Celtics trade Josh Richardson, Romeo Langford and a 1st round pick to Spurs for Derrick White

[DavidTai]

Have we ever seen McPickl and Danny Ainge together in the same room?

If a team has to win every trade, it's going to miss chances to improve. The Cs got a guy who slots as one of the top 3rd guards in the league for a draft pick that was likely going to be in the 20s, a scratch-off ticket that is unlikely to be in SAS in two years no matter how good he is (poor roster fit) and was included as much for salary as anything else, and The Swap. SAS wasn't going anywhere this season. It's not like they had to make the trade.

I'd also note the 3rd guard is signed to a contract -already- that seems like a fair price for his quality for a number of years. So there's cost certainity involved there too. That's worth -something-.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

And, as a secondary but still significant issue, picks swaps are compliant with the Stephen rule.

 

[lovegtm]

And, as a secondary but still significant issue, picks swaps are compliant with the Stephen rule.

Yup, matters a lot for All The Pickz deals, and I still feel like Brad has one of those in him at some point.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Has there ever been a trade where the pick swap is automatic and it does not matter who has the better record? That would be a sick gamble to make, obviously.

No. That's just gambling.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

And, as a secondary but still significant issue, picks swaps are compliant with the Stephen rule.

Stepien, though I'm guessing Autocorrect got you.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Stepien, though I'm guessing Autocorrect got you.

If we've learned anything so far, the Stephens rule is that you send out guys who don't play defense and bring back guys who do.

edit: sic

 

[tbrown_01923]

If we've learned anything so far, the Stephens rule is that you send out guys who don't play defense and bring back guys who do.

That has held in every trade. How many more before it becomes a "thing" : )

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I'd also note the 3rd guard is signed to a contract -already- that seems like a fair price for his quality for a number of years. So there's cost certainity involved there too. That's worth -something-.

This part is worth a ton and where the true value comes into play. It is rare to find a productive player who fits what you want to do locked into a long-term reasonable contract.

 

[DGreenwood]

This part is worth a ton and where the true value comes into play. It is rare to find a productive player who fits what you want to do locked into a long-term reasonable contract.

We seem to have a team full of players that fit this description. The top 10 players on the roster are all back next year at reasonable/fair contracts. The year after that is the same except Horford is a free agent and Grant is a RFA (it seems reasonable that they could both still be here). I wonder how rare it is to be able to project that type of continuity on such a good team?

 

[mcpickl]

Have we ever seen McPickl and Danny Ainge together in the same room?

If a team has to win every trade, it's going to miss chances to improve. The Cs got a guy who slots as one of the top 3rd guards in the league for a draft pick that was likely going to be in the 20s, a scratch-off ticket that is unlikely to be in SAS in two years no matter how good he is (poor roster fit) and was included as much for salary as anything else, and The Swap. SAS wasn't going anywhere this season. It's not like they had to make the trade.

Everyone talks about this trade like this and leaves out the exact same thing.

They also gave up Josh Richardson in this trade. He's a good player.

I look at the trade as we had a good sixth man (which I think Richardson was this season), for a better sixth man. It's not like they lengthened their rotation, or filled a glaring hole, they upgraded at their top bench player spot.

I think a first round pick is a fair deal for that upgrade. I also count Romeo as a zero in the deal. I don't think there should be any chance a swap that is so lightly protected should be added into that deal.

Maybe if White had a bargain contract (I think he's somewhere between fairly paid and slightly overpaid), or if Richardson were an upcoming FA (and I think he'd likely be amenable to an extension if you wanted since he's also somewhere between fairly paid and slightly overpaid IMO), then the Celtics would have to add a bit more value to the trade.

I mean, sorry. I just don't think White is such a massive upgrade over Richardson that on top of trading a 1st, I'd have to leave any possibility about giving away another top pick on top of that in a swap. Just too risky for me.

 

[mcpickl]

I want a GM who is confident and not considering it likely at all for there to be a disaster situation where the Celtics, who have two of the game's best young players, are in the lottery in 6 years. Not handcuffing the current team by planning for some insanely unlikely scenario. And I think nearly every GM would give the same amount of weight to a pick swap that far off in the future.

