Canadian and US Olympic Teams Begin to Take Shape

cshea

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I think the issue is Burnside and/or his editors. He was listening in in hours and hours of meetings, and cherry picked a few choice quotes from Butke about Ryan. We done know the full context of each quote and what was being discussed when it was said. I'd like to think that the guys charged with selecting the national team do more than:

Poile: What about Bobby Ryan?
Burke: He can't spell intense!
Poile: Ok that settles it he's not on the roster!

Edit: The article painted Burke in a bad light. A non-stats old school curmudgeon. Every Burke quote was either a knock on a player or a wise crack at Dean Lombardi's expense for creating a report about why Keith Yandle should make the team.
 

Fred in Lynn

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They certainly do not like to play Yandle while a man or more down, and that goes back to when he came up to the NHL. The implication, and perhaps the reality, is that he, along with Ryan, are bad defensive players. What they both do, however, is score a lot of goals relative to their colleagues at their respective positions, and you seem cavalier in brushing that off. Like I wrote earlier, Poile and rest of the Team USA execs are gambling that superior defensive but inferior offensive players on the bigger surface will help them find more success. They're opting for one wart over another. You seemed surprised that many people here criticized these decisions by Poile, when the response was entirely predictable. It work out for him, but he's taking a gamble.

I don't know what Corsi QoC is measuring, and I'm skeptical it means anything. Not seeing what has changed in hockey that permits isolation and quantitative measurement of individual performance. Apart from counting goals over a long enough period of time, measuring value of hockey players is still all art to me. Jesus is going to have to make a personal appearance if he wants me to come to him.
 

soxfan121

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Fred in Lynn said:
I loved Ryan's response to Burke's comments, which went something like "you could have just said you weren't selecting me."
 
I didn't like Ryan's response, which was to say that Burke's comments about his intensity were "gutless". The comments, agree or disagree, are the opposite of gutless. I'd have loved it if he just said Burke is an asshole, which both adequately addresses the grievance about the quote and is demonstrably true. 
 
That said, Burnside's piece does portray Burke as "the heavy" and I have no doubt that Burnside cleared every single one of those quotes with Burke before posting the story (which was fascinating, btw). Burke is the grumpy old man of USA Hockey. The bit about having a nightmare about Seth Jones costing the team a medal is more dickish than the many dickish things he said about Ryan. And it was an attempt to undermine Poile specifically, showing what Burke's role was and how far he was willing to go in order to 'skate that wing' for the process/team. 
 
scotian1 said:
Could anyone be worse without the puck or a bigger defensive liability than Kessel and I like the guy.
 
I believe the thought process was that they could have one big defensive liability with intensity problems and goal scoring ability - Kessel gets a check+ in every category on the "goal scoring winger" job description, whereas Ryan only gets a check. 
 

TheRealness

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Add in the fact Kessel has game-breaking speed on a larger ice surface, and you've discovered why Kessel made the team. Ryan is a great player and all, but he doesn't have elite speed. He has good speed with good size, which makes him a formidable player, but I could see him being exposed on an Olympic ice surface, while Kessel's speed and quickness should help him tremendously. 
 

scotian1

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Maybe it just me but if I could trade Kessel for Bobby Ryan I would. I watch every Maple Leaf game. Phil Kessel has 34 pts and is  plus1, Ryan 36 pts and is plus 10. I just think Ryan brings more to the table. Kessel is faster but far less responsible IMO. Also interesting that while Kessel grew up playing in the U.S. Development system, Ryan during his formative years played junior in the Canadian Hockey League.
Interesting that Burnside is being accused of cherry picking his quotes by USA Hockey.
 

kenneycb

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soxfan121 said:
 
I didn't like Ryan's response, which was to say that Burke's comments about his intensity were "gutless". The comments, agree or disagree, are the opposite of gutless. I'd have loved it if he just said Burke is an asshole, which both adequately addresses the grievance about the quote and is demonstrably true. 
 
