Celebrating What Is

BaseballJones

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I think if you make it to or win the Super Bowl, you deserve it. I just don't think you can "luck" yourself that far. It's easy to pick a play like the Dee Ford play and say they were "lucky", but doing so usually ignores an equal and opposite play that gets forgotten. Remember Kelce fumbling and Hightower recovering, which set NE up deep in KC territory with about 3 minutes remaining? Remembering how that game went down, I think it was KC who was lucky to be in it rather than the other way around.

In the end, unless you're an all-time great team you're going to play some close games in the playoffs that could go either way, and even being an all-time great team is no guarantee as we all painfully know. The intestinal fortitude of the Patriots almost always ensured that any loss they suffered would be close and thus gut-wrenching.

To circle back to Celebrating What Is, that's one of the underrated aspects of that 20 year run. The lack of egg-laying that happened in the playoffs. They might lose, but they never let themselves get obliterated and due to their ability to come back an out-of-reach playoff game before the late 4th quarter was a rare sight. Montana/Walsh lost 49-3. Manning/Dungy lost 41-0. Rodgers lost 44-21. Mahomes/Reid just lost 31-9. Elway lost 42-10 and 55-10. Favre lost 35-9 and 45-17. Marino lost 38-3 and 62-7. Kelly/Levy lost 52-17. Simms lost 44-3.

Brady & BB's worst playoff loss, despite playing in way more games than any of these guyes? 33-14, the only playoff L of the era that was by more than two scores. Three other L's were two score losses, and the other seven L's were one score games. Those are always going to sting a bit more.
The TB/BB playoff losses and the pain on a "sting-meter" (0 being painless, 10 being absolute long lasting agony):

1/14/06 - Loss to Denver in the divisional round, 27-13 - 8 sting - until that point, TB hadn't lost a playoff game and he seemed invincible in the playoffs. So much winning had us set up for an almost sense of destiny. Feeling screwed on the Watson/Champ play made it hard. Losing to Jake Plummer of all people...that was tough. First chink in the armor.

1/21/06 - Loss to Indy in the AFCCG, 38-34 - 9.5 sting - Losing to Peyton was really difficult after all that success against him. Losing after leading 21-6, getting hosed on a few key plays...man that was painful. Especially knowing that they'd have rolled in the Super Bowl.

2/3/08 - Loss to the NY Giants in the Super Bowl, 17-14 - 10 sting - losing a perfect season, in the way they did, just absolutely brutal in every way. Obviously this is the one game I'd always wish they'd have back.

1/10/10 - Loss to Baltimore in the WC round, 33-14 - 6.5 sting - That team was in rough shape, losing Welker at the end of the year was a death-knell for that squad. It didn't sting so much as was disappointing. Nobody likes getting their lunch handed to them like that.

1/16/11 - Loss to the NY Jets in the divisional round, 28-21 - 8 sting - This was a team that they had just manhandled a few weeks before. Plus it was Rex Ryan and the frigging Jets of all people. An absolutely baffling and inexplicable loss. And at this point, it felt like like NE would never reach the top again.

2/5/12 - Loss to the NY Giants in the Super Bowl, 21-17 - 9 sting - A chance for revenge, again losing in difficult fashion to an inferior team. Gronk hobbled, the OL a mess, ugh. Just not fun.

1/20/13 - Loss to Baltimore in the AFCCG, 28-13 - 6 sting - Another chance for revenge gone by the wayside. Another ass-kicking at the hands of the now-hated Ravens. What was tough about this one was that NE's offense had been averaging more than 38 points a game over their last 10 games, and laid an absolute egg in this one.

1/19/14 - Loss to Denver in the AFCCG, 26-16 - 7 sting - Got manhandled by Denver and Peyton Manning. Not really that competitive in the game, and the score was closer than the game really was. NE was down 23-3 early in the fourth quarter. These Pats were getting crushed by Seattle anyway if they got by Denver.

1/24/16 - Loss to Denver in the AFCCG, 20-18 - 9 sting - Another revenge opportunity lost. Brady got pummeled all game long. What's hard about this one is the way they ended the regular season, forfeiting home field advantage in the dumbest of ways, and they would likely have won the SB that year. But man, that team...what a bunch of warriors to nearly pull that game out at the end.

2/4/18 - Loss to Philadelphia in the Super Bowl, 41-33 - 9 sting - Losing in the SB, losing a chance for a repeat, to a definitely inferior team riding the arm of a guy with a horseshoe up his butt, plus the refs changing the rules on a catch with nobody knowing. Tough loss, especially to see Brady go OFF in that one only to come up short.

