a non-competitive league nobody watches or cares about. HIs stats have been amazing in Ligue 1, but it doesn't really matter, and while he's played decently in some CL knockout matches he hasn't lit it up. Plus PSG has a limited organic fanbase and most neutrals dislike them. HIs transfer also screwed up Barcelona; there's a good chance Barca would have won at least one more European Cup if he'd stayed.
 

Zososoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2009
9,245
South of North
Think you’ve got this wrong. KDBs reputation would be higher if not managed by Guardiola. Very few managers would force him deeper into a b2b role. His stats would be even more gaudy if the team was built around getting him space in creative areas which 99% of teams would do.

But in regards to the list, only Mbappe is a young player. Neymars “problem” is that he’s old enough now that he’s not in the top 5 and maybe not top 10 of players youd want right now and there’s a group gathering below him who are younger who will have more value as they mature
WRT KDB, I think Pep definitely has a system in place, but I think that system is built around KDB when he's playing. To the extent he has defensive responsibilities and tracks back it's because that's the defensive system Pep wants and KDB is always going to have at least 2 players ahead of him (usually 3). Iniesta always had defensive responsibilities too for example.

MANC have an insane amount of depth and quality all over the field, but they probably could do better with the #8 (CMF) in their best XI. I'm thinking about Lucho's 2015 Barca, where Rakitic in his prime let Andres focus on attacking more. Barca were content to defend with 6 and they were still a dominant possession-based team, just one that also had an insane front 3 that could kill on the counter with SNM.

I'd only slightly disagree with your assessment of Neymar. He basically has another year, maybe 2, to cement his legacy IMO. While there's a younger group behind him gaining steam in Sancho, TAA, Havertz, Rashford, Haaland, Werner, Lautaro, et al. I'd say I'd take Ney over everyone in that group for the next 2 seasons without thinking twice with the exception of Lautaro (forgive the albiceleste-colored glasses if you disagree).

One thing about Neymar that he is dinged for and fairly IMO is his apparent lack of commitment in his prime. He exacerbated this by going to Paris and continuing to engage in the party lifestyle. Ney won the big stuff with Barca at a young age and wanted to do it his way and I won't begrudge him that. However, by not bringing the trophy with the big ears to Paris (yet) he is losing on the bet he made when he signed with PSG since that's the only trophy they're judged by. I'm fairly sure Dinho partied his ass off the whole time he was at Barca, but he did it while winning everything. It certainly slowed him down towards the end, but I won't hold it against him because he delivered.

TL;DR - I agree with @coremiller 's post above.
 

bosox4283

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Mar 2, 2004
4,697
Philadelphia
Red Bull look solid. I think Atletico need to make some sort of tactical adjustment or substitution at halftime.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,850
KDB was the best creative midfielder in the Bundesliga in his only full season at Wolfsburg at age 23 before his City transfer, when had 10 goals and 20 assists. He was already on track for superstardom.

Part of the issue with Neymar is that Messi and Ronaldo have set such a much higher bar for greatness than was the case in previous generations. Neymar compares pretty well with the Ballon d'or winners from the decade before Messi/Ronaldo started monopolizing it in 2008. He's just as good as players like Owen and Nedved and Shevchenko and Kaka were. That he's not on Messi's level is no fault of his own -- Messi is a once-in-a-century player.

Part of it is the Brazilian/Nike heritage and the hype. Brazil has been clamoring for the next great Brazilian star since Ronaldinho and Kaka faded away and Neymar was supposed to be it.

Part of it is PSG. I think Neymar really might have ascended to the truly top level of achievement and reputation if he hadn't gone to PSG, but it's just impossible to have the same popular impact playing in a non-competitive league nobody watches or cares about. HIs stats have been amazing in Ligue 1, but it doesn't really matter, and while he's played decently in some CL knockout matches he hasn't lit it up. Plus PSG has a limited organic fanbase and most neutrals dislike them. HIs transfer also screwed up Barcelona; there's a good chance Barca would have won at least one more European Cup if he'd stayed.
Are they? Goals and assists don't tell the whole story, but Neymar hasn't really had any jaw-dropping numbers. Part of that is he hasn't played very much, over the last three seasons Neymar has only played in 47 Ligue 1 games. He has been good for about a goal a game which is great, but when you consider how little he has played, and the obvious advantageous of playing for PSG against Ligue 1 competition, it doesn't really stand out. In his last season at PSG Zlatan scored 38 goals and had 13 assists. Mbappe has more impressive totals as a teenager. Cavani has way more goals, albeit it is hard to say he didn't benefit from Neymar feeding him the ball.

https://fbref.com/en/players/69384e5d/Neymar
 

bosox4283

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Mar 2, 2004
4,697
Philadelphia
That RBL goal was coming, it was a very labored start to the half from
Atletico.
Yup. Simeone opted to play his system over talent -- with this plan, he was forced to include Herrera rather than Joao Felix. Herrera was a hot mess.
 

