Carson Smith's elbow was killed until it was dead and there were thread title complaints.

[soxhop411]

For those who who wondering what happened to Carson Smith..... Now you know

KANSAS CITY — Red Sox right-hander Carson Smith has pitched just three times since being activated two weeks ago, and it’s because he’s still feeling the effects of a spring training elbow injury.

The Red Sox acquired Smith this winter to bring his wipeout slider to the late innings, but he has pitched only 2 2/3 scoreless innings since debuting on May 3. He has gone six and five days, respectively, between appearances, which he attributes in part to his recovery time not being where it should be

“Sometimes I feel great the next day,” he told WEEI.com. “Sometimes there may be a hint of something there. They told me that’s what happens with these types of injuries, so we’re just taking it day by day.”

Smith last pitched in Saturday’s 6-5 win over the Astros, sandwiching two singles around a double-play grounder in the seventh before yielding to Tommy Layne.

Before that, he threw an inning on May 9 in a 14-7 shellacking of the A’s, and he debuted with a scoreless seventh against the White Sox on May 3.

“There still are stages throughout the injury I had of recovering that I’m working through,” he said. “It’s just part of it. The way I bounce back is obviously one way to gauge that. We’re working it, working me in there as often as they can, and I’m getting sharper every time.”

Smith left a spring training outing on March 21 with right forearm soreness. Both pitcher and organization breathed a sigh of relief when he was placed on the disabled list with a flexor strain, and he opened the season on the DL before making two rehab appearances innings at Double-A Portland on the last two days of April.

Smith describes himself as a work in progress.

“Obviously I’m still trying to . . . I’m not in midseason form right now,” he said. “I had a shortened spring training as far as outings, but I feel pretty comfortable out there. I’m not the guy that needs to touch the ball every other day to stay sharp, so right now I’m comfortable with the outings I’m getting and see where it goes from here.

“I’m hopefully always getting better, regardless of an injury or not, but there’s room for progress to be made and maybe a little sharpness to be refined.”

Fangraphs has the velocity of his sinker down about 1 mph (from 92.5 last year to 91.3), and the numbers suggest his slider isn’t breaking horizontally as hard, either, but it’s not as if Smith’s stuff is egregiously diminished. It’s just going to take time.

In the meantime, he’s happy to watch the offense purr and limit the need for high-leverage relief innings.

“It’s been awesome to watch,” he said. “Those guys put up 10-plus every day last homestand. The way they’re swinging the bats is fun to watch. Being down there in the bullpen, it’s always a comfortable feeling knowing that your offense can go out there and put up runs.”

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/05/17/carson-smith-still-managing-elbow-injury-which-has-limited-ability-to-recover-between-outings/


Paging @DaveRoberts'Shoes

Brian MacPherson ‏@brianmacp 7m7 minutes ago
Carson Smith is recovering more slowly from appearances than the Red Sox were hoping. He wasn't available Tuesday. DL could be an option.

Michael Silverman ‏@MikeSilvermanBB 13m13 minutes ago
Reliever Carson Smith dealing w lingering soreness in forearm. A DL stint is not out of question but still too soon to say.

 

[rembrat]

But I thought it was Farrell being incompetent and inflexible.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

But I thought it was Farrell being incompetent and inflexible.

It is. Smith clearly should be DL'd again if his elbow can't tolerate pitching more than one inning per week.

 

[rembrat]

It is. Smith clearly should be DL'd again if his elbow can't tolerate pitching more than one inning per week.

I think that falls on the lap of Wren/Hazen/DD and not the field manager.

 

[DJnVa]

It is. Smith clearly should be DL'd again if his elbow can't tolerate pitching more than one inning per week.

That's the manager's call?

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I think that falls on the lap of Wren/Hazen/DD and not the field manager.

Possibly Hazen, but the job of a GM is to provide the players the manager wants.

Farrell did this exact same thing with Hanley last May, before Wren and DDski were even aboard.