1/4/20 - Loss to Tennessee in the WC round, 20-14 - 3 sting - Easiest loss to absorb for me. We all knew the Pats were pretty bad at that point and were going nowhere. The bad part was the pick-six at the end, Brady's last pass attempt as a Patriot. Not the way any of us wanted to see him go out.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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I didn't think the Philly loss stung that bad, honestly. Obviously losing a Super Bowl sucks, but they already had 5 rings at that point and we're in piling on phase. Plus, I felt like Philly just played a balls out game, going for it on 4th down several times, trick plays, etc. They knew they had to take a ton of chances, did so, and converted. Good for them.

For me it just doesn't rank anywhere near some of those other games.
 

BigSoxFan

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I didn't think the Philly loss stung that bad, honestly. Obviously losing a Super Bowl sucks, but they already had 5 rings at that point and we're in piling on phase. Plus, I felt like Philly just played a balls out game, going for it on 4th down several times, trick plays, etc. They knew they had to take a ton of chances, did so, and converted. Good for them.

For me it just doesn't rank anywhere near some of those other games.
Depends on how you look at it. Brady threw for 500+ yards and still took an L. That was an all-time performance that is more or less getting lost in the annals of history.

It also prevented Brady’s 2nd “3 out of 4”. It only stings a little less because the psycho went right back and won it the next year.

I agree that it just felt “wrong” the entire game. We were chasing our tails the entire game until the Gronk TD. Even after that TD, I never felt like the Pats would win. They just couldn’t ever get a stop when it mattered.
 

BaseballJones

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I didn't think the Philly loss stung that bad, honestly. Obviously losing a Super Bowl sucks, but they already had 5 rings at that point and we're in piling on phase. Plus, I felt like Philly just played a balls out game, going for it on 4th down several times, trick plays, etc. They knew they had to take a ton of chances, did so, and converted. Good for them.

For me it just doesn't rank anywhere near some of those other games.
I understand what you're saying. I think what killed me was that Brady had the greatest game ever and still lost. Plus the refs literally changed the rules on a catch and that burned New England, so that's incredibly frustrating.
 

Van Everyman

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Yeah but that goes with the territory of being the hated best.

I get what @Leather is saying now, he’s framing it based on how it felt **at the time**. Yes, I’m sure I’ve blocked some of the emotions of those years out, much like I don’t really remember the pre-2004 Red Sox years anymore (which is a great thing). And for sure the Seattle Super Bowl was absolutely cathartic.

Even still, I’m not sure I felt that losses like the one to the NYJ in 2010 or the Ravens two years later were some indicator that they’d never reach the mountaintop again. The Pats were a team that was constantly in the playoffs at that point. Notwithstanding all the whining on this board that Jim Nantz was anti-Pats, post-2007 Brady was widely viewed as Peyton’s peer. And I never felt the Ravens or Broncos had our number so much as it was a back and forth rivalry. Which it was.

Beyond that tho, there just wasn’t a sense that the window was closing during that era. It was frustrating but never really crushing because there was always a sense that no matter how bad the loss was Tom and Bill would bring it back for a revenge tour the next season. Celebrating what is and all.
 

tims4wins

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It's interesting reading through your list @BaseballJones because I feel a lot differently about a few of those games:

- 2005 @ Denver: this Pats team just wasn't all that good. It stung a bit because it was the first playoff loss, but personally I'd rank it as more like a 5 or 6 on the sting meter
- 2009 vs. Baltimore: semantics, but I'd place this one at like a 4. It sucked being the first home playoff loss of Brady's career but that team wasn't going anywhere
- 2010 vs. Jets: I know we've talked about this team a lot before, but this one completely, absolutely sucked. I thought this team had a true chance, and they laid an egg. It was really painful, at least a 9, maybe a 9.5. Extra points because Rex and the Jets
- 2012 vs. Baltimore: losing the AFCCG at home after being gifted the opportunity has to be at least an 8. Manning had lost and it was a chance to rub it in their faces. Pats played ok in the first half, blew some chances, then got their doors blown off in the second half. In retrospect it's not as painful, but in the moment, man, this one sucked
 

BaseballJones

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I think you're probably right about the Jets loss, @tims4wins. That was an awesome team that had blown NY's doors off just a few weeks before. The most inexplicable loss, IMO, of the entire dynasty. Second is the Miami regular season loss where they decided to run Stephen Jackson into the line a hundred times and didn't even seem to be trying to win the game - which cost HFA and ultimately led to a loss in Denver. But that Jets loss..just unfathomable.
 