Edit: Like, I can't actually believe how nuts this is. If you worried about these tiny probabilities years off in the future you would never make a deal that you weren't a clear winner of.

I don't think it's handcuffing the team to still have Josh Richardson and a first instead of Derrick White.
I don't think it's an insanely unlikely scenario

Edit: Like, I can't believe how nuts it is to not worry about (not tiny) probabilities years off in the future. It's a big part of a GMs job.

 

[JakeRae]

I don't think it's handcuffing the team to still have Josh Richardson and a first instead of Derrick White.
I don't think it's an insanely unlikely scenario

Edit: Like, I can't believe how nuts it is to not worry about (not tiny) probabilities years off in the future. It's a big part of a GMs job.

Derrick White is a much better player than Josh Richardson though. He’s much closer to Marcus Smart in quality. If you recognize that, it’s a lot easier to understand why he was a really valuable addition to this team and why the price was justified. Derrick White is not another journeyman guard who is fine but at best average. He’s a legitimate starter on a playoff team level player that we have the luxury of using in a bench role.

 

[DavidTai]

Derrick White is a much better player than Josh Richardson though. He’s much closer to Marcus Smart in quality. If you recognize that, it’s a lot easier to understand why he was a really valuable addition to this team and why the price was justified. Derrick White is not another journeyman guard who is fine but at best average. He’s a legitimate starter on a playoff team level player that we have the luxury of using in a bench role.

I'd add, the overall -composition- of the team's bench has changed in a way that a) there's redundancy so that you're covered for almost every position in case of an injury, and b) that same redundancy allows you to play defense -for 48 minutes- because you aren't spending time covering for a clear defensive weakness, like Enes Freedom or Dennis Schroeder.

And hell, the reason White is a better player than Richardson is that, unlike Richardson, White can actually -play- point guard without dominating the ball. Richardson can kind of play point guard, but the ball tends to stick in his hands which makes the Celtics offense more stagnant when he's playing point.

Richardson's skills are distributed in such a way that the offense doesn't keep humming, while White is close enough to Smart that you can keep running the same offense, and maintain continuity, which makes him more valuable to the Celtics.

We talk about availability in terms of how good a player is, and ability, but I'd venture to say another -underrated- aspect of having Theis and White is actually having -continuity- across a full game. You can essentially plug and play among the top 8, and the 9th (Pritchard) can be worked with as long as they don't have to cover for even more 'holes', and maintain that style of play for a whole game.

This is probably even more valuable -when- the opposing team needs to play their best player 40 minutes -and- there's no one he can 'coast' or 'rest' against on the floor.

 

[RetractableRoof]

There's also a component of Langsford's salary here. Is it wrong to think that RL wasn't a zero in the trade but a salary number negative? Part of the draft pick premium might well be paying San Antonio to take the salary for Boston in a luxury tax threshold consideration. I'm not sure, but Stevens did a lot of sending players out to balance things and come out of it relatively balanced wrt the cap, right?

 

[Jimbodandy]

 

[DavidTai]

There's also a component of Langsford's salary here. Is it wrong to think that RL wasn't a zero in the trade but a salary number negative? Part of the draft pick premium might well be paying San Antonio to take the salary for Boston in a luxury tax threshold consideration. I'm not sure, but Stevens did a lot of sending players out to balance things and come out of it relatively balanced wrt the cap, right?

There were three deals, no? Correct me on the order, but:

They sent a second round pick along with Dunn and Bol Bol to get under the cap, then traded for White, and gain some breathing room, -then acquired Theis aftewards and still managed to stay under.
Either he had Theis in mind when he sent out Langford, or that was a heck of a 'just in case' move.

 

[lexrageorge]

I don't think it's handcuffing the team to still have Josh Richardson and a first instead of Derrick White.
I don't think it's an insanely unlikely scenario

Edit: Like, I can't believe how nuts it is to not worry about (not tiny) probabilities years off in the future. It's a big part of a GMs job.

