Can a Blake Get Some Love?

TSC

SoSH's Doug Neidermeyer
SoSH Member
Oct 25, 2007
12,340
Between here and everywhere.
What does Swihart have to do to get his own main board thread? 
 
OPS by month:
 
May: .525 (75 PA)
June: .690 (66 PA)
July: .719 (27 PA)
August: .931(66 PA)
September: 1.175 (13 PA)
 
Overall this season he has a .730 OPS.
 
All this and he's only 23 years old.
 
I'll leave his defense abilities to be spoken for by people who are better versed in them than me - but aside from JBJ's emergence - this is one of the best Red Sox stories of the year. A catcher who can hit like he has been - while showing the raw talent to at least be slightly above average with the glove is incredibly valuable.
 

johnnywayback

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 8, 2004
1,422
He's been awesome -- you left out his athleticism, which keeps him from being a liability on the basepaths like a lot of catchers.
 
FWIW: I asked Alex Speier at SaberSeminar whether the Sox have enough information about Vazquez (offensive floor, return to health) and Swihart (offensive ceiling, defense) to decide this off-season which one is the catcher of the future and which one gets traded for pitching.  He agreed it was an important question but had no answers.  Dave Cameron chimed in that we should consider keeping both ("you have to have two catchers").  I was surprised to hear that, and even more surprised when Tom Tippett, sitting in the audience, said, "I liked that guy's answer" (meaning Cameron).  
 

Toe Nash

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2005
5,638
02130
It won't hurt to have two catchers for next year, especially when one is a defensive whiz and neither is making much money. I can't see that as viable for a whole lot longer than that, though.
 

finnVT

superspreadsheeter
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,154
Since the all star break, he's 4th in MLB in OPS among catchers with at least 100 PA (d'Arnaud .971, Castillo .917, Schwarber .908, Swihart .905), and Schwarber's played half his games in the OF.  His .415 OBP in that time leads all catchers.
 
It's really hard to imagine Vazquez displacing him if he continues to hit anywhere near this level and continues to play passable (or better) defense.  I imagine Vazquez starts in AAA to see how his arm is, so I don't think they need to rush into any decisions.  
 

Drek717

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
2,542
I'd say next season Vaz should start out in AAA and get back on track while Swihart and Hanigan share the load at the ML level, so a decision doesn't even need to be considered until after 2016.  If at that time both are still looking like starting quality catchers going a year with the two of them sharing time in 2017 won't be the end of the world.  No need to rush anything on that front.
 
As for Swihart, hard to argue with the results.  The contact and OBP skills are as good as advertised and some nice doubles power is starting to emerge.  If his power matures further as he ages we could see a peak where his bat is too good to waste as a full time catcher and the club will need to consider going the Buster Posey route and getting him time at 1B and/or DH.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,822
Melrose, MA
If Vazquez really is all that on defense (as he showed last year), it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to keep both and get Swihart some exposure at other positions.  Unlike most catchers, he has the athleticism for that.  Maybe he can be a Brock Holt who can catch, for example.  
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,946
  There's more money in being a good catcher than in being a good utility man.  I don't think he'll want to move off of the catcher position.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,822
Melrose, MA
Koufax said:
  There's more money in being a good catcher than in being a good utility man.  I don't think he'll want to move off of the catcher position.
If he's an everyday player who can hit well (not just hit well for a catcher) and catch, he'll get his money.  
 

NDame616

will bailey
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
2,344
Koufax said:
  There's more money in being a good catcher than in being a good utility man.  I don't think he'll want to move off of the catcher position.
 
But there's also a lot more money in being a 1B for a 15 year career, as opposed to flaming out in 6 years because of the rigors of putting him at catcher.
 
If he hit like he has as well as played defense like Vasquez I'd think it's a much tougher decision. But with 1B being one of our "open" positions moving forward, depending on Hanley's adjustment, I wouldn't be completely opposed to him spending some time this off season fielding grounders
 

PrometheusWakefield

Member
SoSH Member
May 25, 2009
10,449
Boston, MA
johnnywayback said:
He's been awesome -- you left out his athleticism, which keeps him from being a liability on the basepaths like a lot of catchers.
 
FWIW: I asked Alex Speier at SaberSeminar whether the Sox have enough information about Vazquez (offensive floor, return to health) and Swihart (offensive ceiling, defense) to decide this off-season which one is the catcher of the future and which one gets traded for pitching.  He agreed it was an important question but had no answers.  Dave Cameron chimed in that we should consider keeping both ("you have to have two catchers").  I was surprised to hear that, and even more surprised when Tom Tippett, sitting in the audience, said, "I liked that guy's answer" (meaning Cameron).  
I think it's a totally valid point. I bet you get more performance out of a catcher playing 3 days a week than a guy playing every day.
 
Could Swihart add some versatility next year? With his athleticism, would it be crazy to think about getting him a few starts at third, in addition to presumably first? 
 
 
Koufax said:
  There's more money in being a good catcher than in being a good utility man.  I don't think he'll want to move off of the catcher position.

 
Does it matter what he wants? I think his priority is going to be to get his name on the lineup card as many days as he can. 
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,822
Melrose, MA
PrometheusWakefield said:
I think it's a totally valid point. 
 
Could Swihart add some versatility next year? With his athleticism, would it be crazy to think about getting him a few starts at third, in addition to presumably first? 
I don't think he'd necessarily be limited to the corners.  2B and the OF are also realistic.  The catch (NPI) would be having him learn new positions when he also has to work on learning all that is needed to play catcher in the majors as well as to work on his right and lefthanded hitting stroke.
 
This is probably not something the Red Sox consider until Vazquez has reestablished himself and shown enough of an all-around game to suggest he is a starting caliber player.  I would guess that he will start out in Pawtucket with Hanigan and Swihart in Boston.
 