Leather

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Yeah after the 2008 SB loss and the 2007 AFC loss to the colts, the 2011 Jets game sucked the hardest. That was right in the middle of the Jets (primarily Rex) and their fans developing a cocky attitude under the guise that they were in ascendency and the Pats were on the slow decline. They had made the AFC Title
Game the year before and the Pats crushed them late in the season. It was also a year where Brady was otherworldly in terms of not giving up interceptions, and the team had its two tight end attack rolling with fun supporting guys like Danny Woodhead. The team was good, it was likeable. It *felt* like a new beginning, and it was supposed to be a laugher.

Instead, it’s keystone cops where the Jets don’t do anything particularly notable except stand where they’re supposed to while Brady throws a red zone int for the first time in forever, Bennett drops a TD pass, and Eugene Chung botches a punt and loses like 20 yards in the most pathetic fake attempt ever. Look up “coming out flat” in the sports encyclopedia and that game should be listed as example A. They were a 14-2 team going up against a 11-5 team at home. What a bummer that was.

And the field was weak as hell that year. The colts had been knocked out and Pittsburgh knocked off Baltimore. Should have been a layup.

Edit: oh God, that prick Tomlinson was on that team too. Didn’t he talk smack after, like a nobody wanted to play for BB anymore or something?

The Patriots had more fearsome rivals during their runs (Colts, Ravens, Broncos, mostly) but none were more irritating and full of themselves as those 2009-2011 Jets teams. Just a totally pointless fly in the ointment.
 
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johnmd20

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The TB/BB playoff losses and the pain on a "sting-meter" (0 being painless, 10 being absolute long lasting agony):

1/14/06 - Loss to Denver in the divisional round, 27-13 - 8 sting - until that point, TB hadn't lost a playoff game and he seemed invincible in the playoffs. So much winning had us set up for an almost sense of destiny. Feeling screwed on the Watson/Champ play made it hard. Losing to Jake Plummer of all people...that was tough. First chink in the armor.

1/21/06 - Loss to Indy in the AFCCG, 38-34 - 9.5 sting - Losing to Peyton was really difficult after all that success against him. Losing after leading 21-6, getting hosed on a few key plays...man that was painful. Especially knowing that they'd have rolled in the Super Bowl.

2/3/08 - Loss to the NY Giants in the Super Bowl, 17-14 - 10 sting - losing a perfect season, in the way they did, just absolutely brutal in every way. Obviously this is the one game I'd always wish they'd have back.

1/10/10 - Loss to Baltimore in the WC round, 33-14 - 6.5 sting - That team was in rough shape, losing Welker at the end of the year was a death-knell for that squad. It didn't sting so much as was disappointing. Nobody likes getting their lunch handed to them like that.

1/16/11 - Loss to the NY Jets in the divisional round, 28-21 - 8 sting - This was a team that they had just manhandled a few weeks before. Plus it was Rex Ryan and the frigging Jets of all people. An absolutely baffling and inexplicable loss. And at this point, it felt like like NE would never reach the top again.

2/5/12 - Loss to the NY Giants in the Super Bowl, 21-17 - 9 sting - A chance for revenge, again losing in difficult fashion to an inferior team. Gronk hobbled, the OL a mess, ugh. Just not fun.

1/20/13 - Loss to Baltimore in the AFCCG, 28-13 - 6 sting - Another chance for revenge gone by the wayside. Another ass-kicking at the hands of the now-hated Ravens. What was tough about this one was that NE's offense had been averaging more than 38 points a game over their last 10 games, and laid an absolute egg in this one.

1/19/14 - Loss to Denver in the AFCCG, 26-16 - 7 sting - Got manhandled by Denver and Peyton Manning. Not really that competitive in the game, and the score was closer than the game really was. NE was down 23-3 early in the fourth quarter. These Pats were getting crushed by Seattle anyway if they got by Denver.

1/24/16 - Loss to Denver in the AFCCG, 20-18 - 9 sting - Another revenge opportunity lost. Brady got pummeled all game long. What's hard about this one is the way they ended the regular season, forfeiting home field advantage in the dumbest of ways, and they would likely have won the SB that year. But man, that team...what a bunch of warriors to nearly pull that game out at the end.

2/4/18 - Loss to Philadelphia in the Super Bowl, 41-33 - 9 sting - Losing in the SB, losing a chance for a repeat, to a definitely inferior team riding the arm of a guy with a horseshoe up his butt, plus the refs changing the rules on a catch with nobody knowing. Tough loss, especially to see Brady go OFF in that one only to come up short.