How is it not a tiny probability? It’s been calculated in this thread; it’s quite a small chance that the Celtics are giving up a top pick.

 

[RetractableRoof]

There were three deals, no? Correct me on the order, but:

They sent a second round pick along with Dunn and Bol Bol to get under the cap, then traded for White, and gain some breathing room, -then acquired Theis aftewards and still managed to stay under.
Either he had Theis in mind when he sent out Langford, or that was a heck of a 'just in case' move.

I'm thinking he paid a premium to move RL to keep under the tax as well as keep his options open. I think anything else he might have been angling for didn't work out, and then Theis got done right under the wire.

 

[mcpickl]

How is it not a tiny probability? It’s been calculated in this thread; it’s quite a small chance that the Celtics are giving up a top pick.

Because I disagree with the calculations I suppose

Derrick White is a much better player than Josh Richardson though. He’s much closer to Marcus Smart in quality. If you recognize that, it’s a lot easier to understand why he was a really valuable addition to this team and why the price was justified. Derrick White is not another journeyman guard who is fine but at best average. He’s a legitimate starter on a playoff team level player that we have the luxury of using in a bench role.

I mean, I already said White is better than Richardson, though I don't think he's anywhere close to Smart. Maybe he's at the midpoint between Smart and Richardson or so?

And I agree he's a valuable addition to the team, but is it OK I disagree on the price?

Doesn't everyone a price where they wouldn't do the deal? Mine is just lower than most of yours.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I mean, sorry. I just don't think White is such a massive upgrade over Richardson that on top of trading a 1st, I'd have to leave any possibility about giving away another top pick on top of that in a swap. Just too risky for me.

We disagree on how much better White is than JRich, which is fine. I also think White is a way better fit and he has upside, as opposed to JRich, who isn't shooting the ball any better than he did this year.

I do want to point out a second order effect - that getting White allowed POBOBS to move Schroder. JRich isn't a PG and there's no way POBOBS (IMO) is leaving Cs with Smart and PP as PGs.

And the Cs would have been much worse without Theis when TL was injured.

 

[Smokey Joe]

So Derrick White is a better fit, significantly better ( or incrementally better) and the Celts still stay under the cap. When you enter a championship window, all of these things matter and you overpay to get them right. A fricking pick swap in 2028 is a laughably small price to overpay considering what contortions other teams are going through to compete. The Celtics are a favorite to go to the finals and they have not mortgaged their next 5 1st round draft picks and are not looking at a gigantic cap penalty. They still have assets and can make moves.

so no, I am not terribly concerned about a 2028 pick swap.

 

[lars10]

We disagree on how much better White is than JRich, which is fine. I also think White is a way better fit and he has upside, as opposed to JRich, who isn't shooting the ball any better than he did this year.

I do want to point out a second order effect - that getting White allowed POBOBS to move Schroder. JRich isn't a PG and there's no way POBOBS (IMO) is leaving Cs with Smart and PP as PGs.

And the Cs would have been much worse without Theis when TL was injured.

To me these two trades are like the trades for Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mantkiewitxzdjc. Two very solid players that slid into the team very well.. defensively focused and slightly redundant players that allow for a lot of in game flexibility. You’re able to throw out a lot of different lineups and also keep everyone fresh since you basically have two starting level players on your bench. I also agree with you that White’s energy on the defensive end is a significant upgrade over JRich.. Theis over Kanter as well.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

So Derrick White is a better fit, significantly better ( or incrementally better) and the Celts still stay under the cap. When you enter a championship window, all of these things matter and you overpay to get them right. A fricking pick swap in 2028 is a laughably small price to overpay considering what contortions other teams are going through to compete. The Celtics are a favorite to go to the finals and they have not mortgaged their next 5 1st round draft picks and are not looking at a gigantic cap penalty. They still have assets and can make moves.

so no, I am not terribly concerned about a 2028 pick swap.

The question is was it really necessary to add the swap? It's like when DD would throw in extra pieces, mostly competing against himself.