 

[IpswichSox]

Whoever's call it is - clearly, it's not Farrell's -- Carson Smith needs to be in AAA. It's ridiculous to take up a roster spot for a once-a-week pitcher. Already, before this week, we were carrying too many pitchers, and Farrell only had three bench players (two if you count whoever is not catching that day). Luckily that hasn't hurt us given the recent run production, but there's just no need for Smith to be here if he can only pitch once a week. Maybe it took two weeks to figure that out, but now that Smith himself has acknowledged it, send him down and get him right.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

That's the manager's call?

The manager tells the club executives which players he wants on the roster -- that is, which players he judges will give the team the best chance to win. Then the club executives are responsible for making the necessary roster moves within the organization, or for pushing back with the organization's long-term interests at stake. But there's no dotted line in the org chart connecting the bullpen coach directly to the team president.

If a GM is down in the bullpen asking a reliever about the state of his arm, the organizational hierarchy is broken. DL moves have to flow through medical staff, of course, but lots of times the medical evidence isn't clear-cut enough to make a decision on the evidence alone. Like with Hanley, last May.

Judgment calls like this come down to the judgment of the executive in charge. In this situation, that's the manager.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

What gets me is that I recall the last hurdle Smith had to get over before he was activated to the 25-man roster was getting through back to back outings in his rehab assignment. He did that and I think within a couple days, he was activated. So if the criteria was pitching back-to-back days without issue, then how did he do that with presumably no problems and then suddenly have recovery issues the next time he pitched? Was he hiding something during his rehab just to get back to the big league roster or did something happen in his first outing or two?

We're all being quick to want to assign blame to the manager or GM or medical staff, but how often do things like this end up being the player trying to tough it out or lie to himself (and management/medical staff) just to get back on the field, and doing more damage than good?

 

[Average Reds]

The manager tells the club executives which players he wants on the roster -- that is, which players he judges will give the team the best chance to win. Then the club executives are responsible for making the necessary roster moves within the organization, or for pushing back with the organization's long-term interests at stake. But there's no dotted line in the org chart connecting the bullpen coach directly to the team president.

If a GM is down in the bullpen asking a reliever about the state of his arm, the organizational hierarchy is broken. DL moves have to flow through medical staff, of course, but lots of times the medical evidence isn't clear-cut enough to make a decision on the evidence alone. Like with Hanley, last May.

Judgment calls like this come down to the judgment of the executive in charge. In this situation, that's the manager.

You are making a huge number of unfounded assumptions here.

First, if a reporter is educating us ab out the condition of Smith's elbow, it's pretty obvious that the GM doesn't need to be in the bullpen to know the condition of Smith's elbow. And yet, the team is comfortable (for now) allowing him to take a roster spot.

What does that tell you?

 

[Phil Plantier]

Is this decision that obvious, though? Even assuming that Smith doesn't improve, isn't 45 innings of high-quality relief worth more over the season than the replacement bench player?

 

[YTF]

So in effect, the Sox can call up an extra pitcher because of today's double header and yet not actually have an extra pitcher because of this nonsense? I won't blame Farrell for this, but if Smith's not healthy enough to serve the team when needed, why is he taking up a roster spot? Either promote another arm until Smith is right or if you've resigned yourself to one less pitcher in the pen then expand the bench. There is room for growth in both areas.

 

[Bosoxen]

Is this decision that obvious, though? Even assuming that Smith doesn't improve, isn't 45 innings of high-quality relief worth more over the season than the replacement bench player?

Once you add the additional workload required of Tazawa and Uehara due to Smith's lack of availability, then no, it's absolutely not worth it to have him on the roster over a replacement player. His presence on the roster affects the entire bullpen, not just his roster spot.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

If a reporter is educating us about the condition of Smith's elbow, it's pretty obvious that the GM doesn't need to be in the bullpen to know the condition of Smith's elbow. And yet, the team is comfortable (for now) allowing him to take a roster spot.

What does that tell you?

You are making unfounded assumptions, too. We all do, it's a message board about sports.

However, reporters are in the clubhouse an awful lot more than the club executives, on a day-by-day basis. Stories from past years indicate flow of information passes from players to coaches to executives to owners; or, it passes from players and/or coaches to the public through the press. Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with the Sox clubhouse, but even considering the homestand it took 14 days since Smith's activation before this issue started getting any play.