That said, Burnside's piece does portray Burke as "the heavy" and I have no doubt that Burnside cleared every single one of those quotes with Burke before posting the story (which was fascinating, btw). Burke is the grumpy old man of USA Hockey. The bit about having a nightmare about Seth Jones costing the team a medal is more dickish than the many dickish things he said about Ryan. And it was an attempt to undermine Poile specifically, showing what Burke's role was and how far he was willing to go in order to 'skate that wing' for the process/team. 
 
 
I believe the thought process was that they could have one big defensive liability with intensity problems and goal scoring ability - Kessel gets a check+ in every category on the "goal scoring winger" job description, whereas Ryan only gets a check. 

 
Not according to Poile:

Poile said USA Hockey welcomed Burnside and Allen’s presence in an effort to popularize the game and was “happy to have them part of our team, if you will.” Poile also said Team USA executives believed they had the right to prevent publication of objectionable comments -- as with their control over material in HBO’s "24/7" series -- and that Burke had included Ryan’s name on Burke’s suggested final roster.“Unfortunately the comments were a little harsh,” Poile said. “The problem that we had with a communication breakdown that happened there was we thought this was similar to a '24/7' situation where we had editorial review on what was going to be said. It caught all of us off-guard. And again, that’s on us.”
 
 
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-olympics-bobby-ryan-20140103,0,2692863.story#ixzz2pMA8y9Rn
 

Fred in Lynn

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I didn't like Ryan's response, which was to say that Burke's comments about his intensity were "gutless". The comments, agree or disagree, are the opposite of gutless. I'd have loved it if he just said Burke is an asshole, which both adequately addresses the grievance about the quote and is demonstrably true. 

I didn't find Burke's comments courageous, i.e., the opposite of gutless, in any way, shape, or form. Burke is like a spoiled toddler who lashes out when he has a grievance with someone.

The response from Ryan that I mentioned wasn't included in that article, although the quotes taken from that article were part of the interview in which they were said.
 

Cellar-Door

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It is gutless to make comments to a reporter about a guy and never have said anything about it to the player is what Ryan means.
 

ForceAtHome

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Fred in Lynn said:
They certainly do not like to play Yandle while a man or more down, and that goes back to when he came up to the NHL. The implication, and perhaps the reality, is that he, along with Ryan, are bad defensive players. What they both do, however, is score a lot of goals relative to their colleagues at their respective positions, and you seem cavalier in brushing that off. Like I wrote earlier, Poile and rest of the Team USA execs are gambling that superior defensive but inferior offensive players on the bigger surface will help them find more success. They're opting for one wart over another. You seemed surprised that many people here criticized these decisions by Poile, when the response was entirely predictable. It work out for him, but he's taking a gamble.
 
Yandle is so horribly overrated. Does he get points? Yes. That doesn't mean he's creating a ton of offense relative to his colleagues on defense. He simply plays a lot of minutes, none of which come on the penalty kill, and is generally paired against weaker competition. His production itself isn't that special.
 
Here is Yandle stacked up against the other left-handed shooting defenseman who made Team USA. He's 3rd of 5 in goals for on the ice per 60, and last in goals against on the ice. He's also last in differential, and the only negative player.
 

 
But wait, Yandle may be shitty at defense, but he's a powerplay stud!
 

 
Well, he's last in differential there. He's 4th on among those players in goals on the ice for, last in goals on against, and worst in differential again. Orpik's sample size is worthless, so you can throw his number out. He wouldn't be able to be on the power play anyway though, if he even suits up.
 
But wait! Orpik, Martin, and Fowler played on Pittsburgh and Anaheim. Pittsburgh is +35 in goal differential and Anaheim is +31. It makes sense that their players have better differentials. True. Suter plays on Minnesota (-9) which is actually worse than Phoenix (-2). But, in the interest of fairness, let's look at Phoenix for a more fair approach...
 
Phoenix scores more goals per 60 minutes at 5-on-5 when Derek Morris, Oliver Ekman-Larrson, David Schlemko, Michael Stone, and Zbynek Michalek are on the ice. Yandle is 6th on the team among defenseman in goals scored while on the ice per 60 at full strength. He's the 7th best defenseman on Phoenix in goals for/goals against differential per 60. On the powerplay, Ekman-Larrson (a far superior defenseman) beats him in scoring rate and differential as well. (All of this is ignoring the fact that Yandle has a lower quality of competition.)
 