The X Man Cometh

New Member
Dec 13, 2013
390
The overall stat line is one thing, but the way he has arrived at it is encouraging. Put up a somewhat pedestrian line in Pawtucket (overall .287/.325/.364). Then, struggle mightily in his first month but grow into the job. Now he's sitting on a .289/.337/.392 slash line and the story is about improvement. Improving relative to his AAA self despite a promotion, improving monthly in the big leagues. Its hard to make statements about what a player can't do when they are on such a consistent upward trajectory. The fact that he is a switch hitter and in theory gets less quality swings in from each side makes it even more impressive.
 

KillerBs

New Member
Nov 16, 2006
944
I just love the idea of Vaz and Swihart splitting catching duties in 2016. If Swihart can hit his way into some extra ABs at another position great but I want him to be a catcher primarily. As noted, nothing wrong with each getting 300 ABs competing with each other and staying fresh. If Swihart is the better hitter clearly you could even periodically PH him for Vazquez when behind and use Vaz as defensive replacement when up.

Not sure where this leaves Hanigan. I like the idea of keeping him around til May at least but if Vazquez looks like old self in March maybe you just the pull the trigger and deal him if you get a decent offer.

If all goes well after 2016 you canvass the trade value for an established young, cheap starting C.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,508
Not here
Toe Nash said:
It won't hurt to have two catchers for next year, especially when one is a defensive whiz and neither is making much money. I can't see that as viable for a whole lot longer than that, though.
Why the fuck wouldn't it be viable? You need two catchers. These two guys are two very good catchers. You don't suddenly get bad because you have two good catchers.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
Obviously you start next year with Swihart and Hanigan your catchers and Vazquez in Pawtucket. If everything goes swimmingly with all three, you perhaps consider moving Hanigan by the deadline. I don't think you move either Swihart or Vazquez, and one of the reasons is that the Sox look from here (minor-league gurus, feel free to correct me) to have a pretty critical shortage of bonafide catching prospect talent anywhere near ML-ready. Now of course, they can always sign or trade for a backup catcher; but whoever that person is, they're pretty likely to be either more expensive than Vazquez, or worse, or both. Which means that the Sox should be in the catbird's seat here. If they get blown away by a trade offer for Vazquez or Swihart, great; but if not, having them both is a lovely luxury with very little downside, other than not being able to get them in the lineup enough, which is the right kind of problem to have (and a problem that could be solved by getting Swihart some reps at 3B/1B/RF).
 

jscola85

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
1,305
No reason to do anything with the catchers this year. If Vazquez comes back and is hitting well in AAA, trade Hanigan during the season - solid catching is always in demand. Then split the PAs between Swihart and Christian. If they both show themselves to be starting caliber catchers, field offers in the 2016/17 off-season. They both have tons of team control and are nowhere near finished products so it behooves the team to wait and see how much further both will develop. I doubt either will be tearing up the clubhouse if they don't get 130 starts behind the plate next year either. The org also has zero depth after Swihart, Hanigan and Vazquez, so trading one means the team is one injury from Sandy Leon part deux.

As for Swihart himself, he has been a revelation. A full off-season to work with the staff and get stronger will only benefit him. He's wiry as hell right now but in his prime you could see 12-15 HRs and heaps of doubles. He's ahead of where anyone could have hoped a HS prospect with no real catching experience could be by age 23.
 

The X Man Cometh

New Member
Dec 13, 2013
390
KillerBs said:
I just love the idea of Vaz and Swihart splitting catching duties in 2016. If Swihart can hit his way into some extra ABs at another position great but I want him to be a catcher primarily. As noted, nothing wrong with each getting 300 ABs competing with each other and staying fresh. If Swihart is the better hitter clearly you could even periodically PH him for Vazquez when behind and use Vaz as defensive replacement when up.

Not sure where this leaves Hanigan. I like the idea of keeping him around til May at least but if Vazquez looks like old self in March maybe you just the pull the trigger and deal him if you get a decent offer.

If all goes well after 2016 you canvass the trade value for an established young, cheap starting C.
 
Sounds a lot like the Victorino "problem" that was discussed ad nauseum before this season started.
 
*If Swihart continues to grow AND Vazquez is healthy and hitting a lick you can trade him (Edit: him being Hanigan).
*If Vazquez is not healthy to start the year you'll need Hanigan.
*If Vazquez or Swihart isn't good you'll need Hanigan. Vazquez could be rusty, and he's someone who you don't know is going to break even at the plate.
 
The scenario being worried about here is an absolute best-case one - no need to get out in front of addressing a logjam that could very well never happen.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
The X Man Cometh said:
 
Sounds a lot like the Victorino "problem" that was discussed ad nauseum before this season started.
 
*If Swihart continues to grow AND Vazquez is healthy and hitting a lick you can trade him.
*If Vazquez is not healthy to start the year you'll need Hanigan.
*If Vazquez or Swihart isn't good you'll need Hanigan. Vazquez could be rusty, and he's someone who you don't know is going to break even at the plate.
 
The scenario being worried about here is an absolute best-case one - no need to get out in front of addressing a logjam that could very well never happen.
Is there any position -- besides pitcher -- more susceptible to injury than catcher?  Intuitively I would think not, but is there any way to search that?
 
Nov 30, 2006
156
NY/NJ
Blake's BABIP coming into today was .386, and he's still K'ing too much, but he was rushed up out of necessity, and it is good to see him establishing a foothold at the highest level.
 

WenZink

New Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,078
Vazquez may need a whole season to come back from TJ surgery.  I haven't watched Wieters closely, this year, but in a small sample his CS% is down 10% from his average the preceding 3 years before surgery.  Unless Vazquez looks great in ST, he'll probably spend a good part of the year in AAA, barring injury.
 