1/4/20 - Loss to Tennessee in the WC round, 20-14 - 3 sting - Easiest loss to absorb for me. We all knew the Pats were pretty bad at that point and were going nowhere. The bad part was the pick-six at the end, Brady's last pass attempt as a Patriot. Not the way any of us wanted to see him go out.
This is great work and I appreciate the effort. But your sting ratings are too high for some of these games. 2006 Denver loss was a 5 at best, Baltimore in the WC is a 1 sting, because that game was over in the first quarter, 2014 loss to Denver also isn't a hard sting. They got killed. How is that a 7? Tennessee loss is a negative 40 sting. (so should be a 1) That had no sting at all, that team didn't have a chance, like Pittsburgh this year.

Ironically, the 2013 Baltimore loss is not enough sting. Blew a halftime lead and that team could have won the SB.
 

BigSoxFan

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This is great work and I appreciate the effort. But your sting ratings are too high for some of these games. 2006 Denver loss was a 5 at best, Baltimore in the WC is a 1 sting, because that game was over in the first quarter, 2014 loss to Denver also isn't a hard sting. They got killed. How is that a 7? Tennessee loss is a negative 40 sting. (so should be a 1) That had no sting at all, that team didn't have a chance, like Pittsburgh this year.

Ironically, the 2013 Baltimore loss is not enough sting. Blew a halftime lead and that team could have won the SB.
Yeah, I would put the 2013 AFCCG as like a 1 sting. Brady’s top 4 pass catchers in that game were a just emerging Jules, Aaron Dobson, Austin Collie, and Hooman. Always sucks to lose to Denver/Manning but that team was incredibly outgunned and then we all got to laugh at the Broncos 2 weeks later as they got obliterated by Seattle.

2015 AFCCG was much tougher because of the Gost missed XP, Gronk’s heroics, and the fact that we puked all over ourselves down the stretch to give Denver home field and let Peyton win that 2nd title. Best part of all of these is that the team redeemed itself the following year 3 times, which is just hilarious to me.
 

johnmd20

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2015 AFCCG was much tougher because of the Gost missed XP, Gronk’s heroics, and the fact that we puked all over ourselves down the stretch to give Denver home field and let Peyton win that 2nd title. Best part of all of these is that the team redeemed itself the following year 3 times, which is just hilarious to me.
It is incredible that Peyton's both SB wins could have just as easily been Pats' SB wins. One play either way and Peyton never wins the big one. Obviously, one play either way applies to almost every Pats SB win and loss since 2001.
 

BaseballJones

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This is great work and I appreciate the effort. But your sting ratings are too high for some of these games. 2006 Denver loss was a 5 at best, Baltimore in the WC is a 1 sting, because that game was over in the first quarter, 2014 loss to Denver also isn't a hard sting. They got killed. How is that a 7? Tennessee loss is a negative 40 sting. (so should be a 1) That had no sting at all, that team didn't have a chance, like Pittsburgh this year.

Ironically, the 2013 Baltimore loss is not enough sting. Blew a halftime lead and that team could have won the SB.
LOL - I mean, am I not allowed to feel differently than you do about these things?
 

BigSoxFan

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It is incredible that Peyton's both SB wins could have just as easily been Pats' SB wins. One play either way and Peyton never wins the big one. Obviously, one play either way applies to almost every Pats SB win and loss since 2001.
Yup. I’ve long wondered what an alternate universe where the Pats don’t blow the 21-3 AFCCG lead looks like. Do Welker/Moss happen that offseason? Does Peyton eventually win one in that 2007-2011 window or is he Marino’d?
 

Mystic Merlin

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Yup. I’ve long wondered what an alternate universe where the Pats don’t blow the 21-3 AFCCG lead looks like. Do Welker/Moss happen that offseason? Does Peyton eventually win one in that 2007-2011 window or is he Marino’d?
I think they still pursue Welker/Moss. My answer for anyone but Bill picking talent would be less certain, but their receivers weren’t good and needed an upgrade no matter what happened in the Indy game, and two big talents became available in that offseason. Bill is gonna go for those players at their acquisition costs, period.

I think Peyton wins in Denver, still, assuming we are ignoring a genuine butterfly effect paradox in this hypo, which we really have to for the discussion to go anywhere.

I don’t see a reason to think Indy wins in 07-08-09-10 if Indy loses in 06, unless you stipulate that a more desperate team would be harder to beat? I don’t see what personnel decisions would have been made differently.
 

BaseballJones

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Which teams have felt the most pain at the hands of Brady? We could say Buffalo maybe, because Brady's record against them is just insane. But very few of those games were the kind of games that actually meant anything, since Buffalo generally was pretty bad during Brady's career.