Jimy Hendrix

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 15, 2002
5,858
Imagine this with Leipzig having a striker who could do anything other than (admittedly quite admirable) hold-up play.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
43,006
AZ
Maybe a bit generous not to be an OG, but who cares!

What a great pass -- most players would have played that toward the runners in the box instead of having the vision to put it in the open space.
 

coremiller

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,854
That was a brilliant first-time pass from Sabitzer to create the attack.

"Trippier slightly out of position." Spurs fans are nodding knowingly.
 

cromulence

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 25, 2009
6,808
Maybe a bit generous not to be an OG, but who cares!

What a great pass -- most players would have played that toward the runners in the box instead of having the vision to put it in the open space.
Looked like it was going to be on target, so it has to be Adams' goal.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
43,006
AZ
RBL are losing their minds in the last 4 minutes. Like they almost can't believe they are in position to close it.
 

bosox4283

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Mar 2, 2004
4,697
Philadelphia
The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. Simeone's won a lot of games for Atletico with negative but effective tactics.
Good point. My frustration stems from the fact that Simeone still plays as if it were 2013-14 when he had a rather ragtag group of players and molded them into a physically imposing and defensively superb club.

Simeone's success has permitted the team to acquire talented players -- Griezmann, Joao Feliz, Vitolo, Llorente, Carrasco, Morata, Costa, Lodi, etc.

I want Simeone to maximize his talent, not force players to dull down their skills to fit his rigid system. He doesn't have to sacrifice defensive -- he can find a better balance.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
43,006
AZ
I find Carragher to be positive and engaging in the studio. Doesn't he have a reputation as being kind of a jerk and sort of sarcastic in his media role?
 

Jimy Hendrix

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 15, 2002
5,858
I find Carragher to be positive and engaging in the studio. Doesn't he have a reputation as being kind of a jerk and sort of sarcastic in his media role?
Might be more of a nurture thing than a nature thing. Chuck him in a studio with aggressively pleasant Roberto Martinez being asked nice questions, you maybe get chiller vibes than being in the British Punditdome
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
43,006
AZ
Might be more of a nurture thing than a nature thing. Chuck him in a studio with aggressively pleasant Roberto Martinez being asked nice questions, you maybe get chiller vibes than being in the British Punditdome
Good point -- Martinez seems like saying something negative would be pulling teeth.
 

ninjacornelius

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 18, 2005
584
Austin, TX
Was that the biggest club goal ever scored by an American?
Ha, I just asked this exact same question in the "Americans Abroad" thread. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that compares, but I hope that more informed soccer historians can correct me. Like, did Steve Cherundolo ever score a goal that spared Hannover from relegation?
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
22,429
Philadelphia
Ha, I just asked this exact same question in the "Americans Abroad" thread. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that compares, but I hope that more informed soccer historians can correct me. Like, did Steve Cherundolo ever score a goal that spared Hannover from relegation?
I feel like it has to be the biggest, given it was a game winner and in the QFs of the biggest club tournament in the world. Honorable mentions to Clint Dempsey's late goal for Fulham to complete a big comeback against Juventus in the Europa League knockouts and John Harkes scoring for Sheffield Wednesday in a League Cup final.
 

ninjacornelius

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 18, 2005
584
Austin, TX
I feel like it has to be the biggest, given it was a game winner and in the QFs of the biggest club tournament in the world. Honorable mentions to Clint Dempsey's late goal for Fulham to complete a big comeback against Juventus in the Europa League knockouts and John Harkes scoring for Sheffield Wednesday in a League Cup final.
Two great examples! I had completely forgotten about the Harkes goal (probably because it was in a losing effort), but that Dempsey goal was probably the biggest prior to Adams.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,832
Are they? Goals and assists don't tell the whole story, but Neymar hasn't really had any jaw-dropping numbers. Part of that is he hasn't played very much, over the last three seasons Neymar has only played in 47 Ligue 1 games. He has been good for about a goal a game which is great, but when you consider how little he has played, and the obvious advantageous of playing for PSG against Ligue 1 competition, it doesn't really stand out. In his last season at PSG Zlatan scored 38 goals and had 13 assists. Mbappe has more impressive totals as a teenager. Cavani has way more goals, albeit it is hard to say he didn't benefit from Neymar feeding him the ball.

https://fbref.com/en/players/69384e5d/Neymar
This chart was used in a piece to support Arsenal’s signing of Willian. But look who that crazy outlier is - KDB. Yes, Neymar is a fantastic player who will always fall short of being the next Messi/Ronaldo...but KDB is quietly putting together an all-time great career.

