Best QB in franchise history?

[BaseballJones]

Not just talking about NE (duh), but the entire league. Here's my answer...

NE - Tom Brady, obviously
Buf - Jim Kelly (but Josh Allen may surpass him)
Mia - Dan Marino
NYJ - Joe Namath
Pit - Terry Bradshaw (Roethlisberger and his 2 SB titles gets second place)
Bal - Joe Flacco (tough one because Lamar Jackson has an MVP and Flacco doesn't, but Flacco's had a long NFL career and a SB title)
Cin - Kenny Anderson (ahead of Boomer)
Cle - Otto Graham
Ind - Peyton Manning (Unitas obviously right there too)
Jax - Mark Brunell
Ten - Warren Moon
Hou - Matt Schaub (I just can't put Watson in there)
KC - Patrick Mahomes (he's already surpassed Len Dawson, IMO)
Den - John Elway (though man, Peyton deserves some credit here, but I'll give Elway the nod)
LV - Ken Stabler
LAC - Dan Fouts
NYG - Eli Manning? (2 SB titles...maybe YA Tittle should be there)
Dal - Roger Staubach (Aikman a close second)
Phi - Donovan McNabb (Cunningham a close second and Jaworski in the mix)
Was - Sammy Baugh (Jurgenson and Theismann in the conversation)
Chi - Sid Luckman
Min - Fran Tarkenton
Det - Bobby Layne
GB - Aaron Rodgers (nice to have Favre and Starr on the bench)
TB - Tom Brady (yes, even in so short a time)
NO - Drew Brees
Car - Cam Newton
Atl - Matt Ryan
Sea - Russell Wilson
SF - Joe Montana
LAR - Kurt Warner
Ari - Kurt Warner

Brady and Warner appear at the top for 2 teams, though Peyton Manning could have as well if not for John Elway. Some teams have had an embarrassment of riches in the QB department (GB, Indy with Peyton, Unitas, and Luck, Dallas with Staubach, Aikman, and Romo, and even NE with Brady, Bledsoe, and Grogan). Others have had pretty bare cupboards for their entire franchise history.

 

[IdiotKicker]

I think I would go Rivers over Fouts just because of the longevity of his peak, and neither made a SB so there's nothing skewing either direction there.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

Tom Brady

 

[loshjott]

Elway by just a nod over Peyton in Denver? I'd expect that maybe on a Colts site.

 

[BaseballJones]

I think I would go Rivers over Fouts just because of the longevity of his peak, and neither made a SB so there's nothing skewing either direction there.

Yeah I went with Fouts because he's in the HOF, and Rivers may or may not get there. Herbert may surpass both of them when all is said and done.

 

[BaseballJones]

Elway by just a nod over Peyton in Denver? I'd expect that maybe on a Colts site.

Ha, I totally get that.

Peyton in Denver (4 seasons):
66.5%, 17,112 yds, 140 td, 53 int, 101.7 rating, 2 all-pro, 3 pro bowl, 1 MVP, 2 SB appearances, 1 SB title

Elway in Denver (16 seasons):
56.9%, 51,475 yds, 300 td, 226 int, 79.9 rating, 0 all-pro, 9 pro bowl, 1 MVP, 5 SB appearances, 2 SB titles

Elway wins by bulk, which is why I have him as Denver's top QB ever. But Manning wins in quality by a long shot. But yes, it's Elway.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Elway by just a nod over Peyton in Denver? I'd expect that maybe on a Colts site.

No Kidding
Elway was legit GOAT candidate for years, Manning was pretty good, then limped across the finish line.

 

[Devizier]

PIT is Roethlisberger, sadly.

You could argue for Young in SF but that would be definitely a controversial take.
Probably a toss-up with Rivers and Fouts in SD/LAC.

The interesting picks are for the teams without a great QB history.