Here are the contenders, IMO:

- Bills: Because Brady is 32-3 against them all-time. I know I just said that almost none of those were in really meaningful situations, but the sheer dominance is hard to overlook. Basically, he was impossible for Buffalo to beat. And they played a TON so he hurt them year in and year out.

- Falcons: Brady is 9-0 lifetime against the Falcons, including one absolute crushing victory that had to be the worst experience for Falcons fans of all time in the Super Bowl.

- Chargers: Brady is 10-2 lifetime against them, including 3-0 in the playoffs. Brady knocked them out in 2006 when SD (at the time) had maybe the best team in the NFL.

- Steelers: Brady is 12-3 lifetime against them, including taking them out in THREE AFC Championship games, two of which were in Pittsburgh. Talk about ripping the heart out of a franchise. He cost them three Super Bowl appearances.

- Rams: He's 5-2 against them lifetime, including two wins in Super Bowls when the Rams absolutely thought they were the better team. So not many games, but man those two Super Bowl games just have to be killer.

- Chiefs: He's "only" 8-5 lifetime against them, including a few losses that had to make Chiefs fans feel great. But he knocked them out of the playoffs three times (Jan 2016, divisional round, Jan 2019, AFCCG in KC, and Feb 2021, Super Bowl) - the last two of those were absolutely *crushing* defeats for KC. Without Brady, KC might be looking at three straight Lombardis at this point.

- Jaguars: Brady is 8-1 lifetime against them, including three playoff wins (28-3 in 2006, 31-20 in 2008, and 24-20 in 2018 in the AFCCG).

- Colts: Brady is 15-4 lifetime, and 3-1 in the playoffs, twice beating Peyton at the peak of Manning's powers. But Peyton got him in the AFCCG and went on to win the Super Bowl, so that's gotta count for a lot for them.

I'd add the Jets in there but even though Brady's been dominant over them (30-8 lifetime), the Jets have that one divisional round win in Foxboro that probably is worth more to Jets' fans than all the losses combined.

So of this list...I feel like the answer is Pittsburgh, right? Seems like every time he plays a big game against them, he eviscerates them. He's beaten them SO many times in SO many big games. And Pittsburgh has six Lombardis, so Brady getting six with New England, and then a seventh this year, has to *really* sting them. Plus, Pittsburgh feels a sense of entitlement, like they're just automatically the gold standard franchise in the NFL. So that's my pick.
 
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cutman1000

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The Jets loss bothers me the most (besides 2007). I don’t think I’ve ever told this story, so here goes.

I was in NYC at the time with my girlfriend from New Zealand. We had just graduated from vet school and were enjoying time together before she started an internship and I started a new job. My best friend from undergrad was living in NYC and arranged for us to watch the game with some of his friends at a nice bar in Manhattan. Needless to say, it was a very pro-Jets crowd. A bunch of strangers rubbed it in my face all game - not fun.

After the game we walked to Times Square to catch a movie. Girlfriend (who didn’t understand how sad I was since she didn’t understand football) picks out a Nicole Kidman movie about parents who lost a child (just looked it up - it was called Rabbit Hole). It was depressing as hell and made a shitty night even shittier.

The next morning we were invited to a fancy club to have brunch with some family friends. I had to scramble to find a coat and tie to wear (met my cousin on the subway) then rush to the club. When I got there, our friend was talking to someone I didn’t know about the Pats/Jets game from the night before. The random dude was pumped, so I deliberately avoided him so I didn’t have to pretend to be nice to a Jets fan. When he finally left I casually joked with our host that the guy must have been a Jets fan, and he responded “well he should be, he’s the owner.” Yep, it was Woody Johnson and he ended up sitting at the table next to us.

To top it off, my girlfriend dumped me at the end of the trip. Fuck that Jets loss.
 

Caspir

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So of this list...I feel like the answer is Pittsburgh, right? Seems like every time he plays a big game against them, he eviscerates them. He's beaten them SO many times in SO many big games. And Pittsburgh has six Lombardis, so Brady getting six with New England, and then a seventh this year, has to *really* sting them. Plus, Pittsburgh feels a sense of entitlement, like they're just automatically the gold standard franchise in the NFL. So that's my pick.
It’s Pittsburgh, not only because of the head to head record and taking them out in three Conference Championships, but also because he is the reason they’re no longer the only team with six (a HUGE point of pride for Steelers fans) and he also has more championships than their entire organization (and everyone else but, this is Pittsburgh centric). Steeler fans loathe him in a way I have not seen in other cities I’ve visited. It’s been great having their “only team w six!” bs crash and burn all because of Brady.

They would have definitely won at least one of those Super Bowls.
 
