A’s have signed a binding agreement to purchase land for a future ballpark in Las Vegas.

Murderer's Crow

Dragon Wangler 216
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
23,773
Garden City
Of all the sports, baseball seems like worst fit for the sensibilities of Vegas.
Come on, they can have a slot machine that comes out of the ground and 3 baseballs lineup and someone yells JACKPOT! over the loud speaker whenever the home team hits a homerun. It'll be like the Shea Stadium now Citi Field big apple. Instead of fans hanging Ks for strikeouts, they can hang a king of clubs (get it....club?).
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
3,239
They really missed the possible name change. Should have been the Florida White Sox with Sandals. A few simple changes make that logo a sandal.
Original name of the place was Florida Suncoast Dome. The Sun Dome was the original name of the U of South Florida's basketball arena in Tampa, now known as the Yuengling Center.

Ironically, given the topic of the thread, the team in the early 90s that got the closest to moving there was the Giants themselves. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-08-08-mn-4660-story.html
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
74,696
In the same city?
No but same state
(Had no idea about WNBA had a team in LV tbh, but should have since the Sun play in a casino)

maybe Las Vegas Jacks of the Diamond? Jacks for short

then you could get a softball team Queens of the Diamond and you can have some fan promo where one could shoot the moon.
 

MuzzyField

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
The two Kings aren't in the same sport. Same thing for the two Giants.

The Rays wanted to use Sting Rays but there was a baseball team in Hawaii that had the rights, so Devil Rays it was. The Tampa Bay owner didn't want to pay the Hawaiian team 100-grand for the naming rights. Dumb move.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,771
Big difference. No one will confuse a headline about Los Angeles Kings vs. Sacramento Kings. But 2 teams names Las Vegas Aces?
No one got the St. Louis Cardinals confused when the football and baseball teams were both in St. Louis. Neither did anyone get the football and baseball Giants mixed up in New York. There were also two Brooklyn Dodgers at one time (baseball and football). I mean, it's been done.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
54,366
No but same state
(Had no idea about WNBA had a team in LV tbh, but should have since the Sun play in a casino)

maybe Las Vegas Jacks of the Diamond? Jacks for short

then you could get a softball team Queens of the Diamond and you can have some fan promo where one could shoot the moon.
Vegas Card Sharks
Vegas Card Counters
Vegas Blackjacks
Vegas 21's


I mean, go all in with Las Vegas Strips
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
3,239
Yes for baseball, no for North America's big four.

Moved three times, including repeat cities:

Nets: NJ-NY-NJ-Brooklyn
Raiders: Oakland-LA-Oakland-Vegas
Rams: Cleveland-LA-St. Louis-LA


Four city teams:
Hawks: Tri Cities-Milwuakee-St. Louis-Atlanta
Kings: Rochester-Cincinnati-KC/Omaha-KC-Sacramento

I personally don't count the Warriors or Seals/Barons in this, Oakland to San Francisco is still essentially the Bay Area and not that far of a move.
Another interesting topic is which cities have lost the most teams. I think St. Louis is the undisputed leader, at least in terms of teams who have left since the 50s. San Diego*, KC** and Oakland*** are the other flagship cities in this regard.

* Chargers and at least two basketball teams, 3 if you want to count the ABA team that folded.
**A's, Scouts, Kings
***once the As move, that'll be two football teams and one baseball team; I don't count the basketball move either, to me it's the same as the Pats moving from Boston to Foxborough.
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
3,239
No one got the St. Louis Cardinals confused when the football and baseball teams were both in St. Louis. Neither did anyone get the football and baseball Giants mixed up in New York. There were also two Brooklyn Dodgers at one time (baseball and football). I mean, it's been done.
Funny thing is, the Cardinal football team moved from Chicago to St. Louis and kept the nickname; whereas the Cincinnati Royals became the Kings when they went to KC.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,771
Another interesting topic is which cities have lost the most teams. I think St. Louis is the undisputed leader, at least in terms of teams who have left since the 50s. San Diego*, KC** and Oakland*** are the other flagship cities in this regard.