Long term, it makes zero sense to keep both if they both project to be top MLB catchers.  Neither should be a backup catcher, that's why guys like David Ross, Mirabelli, and Bob Montgomery all had MLB careers of 10 years or more.  If Swihart is considered good enough defensively at catcher, then you don't move him to 1st.  He has more value at catcher.  You only move Swihart if you don't think he has the tools or will improve on those tools.  As it stands, either Swihart or a healthy Vazquez could be a key piece in getting a cost controlled ace.  This is not like the 1950s where the Yankees had Yogi Berra and Elston Howard splitting the catching until Yogi got too old to squat.
 

Hank Scorpio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 1, 2013
7,004
Salem, NH
Echoing part of what a few have said here, I see no reason to move either Swihart or Vazquez (or Hanigan, yet at least, for that matter).
 
First off, Vazquez is probably going to need some time at AAA to re-acclimate himself to regular game action. Swihart and Hanigan are your opening day catchers.
 
Secondly, Hanley Ramirez is no sure thing at first base, and neither is Travis Shaw. If Hanley proves to be a disaster defensively, a catching tandem of Vazquez/Hanigan with Swihart at 1B is a pretty damn good insurance policy.
 
Thirdly, Vazquez is a bit of an enigma at the moment, as we don't know if he'll be the same guy when he comes back. As such, Swihart is a much safer bet for 2016, and selling Vazquez right now would not yield anything close to his maximum value.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,508
Not here
WenZink said:
Long term, it makes zero sense to keep both if they both project to be top MLB catchers.  Neither should be a backup catcher, that's why guys like David Ross, Mirabelli, and Bob Montgomery all had MLB careers of 10 years or more.  If Swihart is considered good enough defensively at catcher, then you don't move him to 1st.  He has more value at catcher.  You only move Swihart if you don't think he has the tools or will improve on those tools.
Will you stop it with this nonsense?

Having backups who are good enough to start is a good thing.

There are plenty of reasons to play someone less at catcher that have nothing to do with him being unable to catch and everything to do with his bat.

You can have Vazquez catch for games a week, Swihart catch three, and neither of them have to endure a full season of catching. You can get Swihart in at other positions and you can simultaneously prolong their careers and give yourself deep depth at one of the most important and hard to fill positions in the game.

You don't give a fuck about maximizing value, you give a fuck about winning rings.

We are on the cusp of having the best, most exciting, youngest team any of us has ever seen in any sport. You don't fuck with that for some pinheaded ideal of maximizing value.

We need an ace, and if the right trade works out, that's fine, but we happen to have the biggest collection of to flight pitching available as free agents in pretty much ever. You exhaust those options first.
 

WenZink

New Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,078
Rasputin said:
Will you stop it with this nonsense?

Having backups who are good enough to start is a good thing.

There are plenty of reasons to play someone less at catcher that have nothing to do with him being unable to catch and everything to do with his bat.

You can have Vazquez catch for games a week, Swihart catch three, and neither of them have to endure a full season of catching. You can get Swihart in at other positions and you can simultaneously prolong their careers and give yourself deep depth at one of the most important and hard to fill positions in the game.

You don't give a fuck about maximizing value, you give a fuck about winning rings.

We are on the cusp of having the best, most exciting, youngest team any of us has ever seen in any sport. You don't fuck with that for some pinheaded ideal of maximizing value.

We need an ace, and if the right trade works out, that's fine, but we happen to have the biggest collection of to flight pitching available as free agents in pretty much ever. You exhaust those options first.
 
Sorry, but the very concept that you could have two top catchers sharing a position is my definition of total nonsense.
 
You're just being silly and I wish you'd stop it.  The concept that the Red Sox can carry a miserable conract (Hanley) as well as two other poor contracts (Panda/Porcello) and still go out and spend a fortune on Free Agent pitching and keep a surplus of young talent at one position, is just fantasy world.  
 
And all of it is contingent upon the Red Sox and at least a few of the other teams in the league seeing both (a healthy) Vazquez and Swihart being in the top 25% of catching prospects, while still cost-controlled.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,508
Not here
WenZink said:
 
Sorry, but the very concept that you could have two top catchers sharing a position is my definition of total nonsense.
Then please get your brain fixed.
 
You're just being silly and I wish you'd stop it.  The concept that the Red Sox can carry a miserable conract (Hanley) as well as two other poor contracts (Panda/Porcello) and still go out and spend a fortune on Free Agent pitching and keep a surplus of young talent at one position, is just fantasy world.  
 
And all of it is contingent upon the Red Sox and at least a few of the other teams in the league seeing both (a healthy) Vazquez and Swihart being in the top 25% of catching prospects, while still cost-controlled.
You're assuming those contracts will be bad. They won't all be.

Whether those contracts are good or bad is irrelevant when it comes time to buying a pitcher. Their only relevance is their existence on the roster.

We have the best minor league system in the game. If someone is selling an ace, they're going to want prospects. We can put together an excellent package that doesn't touch our untouchables.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
WenZink said:
Vazquez may need a whole season to come back from TJ surgery.  I haven't watched Wieters closely, this year, but in a small sample his CS% is down 10% from his average the preceding 3 years before surgery.
 
Wieters has thrown out 6/22 would be base stealers in 42 games. If he had thrown out 7 it would be a blip compared to his career; 8 and it would be an improvement. It shows less than zero about the state of his elbow and somehow even less than that as a predictive anecdote about Vazquez in 2016.

A good rule of thumb is that when you're trying to make a point and the words 'but in a' precede the words 'small sample size', you should probably delete and start over with a different stance. Because your argument has lost all merit at that point.
 

WenZink

New Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,078
Rasputin said:
Then please get your brain fixed.
 

You're assuming those contracts will be bad. They won't all be.

Whether those contracts are good or bad is irrelevant when it comes time to buying a pitcher. Their only relevance is their existence on the roster.

We have the best minor league system in the game. If someone is selling an ace, they're going to want prospects. We can put together an excellent package that doesn't touch our untouchables.
 