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BigSoxFan

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It’s Pittsburgh, not only because of the head to head record and taking them out in there Conference Championships, but also because he is the reason they’re no longer the only team with six (a HUGE point of pride for Steelers fans) but he also has more championships than their entire organization (and everyone else but, this is Pittsburgh centric). Steeler fans loathe him in a way I have not seen in other cities I’ve visited. It’s been great having their “only team w six!” bs crash and burn all because of Brady.

They would have definitely won at least one of those Super Bowls.
Pittsburgh and Indy are definitely close for me. I give the edge to Pittsburgh because they have 7 or 8 rings without Brady and Ben would have 3 or 4. Both Ben and Tomlin/Cowher had great careers but Brady basically knocked them down a peg.

Indy is a tougher case. Brady obviously blocked them in 2003 and 2004. But not sure they get by Steelers in 2004 anyways. They almost surely beat the Panthers though in 2003. I think the biggest impact is that Peyton almost certainly has a lot of support for GOAT without Brady.

A late challenger is KC. Brady basically took out a 3 peat. We’ll see how Mahomes does in the coming years but if he finishes with “only” 1 or 2 rings, then Brady probably had a direct impact on his GOAT candidacy as well.
 

Euclis20

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This is great work and I appreciate the effort. But your sting ratings are too high for some of these games. 2006 Denver loss was a 5 at best, Baltimore in the WC is a 1 sting, because that game was over in the first quarter, 2014 loss to Denver also isn't a hard sting. They got killed. How is that a 7? Tennessee loss is a negative 40 sting. (so should be a 1) That had no sting at all, that team didn't have a chance, like Pittsburgh this year.

Ironically, the 2013 Baltimore loss is not enough sting. Blew a halftime lead and that team could have won the SB.
I feel like you're looking at some of these losses in a vacuum, especially the 2014 lost to Denver. Sure, the Pats weren't super competitive in that game, but it had been nearly 10 years since their last Super Bowl, during which time they had come as any team in history outside of the Bills (3 AFC title losses, 2 Super Bowl losses) without winning it all. With the benefit of hindsight it's easy to shrug off some of these games, but at the time that 2014 game for the Pats seemed like further evidence that the best days of the dynasty were far behind us.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Pittsburgh and Indy are definitely close for me. I give the edge to Pittsburgh because they have 7 or 8 rings without Brady and Ben would have 3 or 4. Both Ben and Tomlin/Cowher had great careers but Brady basically knocked them down a peg.

Indy is a tougher case. Brady obviously blocked them in 2003 and 2004. But not sure they get by Steelers in 2004 anyways. They almost surely beat the Panthers though in 2003. I think the biggest impact is that Peyton almost certainly has a lot of support for GOAT without Brady.

A late challenger is KC. Brady basically took out a 3 peat. We’ll see how Mahomes does in the coming years but if he finishes with “only” 1 or 2 rings, then Brady probably had a direct impact on his GOAT candidacy as well.
I'm sure it's been noted (but if it hasn't) TB stopped 3 teams from repeating as SB Champs and having their team being in such rarified air.
 

BaseballJones

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Huh, I always associated the Rams as trying to repeat.

I guess I always remember a Ram saying "Tonight a dynasty is born" before the game.
That's a correct memory (the quote was by Ricky Proehl)*. But it would have been two titles in three years for the Rams, not back-to-back.

*Proehl has the amazing distinction of scoring very late in Super Bowl games against the Pats to tie the score, right before New England marched down for the SB-winning field goals.
 

Bowser

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That's a correct memory (the quote was by Ricky Proehl)*. But it would have been two titles in three years for the Rams, not back-to-back.

*Proehl has the amazing distinction of scoring very late in Super Bowl games against the Pats to tie the score, right before New England marched down for the SB-winning field goals.
And Proehl's kid, Austin, was on the Rams' practice squad when the Pats beat the Rams in Super Bowl LIII.
 

dynomite

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That's a correct memory (the quote was by Ricky Proehl)*. But it would have been two titles in three years for the Rams, not back-to-back.

*Proehl has the amazing distinction of scoring very late in Super Bowl games against the Pats to tie the score, right before New England marched down for the SB-winning field goals.
Yes, the 2000 Rams actually probably had the best offense of the Greatest Show on Turf era (they scored more than the '99 and '01 teams) and started 6-0, but then a snap from their backup Center broke one of Kurt Warner's fingers. He missed a month+ and wasn't right when he came back, eventually losing in the Wild Card round. Much like the Legion of Boom Seahawks, it's a good illustration of how hard it is to establish a dynasty, and how much luck and a few inches plays a role.
 

johnmd20

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I mean most of those headlines were not incorrect..he was an average to above-average QB for the year on a stacked team. If he was truly still a top-tier QB he doesn't leave the NEP.
Brady was 3rd in yards, 3rd in passing TDs, and 9th in overall QB rating.