The idea that we can look past Yandle's defensive faults because he brings so much offensively is silly. It doesn't even work for Phoenix. I definitely wouldn't try it against better competition. The idea that the US doesn't have other very good powerplay options is silly. Right-handed shooting Shattenkirk and Carlson, by the way, are both over 9 goals/60 on the powerplay.
 
Fred in Lynn said:
I don't know what Corsi QoC is measuring, and I'm skeptical it means anything. Not seeing what has changed in hockey that permits isolation and quantitative measurement of individual performance. Apart from counting goals over a long enough period of time, measuring value of hockey players is still all art to me. Jesus is going to have to make a personal appearance if he wants me to come to him.
 
In short, it measures competition. Yandle's score suggests (as reality would confirm since Michalek and Ekman-Larsson are the top pair) that he's paired against weaker opposing lines and poorer competition.
 
Edit to add: When Yandle is on the ice, the Coyotes score 2.54 goals/60 minutes. They score 2.62 goals/60 when he's off the ice. They allow 2.96 goals/60 with Yandle on the ice, and allow 2.08 goals with Yandle off the ice. In other words, per 60 minutes, the Coyotes are nearly a goal worse (0.95 goals) with Yandle on the ice than off. They also score less, too.
 

scotian1

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Doesn't Poile know that a journalist's job is to report the story not to be a cheerleader for USA Hockey. Burnside reported the story and I can't understand why anyone wouldn't think that it wouldn't be that way. Knowing reporters were in the room perhaps Burke should have been a little more careful with his words.
 

scotian1

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Well Canada's roster will be announced in a couple of hours. It will be doubtful that the controversy crated by the Czech announcement yesterday will be repeated. Hard to fathom some of the Czech choices and omissions.
 

Spacemans Bong

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Thanks for the spoilers, dude. I was hoping Subban would be picked last so my neck veins would bulge like they did when Pacioretty got selected (just about) last for the USA. 
 
I am laughing watching this. The bilingual nature, the minister saying the team will make Canada proud from coast to coast to coast, the outrageously massive importance this has to the whole country. It is lulz. 
 

RedOctober3829

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Goaltenders
Roberto Luoungo
Carey Price
Mike Smith
 
Defensemen
Jay Bowmester
Drew Doughty
Dan Hamhuis
Duncan Keith
PK Subban
Alex Pietrangelo
ME Vlasic
Shea Weber
 
Forwards
Sidney Crosby
Rick Nash
Steven Stamkos
Jamie Benn
Patrice Bergeron
Jeff Carter
Matt Duchene
Ryan Getzlaf
Chris Kunitz
Patrick Marleau
Corey Perry
Patrick Sharp
John Tavares
Jonathan Toews
 

TSC

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Forwards:
 
Jamie Benn
Patrice Bergeron
Jeff Carter
Sidney Crosby
Matt Duchense
Ryan Getzlaf
Chris Kunitz 
Patrick Marleau
Rick Nash
Cory Perry
Patrick Sharp
Steven Stamkos 
John Tavares
Jonathan Toews
 

TSC

SoSH's Doug Neidermeyer
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RedOctober3829 said:
Goaltenders
Roberto Luoungo
Carey Price
Mike Smith
 
Defensemen
Jay Bowmester
Drew Doughty
Dan Hamhuis
Duncan Keith
PK Subban
Alex Pietrangelo
ME Vasic
Shea Weber
 
YOUR SPELLING SUCKS AND YOU WERE SLOW
 

Dropkick Izzy

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No Giroux or St. Louis. 
 
Can someone remind me what the protocol is if Stamkos can't play?  Can they add someone outside of these 25 or is the roster set in stone from this point forward?
 

cshea

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They went with Carter and Marleau ahead of both MSL and Claude Giroux. Somewhat of a surprise.

D is pretty much as expected. Hamhuis over 2010 guys Dan Boyle and Brent Seabrook due to handedness.