None of this will matter if the C's win a championship and they have as good a shot as any this year. Probably won't even matter in 2028 but maybe the C's could have had White w/o including the swap.

Would I rather have White right now than JRich? Yes. And I like JRich. But he's not a PG and he's not a high volume shooter from 3. I'm not sure what his role is with GW and PP on the team, really. Is it worth the swap? Probably. If the worse case scenario does happen, people will feel differentily about it but we just watched the huge range of possible outcomes on pick swaps/traded picks. The C's got pretty lucky with the Nets haul. the Memphis/Sac picks were less fun.

 

[Van Everyman]

The question is was it really necessary to add the swap? It's like when DD would throw in extra pieces, mostly competing against himself.

If SA wouldn’t do the deal without it? Yes.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

The question is was it really necessary to add the swap? It's like when DD would throw in extra pieces, mostly competing against himself.

While we will never know for sure, the fact that it's top-1 protected says to me that there were serious negotiations over the swap (I'm sure the Cs wanted more protection) and SAS really wanted the swap. Yeah trading White helped SAS a little this year in terms of player evaluation, but SAS could have tried to move him over the summer too.

My pet theory (without any evidence whatsoever) is that Pop pikes both White and Ime and wanted to move White to BOS as a favor to both of them. I didn't hear anytying about SAS shopping White around before the trade deadline.

 

[Van Everyman]

While we will never know for sure, the fact that it's top-1 protected says to me that there were serious negotiations over the swap (I'm sure the Cs wanted more protection) and SAS really wanted the swap. Yeah trading White helped SAS a little this year in terms of player evaluation, but SAS could have tried to move him over the summer too.

My pet theory (without any evidence whatsoever) is that Pop pikes both White and Ime and wanted to move White to BOS as a favor to both of them. I didn't hear anytying about SAS shopping White around before the trade deadline.

I also think Stevens and Ime coveted White based on what I’ve read. Which makes me think that as solid as he’s been since the deadline outside of his shooting, he’s going to make an even bigger leap next season.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

While we will never know for sure, the fact that it's top-1 protected says to me that there were serious negotiations over the swap (I'm sure the Cs wanted more protection) and SAS really wanted the swap. Yeah trading White helped SAS a little this year in terms of player evaluation, but SAS could have tried to move him over the summer too.

My pet theory (without any evidence whatsoever) is that Pop pikes both White and Ime and wanted to move White to BOS as a favor to both of them. I didn't hear anytying about SAS shopping White around before the trade deadline.

I think it's pretty clear Boston wanted White, anyway. He fits the system/roster well and hopefully shoots better next year. Plus Ime likes to stick to a short rotation so having bench guys who can player starter minutes helps a lot too.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I also think Stevens and Ime coveted White based on what I’ve read. Which makes me think that as solid as he’s been since the deadline outside of his shooting, he’s going to make an even bigger leap next season.

He's going to be 28. I'm not sure he's going to be making any leaps but his shooting should (hopefully) rebound.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

My sense is that all of the Marcus hate and Theis trade hate has migrated over to White (and White trade). Marcus won a lot of his haters over with his play in the secon half, and the Rob injury turned Theis from a bench guy into a playoff starter. Meanwhile, White shot poorly after his arrival and had an up and down series against the Nets and PP had 2 strong playoff games in which he shot well and Brooklyn for some reason didn't hnt him. So, on the theory that haters gonna hate, White is the new target.

 

[JakeRae]

View attachment 51258

Here’s that chart by age, which I think does a better job capturing the substantial difference between the two players’ ability and career trajectories:


It’s also worth noting that DARKO somewhat pessimistic where it comes to Derrick White’s value. RAPTOR has White as a +3.7 player this year largely based on his defense (Richardson is -1.5). White’s last 3 years are in line with that rating while Richardson has been a lot less consistent. LEBRON has him at 0.89 this year but at 2.35 and 1.96 the prior two years. Josh Richardson is -0.45 this year, his best rating in the past three years.

 

[benhogan]

I don't think anyone really hates White?