Those contracts are bad right now.  What counts is the present value.  The contracts could get worse or they could get better.  And the value does matter if you're going to go out and add another bad contract for a pitcher on the FA market.  And while prospects might get an Ace, making big money and nearing the end of his prime (for example King Felix, and the $110/4 yrs left on his deal), they're unlikely to get you a Sonny Gray,who is also cost-controlled.  But if the Sox can use Swihart or Vazquez to get a Sonny Gray, then they should do it.
 
You think the Sox are poised to make a serious run next year, and should go all in.
 
I don't.  I think the Sox are at least a year or two away, but have the surest way to build a 5-6 year run of serious contention.  To do that, they have to have payroll flexibility, and not collect over 30 pitchers.  They'll need payroll flexibility during their "run" to pay high prices for the missing pieces and to offer long-term deals to some of their young talent coming into their arbitration years.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,508
Not here
WenZink said:
 
Those contracts are bad right now.  What counts is the present value.  The contracts could get worse or they could get better.  And the value does matter if you're going to go out and add another bad contract for a pitcher on the FA market.  And while prospects might get an Ace, making big money and nearing the end of his prime (for example King Felix, and the $110/4 yrs left on his deal), they're unlikely to get you a Sonny Gray,who is also cost-controlled.  But if the Sox can use Swihart or Vazquez to get a Sonny Gray, then they should do it.
This makes no sense whatsoever. Prospects won't get Sonny Great but Swihart will. Why?

Also, spoiler alert, You're not getting Sonny Gray!
 
You think the Sox are poised to make a serious run next year, and should go all in.
 
I don't.  I think the Sox are at least a year or two away, but have the surest way to build a 5-6 year run of serious contention.
I literally don't understand how anyone could possibly think this. Are you not watching this team?
 

timlinin8th

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2009
1,521
Rasputin said:
Then please get your brain fixed.
 

You're assuming those contracts will be bad. They won't all be.

Whether those contracts are good or bad is irrelevant when it comes time to buying a pitcher. Their only relevance is their existence on the roster.

We have the best minor league system in the game. If someone is selling an ace, they're going to want prospects. We can put together an excellent package that doesn't touch our untouchables.
What he's trying to say, and I agree with him, is that in a perfect scenario where both Vaz and Swihart are starting catcher material, you can make it work while they are both cheap, but once they become arb eligible they could get expensive in a hurry. Effective roster construction won't allow you to spend big money for a bench / part time player. You're better off playing one more, having a more traditional, cheap backup, and trading the other for a value piece you could use more frequently.

Of course, this only becomes a problem if both are good and start to get expensive. While they're both cheap, you keep both, because its just as likely that one of them doesnt become starter-level, gets injured, etc. You deal with the other scenario should it arise and not sweat it now.
 

WenZink

New Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,078
Papelbon's Poutine said:
Wieters has thrown out 6/22 would be base stealers in 42 games. If he had thrown out 7 it would be a blip compared to his career; 8 and it would be an improvement. It shows less than zero about the state of his elbow and somehow even less than that as a predictive anecdote about Vazquez in 2016.

A good rule of thumb is that when you're trying to make a point and the words 'but in a' precede the words 'small sample size', you should probably delete and start over with a different stance. Because your argument has lost all merit at that point.
 
But when there's nothing else to go on, his ongoing CS% is worth watching, as long as the SS is noted.  The fact is there aren't many comparable examples of young, valued, MLB catchers coming back from TJ surgery, so Wieters is the best we got. (most catchers who've had TJ surgery were either in the minors or those at the end of their careers.)
 
I was throwing it out there in the expectations that someone had actually observed Wieter's recovery more than I.
 
And thanks for the reminder about not using statistics that are preceded with SSS.  I'm sure you spend much of your time rebuking the use of SSS qualifiers that regularly appear on this board.
 

WenZink

New Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,078
Rasputin said:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Prospects won't get Sonny Great but Swihart will. Why?

Also, spoiler alert, You're not getting Sonny Gray!
 

I literally don't understand how anyone could possibly think this. Are you not watching this team?
 
Spoiler Alert:  You're not getting David Price!
 
You've been watching a bunch of young hitters post OPS of 1.000+ for the past month after there is no pressure and they just get to play and it doesn't even matter if they win or lose.
 
This team has a lot of young talent that is cost controlled, but with the exception of Rodriguez, none of them pitch.  And as highly as I think of EdRo, he's just 22, and is still a work in progress.  He might be one of the top 20 pitchers in the league this time next year, but he also might struggle early in the season, and be sent down to Pawtucket to figure something out.  Either way, I'm still high on him, but I feel better about him in 2 or 3 years than I do in 2016.
 
John Henry has long talked about building a team that has a 5 or 6 year run.  Dombrowski knows he has time to build a winner, but when he does he wants a team that can be multi-year contender.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,508
Not here
WenZink said:
 
Spoiler Alert:  You're not getting David Price!
Don't want him. The likelihood of signing a free agent ave is much higher than the likelihood of testing for one.
 
You've been watching a bunch of young hitters post OPS of 1.000+ for the past month after there is no pressure and they just get to play and it doesn't even matter if they win or lose.
So teams aren't trying to get these guys out now?

Nobody thinks Bradley is going to play like Willie Mays next year. He doesn't have to.

A lineup of Betts, Bradley, Castillo, Sandoval, Bogaerts, Pedroia, Ramirez, Ortiz, and Swihart of going to score a ton of runs no matter what order they bat in.
 
This team has a lot of young talent that is cost controlled, but with the exception of Rodriguez, none of them pitch.
Porcello and Kelly are young, or at least they are not old.

But that doesn't matter because you seem to have concluded that Rodriguez is the only pitcher worth mentioning.

Writing off Porcello and Kelly like you do is silly. The fact that they have had bad years doesn't mean they're bad pitchers.