Jim Hart played 199 games and made four pro bowls for the (STL) Cardinals. He's probably the guy over end-of-career Warner.
Sid Luckman is definitely your Bear, but (OOF) retired in 1950.
Same goes for Otto Graham and the Browns (1955, though).
Matt Stafford probably gets the nod for Detroit, despite only appearing in one pro bowl.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Which of these do we think is the most sad?
Eliminating the "new" teams, I think our sad list is....
Bears- Sid Luckman was great in his era.... sadly that era ended before the Korean War and nobody else has come close
Jets- Joe Namath was.... not actually that good? And nobody has come close in 50+ years.
Lions- oof, they had Stafford lately who was pretty good but otherwise Bearsy
Browns- Factory of Sadness

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

Which of these do we think is the most sad?
Eliminating the "new" teams, I think our sad list is....
Bears- Sid Luckman was great in his era.... sadly that era ended before the Korean War and nobody else has come close
Jets- Joe Namath was.... not actually that good? And nobody has come close in 50+ years.
Lions- oof, they had Stafford lately who was pretty good but otherwise Bearsy
Browns- Factory of Sadness

Lions and Browns. Only two original NFL teams to never play in a Super Bowl. Not surprising when considering their best QB play was 70 years ago.

 

[BaseballJones]

No Kidding
Elway was legit GOAT candidate for years, Manning was pretty good, then limped across the finish line.

Elway was never a GOAT candidate. He was great, but not GOAT great. He took some good (not great) Bronco teams to the Super Bowl (which was no small achievement, even in a time when the AFC was weak...still...impressive), whereupon he promptly got thrashed by the NFC champ du jour. Then, when he got Terrell Davis and a great defense he won two SBs at the end.

1997 stats: 55.8%, 3,635 yds, 27 td, 11 int, 87.5 rating
1998 stats: 59.0%, 2,806 yds, 22 td, 10 int, 93.0 rating

Not "limping" at the end, but not exactly carrying the team either. Here's his 5 SB performances:

vs NYG (L, 39-20): 22-37 (59.5%), 304 yds, 1 td, 1 int, 83.6 rating
vs Was (L, 42-10): 14-38 (36.8%), 257 yds, 1 td, 3 int, 36.8 rating
vs SF (L, 55-10): 10-26 (38.5%), 108 yds, 0 td, 2 int, 19.4 rating
vs GB (W, 31-24): 12-22 (54.6%), 123 yds, 0 td, 1 int, 51.9 rating
vs Atl (W, 34-19): 18-29 (62.1%), 336 yds, 1 td, 1 int, 99.2 rating

I mean...yes, great that he won two, and the last SB he played well. But otherwise....holy smokes that's some pretty awful performances in the Super Bowl. We all know that Peyton was carried in his last SB by the Bronco defense as well, so he doesn't get much (if any) credit there either. But Elway's career SB stat line is:

76-152 (50.0%), 1,128 yds, 3 td, 8 int, 59.2 rating

He's still the greatest QB in Bronco history, but he's not even close to GOAT status.

 

[Ale Xander]

Otto Graham was on the franchise that became the Baltimore Ravens, no?

for Cleveland Browns (modern), maybe Mayfield?
hm: Tim Couch?

 

[BaseballJones]

Otto Graham was on the franchise that became the Baltimore Ravens, no?

for Cleveland Browns (modern), maybe Mayfield?
hm: Tim Couch?

Yes, good catch. Totally forgot about that. LOL

 

[Jimbodandy]

Elway was never a GOAT candidate. He was great, but not GOAT great. He took some good (not great) Bronco teams to the Super Bowl (which was no small achievement, even in a time when the AFC was weak...still...impressive), whereupon he promptly got thrashed by the NFC champ du jour. Then, when he got Terrell Davis and a great defense he won two SBs at the end.