In what world is that average or even just "above" average?
 

Silverdude2167

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Brady was 3rd in yards, 3rd in passing TDs, and 9th in overall QB rating.

In what world is that average or even just "above" average?
Jameis Winston 2019 ranks in yards 1st, TDs 2nd, QB rating ... 26th... (So many INT's).

So yeah I would not use stats surrounded by an all-pro cast to say he was more than above average...he was 9th in QB rating with that cast which would place him solidly in above average. He is the same distance from 11th as he is from 8th (the great Kirk Cousins) and only 7.3 points higher than 15th in QB rating again with an all-world cast.

TB might not win the SB without Brady, but Brady doesn't win the SB without TB. He basically tried to give the season away to GB in the second half.
 

johnmd20

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Jameis Winston 2019 ranks in yards 1st, TDs 2nd, QB rating ... 26th... (So many INT's).

So yeah I would not use stats surrounded by an all-pro cast to say he was more than above average...he was 9th in QB rating with that cast which would place him solidly in above average. He is the same distance from 11th as he is from 8th (the great Kirk Cousins) and only 7.3 points higher than 15th in QB rating again with an all-world cast.

TB might not win the SB without Brady, but Brady doesn't win the SB without TB. He basically tried to give the season away to GB in the second half.
Well, Brees did give the season away to TB. Rodgers actually did, too. Come to that, so did Mahomes. So what Brady almost did was actually done by others. Point, Tom Brady.

I will note that being 9th in QB rating is significantly higher than being 26th, so your Jameis comparison doesn't seem to be adding up. Further, TB didn't have a RB for almost the entire season, until Fournette turned it on in the end. Ronald Jones was nicked up all year. And Godwin and Evans were hurt basically the entire season, too. And it took Gronk 9 games to get into playing shape.

Tampa's offense wasn't "stacked". Their defensive line was.
 

TheMoralBully

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Tampa was 3rd in DVOA with Brady, 20th under Jameis. Completing 5% more of your passes and throwing 19 less INTs in a pretty high risk offense is going to make things a lot better. Brady's play is clearly diminished at 43, but I actually think his season is getting underrated by some. First year with team with a new, radically different offense, and while very talented, Godwin missed significant time and Evans was hampered for half the season. DVOA has him #3, football focus #7, QB rating #9; I think top 10 easily with a lot more variance than usual for him. Some days he was the GOAT, other days he was decidedly average, but I think the upside and the playoff run makes him more valuable than 90% of QBs still.
 

rodderick

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Jameis Winston 2019 ranks in yards 1st, TDs 2nd, QB rating ... 26th... (So many INT's).

So yeah I would not use stats surrounded by an all-pro cast to say he was more than above average...he was 9th in QB rating with that cast which would place him solidly in above average. He is the same distance from 11th as he is from 8th (the great Kirk Cousins) and only 7.3 points higher than 15th in QB rating again with an all-world cast.

TB might not win the SB without Brady, but Brady doesn't win the SB without TB. He basically tried to give the season away to GB in the second half.
Brady was the 2nd ranked QB by PFF, 5th in EPA/Play, 3rd in DYAR, 4th in DVOA, led all QBs in playoff EPA/Play and had a higher EPA/Play than the opposing QB in every single playoff game (yes, including the one in which he threw 3 picks in the second half). There's no reason to use passer rating to judge QB play in 2021, year of our Lord. There were only 2 QBs who had a decidedly better season (Rodgers and Mahomes) and another one I also think performed at a marginally higher level (Allen). He was as good as anyone else this year.
 

BaseballJones

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Anyone questioning the quality of talent around Brady this year needs to have his or her head examined. It was spectacular. It wasn't healthy or all present all season, but when it was crunch time, it was all there.

I mean, the Patriots have some nice offensive talent, namely on the OL and at the RB spot. But in virtually every spot, you'd rather have the Tampa player.

QB - Brady >>>>>>> Newton
RB - Jones => Harris (it's close...I might take Harris but others would take Jones)
RB - Fournette > Sony
RB - McCoy <<< White (one spot where NE has the edge)
WR - Evans >>>>>>>Byrd
WR - Godwin>>>>>>>Meyers
WR - Brown >>>>>>> Gunner
WR - Miller >>>>>>>> anyone else NE has
WR - Johnson >>>>>>> anyone else on NE
TE - Gronk>>>>>>>Izzo
TE - Brate >>>>>>> any of the Pats other TEs
LT - Smith = Wynn
LG - Marpet < Thuney
C - Jensen > Andrews
RG - Cappa > Mason
RT - Wirfs > Onwenu

So receiving RB and maybe LG are the only places where NE would seem to have the clear edge. But even at LG, Marpet is elite, so the drop-off from Thuney to him is minimal. And as good as Onwenu was this year, Wirfs was even better. And at most places, Tampa's advantage was SIGNIFICANT.