The resolution kind of stinks - it’s expected shot assists per 90 on the x-axis, expected assists on the y for EPL players with 1500+ minutes this past season.

33319

Edit: Obviously KDB falls short in important intangible, unmeasurable areas like leadership and wearing arm bands effectively. But it’s no knock to come in second to Jordan Henderson in those vital categories.
 
Last edited:

Zososoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2009
9,245
South of North
Damn, that was a really entertaining match. I fucking love RBL and I honestly think I'd trade their squad and manager straight up for Barca's situation right now. The Total Soccer podcast has been excellent this week and they had a bit where they talked about Nagelsmann's career path and how he intentionally turned down Bayern more than once because he wants to build up his bona fides before trying to walk into an elite club dressing room, where the world class stars frequently tune out managers who weren't world class players themselves (see: Setien, Q; Benitez, Rafa).

So Nagelsmann is obviously a super talented manager, but it's still about the players. Upemecano just added $10-15M to his price tag and god knows how much to his wages. Angelino is officially destined for Barca or Madrid. Olmo likely as well. I mean the majority of the XI is in their early prime and Nagelsmann has them playing cohesive, flowing futbol. It's a thing of beauty.

Watching all this high level football the past week just highlights to me how slow and sluggish Barca are. It will be frankly embarrassing to watch them step on the pitch today against Bayern, who's like RBL but on a Boz-worthy amount of anabolic steroids. Barca are that team in your men's league (e.g. my team, the 5-time champion Dutch Ovens) who have plenty of talent, know each other super well, but still can only compete with the best teams when they have some young ringers to do the heavy lifting and put them over the top [/humblestbrag]. I mean, there's no facet of the game where I expect Barca to compete. Going back to the Nagelsmann pipe dream, he would likely never agree to manage this squad because it's so far from a modern and fast outfit. This also makes Setien an awkward fit from a defensive standpoint because he's a high-pressing manager. While Setien was a terrific fit from an offensive standpoint (I put it on the players for not buying into his attacking philosophy), Setien is almost certainly out of his depth in a UCL QF.

The only relatable inspiration I can think of for this Barca team is 2007 UCL winners Milan. That team was also old and slow as dirt (average age 30+) and had comparable players and roles. That team was anchored in defense by Nesta and Maldini, had Pirlo pulling the strings from deep, let Kaka roam in a free role, had a poacher in Inzaghi up top, used the FBs to provide width, while Gattuso, Ambrosini, and Seedorf stirred the drink in the middle. It's easy for me to see the comparison with this Barca--no traditional wingers, strength in the middle of the attack, a player who can create problems in a free role, a deep lying playmaker DMF, and FBs who can get forward and provide width. Where the comparison breaks down is the 3 workers who stir the drink. While FDJ can match up with one of them, Vidal and Rakitic are no longer elite. In addition, Griezmann is likely to start, so we're likely looking at a more aggressive approach than the defensively sound Milan side.

A really clever manager that knows his squad well and has their confidence could pull an upset with this Barca today, but that's far from the case. I expect Bayern to steamroll Barca today and the only question in my mind is whether Messi can make it interesting.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
22,429
Philadelphia
Barcelona XI: Ter Stegen; Semedo, Piqué, Lenglet, Alba; Busquets, Roberto, De Jong, Vidal; Messi, Suárez.

Bayern XI: Neuer; Kimmich, Boateng, Alaba, Davies; Goretzka, Thiago; Perišić, Müller, Gnabry; Lewandowski.

Bayern is my pick to win the whole tournament (with City close behind) at this point so I like them here. But anything can happen in a single match.
 

coremiller

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,854
Barca are playing four CMs and only two attackers while Bayern have a CF and two natural wingers. Barca should have 4 vs 3 in the center while Bayern have an edge on the wings. The Bayern wingers mean the Barca FBs (esp Alba) will not be able to get forward. OTOH Barca packing the middle means Bayern's build-up play could struggle.

Hard to see how Barca can generate much attack unless Messi just does Messi things, which of course could happen.

This seems like a very Simeone-ish setup from Barca.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
22,429
Philadelphia
Its the biggest match of the season and Barca are starting a 33-year-old Arturo Vidal while three other attacking players sit on the bench (two on Barca's, one on Bayern's) who cost the club a total of nearly 400m.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,832
This is a wild one. Enjoying it now before all the old men on the pitch tire out.