1997 stats: 55.8%, 3,635 yds, 27 td, 11 int, 87.5 rating
1998 stats: 59.0%, 2,806 yds, 22 td, 10 int, 93.0 rating

Not "limping" at the end, but not exactly carrying the team either. Here's his 5 SB performances:

vs NYG (L, 39-20): 22-37 (59.5%), 304 yds, 1 td, 1 int, 83.6 rating
vs Was (L, 42-10): 14-38 (36.8%), 257 yds, 1 td, 3 int, 36.8 rating
vs SF (L, 55-10): 10-26 (38.5%), 108 yds, 0 td, 2 int, 19.4 rating
vs GB (W, 31-24): 12-22 (54.6%), 123 yds, 0 td, 1 int, 51.9 rating
vs Atl (W, 34-19): 18-29 (62.1%), 336 yds, 1 td, 1 int, 99.2 rating

I mean...yes, great that he won two, and the last SB he played well. But otherwise....holy smokes that's some pretty awful performances in the Super Bowl. We all know that Peyton was carried in his last SB by the Bronco defense as well, so he doesn't get much (if any) credit there either. But Elway's career SB stat line is:

76-152 (50.0%), 1,128 yds, 3 td, 8 int, 59.2 rating

He's still the greatest QB in Bronco history, but he's not even close to GOAT status.

Elway always had a pretty good PR machine behind him culturally, people constantly pimping him as "in the conversation" because of some very good numbers and two rings. And he has an MVP and three other top-5 MVP finishes.

I never really got it either, but he has a pretty interesting combination of team success and stats that a lot of folks don't have (Marino has the stats, Bradshaw has the rings). That's where some of that vibe came from. Remember all of the "Kareem for GOAT" talk a few years ago that has since died down? Elway had that too for a while, until Brady unilaterally ended the debate.

 

[Ale Xander]

Disagreements:

Dallas: Aikman
Philly: Cunningham
Chargers: Philip Rivers
Tampa Bay: Trent Dilfer
KC: Joe Montana (better voice)
Bengals: Boomer Esiason
Giants: Phil Simms

 

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

For NYG, I'd give the nod to Simms over Eli.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Otto Graham was on the franchise that became the Baltimore Ravens, no?

for Cleveland Browns (modern), maybe Mayfield?
hm: Tim Couch?

Technically the Ravens were a new team, and the Browns records/history stay in CLE until the team was re-instated in 1999

 

[Ralphwiggum]

You can't really meaningfully compare the raw numbers of what Manning did in Denver in the 2010's vs. what Elway did in Denver in the 80s and 90s. It's a completely different game. I hate John Elway but its him in Denver and its really not that close.

 

[BaseballJones]

You can't really meaningfully compare the raw numbers of what Manning did in Denver in the 2010's vs. what Elway did in Denver in the 80s and 90s. It's a completely different game. I hate John Elway but its him in Denver and its really not that close.

Right. I mean, nobody is disagreeing that it's Elway in Denver. I just think that Peyton is an inner circle all time great, and he had four great years in Denver (the one bad year he had still resulted in a SB win). So it's amazing that a guy like that is relegated to second place.

My actual quote on Denver from the OP, because I feel like people are misconstruing my thoughts:

"Den - John Elway (though man, Peyton deserves some credit here, but I'll give Elway the nod)"

Peyton DOES deserve some credit because he had four great years in Denver and is an all-timer. But Elway does get the nod. If others think that comment is somehow doing Elway some sort of injustice, so be it. It's not how I mean it, but whatever.

 

[bankshot1]

NY Football Giants I'm leaning Fran Tarkenton then Simms

 

[reggiecleveland]

You can't really meaningfully compare the raw numbers of what Manning did in Denver in the 2010's vs. what Elway did in Denver in the 80s and 90s. It's a completely different game. I hate John Elway but its him in Denver and its really not that close.

No kidding.
NFL pundits, coaches, players, always rank him high.
Also citing his stats from 5 games is something expect from Jordan fans on twitter pointing out how bad 19 year old Lebron was in the playoffs. The imbalance between NFC and AFC was ridiculous then. The NFC dominance later, in similarly twisted logic was used to show how great Montana was compared to Brady because he never lost in the SB.


Now please go ahead and tell me why you are so much smarter than these guys. I mean Tony Dungy? He was wrong about (insert dumb thing he said) so I am right about Elway and he is wrong.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20096209/nfl-coaches-execs-rank-best-quarterbacks-modern-era-2017

 

[lexrageorge]

I think Elway's career is being underrated by some. He was one of the best QB's of his era; during the time, he was often ranked up there with Marino and Montana as the league's best. He was essentially a game manager when he won his 2 Super Bowls to close out his career, but so was Peyton Manning when he won his final SB for Denver. Manning did have 2.5 great seasons for Denver, but Elway was consistently very good to excellent for most of his 16 years in Denver.