Now this is comparing them to a below-average offensive team. But just think what Brady went FROM and what he went TO. Absolutely night and day comparison.
 

Silverdude2167

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Tampa was 3rd in DVOA with Brady, 20th under Jameis. Completing 5% more of your passes and throwing 19 less INTs in a pretty high risk offense is going to make things a lot better. Brady's play is clearly diminished at 43, but I actually think his season is getting underrated by some. First year with team with a new, radically different offense, and while very talented, Godwin missed significant time and Evans was hampered for half the season. DVOA has him #3, football focus #7, QB rating #9; I think top 10 easily with a lot more variance than usual for him. Some days he was the GOAT, other days he was decidedly average, but I think the upside and the playoff run makes him more valuable than 90% of QBs still.
This is a good take. I still think he is good, but also believe that he can no longer elevate those around him.
 

loshjott

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Yes, the 2000 Rams actually probably had the best offense of the Greatest Show on Turf era (they scored more than the '99 and '01 teams) and started 6-0, but then a snap from their backup Center broke one of Kurt Warner's fingers. He missed a month+ and wasn't right when he came back, eventually losing in the Wild Card round. Much like the Legion of Boom Seahawks, it's a good illustration of how hard it is to establish a dynasty, and how much luck and a few inches plays a role.
And going back a generation, the 1985 Bears. They were going to be a dynasty, then Washington bounced them from the playoffs in their opening round after the 86 and 87 seasons.
 

johnmd20

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This is a good take. I still think he is good, but also believe that he can no longer elevate those around him.
You're trolling, right? Because I'm lost and you're not making any sense. TB scored 31, 30, 31, and 31 points in their four playoff games. And they won the super bowl. How is that not elevating a team that hadn't won a playoff game in almost two decades?
 

Silverdude2167

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You're trolling, right? Because I'm lost and you're not making any sense. TB scored 31, 30, 31, and 31 points in their four playoff games. And they won the super bowl. How is that not elevating a team that hadn't won a playoff game in almost two decades?
Because QB is really important and having a bad one that actively hurts you tends to prevent winning games.

Looking at BaseballJones post above, which players on that list did Brady elevate?
Since I am a bit confused as I don't think my statement was very inflammatory, where do you rank Brady against other QB's in the league right now?
 

johnmd20

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Because QB is really important and having a bad one that actively hurts you tends to prevent winning games.

Looking at BaseballJones post above, which players on that list did Brady elevate?
Since I am a bit confused as I don't think my statement was very inflammatory, where do you rank Brady against other QB's in the league right now?
I rank him very highly. He had a top 5 season and won the Super Bowl. As noted above, "Brady was the 2nd ranked QB by PFF, 5th in EPA/Play, 3rd in DYAR, 4th in DVOA, led all QBs in playoff EPA/Play and had a higher EPA/Play than the opposing QB in every single playoff game."

2nd, 5th, 3rd, 4th in all the advanced stats, dominated relative to his peers in the playoffs, and won the Super Bowl with a team that hadn't won a playoff game in 18 years. Yeah, I'd consider putting him in the Top 5 a fair ranking.
 

rodderick

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Because QB is really important and having a bad one that actively hurts you tends to prevent winning games.

Looking at BaseballJones post above, which players on that list did Brady elevate?
Since I am a bit confused as I don't think my statement was very inflammatory, where do you rank Brady against other QB's in the league right now?
The entire OL, Leonard Fournette, Scotty Miller and Rob Gronkowski.

Also, I have him as a top 5 QB right now and think there's a chance he puts up crazy numbers next year as he gets more familiar in that system. Rodgers was a middling QB in 2019 in a new system and he didn't even change teams, I don't know why that doesn't factor into the equation when judging Brady's 2020 performance.
 

Silverdude2167

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The entire OL, Leonard Fournette, Scotty Miller and Rob Gronkowski.
Your list isn't bad, but Gronk made me lol. The last time we saw Gronk before this season was when he was being held back by his QB in the SB LIII...;)

But you and @johnmd20 made fair points and while we disagree on how good he is, we all think he is very good for a 43-year-old.

I will ask can this be moved by a dope to the TompaBay thread, as it seems to fit better there.