White has been a +/- per 100 superstar (and probably part of the reason why adv metrics like him so much).

He's posted significantly positive OnCourt and On/Off every season along with a positive BPM every year. Consistently good comes to mind. Smart, efficient, egoless players are exactly what you want around the JAYs.

SSS but his OBPM for the Celtics was his worst ever, so expecting a bounce-back on offense next season at 28 isn't out of order.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/whitede01.html

using JRich (picked up for nothing 6-mths before) + a 2022 #25 pick + the swap + Romeo (salary) to upgrade the top-7 man rotation for the next 4 seasons is a clever use of assets. The swap still leaves open the optionality of using 2023-27 draft capital to upgrade from the ageless Horford & extend the JAYLord contention window.

 

[lovegtm]

Here’s that chart by age, which I think does a better job capturing the substantial difference between the two players’ ability and career trajectories:

View attachment 51268
It’s also worth noting that DARKO somewhat pessimistic where it comes to Derrick White’s value. RAPTOR has White as a +3.7 player this year largely based on his defense (Richardson is -1.5). White’s last 3 years are in line with that rating while Richardson has been a lot less consistent. LEBRON has him at 0.89 this year but at 2.35 and 1.96 the prior two years. Josh Richardson is -0.45 this year, his best rating in the past three years.

To go further with this: when you have an offensive superstar like Tatum and a strong 1B like Jaylen, accumulating adv metric stars who put up meh counting stats is exactly what you want to be doing.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I don't think anyone really hates White?

White has been a +/- per 100 superstar (and probably part of the reason why adv metrics like him so much).

He's posted significantly positive OnCourt and On/Off every season along with a positive BPM every year. Consistently good comes to mind. Smart, efficient, egoless players are exactly what you want around the JAYs.

SSS but his OBPM for the Celtics was his worst ever, so expecting a bounce-back on offense next season at 28 isn't out of order.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/whitede01.html

using JRich (picked up for nothing 6-mths before) + a 2022 #25 pick + the swap + Romeo (salary) to upgrade the top-7 man rotation for the next 4 seasons is a clever use of assets. The swap still leaves open the optionality of using 2023-27 draft capital to upgrade from the ageless Horford & extend the JAYLord contention window.

Yeah, one poster is really opposed to the deal and I'm like "meh' about it. Everyone else seems to fall on the side of liking the deal.

Of course you said White and not the deal, which is also true. I don't see many people complaining about the actual player.

 

[lovegtm]

The pick swap looks a lot better when you see White seamlessly slide in with Smart out.

 

[128]

The pick swap looks a lot better when you see White seamlessly slide in with Smart out.

It would look even better if White could occasionally make a shot. He was always inconsistent from 3-point range, but he showed off a killer floater game when he joined the C's, and that seems to have disappeared.

 

[lovegtm]

It would look even better if White could occasionally make a shot. He was always inconsistent from 3-point range, but he showed off a killer floater game when he joined the C's, and that seems to have disappeared.

Yeah, he's seemed weirdly uncomfortable on offense, and I wonder whether it will take an offseason to fix.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

It would look even better if White could occasionally make a shot. He was always inconsistent from 3-point range, but he showed off a killer floater game when he joined the C's, and that seems to have disappeared.

True, but worth nothing that he has a long history of being a better offensive player and better shooter than this.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

It would look even better if White could occasionally make a shot. He was always inconsistent from 3-point range, but he showed off a killer floater game when he joined the C's, and that seems to have disappeared.

His confidence appears to be completely shot and he looks uncomfortable balancing how much he defers to Tatum/JB. This is a kid who has a 36-point night and a 21 FGA game on his playoff resume.

 

[tims4wins]

Ironically White was 2-3 from 3 in game 1, his only game this postseason with 2+ makes. Overall this postseason he is 3-18 from 3; aside from game 1, he is 1-15. He has not hit a 3 in 4 of the 6 games (0-11 in those games).

 

[Auger34]

His confidence appears to be completely shot and he looks uncomfortable balancing how much he defers to Tatum/JB. This is a kid who has a 36-point night and a 21 FGA game on his playoff resume.