I can see an argument for Phil Simms over Eli.

Regarding the Bears, if we want to limit ourselves to the Super Bowl era, would we pick Jim McMahon, who likely would have had a much better career had he been able to stay healthy and not get assaulted by Charles Martin (who really should have been suspended for multiple seasons, but I digress)? Or Jay Cutler, who was decent for a number of really bad Bears teams?

 

[RSN Diaspora]

In a horrible parallel universe, some other team snatches Brady up before the Pats draft him. In that case, who winds up on this list, Grogan? Maybe Bledsoe or Parilli?

 

[Ale Xander]

In a horrible parallel universe, some other team snatches Brady up before the Pats draft him. In that case, who winds up on this list, Grogan? Maybe Bledsoe or Parilli?

Danny Amendola 75% completion percentage , 50% touchdown percentage, only a 156 QBR
Or
Julian Edelman 100% completion percentage perfect QBR

zero int for both

 

[reggiecleveland]

Lions and Browns. Only two original NFL teams to never play in a Super Bowl. Not surprising when considering their best QB play was 70 years ago.

Yeah it's amazing. I got into reading about NFL history a bit, and both franchises chased away some innovative coaches early in their careers. The Browns are what I think would have happened if Vince Lombardi bought a team and lived to be 90.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Disagreements:

KC: Joe Montana (better voice)

Wasn’t there a joke in the KC Joe Montana days along the lines of: “What’s the difference between a dollar bill and Joe Montana? A dollar bill will give you 4 quarters”

 

[steveluck7]

Tampa Bay is Brady for sure. Amazing that he’s the goat for 2 franchises

 

[BaseballJones]

Tampa Bay is Brady for sure. Amazing that he’s the goat for 2 franchises

Kurt Warner is too, IMO.

 

[Bunt4aTriple]

Moon's numbers are better (except TD-INT ratio), but McNair does have an MVP and was 1 yard away from a Super Bowl victory.

 

[BusRaker]

Danny Amendola 75% completion percentage , 50% touchdown percentage, only a 156 QBR
Or
Julian Edelman 100% completion percentage perfect QBR

zero int for both

Hands down Jacobi is the second best after Brady until (if) he tosses an incompletion

Jacobi is 4 for 4, 2 TD 32 AY/A
Edelman 6 for 6, only 1 TD, 24.7 AY/A
Amendola 1 for 1 0 TD 36.0 AY/A

 

[page 2 protege]

Can't my Bears just be "TBD"?

 

[richgedman'sghost]

Lions and Browns. Only two original NFL teams to never play in a Super Bowl. Not surprising when considering their best QB play was 70 years ago.
[/QUOTE
Here are my thoughts for whatever it matters (probably not much ) LOL
The Browns had a pretty good QB named Bernie Kosar. Not as good as Graham adjusting for eras but not chopped liver either.
The Titans/Oliers had Steve McNair who took the team to the Super Bowl where they lost to Warner and the Rams by a yard.
The Bears had Jim McMahon who took the Bears to the Super Bowl. But other than him, their QB play hasn't been very good.
The Jets...I guess Vinny T was good for a few years, or Chad Pennington. Even Ken O Brien had a couple of good years in the 1980s but Namath is still probably the best.
For the Giants I think Phil Simms deserves some love. He won the Super Bowl in 86 and had the team at 10 and 1 in 1990 before getting injured in a game against Buffalo.

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

Yeah it's amazing. I got into reading about NFL history a bit, and both franchises chased away some innovative coaches early in their careers. The Browns are what I think would have happened if Vince Lombardi bought a team and lived to be 90.

Anyone looking to read about the NFL in the 1950's, this is a pretty good book

View: https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Age-Pro-Football-1950s/dp/0878337512


Per this thread, quite a bit in there about Bobby Layne, Otto Graham, and Johnny Unitas.

