Black Monday watch
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
Vrabel to Foxboro in my mind is going to be a done deal. Too much smoke around it right now. He’s a leader of men with a track record as a HC. Mayo unfortunately doesn’t have the HC experience.
I think it was a case of....
If you fight with one GM, maybe it's the GM, you fight with every GM.... maybe you're the asshole. And assholes who aren't winning don't keep their jobs long.
I don't think so. If it was a done deal, they wouldn't have fired him. They would have tried to get some compensation I would think.
If Vrabel comes in, who is the GM? Don't you kinda want to hire the GM first, then the coach? Or are we giving Vrabel the whole thing?
Great point - makes a lot of sense when you put it that way.
Wrong thread for this, but I really hope this doesn't happen. I have nothing against Vrabel, but you can't make a big show about how much you value Mayo (as Kraft did last season) and then not hand him the reins when the time comes.
Things change. A 4-13 season changes everything. Sorry Mayo but I’d rather the experienced HC.
Well, you can, because no one probably expected Mike Vrabel leaving the Titans at the exact same time as Kraft and Belichick deciding to separate.
Mayo will get an interview and maybe Vrabel would want to keep him on as full time DC.
Vrabel is a significantly stronger head coaching candidate than Mayo, regardless of what Kraft has said or done in the past.
Same. It's at least partly my pro Bill bias, but if you're going to rip the bandaid off, rip it off. I guess Vrabel does that more than Mayo does, but while I think the former is a good coach I also don't look at the recent Titans teams as anything that would excite me much (regardless of the Bill context).
Aside from a new voice, what does Vrabel bring to the table? After some initial success, his tenure in Tennessee was characterized by poor staff and roster decisions as well as front office discord. Seriously, someone sell me on him besides the fact that he (a) won a championship as a Patriot and (b) the Krafts really seem to like him. Those aren't good reasons to hire the guy as head coach imo.
Edit: I don't know what "leader of men" means but I will say that for professional sports teams, "rah-rah" coaching seems to yield diminishing returns over time.
Edit: I don't know what "leader of men" means but I will say that for professional sports teams, "rah-rah" coaching seems to yield diminishing returns over time.
What were the reasons behind hiring Bill in 2000 when everyone was telling Kraft not to? Hell Vrabel had better success in his first coaching stint than BB did.
BB was highly regarded for his coaching knowledge at the time IIRC. The only question was whether he could he could be a successful head coach given his stint in Cleveland. Vrabel seems to have look and feel of "Football Guy" down but his coaching bonafides pale in comparison to BB when he was hired by the Patriots.
I like Vrabel
First choice is BB continuing on with a lot of help at GM but Vrabel would be my choice way ahead of Mayo or Steve or Josh
Too bad Vrabel is overqualified for something like just LB coach. But what about Lb coach AND assistant head coach with hc in waiting promise by Jonathan and RK?
First choice is BB continuing on with a lot of help at GM but Vrabel would be my choice way ahead of Mayo or Steve or Josh
Too bad Vrabel is overqualified for something like just LB coach. But what about Lb coach AND assistant head coach with hc in waiting promise by Jonathan and RK?
Little fix in there....
"The next guy" almost never works out. A million things change. Hell Mayo should be accepting interviews today if he's offered them.
He’s probably gonna get another HC job this cycle, he’s not coming here to be an assistant with a succession plan.
Bill Belichick was the most well respected schematic and gameplanning DC in the NFL for a long period of time both before and after his Cleveland stint. Much like how hiring a top offensive playcaller is done with the expectation that will continue and his scheming and gameplanning will continue in the HC role. Belichick's first head coaching job wasn't great (though he took the Browns to and won a playoff game, and it took 25 years until they hired Stefanski for a coach to win another playoff game for them, and Stefanski is the first non-interim coach with a better win% in CLE since Bill), but there is more to coaching success than just HC jobs. Bill was hired on the back of his exceptional work as an assistant, like many coaches are.
Honestly, I don't think Vrabel is a bad coach, I just don't get why he'd be the pick out of all the options. He's really struggled with offense once Smith left (much like Bill without Josh), he's had consistent conflict with his front offices. He's an okay coach, but why him over Harbaugh (far more success) or a offensive scheme coach to pair with the young QB? I don't see Vrabel as the guy you get to build, he;s the guy a team like the Chargers gets to put the polish on and motivate guys.
I think we're all guessing at who might be a successful coach going forward. But Vrabel has that square jaw and "duh-football" demeanor that will insulate him from football-take-complex criticism for awhile. The Kraft-in-charge *might* appreciate that.
How much head coaching experience did Vrabel have before he was hired as head coach by the team that just fired him?
I've seen it said elsewhere (I think Lazar mentions it) but bringing in someone like Vrabel might lead to some OC churn. Say you get some nice young hotshot OC for your nice young hotshot QB, and he produces. Then, he's gone and the young QB has a new OC.
I'd rather try someone like Ben Johnson, pair him with Williams, Maye, or Daniels, and see what happens.
I'd rather try someone like Ben Johnson, pair him with Williams, Maye, or Daniels, and see what happens.