John Henry has long talked about building a team that has a 5 or 6 year run.  Dombrowski knows he has time to build a winner, but when he does he wants a team that can be multi-year contender.
That time is now. This team is almost perfectly situated to be very good for several years. It's missing an ace and a couple bullpen arms and it has the resources to get them.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 30, 2006
10,569
WenZink said:
 
You've been watching a bunch of young hitters post OPS of 1.000+ for the past month after there is no pressure and they just get to play and it doesn't even matter if they win or lose.
 
No, I've been watching young players improve, and watching them do so against the best that other teams can throw at them. And some of those "bests" have been plenty good tests.

One of those guys is Blake, who's shown tremendous improvement after being rushed, to the point that he no longer looks overmatched, and is stinging the ball. Plus, he's 23 and has six more years of club control.

If you're a GM looking to open a 5-6 year window to contend, he's exactly the type of player you keep to build around.
 

Toe Nash

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2005
5,638
02130
Rasputin said:
Why the fuck wouldn't it be viable? You need two catchers. These two guys are two very good catchers. You don't suddenly get bad because you have two good catchers.
Because if they're both good they would both want to be starters and would become unhappy. You're wasting assets and also pissing one of them off. Also as they enter arb years, they become more expensive so you're spending a lot of money on one position. That's why the fuck. But you seem to be particularly argumentative right now so whatever.
 

Drek717

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
2,542
WenZink said:
 
Spoiler Alert:  You're not getting David Price!
 
You've been watching a bunch of young hitters post OPS of 1.000+ for the past month after there is no pressure and they just get to play and it doesn't even matter if they win or lose.
 
This team has a lot of young talent that is cost controlled, but with the exception of Rodriguez, none of them pitch.  And as highly as I think of EdRo, he's just 22, and is still a work in progress.  He might be one of the top 20 pitchers in the league this time next year, but he also might struggle early in the season, and be sent down to Pawtucket to figure something out.  Either way, I'm still high on him, but I feel better about him in 2 or 3 years than I do in 2016.
 
John Henry has long talked about building a team that has a 5 or 6 year run.  Dombrowski knows he has time to build a winner, but when he does he wants a team that can be multi-year contender.
If the Sox want David Price they'll sign David Price.  He's a free agent and he'll take the best contract he's offered.
 
If the Sox want Sonny Gray they'll be dependent on Billy Beane wanting to move Sonny Gray.  Something he has zero motivation to do now when Sonny Gray is still a pre-arb and won't get expensive for several more years.  Trading Gray now versus in two years isn't going to dramatically change the quality of prospects in the return either since in either scenario Beane gets to fleece a club's mL system.
 
Last I checked Henry Owens and Brian Johnson both pitch, and prior to this spring were considered better prospects than Rodriguez, who go the early call because he was already on the 40 man roster.  They have pitching help on the way, just like the positional help we're seeing arrive right now.
 
Which is where those 1.000 OPS months are coming from, FYI.  I can't imagine anyone seriously arguing this is the new normal, but it establishes an upper-bound on what these players are capable of in bursts.  Every player's individual seasons are conglomerations of hot and cold periods.  Bradley, Swihart, Castillo, etc. to putting up >.900 OPS months suggests that their cumulative total at the end of a full season has a high probability of being strong, even when factoring in cold spells and rough patches.
 
Dombrowksi just inherited the best farm system in baseball from basically every ranking system out there, and that is after graduating Bogaerts, Betts, Bradley, Swihart, EdRod, and Vaz within the past year.  The youth movement that builds a 5-6 year contender is already here.  Dombrowski's job is finding the veteran pieces to fill the remaining gaps and finding the correct roles for everyone to play.
 
Case in point, your argument that if both Swihart and Vazquez are starting quality catchers they can't stay on the same club.  Last I checked the Red Sox have no obligation to maximize the value of specific players.  They aren't obligated to share their starting quality players with the other clubs.  Their only real player personnel obligation is to winning games.  So if Swihart is one of the 9 best bats on the club, something that is entirely possible, how doesn't it make sense for the Red Sox to play him at 1B or DH to maximize their value?
 
Vaz is most likely going to AAA at the start of next season to rehab and work on his offense, a still unfinished element of his game.  Hanigan and Swihart very well might lock down the catching duties for all of 2016.  We then move into the Swihart and Vazquez era in 2017, which will most likely be David Ortiz' final season regardless of how he's hitting, as the guy will be 41 at that time.  If Hanley sticks at 1B or doesn't stick at 1B then is a secondary part of the math, as he can either stay at 1B if he's doing well or move to DH if not.  That opens up a position starting in 2018 for Swihart to get ABs, save wear and tear on his body, and get Vaz in behind the plate.
 
Maybe by then Travis or Benintendi are ready and pushing for that same playing time, but that's a problem well down the road and one or both of them flame out.  The road to 2018 is a long one and in the interim the Red Sox have a lot of baseball to play.  There is no point preemptively looking to deal one of these two catchers.  Maybe they get something of value now, but if only one makes it and they trade the wrong one they've created a big hole the farm doesn't have a ready answer for needlessly.  If they both click they'll see far more trade value for a young, cost controlled, established ML regular than they will for even a high pedigree prospect.  Better to keep the in-house options, see how they play out, and make a decision when there truly is a logjam as opposed to maximizing some theoretical value that doesn't matter without willing trade partners who happen to have the right pieces.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,948
Maine
Toe Nash said:
Because if they're both good they would both want to be starters and would become unhappy. You're wasting assets and also pissing one of them off. Also as they enter arb years, they become more expensive so you're spending a lot of money on one position. That's why the fuck. But you seem to be particularly argumentative right now so whatever.
 
Arbitration is still three years away and a lot can happen between now and 2018.  The organization can cross that bridge when they come to it, and there's no way to spin the conundrum of having two young starting caliber catchers on the roster at the same time as anything but a good thing between now and then.
 