And what it tells me, is that this is the judgment call which has been made:

Even assuming that Smith doesn't improve, isn't 45 innings of high-quality relief worth more over the season than the replacement bench player?

 

[joe dokes]

You are making a huge number of unfounded assumptions here.

First, if a reporter is educating us ab out the condition of Smith's elbow, it's pretty obvious that the GM doesn't need to be in the bullpen to know the condition of Smith's elbow. And yet, the team is comfortable (for now) allowing him to take a roster spot.

What does that tell you?

It tells me that Farrell is an idiot.

OR.......

It tells me that he and DD and God knows who else hashed it out and decided that -- at least for now -- Smith pitching once or twice a week here is better than him pitching once or twice a week at AAA while some guy who the team thinks isn't worthy of major league ball is pitching in the major leagues. And probably that they'll keep talking about it and if Smith's condition doesn;t change, then a move may be necessary.

 

[ALiveH]

He needs to be shut down so they can figure this out. Continuing to run him out there twice a week means best case he's about half availability, but more likely scenario is he doesn't recover and eventually loses effectiveness or has to be shut down for the year anyway. I'd rather he be at full strength and availability later this year or for next year.

 

[DJnVa]

He needs to be shut down so they can figure this out. Continuing to run him out there twice a week means best case he's about half availability, but more likely scenario is he doesn't recover and eventually loses effectiveness or has to be shut down for the year anyway. I'd rather he be at full strength and availability later this year or for next year.

Don't you think the team wants that as well, and has decided that this current schedule will not preclude that from happening?

 

[ALiveH]

yeah, you're right, the team always has superior inside information, so no one should ever question a team's decision-making on an anonymous internet sports forum.

what do you think is the most likely scenario?

 

[Van Everyman]

Don't you think the team wants that as well, and has decided that this current schedule will not preclude that from happening?

Poss. But we can't trust them because ... Farrell.

 

[soxhop411]

Brian MacPherson ‏@brianmacp 7m7 minutes ago
Carson Smith is recovering more slowly from appearances than the Red Sox were hoping. He wasn't available Tuesday. DL could be an option.

Michael Silverman ‏@MikeSilvermanBB 13m13 minutes ago
Reliever Carson Smith dealing w lingering soreness in forearm. A DL stint is not out of question but still too soon to say.

 

[grimshaw]

You are making unfounded assumptions, too. We all do, it's a message board about sports.

However, reporters are in the clubhouse an awful lot more than the club executives, on a day-by-day basis. Stories from past years indicate flow of information passes from players to coaches to executives to owners; or, it passes from players and/or coaches to the public through the press. Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with the Sox clubhouse, but even considering the homestand it took 14 days since Smith's activation before this issue started getting any play.

And what it tells me, is that this is the judgment call which has been made:

If I'm hazarding a guess while everyone is making assumptions, something like this happened after the game was postponed on Monday.
Mike: "John - what's the bullpen status so we can assess which guy you need from AAA."
John - "Barnes, maybe Ross, Layne."
Mike: "How's Carson doing?"
John: "Weeeell.

I would imagine that there has to be some sort of daily conversation between Farrell and whomever about availability of pitchers each day. They need to plan ahead and I'm sure they do.

Farrell warming him up without bringing him in (which he has done a few times. Once he did it twice in one game!) helps nothing though. He really needs to cut that shit out. It's less egregious with other guys, but even if it isn't the usual role of the guy, bring him in or he's burned anyhow.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Possibly Hazen, but the job of a GM is to provide the players the manager wants.

The 1980s called. They want their philosophy back

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

One of the crazy features of the constant Farrell criticism is that it's so rare that anyone provides an alternative. There seem to be two criticisms here: (1) They are jeopardizing his health, he should be shut down. (2) At limited usage he's taking up a valuable roster spot.

On number 1, everyone is just guessing. And to pin a big decision that is made by the player, his agent, the front office, and the manager solely on the manger is crazy. If you want to hate him, have it at it, but to play doctor based on news articles to do it and then declare it's his fault, well, at least understand that's what you're doing.