Edit Izzy- they can make changes due to injury until to 24 hours before they play their first game. That is when it gets locked in.
 

scotian1

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Yes, if a player like Stamkos cannot go, his spot can be filled by another and that is true with an player on any team up to a certain date.  That being said, the only real surprise for me is the omission of St.Louis but I have no problem with who was chosen. I wonder if Giroux not showing up for the summer camp had any effect on his omission. I didn't think he had a good World Championship last spring on the big ice.
 

ForceAtHome

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  • No Semin for Russia. That may be the biggest snub of the tournament.
  • Finland's goalie corps have to be the best in the tournament: Rask, Niemi, Lehtonen.
  • Finland is taking two WJC-eligible players in Maatta and Barkov. Not a surprise, but very cool. For reference, their teammate Selanne played in his first Olympics in 1992. Maatta wasn't born until '94 and Barkov was a late '95.
 

Lupe Whalewatch

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scotian1 said:
Yes, if a player like Stamkos cannot go, his spot can be filled by another and that is true with an player on any team up to a certain date.  That being said, the only real surprise for me is the omission of St.Louis but I have no problem with who was chosen. I wonder if Giroux not showing up for the summer camp had any effect on his omission. I didn't think he had a good World Championship last spring on the big ice.
No love for Jumbo Joe? 43 helpers and 5th in nhl in scoring...surprised he hasnt really even been mentioned.
 

TheRealness

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Lupe Whalewatch said:
No love for Jumbo Joe? 43 helpers and 5th in nhl in scoring...surprised he hasnt really even been mentioned.
 
From the roster they put forth, it seems they are concerned about the Olympic ice surface and that a guy like Jumbo Joe can get exposed by quicker teams.
 
The thing that always fascinates me about these things are line pairings for both the US and Canada. I thought Canada would be more Center heavy, but with the roster they put forth they should be able to put together at least three lines with forwards at their natural positions. The US, however, will be faced with starting guys like Pavelski and Kesler, who while former centers, have been playing wing for the past year or so. Should be interesting with the way it plays out. 
 
Looking at the rosters,I have Canada, Sweden and Russia as the top three teams, followed by the USA, Finland and Czech teams, then Slovakia, then everyone else. I think the US is going to have a really tough time making it to the medal round, let alone the gold medal game. 
 

krobe

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Does anyone know of a breakdown of Olympians by NHL team?  The Google has failed me.
 

sachmoney

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ForceAtHome said:
 
  • No Semin for Russia. That may be the biggest snub of the tournament.
  • Finland's goalie corps have to be the best in the tournament: Rask, Niemi, Lehtonen.
  • Finland is taking two WJC-eligible players in Maatta and Barkov. Not a surprise, but very cool. For reference, their teammate Selanne played in his first Olympics in 1992. Maatta wasn't born until '94 and Barkov was a late '95.
 
Given how this thread started, it shouldn't be a surprise that I wholeheartedly agree. I know Semin missed a good deal of time with a concussion, but he and Skinner have taken turns lighting it up as of late. I'm shocked that he didn't get selected. Was he offered a KHL deal over the Summer? Is there some bad blood there or something? 
 
I'm surprised that there isn't more talk about Kunitz. It seemed like a lot of the Twitter talk centered around that. I don't think it's that bad a call. Kunitz may not be a great player, but he's a really good player having a good year with Crosby. I don't really have any problems with it. Glad PK made the team, not that there was any real doubt about that.
 
I haven't had a chance to look at the European teams closely. I was surprised to see Loui included, even though I'm not 100% sold on him being ready for the games. Sweden looks really really good and exciting. I saw that Slovakia included the two young Red Wings, Jurco and Tatar. That's pretty cool. 
 