* Chargers and at least two basketball teams, 3 if you want to count the ABA team that folded.
**A's, Scouts, Kings
***once the As move, that'll be two football teams and one baseball team; I don't count the basketball move either, to me it's the same as the Pats moving from Boston to Foxborough.
Oakland also lost the Seals in the NHL and the Oaks in the ABA. At one point in time, Oakland had four teams in the four majors playing in their city.
 

Zososoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2009
9,334
South of North
@Zososoxfan - I didn’t mean to imply TB has no fans, sorry if to came across that way. Just mean it’s owner like the A’s seems to have zero desire to stay there.
None taken but thank you for the post. I just want Bostonians to know that there are fans involved in these discussions, since it's so easy to dismiss a club run like the Rays that don't have the benefit of history like A's.

View attachment 63763

The Sundome (as I believe it was once known) was used as leverage for not one, but two teams to get better deals. The White Sox were so far out the door that they already had t-shirts created for them (above) when they left town. It took a last minute state government shenanigans to keep the White Sox in town. The popular myth is that the clock on the Illinois senate floor was set back ten minutes so that the deal for Comiskey Two could be hammered out. Then the Giants were going to move to St. Pete in 1991, I think. But then they got PacBell and the Giants weren't going to move anywhere. These teams were always rumored to be on the move, with the Giants were supposed to move to Toronto in the 70s and the White Sox were eyeing a move to Milwaukee in the late 60s.

BTW, the Lightning used to play in the dome their first few years, right?
That's an awesome anecdote, and I'd pay for one of those shirts! I found a Tampa Smokers shirt a few years back and love it!
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
3,239
Oakland also lost the Seals in the NHL and the Oaks in the ABA. At one point in time, Oakland had four teams in the four majors playing in their city.
Geez, how could I forget the Golden Seals? Sorry about that. I purposely left out ABA teams; but, I guess, that would increase the total for 3 of the 4 cities (St.L Spirit, SD Conquistadors, Oakland Oaks).
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,771
None taken but thank you for the post. I just want Bostonians to know that there are fans involved in these discussions, since it's so easy to dismiss a club run like the Rays that don't have the benefit of history like A's.



That's an awesome anecdote, and I'd pay for one of those shirts! I found a Tampa Smokers shirt a few years back and love it!
EFF just dropped a bunch of new Smokers stuff today for 4/20. You could get Smokers basketball shorts if you want.
 

Hatcher Steals Home

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
217
Plus, the minor league team plays there so they'd still need to find a stadium for someone to play in because they can't share it.
I would have to imagine if an MLB team moves in, there would be incentives to move the AAA team out to reduce fan competition. Right?

Same is true if Salt Lake City gets a team, their AAA team would have to leave.
 

Heating up in the bullpen

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 24, 2007
1,123
Pittsboro NC
As a Tampeno, I feel compelled to defend Rays fans. Stu Sternberg and his ownership is an abomination. He's been trying to bilk the cities (he's been playing Tampa and St. Pete against each other) for a decade but no one's falling for his bullshit. The stadium was built BY THE CITY (!) BEFORE a team was even here, and frankly that's laudable. That the team hasn't built a new stadium in 30 years just reflects poorly on Sternberg, who's owned the team since 2004 (!!).

For anyone who isn't familiar, St. Pete is a gulf-coast city surrounded by water on 3 sides, and is considerably smaller than the more corporate sister city in Tampa. The team should absolutely play in Tampa, and a group of locals put together the parcels for a new stadium right in downtown Tampa a few years ago, but then Sternberg asked the local govt's to pay for a $1B stadium and everyone threw their hands up and told Stu to go fuck himself. That was absolutely the right call.

The stadium lease is set to expire in a couple of years, and it's a huge urban development story here. Basically, St. Pete has matured a great deal in recent years and the land would be much more valuable to the city as a generic development rather than a stadium. It was also built on top of a historical black community (a really sordid pattern in the area--don't get me started on the development over black cemeteries), and the black mayor of St. Pete is doing really commendable work on bringing attention to this often overlooked fact. Nevertheless, Stu is still courting both cities while still threatening to relocate elsewhere while he tries to squeeze every penny out of local gov't. The guy is tone deaf beyond belief--the Montreal/Tampa split plan was asinine.