On number 2, who are we going to bring up? Our 24th and 25th spots at the moment are Josh Rutledge and Marco Hernandez, and the next man up is Noe Ramirez (brought up today for the one-day 26th spot). If Smith can rehab in the bigs just as easily in the minors, we want to send him down for a second utility infielder? Smith has options and can go down if there's really something we would do with the spot and he's not progressing. There's no urgency at the moment. (Just wondering when Moncada or Beni makes an appearance in this thread as a serious suggestiong -- page 1 or page 2?)

 

[geoduck no quahog]

yeah, you're right, the team always has superior inside information, so no one should ever question a team's decision-making on an anonymous internet sports forum...

Oh please. No one's saying things can't be questioned. Still, one of the most frustrating aspects of judging a team from afar involves injuries - where the viewing public and sports writers have so little real information (by design) and there are no stats to assess. Perhaps we could all become privy to x-rays, MRI's and personal conversations, perhaps not.

The same goes for Rodriguez. Even the good doctor can only comment on what he reads in the newspaper for things already diagnosed - and I've never seen him speculate beyond what the information at hand tells him.

I posted in the other thread about 3 random pitchers who had flexor strains. One of them had to undergo surgery and was lost for a year. One rested and then pitched the rest of the season with no apparent effects. So, where does Smith fall in that spectrum?

I understand the frustration and a need to blame someone (anyone) for bad outcomes, but jumping to conclusions without pertinent information is not very helpful to any discussion.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

The 1980s called. They want their philosophy back

You are making a huge number of unfounded assumptions here.

I haven't received even one call.

 

[phenweigh]

IMO ...

Smith pitched back-to-back days on rehab and reported that he felt fine
The Sox activated him on that information
After his first appearance with Boston, he reported discomfort/pain
The medical staff's opinion is that this should be monitored day-to-day
Smith was kept in Boston based on the hope he'd be fine sooner than later
The Sox have revisited that decision daily and haven't changed the plan yet
They may change the plan
Hindsight being 20-20, he should have stayed in rehab longer

This opinion is based on this quote from Smith in the link in the first post; "Sometimes I feel great the next day,” he told WEEI.com. “Sometimes there may be a hint of something there. They told me that’s what happens with these types of injuries, so we’re just taking it day by day."

 

[E5 Yaz]

Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe 7m7 minutes ago
After his pregame throwing session in the outfield, Carson Smith now talking to two coaches and the head athletic trainer.

 

[Rasputin]

Between this and Eduardo Rodriguez' knee, I am very irked. We haven't had our pitching staff healthy for a single game so far and it would be really nice if that would happen soon.

Also, using this information to bash Farrell over the head is ridiculous.

 

[IpswichSox]

I don't get why we would short-hand the bullpen during a period when our rotation is so suspect. Outside of Wright and Porcello, we don't have a starter whose ERA is south of 5. With Porcello showing some signs of regression during his last several starts, Buchholz on life-support and not knowing what to expect from Kelly, I would think a fortified bullpen would be a priority. The offense's .927 OPS in May is masking all kinds of rotation red flags at the moment. The team sure is fun to watch right now, but I also feel like we're just as likely to lose three series in a row as we are to win three series in a row. WE NEED MORE PITCHING!

 

[soxhop411]

Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe 60s60 seconds ago
Smith politely declined an interview request after what was a lengthy meeting with the trainer. Pretty clear something is up.

 

[DeadlySplitter]

I'm not sure how much of this is Pete looking for a story and how much is real

 

[E5 Yaz]

I'm not sure how much of this is Pete looking for a story and how much is real

It's real.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Between this and Eduardo Rodriguez' knee, I am very irked. We haven't had our pitching staff healthy for a single game so far and it would be really nice if that would happen soon.

Also, using this information to bash Farrell over the head is ridiculous.

No one's saying Farrell is responsible for Smith's lingering injury.

However, continuing to carry 8 relievers because one of them can't pitch and another is a loogy, while the starting rotation keeps getting lit up...well, that may be worth a bit of a head-bash IMO.

Fortunately, the Sox offense went into super-nova mode on the last homestand...but this is exactly precisely the same judgment call as featured with Hanley last year, and Pedroia for the last few in a row now.