If a trade opportunity comes along that hinges on one of them being included and it's a hard deal to pass up, then absolutely Dombrowski should pull the trigger.  But concerns over one or the other being unhappy with playing time or the price tag to keep both becoming untenable in three plus years is the last reason for them to consider trading either of them in the near future.
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
Some points:
 
1 - This board really needs to face the reality that some guys you don't want to see traded are going to end up traded.  
2 - Vaz's value is almost completely tied up in pitch framing which to be perfectly honest is still returning results that often don't pass the smell test.  This is fine but it feels to me like people have glommed onto pitch framing runs saved as being as reliable as batting runs, similarly to the way people just accept small sample defensive statistics at face value.  
3 - That said, the best option is to see if Vaz recaptures his value after recovery before you trade him, so I'm guessing he'll be Red Sox property for a bit.  Until you know what he is going to be you can't really trade Swihart either, unless something super comes up.
4 - I would trade Swihart rather than make him a utility player.  I'm not sure where the obsession with utility players has come from around here (do you guys have fantasy teams?  I'm completely serious here the practical usage of utility players is much less in the real world than in fantasy) but a full-time catcher has more value to every team in the league than a utility player who can catch.  Now, if there is reason to think that Swihart can only really catch 60-70 games per year without wearing down (the latter day Mike Stanley) then ok, it's nice to think he can get at bats elsewhere.
5- In the world where we are moving guys all around to make room for them because we don't want anyone else touching our toys...where will everyone play?  I mean that's the goal of making Swihart a utility guy, right?  So then what happens when we are talking about Bradley, Betts, Castillo...and Benintendi and Margot?  Where will Moncada play?  Devers?  This brings us back to point 1.
6- Ras is argumentative all the fucking time so I'm not sure why anyone would think his contributions in this thread are any different.  It's just who he is.  
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
smastroyin said:
4 - I would trade Swihart rather than make him a utility player.  I'm not sure where the obsession with utility players has come from around here (do you guys have fantasy teams?  I'm completely serious here the practical usage of utility players is much less in the real world than in fantasy) but a full-time catcher has more value to every team in the league than a utility player who can catch.
 
Right, but those aren't the only two options. The phrase "utility player" suggests an extra guy, someone whose value is primarily in his ability to play lots of positions--a Brock Holt, or even a sub-Brock Holt. Nobody's suggesting they see Swihart that way, I don't think. The point is that if he becomes the hitter we're hoping he can be, you don't want him sitting down 30 games a season the way a catcher typically does. If, instead, he can add one or more corner positions to his resume, then you can maximize his offensive contribution while still retaining the value you get from having him share the catching load.
 
The role model here would be a guy like Joe Torre or Gene Tenace--not a utility player, a catcher who keeps his valuable bat in the lineup by playing a couple of other positions (and perhaps eventually transitions off catching to one of those positions). Were those guys really less valuable to their teams because they only caught 100 or so games a year? Perhaps in theory, but in practice wouldn't that depend on what the rest of the roster looks like? If you catch 130 games and in the process take playing time from a really good 2nd catcher and create playing time for a somewhat less good 1B or 3B, is that really maximizing your value?
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
Savin Hillbilly said:
 
Right, but those aren't the only two options. The phrase "utility player" suggests an extra guy, someone whose value is primarily in his ability to play lots of positions--a Brock Holt, or even a sub-Brock Holt. Nobody's suggesting they see Swihart that way, I don't think. The point is that if he becomes the hitter we're hoping he can be, you don't want him sitting down 30 games a season the way a catcher typically does. If, instead, he can add one or more corner positions to his resume, then you can maximize his offensive contribution while still retaining the value you get from having him share the catching load.
 
 
I agree with you...but others are talking about Vazquez essentially also having a full-time role.  Since Vaz's value disappears when he is not catching, that puts Swihart somewhere else 100 games a year or whatever people are envisioning Vazquez play.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,822
Melrose, MA
If Vazquez turns out to be more Jose than Yadier, then he fits as a backup C. It's only if Swihart is an everyday player and Vazquez is more Yadier than Jose that this becomes an issue. Under that scenario, which is a longshot, there's an argument for keeping both and finding a way to keep Swihart in the lineup when he isn't catching.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 30, 2006
10,569
smastroyin said:
Some points:
 
1 - This board really needs to face the reality that some guys you don't want to see traded are going to end up traded.  
2 - Vaz's value is almost completely tied up in pitch framing which to be perfectly honest is still returning results that often don't pass the smell test.  This is fine but it feels to me like people have glommed onto pitch framing runs saved as being as reliable as batting runs, similarly to the way people just accept small sample defensive statistics at face value.  
3 - That said, the best option is to see if Vaz recaptures his value after recovery before you trade him, so I'm guessing he'll be Red Sox property for a bit.  Until you know what he is going to be you can't really trade Swihart either, unless something super comes up.
 
Vazquez looked really really good last season.
 
But lets put that in its proper context: he replaced AJP, who replaced Salty. It's been a good many years since 2000-2004, when the Sox had a superb 2-way catcher in precaptain!Varitek.  And even then, Tek wasn't good at catching Wake's knuckler.
 
If Swihart can become a credible slugging catcher, he's the starter, pure and simple. While it's possible that Vazquez's pitch framing ability may be useful every game, it's more certain that Swihart's bat will be, should he keep developing. It's not the end of the world to have Vazquez play 40-50 games, whether as one starter's caddy plus some other games, or to play slightly more often than the usual backup to keep Swihart's legs fresh. It's really easy to see how the Sox can make excellent use of Vazquez as an excellent backup.
 
And to be honest, while Swihart's not as smooth as Vazquez as a backstop, few are. It's not like he's in the same league of butchery as Salty or AJP. And at age 23 with plus athleticism, it's not as though Swihart can't improve as a receiver, either.
 