TSC

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krobe said:
Does anyone know of a breakdown of Olympians by NHL team?  The Google has failed me.
1- Chicago (10) : Toews, Sharp, Keith, Kane, Kruger, Hjalmarsson, Oduya, Rozsival, Handzus, Hossa
1- St. Louis (10) : Pietrangelo, Bouwmeester, Backes, Oshie, Shattenkirk, Tarasenko, Berglund, Steen, Sobotka, Halak
3- Detroit (10) : Howard, Datsyuk, Alfredsson, Zetterberg, Franzen, Ericsson, Kronwall, Gustavsson, Tatar, Jurco
4- Montreal (8) : Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Markov, Emelin, Plekanec, Budaj, Diaz
5- Rangers (7) : Nash, Callahan, Stepan, McDonagh, Hagelin, Lundqvist, Zuccarello
5- Pittsburgh (7) : Crosby, Kunitz, Martin, Orpik, Malkin, Maatta, Jokinen
5- Anaheim (7) : Getzlaf, Perry, Fowler, Silfverberg, Vatanen, Selanne, Hiller
5- Vancouver (7) : Luongo, Hamhuis, Kesler, Sedin, Sedin, Edler, Weber
9- Tampa Bay (7) : Stamkos, Salo, Filppula, Palat, Gudas, Panik, Gudlevskis
10- Los Angeles (6) : Carter, Doughty, Brown, Quick, Voynov, Kopitar
11- Boston (5) : Bergeron, Eriksson, Rask, Krejci, Chara 
11- Philadelphia (5) : Timonen, Voracek, Meszaros, Streit, Raffl
11- Columbus (5) : Bobrovsky, Nikitin, Tyutin, Anisimov, Gaborik
11- Minnesota (5) : Parise, Suter, Granlund, Koivu, Niederreiter
11- Phoenix (5) : Smith, Ekman-Larsson, Kospikoski, Hanzal, Michalek
16- Buffalo (4) : Miller, Tallinder, Enroth, Girgensons 
16- Islanders (4) : Tavares, Visnovsky, Grabner, Vanek
16- New Jersey (4) : Elias, Jagr, Zidlicky, Brunner
16- Winnipeg (4) : Wheeler, Jokinen, Frolik, Pavelec
16- Colorado (4) : Duchene, Stastny, Varlamov, Landeskog
16- San Jose (4) : Marleau, Vlasic, Pavelski, Niemi
22- Toronto (3) : Kessel, Van Riemsdyk, Kulemin
22- Washington (3) : Carlson, Ovechkin, Backstrom
22- Carolina (3) : Faulk, Ruutu, Sekera 
22- Dallas (3) : Benn, Nichushkin, Lehtonen
22- Edmonton (3) : Belov, Hemsky, Marincin
27- Nashville (3) : Weber, Josi, Moser
28- Ottawa (2) : Karlsson, Michalek
28- Florida (2) : Barkov, Kopecky
28- Calgary (2) : Smid, Berra
 

MoGator71

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Was looking for that list too, thanks TSC. Kind of cool that the Flyers' much-maligned d-corps has 3 guys going, and it could be 4 if any of the Swedes can't go, unless they don't consider Grossmann because of the big ice and his wheels. 
 
The 3 guys that stand out for me with Canada are Kunitz, Carter, and Nash. I know they looked for chemistry and Kunitz has that with Crosby obviously, but also Getzlaf and Perry from his Ducks days, but even then I'd take MSL and Giroux over Nash and Carter.
 
Look at some of those rosters...this is gonna be awesome.
 

scotian1

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I would have liked to have seen MSL make it as well but the group that selected Team Canada has spent well over a year on the process witnessing 100's of games. I trust their decision. If the team is not successful then there will be all kinds of second guessing but we just have to wait an see. The games are going to be so close any one of I think 5 teams have a shot at Gold.
 

MoGator71

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I agree, and big picture I can't really see where MSL over Nash means the difference between gold or not. I can't really see second guessing them on any of the picks if things don't work out, unless of course somebody like Subban (if he plays) or Bouwmeester commit a brutal game-deciding penalty or turnover, and then people start killing them for not taking Seabrook. 
 

veritas

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There are already people second guessing Subban, which is crazy to me. He's easily one of their top 6 defenseman and will be even better on the bigger ice.
 

Greg29fan

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veritas said:
There are already people second guessing Subban, which is crazy to me. He's easily one of their top 6 defenseman and will be even better on the bigger ice.
 
Early indications from the Canadian media are PK is the #7 or #8 defenseman and won't be playing regularly, if at all.
 
Keith-Doughty
Bouweester-Pietrangelo
Vlasic-Weber
Hamhuis-Subban