 

[glennhoffmania]

I still don't agree that whether a team wins a SB should be a determining factor in these kind of discussions.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I still don't agree that whether a team wins a SB should be a determining factor in these kind of discussions.

I don't think that winning a SB is the determining factor. But I think that team record, how often you get to the playoffs, etc. matters. Not just passing numbers.

You can't be in the GOAT conversation if you QBd a .500 team for most of your career. Dan Marino went 147-93 despite no rings. That counts for something. Three top-3 MVP finishes, etc.

It's kind of my point about Elway is that his and Marino's numbers are fairly comparable overall and their playoff resumes look pretty similar before Terrell Davis showed up. Marino's numbers alone are better.

 

[glennhoffmania]

I don't think that winning a SB is the determining factor. But I think that team record, how often you get to the playoffs, etc. matters. Not just passing numbers.

You can't be in the GOAT conversation if you QBd a .500 team for most of your career. Dan Marino went 147-93 despite no rings. That counts for something. Three top-3 MVP finishes, etc.

It's kind of my point about Elway is that his and Marino's numbers are fairly comparable overall and their playoff resumes look pretty similar before Terrell Davis showed up. Marino's numbers alone are better.

I definitely agree that overall record and playoff appearances should be considered. The QB is obviously the most important position and has the most influence over the outcome of a game. But some people put so much emphasis on how many rings a QB won, and that's what I take issue with. Your Elway point is perfect.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

I loved the Eagles as a kid. If Cunningham were playing today, what might be a comp? Could he be a skinnier Josh Allen? Taller Lamar Jackson?

 

[mikeot]

Peyton over Johnny U? Uh,no.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I definitely agree that overall record and playoff appearances should be considered. The QB is obviously the most important position and has the most influence over the outcome of a game. But some people put so much emphasis on how many rings a QB won, and that's what I take issue with. Your Elway point is perfect.

Cheers. Rings are without question overvalued, context-independent.

Jim Kelly had some amazing years (late start to NFL), led the league a couple of times in categories (touchdowns, completion percentage), great QB record, and has two top-5 MVP finishes and a 9-8 playoff record. Nobody talks about him. Way better QB than Joe Namath. But of course, Joe was iconic and won a groundbreaking super bowl.

Always tough balancing rings, wins, counting stats, and rate stats, nevermind across eras where guys didn't throw like they do now and could be almost decapitated without a flag.

 

[DanoooME]

In a horrible parallel universe, some other team snatches Brady up before the Pats draft him. In that case, who winds up on this list, Grogan? Maybe Bledsoe or Parilli?

This gets to the point of depth at QB. Actually the Pats are probably better off than most teams with their top 3/top 5 of all time. There's 4 decent names right there.

Then you look at a team like the Jets (sorry Luckiestman, picked them because they are AFL originals as well) - Namath, Ken O'Brien, Richard Todd.

And then the Seahawks, who do have about 16 less years than the AFL teams - Russell Wilson, Matt Hasselbeck, Dave Krieg (yeesh). Then it drops way off after Zorn (4) to Rick Mirer. Rick Mirer might be the worst top 5 QB in any franchise's history.

 

[Rudy's Curve]

Disagreements:

Dallas: Aikman
Philly: Cunningham
Chargers: Philip Rivers
Tampa Bay: Trent Dilfer
KC: Joe Montana (better voice)
Bengals: Boomer Esiason
Giants: Phil Simms

Ken Anderson has an MVP and SB appearance just like Boomer and started 49 more games with the Bengals. He's 45th all time in AV. Everyone ahead of him is either in the HOF or not eligible yet except Jim Marshall. He's the Bengals' best QB.

 

[snowmanny]

Agree with Devizier that Pittsburgh is Roethlisberger. Those Steel Curtain teams were loaded everywhere.