 

[YTF]

One of the crazy features of the constant Farrell criticism is that it's so rare that anyone provides an alternative. There seem to be two criticisms here: (1) They are jeopardizing his health, he should be shut down. (2) At limited usage he's taking up a valuable roster spot.

On number 1, everyone is just guessing. And to pin a big decision that is made by the player, his agent, the front office, and the manager solely on the manger is crazy. If you want to hate him, have it at it, but to play doctor based on news articles to do it and then declare it's his fault, well, at least understand that's what you're doing.

On number 2, who are we going to bring up? Our 24th and 25th spots at the moment are Josh Rutledge and Marco Hernandez, and the next man up is Noe Ramirez (brought up today for the one-day 26th spot). If Smith can rehab in the bigs just as easily in the minors, we want to send him down for a second utility infielder? Smith has options and can go down if there's really something we would do with the spot and he's not progressing. There's no urgency at the moment. (Just wondering when Moncada or Beni makes an appearance in this thread as a serious suggestiong -- page 1 or page 2?)

Denny pertaining to criticism #2, I understand your questioning as to who the Sox bring up because there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of ready to contribute talent available right now. That said anytime a player is unavailable for any reason it impacts the rest of the roster. In this case, the possibility of Smith being unavailable for multiple games at a time has the potential to tax an already shaky relief situation which is further complicated by the fact that they can not depend on the rotation to ease some of the pressure. IMO another arm would be beneficial even if only in a mop up role so someone else doesn't have to go out for a second or third straight day.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

If Carson goes on the DL, do you call up a bullpen replacement or a bench player? And who?

 

[grimshaw]

If Carson goes on the DL, do you call up a bullpen replacement or a bench player? And who?

Bullpen IMO until they have their second off day on Monday.
In terms of likelihood, Light probably first, then maybe Johnson if the pen is toasted after today (even with tomorrow off, since some of these guys could use more than one game off) since his turn is up tomorrow.

Varvaro also makes sense also since he can go 2, but you'd have to DFA someone. No great loss if it's someone like Coyle since no one will want him.

Cuevas and Elias went yesterday and today, so not them now.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

Yes, if Smith can't pitch today then putting him on the DL and bringing up Vavaro or Light seems like something that should be done like right now, if there's any chance of getting one of them to KC for the second game.

Also agree that Coyle wouldn't be claimed and wouldn't be a loss if he were.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Denny pertaining to criticism #2, I understand your questioning as to who the Sox bring up because there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of ready to contribute talent available right now. That said anytime a player is unavailable for any reason it impacts the rest of the roster. In this case, the possibility of Smith being unavailable for multiple games at a time has the potential to tax an already shaky relief situation which is further complicated by the fact that they can not depend on the rotation to ease some of the pressure. IMO another arm would be beneficial even if only in a mop up role so someone else doesn't have to go out for a second or third straight day.

Yeah, if you know he cannot pitch at all, then of course I agree with that. But Smith was activated from the DL 2 weeks ago, and he immediately came up and got 3 guys on 9 pitches. He took longer to recover than we would have liked, but when he did pitch again, he again pitched well -- actually having to get the equivalent of 4 outs because of an error. And now we're into last week. The team was winning and it doesn't seem to me it was unreasonable for them to wait and see how he recovered a second time instead of immediately declaring it a problem and calling up Ramirez. Yes, it was a long recovery time and now it sounds like they know and are public with it, and that he may be unable to pitch other than every 5 days. There may certainly be grounds to criticize how they handle it now going forward after giving it a couple of tries, but I can't fault how they've handled the last two weeks.

If there were someone who could pitch 2-3 innings of 5.00 to 6.00 ERA baseball in the minors who could take the spot, maybe you act with more urgency. But it seems to be the arm they think is MLB ready when they have an extra spot in the bullpen in the moment (as confirmed by the fact they called him up today) is Noe Ramirez. When you need to face three batters to get an out, you're not even really saving the bullpen very much anyway.

 

[YTF]

If Carson goes on the DL, do you call up a bullpen replacement or a bench player? And who?