 

johnnywayback

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 8, 2004
1,422
See, I am just baffled by the notion that we'd keep both long-term.  If Vazquez is merely as good defensively as he appeared to be last season, it's a waste to have him as your backup catcher.  And even if Swihart is as good offensively as he's been the last couple of months, his bat isn't enough to justify playing him at 1B.
 
If the team had zero needs, then, yes, having both around would be a nice luxury.  Just like having five CF or eight ML-ready starters.
 
But the team has needs.  And the way you address needs is by trading good players, ideally good players who have more value to another team than they do to you.  And having two elite young catchers is sort of the definition of a situation where one is going to have more value to another team than he does to you.
 
I happen to think that, unless Swihart is Buster Posey, Vazquez's defense is the more valuable asset.  And, to me, the question is whether to wait another year to find out if Swihart is Buster Posey (and, as a lesser point, to make sure Vazquez's defense isn't affected by his recovery).  But it's a close call, a 55/45 call in my mind.  What isn't a close call is the idea that, sometime between now and Christmas 2016, one of them is getting traded for something I will be very happy to have.
 

The X Man Cometh

New Member
Dec 13, 2013
390
Eddie Jurak said:
If Vazquez turns out to be more Jose than Yadier, then he fits as a backup C. It's only if Swihart is an everyday player and Vazquez is more Yadier than Jose that this becomes an issue. Under that scenario, which is a longshot, there's an argument for keeping both and finding a way to keep Swihart in the lineup when he isn't catching.
Exactly! What do do about our two studly starting catchers is a whole much ado about nothing. Its unlikely we have two starting catchers outside of Hanigan. Its quite possible we have zero. Keep all 3 and play it by ear.
 

johnnywayback

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 8, 2004
1,422
The X Man Cometh said:
Exactly! What do do about our two studly starting catchers is a whole much ado about nothing. Its unlikely we have two starting catchers outside of Hanigan. Its quite possible we have zero. Keep all 3 and play it by ear.
 
In order to believe this, you'd have to believe some combination of the following:
1) The defensive wizardry we saw from Vazquez last year -- both with our own eyes, through the eyes of scouts, and through the metrics -- is either a mirage or will disappear post-TJ surgery.
2) Vazquez is incapable of offering even the meager amount of offense necessary to be a starter given his defense.
3) Swihart's offensive breakout -- which fits with the expectations scouts have had all along -- is a mirage.
4) Swihart's defense, which I'd agree has so far been good-not-great, is not even good, but rather well below-par.
 
 
None of those seem particularly likely to me.  The Vazquez we've already seen is a starter with room to spare.  The Swihart we're seeing now is a starter with room to spare.  You don't have to project them to do better to call them major league starters.  You just have to project them to not collapse from their current talent levels.
 

jscola85

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
1,305
johnnywayback said:
See, I am just baffled by the notion that we'd keep both long-term.  If Vazquez is merely as good defensively as he appeared to be last season, it's a waste to have him as your backup catcher.  And even if Swihart is as good offensively as he's been the last couple of months, his bat isn't enough to justify playing him at 1B.
 
If the team had zero needs, then, yes, having both around would be a nice luxury.  Just like having five CF or eight ML-ready starters.
 
But the team has needs.  And the way you address needs is by trading good players, ideally good players who have more value to another team than they do to you.  And having two elite young catchers is sort of the definition of a situation where one is going to have more value to another team than he does to you.
 
I happen to think that, unless Swihart is Buster Posey, Vazquez's defense is the more valuable asset.  And, to me, the question is whether to wait another year to find out if Swihart is Buster Posey (and, as a lesser point, to make sure Vazquez's defense isn't affected by his recovery).  But it's a close call, a 55/45 call in my mind.  What isn't a close call is the idea that, sometime between now and Christmas 2016, one of them is getting traded for something I will be very happy to have.
 
Even if Vazquez hits for a .600 OPS?  At what point does Vazquez's bat (and sluggish baserunning) offset his defensive value?  Swihart so far looks like an average to slightly above average hitter.
 
To me, it's flip-flopped.  The understanding of catcher defensive value is so nascent that it's hard for me to place nearly as much value on that as the hitting side.  It's not like Swihart is Piazza behind the plate, but Vazquez could barely hit out of a paper bag in his first test in the majors.  A 70-80 wRC+ even with elite defense does not scream "starter" to me.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
johnnywayback said:
But the team has needs.  And the way you address needs is by trading good players, ideally good players who have more value to another team than they do to you.  And having two elite young catchers is sort of the definition of a situation where one is going to have more value to another team than he does to you.
 
I'd be more inclined to agree with you if our organizational catching depth wasn't so nonexistent--or if there was more reason to be certain that we really have "two elite young catchers", as opposed to two catchers either of whom may or may not turn out to qualify for that adjective. (Vazquez has established elite defense, but with offense bad enough to pull him down to the level of average-at-best overall. There's every reason to hope that offense will improve enough to make him an above-average all-around catcher, but no certainty of it.) Maybe by the time Hanigan's gone, we have more clarity on this. But I wouldn't count on it. It can take a few years for catchers to find their game.
 
 
Buzzkill Pauley said:
 
If Swihart can become a credible slugging catcher, he's the starter, pure and simple. .
 
 
I basically agree with this, but I don't know if we should look for much "slugging" in the usual sense of the word from him. His SoxProspects profile says that if his power really blossoms we might see 15-20 HR from him. So far he looks more like an aggressive, high-BABIP, line-drive type of hitter--a guy who will typically hit at least twice as many doubles as HR, and probably have ISOs in the .140-.170 range.
 