The club is finally old enough that kids who grew up with the then-new franchise are having kids and raising them as Rays fans. If they can figure out a way to stay here for even another 5-10 years, that should provide a real boon.

I'll leave you all with this--2019 primetime viewership by club:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/251536/average-tv-viewership-of-selected-major-league-baseball-games/

As far as I can tell, this doesn't look at percentages, but rather raw numbers. So the Yankees get credit for the millions of viewers they garner, but the data isn't presented as people tuning in for Yankees vs. Knicks, or other content. In any event, Tampa clocks in at 57 (in 1000s). The A's were at 21. Miami was at 15 (ooof). Tampa was higher than Seattle, Denver, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Dallas, KC, Cincy, Baltimore, San Diego, and the White Sox. The problem is with Stu, and the stadium.
Thanks for this explanation.
As JMOH said upthread, I’m glad when city leaders stand up to billionaire sports team owners and don’t use taxpayer dollars to build stadia.
It does suck for the fans…
 

Heating up in the bullpen

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 24, 2007
1,123
Pittsboro NC
I would have to imagine if an MLB team moves in, there would be incentives to move the AAA team out to reduce fan competition. Right?

Same is true if Salt Lake City gets a team, their AAA team would have to leave.
Oakland might be looking for AAA team. I really mean that — might make a lot of sense for the LV Aviators to move to Oakland. They are the A’s AAA team. Would keep a connection to the A’s for local fans (if they want that?).
 

VORP Speed

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
6,658
Ground Zero
None taken but thank you for the post. I just want Bostonians to know that there are fans involved in these discussions, since it's so easy to dismiss a club run like the Rays that don't have the benefit of history like A's.



That's an awesome anecdote, and I'd pay for one of those shirts! I found a Tampa Smokers shirt a few years back and love it!
The Tampa Bay Area was the leverage for owners to get what they wanted for almost 15 years, all thru the 80’s and early 90’s. A Tampa group bought 40% of the Twins and then was forced by Bowie Kuhn to sell to Pohlad, there was a deal with the A’s before they got a new lease at the Coliseum, the Rangers were coming at one point, White Sox and Giants were both “out the door”, Mariners were coming until Nintendo stepped in at the 11th hour and finally they were promised one of the 1992 expansion teams until owners realized it was stupid to give up their trump card.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
No one got the St. Louis Cardinals confused when the football and baseball teams were both in St. Louis. Neither did anyone get the football and baseball Giants mixed up in New York. There were also two Brooklyn Dodgers at one time (baseball and football). I mean, it's been done.
Good points.

People used to be smarter than they are today.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jun 22, 2008
36,256
No need.

It is actually part of my larger point. An owner can pay for a stadium and make money off it. Why do cities keep letting themselves be blackmailed this way? On the other hand, it is very hard to lose money in MLB and NFL at least with all the deals and revenue sharing so...
The cash flow of a major pro sports franchise generally sucks compared to other mature businesses with similar valuations. You’d have to be exceptionally foolish to drive a franchise into the ground (look at what Snyder is getting on exit), but it isn’t some sort of cash cow. Not that you should feel bad for the owners; they can sell easily enough if they don’t like the arrangement.

I’ve never seen anyone compare the incentives state and local governments give pro sports franchises to the incentives ordinary businesses negotiate when they’re making billion-dollar investments. Part of the anger these discussions generate is rooted in an implicit assumption that similarly situated non-sports businesses get $0 — but I think we all understand that’s not typical.
 

MuzzyField

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
The Tampa Bay Area was the leverage for owners to get what they wanted for almost 15 years, all thru the 80’s and early 90’s. A Tampa group bought 40% of the Twins and then was forced by Bowie Kuhn to sell to Pohlad, there was a deal with the A’s before they got a new lease at the Coliseum, the Rangers were coming at one point, White Sox and Giants were both “out the door”, Mariners were coming until Nintendo stepped in at the 11th hour and finally they were promised one of the 1992 expansion teams until owners realized it was stupid to give up their trump card.
Let's not forget the Rangers!