I don’t see the balancing thing as much as I see someone in his own head about being able to make a shot. He also seems like hes not quite sure when to push it or when to slow down (this is something he didn’t seem to have a problem with at all in the regular season, so I think part of it is the lack of confidence from shooting so poorly)

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I don’t see the balancing thing as much as I see someone in his own head about being able to make a shot. He also seems like hes not quite sure when to push it or when to slow down (this is something he didn’t seem to have a problem with at all in the regular season, so I think part of it is the lack of confidence from shooting so poorly)

That’s kinda what I’m referring to when speaking of balancing aggressiveness with deferment. Poor shooting and lack of confidence go hand in hand…..one doesn’t really cause the other.

He’s gone from 14.5 FGA/36 with the Spurs over the last two seasons there to 11.6 FGA/36 in reg season here……to now 10.0 FGA/36 in this years playoffs while clearly showing his tentativeness.

 

[JakeRae]

It would look even better if White could occasionally make a shot. He was always inconsistent from 3-point range, but he showed off a killer floater game when he joined the C's, and that seems to have disappeared.

Isn’t that just part of seamlessly replacing Smart?

 

[128]

Isn’t that just part of seamlessly replacing Smart?

Smart has never looked hesitant, for better or worse.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Isn’t that just part of seamlessly replacing Smart?

"No, no, no...YES!" >>> "No, no, no...NO!"

 

[dhellers]

Ironically White was 2-3 from 3 in game 1, his only game this postseason with 2+ makes. Overall this postseason he is 3-18 from 3; aside from game 1, he is 1-15. He has not hit a 3 in 4 of the 6 games (0-11 in those games).

The GW experience suggest this is not necesssrily a permanent feature.

 

[JM3]

We're still complaining about the pick swap?

If people think it's actually random which team will be better in '28, I'll happily bet the Celtics side of that coin flip at even $.

The Celtics have missed the playoffs once in the past 15 years (the Marcus Smart draft, 6th pick) & have their young core all locked up for a while.

The last time the Celtics own pick was in the top 4 was 1997 (Billups, 3rd)...25 years ago.

Every year there are so many teams tanking that a team that's actually trying is super unlikely to get a top 5 pick.

The Spurs are not a destination city, refuse to tank, have an ok but not special young core, & Pop won't be around forever.

These are all variables that should be factored in when properly valuing the downside risk of the swap.

All that being said, if you're not into DWhite - any % risk is too high of a risk. I think he's alleviated a lot of those concerns, though.

 

[lovegtm]

His confidence appears to be completely shot and he looks uncomfortable balancing how much he defers to Tatum/JB. This is a kid who has a 36-point night and a 21 FGA game on his playoff resume.

Agree strongly wrt his being uncomfortable knowing how much to defer to the Jays. That's why I think this might not get fixed until he has a full offseason to figure it out.

Still an extremely useful player: imagine the rotations right now if he weren't here and Smart were out.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

View: https://twitter.com/kirkgoldsberry/status/1523847497684336641?s=20&t=4I06Y8NU7mKJcWMHIoXqhA

Kirk Goldsberry: Derrick White held the Bucks to 0-for-12 shooting as a primary defender tonight. @ESPNStatsInfo

White has been essential in the Bucks series.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

From StatMuse. What an acquisition.

Derrick White defending Lowry/Strus/Oladipo/Robinson:
— 188 possessions
— 9 points
— 3-28 FG (11%)
— 1-14 3P (7%)
— 7 turnovers
— 6 blocked shots
— 0 shooting fouls

StatMuse on Twitter: "Derrick White defending Lowry/Strus/Oladipo/Robinson: — 188 possessions — 9 points — 3-28 FG (11%) — 1-14 3P (7%) — 7 turnovers — 6 blocked shots — 0 shooting fouls https://t.co/2EAncyZIoo" / Twitter

 

[chilidawg]

He'll see a lot of action chasing Curry. Seems like he's as good a fit for that matchup as you'd find, relentless motor and really good defensive instincts.