Drek717

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
2,542
smastroyin said:
Some points:
 
1 - This board really needs to face the reality that some guys you don't want to see traded are going to end up traded.  
2 - Vaz's value is almost completely tied up in pitch framing which to be perfectly honest is still returning results that often don't pass the smell test.  This is fine but it feels to me like people have glommed onto pitch framing runs saved as being as reliable as batting runs, similarly to the way people just accept small sample defensive statistics at face value.  
3 - That said, the best option is to see if Vaz recaptures his value after recovery before you trade him, so I'm guessing he'll be Red Sox property for a bit.  Until you know what he is going to be you can't really trade Swihart either, unless something super comes up.
4 - I would trade Swihart rather than make him a utility player.  I'm not sure where the obsession with utility players has come from around here (do you guys have fantasy teams?  I'm completely serious here the practical usage of utility players is much less in the real world than in fantasy) but a full-time catcher has more value to every team in the league than a utility player who can catch.  Now, if there is reason to think that Swihart can only really catch 60-70 games per year without wearing down (the latter day Mike Stanley) then ok, it's nice to think he can get at bats elsewhere.
5- In the world where we are moving guys all around to make room for them because we don't want anyone else touching our toys...where will everyone play?  I mean that's the goal of making Swihart a utility guy, right?  So then what happens when we are talking about Bradley, Betts, Castillo...and Benintendi and Margot?  Where will Moncada play?  Devers?  This brings us back to point 1.
I agree very much with #2, though Vazquez does have an exceptional ability behind the dish that is worth further analysis to be sure.
 
#3 is the reality of the situation and why this isn't a problem until 2017 at the earliest.  Hanigan and Swihart can start in 2016 while Vaz is in AAA getting back on track.  The only thing that could really force their hand by the 2017 pre-season/spring training window is if Swihart takes a big step forward in 2016 while Vaz rakes in AAA and then gets an ML promotion due to an injury to Hanigan or a trade and continues to hit well above expectations.  Otherwise they could even share the job for a year in 2017 and see who wins the competition, with the loser being traded if he still finished well enough to look like a starting quality C for someone else.
 
#4, the idea of making him a utility player stems from all the scouting reports about his great athleticism, but really shouldn't have any merit on his future.  If he is an average or better catcher with a ~.700 bat he's a starting C for someone somewhere.  The only time moving him off C matters is if he's a >.800 OPS guy, and then the goal would be to minimize wear and tear in those games, so 1B or DH.  I'm sure Buster Posey is a good enough athlete to handle a corner OF job but the Giants intentionally play him at 1B for ~30 games a year so they keep his bat in the lineup when his knees need a rest, they don't put him in a position that will demand a lot of running around.  Swihart's move from behind the plate depends entirely on if his bat is "good for a catcher" or "good" period.  I guess there could be some crazy scenario where he rakes, Vaz rakes, and unforeseen circumstances open up a full time job at 3B, 2B, or LF but that is so improbable it's not worth dwelling on.
 
Lastly, #1 and #5 - Guys will need to be traded assuming they all continue to perform, and I'm sure some will be traded this winter in fact.  But the FO can still afford a conservative approach, at least for one more year.  I would expect Margot and one of Johnson/Owens to be moved this off-season myself.  They're of high value and will be looking at ML call-ups in 2016 at positions the Sox already have multiple young options in-house.  Vaz and Swihart however shouldn't yet be on the block because Swihart has all-star potential and Vaz's value is at a low point due to the injury.
 

czar

fanboy
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
4,317
Ann Arbor
I think some folks are vastly overestimating the trade value of Vazquez when using the argument "it is a value-killing proposition to keep two major league starting C's on the roster." As if trading Vazquez is going to create a significant valuation elsewhere on a roster already filled with A) big contracts and B) young, cost-controlled producers who are locked into jobs.
 
This may be a better question for next offseason, when (if?) both catchers remain healthy throughout 2016. But count me as totally on-board with keeping both around next year either in a 3/2 time-split or a MLB/AAA split (with Hanigan still aboard), especially while both cost $1m combined. Especially since Vazquez has not proven himself to have anything better than a 70 wRC+ bat and Swihart has been riding the coattails of a nearly .400 BABIP in 2015. Regress Swihart's bat a bit and assume CV doesn't improve offensively and both C's seem to project to like 2.0 fWAR (assuming CV's defense was "in the ballpark" w/r/t valuation).
 
The above valuation argument aside, smastroyin made some good points.
 

WenZink

New Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,078
czar said:
I think some folks are vastly overestimating the trade value of Vazquez when using the argument "it is a value-killing proposition to keep two major league starting C's on the roster." As if trading Vazquez is going to create a significant valuation elsewhere on a roster already filled with A) big contracts and B) young, cost-controlled producers who are locked into jobs.
 
This may be a better question for next offseason, when (if?) both catchers remain healthy throughout 2016. But count me as totally on-board with keeping both around next year either in a 3/2 time-split or a MLB/AAA split (with Hanigan still aboard), especially while both cost $1m combined. Especially since Vazquez has not proven himself to have anything better than a 70 wRC+ bat and Swihart has been riding the coattails of a nearly .400 BABIP in 2015. Regress Swihart's bat a bit and assume CV doesn't improve offensively and both C's seem to project to like 2.0 fWAR (assuming CV's defense was "in the ballpark" w/r/t valuation).
 
The above valuation argument aside, smastroyin made some good points.
 
The value of pitch framing varies from team to team.  I gather Farrell and Cherington were quite high on it, while old-school GMs and managers were skeptical of the outrageous claims.  (A healthy Vazquez, based on his 55 game sample from 2014, would be a 7.5 WAR player if expanded to a full season.)  I'm guessing that while Dombrowski is open to new ideas, he's not on the leading edge of pitch-framing advocates.  On the other hand, Mike Scioscia, manager and GM-de facto of the Angels, is very high on catchers that are excellent pitch-framers.  
 
Situations where one player is valued much higher by another organization do exist, and they are the basis of trades.