I’m not so sure. The fact that Bill hasn’t been fired tells me there’s a better than 50/50 chances he’s staying. My guess is they bring in someone to help him.
Josh chose to head to Vegas rather than waiting a few more years for BB to leave. Mayo has been (at least implicitly) designated as BB's successor and is still on the staff.
BTW -- Googling "Mayo Kraft" in search of old news about what Bob has said about Jerod doesn't work.
I don't really know what he brings to the table, and I'm not sure it's really easy to say from the outside.
But he looks like a head coach, and as dumb as that is, I think that stuff still kind of matters. The scene around the scouts table at Moneyball probably still holds some current relevance -- maybe more for the NFL than MLB. Sad but true.
I'm all for keeping BB. But if they dont, this is what I would like to see. I think that if they're really moving on from the dynasty-builder, they should really move on.
It's that his head consists of several right angles.
Vrabel will be part of BB's succession plan in Foxboro. BB coaches in 2024 with input and decisions from Vrabel and Josh on the offensive side of the ball. One of them takes over for BB in 2025. I'm convinced of this.
I think he established a baseline of competency in his first HC job and if you hire him for his second you are banking on growth and professional development from that experience, assuming you assess that he doesn't have some kind of character or personality flaws that make that less likely.
Didn't work with McDaniels. Might work with Vrabel. I don't think many of these youngish head coaches are finished products.
Ben Johnson has worked with three teams in an offensive capacity in his career.
BC was 19-19 with him in the offensive mix.
Miami and Detroit's record with him in the offensive mix is 81-97-1
I'll never understand why people feel he is the guy over someone like Josh.
Vrabel as HC with Josh as OC (I doubt he gets another crack at HC so there should be stability for new QB) and Steve (if he doesn't go with dad) or Mayo as DC. I could be sold on that, depending on who the GM would be.
I'll never understand why some would like Ben Johnson, who has never been an NFL head coach, over Jerod Mayo, who has never been a head coach.
To me this feels like one of those situations where Football Guy (we have seen this before with plenty of other teams) comes in, rah-rahs things for a few seasons but the overall program starts to suffer. Whether it was his fault or not, this kind of happened in Tennessee during Vrabel's term as HC. At this point, he feels like a known entity in terms of what he is capable of - maybe that's not accurate or fair.
From my perspective, if the Patriots are moving on from BB, they should go after the most talented HC candidates out there. What sort of innovations or special sauce does Vrabel bring to the table? I would much rather the team try and fail with a higher upside candidate than someone who can look the part for a few seasons.
Oh, as head coach? I thought people were thinking QB Coach/OC for Johnson. Which, still, makes no sense to me.
Ben Johnson is the OC for one of the hottest offenses in the league (with arguably a tier 2 QB and a good but not otherworldly cast of WR). The closest comparison in recent seasons is Mike McDaniel, and I think we would largely agree that experiment has been a success. I can see why some would be skeptical of canning Bill for Johnson, but I don't find it hard to see why he's the A-list candidate this coaching cycle.
For a defensive guru kinda coach, Vrabels' defenses have kind of stunk.
I feel like there's limited upside with a Vrabel, and if I were the Pats I'd be more interested in an up & comer type. Yes, higher chance of flaming out but also higher chance of a longer-term stud.
I feel like there's limited upside with a Vrabel, and if I were the Pats I'd be more interested in an up & comer type. Yes, higher chance of flaming out but also higher chance of a longer-term stud.
In fairness to Josh, the Raiders gave him $60,000,000 reasons to not wait for the Pats job. And according to Schefter, they are on the hook and paying him all of it.
He's been in charge of the offense for 2 years, his offense finished top 5 in the NFL both years with Jared Goff as his QB. Now, maybe that's not enough for you, but that is the reason people are interested, I don't think the overall record of a team he was the assistant WRs coach for is going to be relevant to them.
He my crash out, but it's the McVay model. You find a scheme OC who has had success and hand him the keys, much like BB was finding a scheme/gameplan DC and handing him the keys. It's that you think the guy has talent, is a good scheme guy and can learn the rest.
Sometimes it works (BB, McVay, Shannahan) sometimes it doesn't (McDaniel, Arthur Smith, etc.)
Are we declaring McDaniel a failure now? Because if he went on the market I would want the Patriots to talk with him as soon as possible. Is that crazy?
You'll need to convince Vrabel. I can't imagine a scenario where he has HC options (which is very likely to be the case even outside of NE), and he turns it down. This just doesn't happen. Too much can change, promises get broken... he'll need to take the bird in the hand. (Unless it's Carolina or bust, in which case he tells Tepper to stuff it and may take this route.)
Got it - without even looking I would have been shocked if you weren't a fan of MM. I completely agree with the spirit of your post though - if they are looking to move on, they should be looking for the next great HC. There is no reason not to do this - no veteran team that is a player or coach away from contention - no legacy issues. Just hire the most talented people you can find and let them try to build something.
Maybe this is wrong but Vrabel's ceiling feels fairly low.