Either could help, but there really isn't a whole lot of goodness on the 40 man. That said I think an arm is needed more than a bat. How close is Joe Kelly to coming back? I don't want to rush him, but if it's more a matter now of getting some work rather than injury concern then perhaps the staff might be better served with him being there.

 

[RedOctober3829]

My initial feeling of a torn UCL with him is still gnawing at me. Those forearm strains are never, ever good.

 

[InsideTheParker]

It's a minor point, and I don't regret the trade at all, but Wade Miley pitched a shut-out against the Orioles yesterday.
I assume the Red Sox doctors took a good long look at x-rays of Carson Smith. But I don't have complete faith in them.

 

[joe dokes]

Either could help, but there really isn't a whole lot of goodness on the 40 man. That said I think an arm is needed more than a bat. How close is Joe Kelly to coming back? I don't want to rush him, but if it's more a matter now of getting some work rather than injury concern then perhaps the staff might be better served with him being there.

Although not officially announced, Farrell has all but said Kelly is starting Saturday, which is when they need a starter, and would be the 5th day after kelly's last AAA start.

 

[alwyn96]

My initial feeling of a torn UCL with him is still gnawing at me. Those forearm strains are never, ever good.

Yeah, forearm issues are bad news. I'm assuming this doesn't end until Smith makes the dreaded visit to Dr Andrews, and if that doesn't happen I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[DanoooME]

They do get an additional reprieve by calling up a 26th guy for today only because of the doubleheader, so that person can help fill in for a day until they decide what to do with Smith.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

It's a minor point, and I don't regret the trade at all, but Wade Miley pitched a shut-out against the Orioles yesterday.

Even after that shutout Miley's having a worse year this year than last (97 ERA+ last year, 90 this year). And his FIP is much higher than last year, indicating possible further regression.

It would be terribly unfortunate with Smith needs TJ surgery, but Miley was always going to be an average pitcher at best. I liked him well enough, he ate innings and worked fast, but his upside was pretty limited. The Sox took a chance at getting a power bullpen arm.

 

[YTF]

Although not officially announced, Farrell has all but said Kelly is starting Saturday, which is when they need a starter, and would be the 5th day after kelly's last AAA start.

OK, For some reason I thought he was getting one more rehab start which was why I wondered if it was only a matter of getting one more game in before being recalled. Thought if that were the case perhaps he might be able to get in a bullpen appearance or two before slotting back into the rotation given there are a couple of days off coming up. In hindsight, realizing that the double header pretty much negated that "extra" day off as far as the rotation goes.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

You are making a huge number of unfounded assumptions here.

That's what he does. It just never ends. Where does this shit come from? No one knows, but Buzzkill is super sure of it and will likely try to lecture us on it.

Of course this isn't Farrell's call. But this is the sort of stuff that just makes you shake your head from the anti-Farrell crowd. That was several mountains of bullshit to find a way to make him responsible.

 

[Average Reds]

You are making unfounded assumptions, too. We all do, it's a message board about sports.

However, reporters are in the clubhouse an awful lot more than the club executives, on a day-by-day basis. Stories from past years indicate flow of information passes from players to coaches to executives to owners; or, it passes from players and/or coaches to the public through the press. Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with the Sox clubhouse, but even considering the homestand it took 14 days since Smith's activation before this issue started getting any play.

And what it tells me, is that this is the judgment call which has been made:

If your previous posts are any indication, it appears to tell you that Farrell is the one making the judgment call, which I don't buy for a second and which is unsupported by any evidence.

 

[Adrian's Dome]

Of course this isn't Farrell's call. But this is the sort of stuff that just makes you shake your head from the anti-Farrell crowd. That was several mountains of bullshit to find a way to make him responsible.

Amusing, since the biggest pro-Farrell guy on the site brought him up in the very first reply with zero fucking relevance to the topic at all, but yeah, it's the anti-Farrell crowd that's doing things that make you shake your head.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Yes, if Smith can't pitch today then putting him on the DL and bringing up Vavaro or Light seems like something that should be done like right now, if there's any chance of getting one of them to KC for the second game.

Also agree that Coyle wouldn't be claimed and wouldn't be a loss if he were.

I'll always have the day Coyle hit that dinger through the tire sign at Hadlock...