 

[Rudy's Curve]

I'm not so sure about Ben over Bradshaw. Ben obviously has the longevity, but Bradshaw has an MVP (Ben never got a single vote) and Bradshaw's playoff numbers are much better. He had a 6.41 ANY/A in the playoffs in the 70s playing over half his games at Three Rivers Stadium. Ben's was 6.02 in an era infinitely friendlier for passing.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

No kidding.
NFL pundits, coaches, players, always rank him high.
Also citing his stats from 5 games is something expect from Jordan fans on twitter pointing out how bad 19 year old Lebron was in the playoffs. The imbalance between NFC and AFC was ridiculous then. The NFC dominance later, in similarly twisted logic was used to show how great Montana was compared to Brady because he never lost in the SB.


Now please go ahead and tell me why you are so much smarter than these guys. I mean Tony Dungy? He was wrong about (insert dumb thing he said) so I am right about Elway and he is wrong.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20096209/nfl-coaches-execs-rank-best-quarterbacks-modern-era-2017

What I take from Dungy's comments in that article is that he's a sore loser more than anything else--but we kind of already knew that.

 

[nighthob]

Which of these do we think is the most sad?
Eliminating the "new" teams, I think our sad list is....
Bears- Sid Luckman was great in his era.... sadly that era ended before the Korean War and nobody else has come close
Jets- Joe Namath was.... not actually that good? And nobody has come close in 50+ years.
Lions- oof, they had Stafford lately who was pretty good but otherwise Bearsy
Browns- Factory of Sadness

I mean those are all factories of sadness. My brother and I had the "Who was the best QB in Jets history" conversation about a month ago and were horrified that there’s actual cases to be made for Ken O’Brien and Richard Todd as the franchise GOATs. But the Bears, Lions, and Browns are a special sort of sad. Nothing against Otto Graham or Sid Luckman, but the fact that Dark Ages QBs are so far ahead of the competition for both franchises is just lamentable. I mean Graham’s competition would be Bernie Kosar and Brian Sipe (cromulent to be sure, but…).

The Lions, I guess, can make an excellent case for Stafford over Bobby Layne, but that has as much to do with the fact that Layne wasn’t all that good. But at least their GOAT is a modern QB (which is how it should be given the rule changes). By contrast with the Colts there’s a legitimate debate about Manning vs Unitas (Johnny U’s case resting on what he was able to accomplish in a very bad era for passing). But the Colts would be at the opposite end of the debate. Because no one’s arguing that Bert Jones or Andrew Luck are in the conversation for anything but a distant 3rd/4th.

 

[luckiestman]

I mean those are all factories of sadness. My brother and I had the "Who was the best QB in Jets history" conversation about a month ago and were horrified that there’s actual cases to be made for Ken O’Brien and Richard Todd as the franchise GOATs. But the Bears, Lions, and Browns are a special sort of sad. Nothing against Otto Graham or Sid Luckman, but the fact that Dark Ages QBs are so far ahead of the competition for both franchises is just lamentable. I mean Graham’s competition would be Bernie Kosar and Brian Sipe (cromulent to be sure, but…).

The Lions, I guess, can make an excellent case for Stafford over Bobby Layne, but that has as much to do with the fact that Layne wasn’t all that good. But at least their GOAT is a modern QB (which is how it should be given the rule changes). By contrast with the Colts there’s a legitimate debate about Manning vs Unitas (Johnny U’s case resting on what he was able to accomplish in a very bad era for passing). But the Colts would be at the opposite end of the debate. Because no one’s arguing that Bert Jones or Andrew Luck are in the conversation for anything but a distant 3rd/4th.

Namath is so cool that the stats are irrelevant. Plus we have Zach now. We’re good to go.

 

[Way2Low]

I'm gonna give Roman Gabriel a vote....

 

[luckiestman]

More seriously, Jets QB play in my life has not really been the biggest problem with the team. Kenny, Testaverde, Pennington were all fine to good. Then we had a good Favre year until he was hurt. Since then it has been rough.

 

[nighthob]

Namath is so cool that the stats are irrelevant. Plus we have Zach now. We’re good to go.

Of course we all know the real answer to the question...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAQnJdOniCk

 

[luckiestman]

Of course we all know the real answer to the question...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAQnJdOniCk

As handsome as Sanchez and suffer the butt fumble or as Slothy as Mac and you get benched for Zappe…I’d rather be the hot dog munchin, butt fumblin, Trojan son of a gun