If you are interested in all the dirt watch this documentary my friend put together. The only reason there is a team there is MLB

Rise of the Rays Doc

I covered the Giants press conference.. It was the first time I was in the Dome and it was set up as a baseball field. I had covered the Bolts and Storm games prior and it just seemed small for baseball with the wonderful catwalks.
 

Adirondack jack

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 24, 2008
1,589
[QUOTE="DennyDoyle'sBoil, post: 5504166, member: 48839"
I hope that Vegas learns a lesson from the other desert baseball city -- Phoenix built a stadium that is way way too big. Even when they get 30,000 it feels empty (and they don't often get 30,000). It's really a terrible barn.
[/QUOTE]

Chase ain't great but there's plenty of other targets to set our sights, no?

Speaking of stadiums too big for a baseball diamond, lets talk about Olympic Stadium (now, this is where taxpayer dollars go to burn). I attended games in there that had 2000 or less fans in attendance (about 80,000 capacity). If one were to drop a few quarters out of your pocket it woulda been heard easily on the opposite side of the field and you might get the attention of the pitcher. The Olympic committee could teach Vegas, a thing or two, about building an antiquated POS baseball field..

Lets set the record straight: owners should not be getting taxpayer subsidized stadiums built. It is ludicrous. Period. Full stop.

I have sympathy for the Oakland fans. Maybe someday I can tell them stories how I used to be able to drive to a MLB baseball game in 120 miles, but they'll have a hard time relating because they can still drive to a game in what 30 miles or less after they lost their team.

In closing, bring baseball back to Montreal.

edit: and Fuck vegas
 
Last edited:

Zososoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2009
9,334
South of North
EFF just dropped a bunch of new Smokers stuff today for 4/20. You could get Smokers basketball shorts if you want.
Just picked up a ballcap, thanks!

The Tampa Bay Area was the leverage for owners to get what they wanted for almost 15 years, all thru the 80’s and early 90’s. A Tampa group bought 40% of the Twins and then was forced by Bowie Kuhn to sell to Pohlad, there was a deal with the A’s before they got a new lease at the Coliseum, the Rangers were coming at one point, White Sox and Giants were both “out the door”, Mariners were coming until Nintendo stepped in at the 11th hour and finally they were promised one of the 1992 expansion teams until owners realized it was stupid to give up their trump card.
Great point.
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
3,239
Then I guess since Tampa got a team, DC became the new Tampa; then after the Expos moved there, Vegas became the new DC; when Vegas is spoken for (very soon, it would appear, but never say never; we don't have the Hartford Patriots, for example); what's the new Vegas?
 
Last edited:

derekson

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2010
6,286
Then I guess since Tampa got a team, DC became the new Tampa; then after the Expos moved there, Vegas became the new DC; when Vegas is spoken for (very soon, it would appear, but never say never; we don't have the Hartford Patriots, for example); what's the new Vegas?
Montreal
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
74,696
Then I guess since Tampa got a team, DC became the new Tampa; then after the Expos moved there, Vegas became the new DC; when Vegas is spoken for (very soon, it would appear, but never say never; we don't have the Hartford Patriots, for example); what's the new Vegas?
Nashville?

Somewhat centrally located
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,771
Nashville?

Somewhat centrally located
I would bet that Nashville gets a team in the next round of expansion.

Depending on whether Portland gets a team, I could see either Portland or Raleigh being the next owner boogeyman to be used when a team is threatening to move. With Vancouver and Salt Lake City being darkhorses. Though I also think--and this will never happen--New York City could support another team. Either in Brooklyn or northern NJ.

That being said, I hope that Montreal gets the Rays.
 

Gdiguy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,291
San Diego, CA
I would bet that Nashville gets a team in the next round of expansion.

Depending on whether Portland gets a team, I could see either Portland or Raleigh being the next owner boogeyman to be used when a team is threatening to move. With Vancouver and Salt Lake City being darkhorses. Though I also think--and this will never happen--New York City could support another team. Either in Brooklyn or northern NJ.

That being said, I hope that Montreal gets the Rays.
NY could definitely support another team and if it existed it would succeed, but the thing about NY that's bad for that usage is that no-one in NY is clamoring for a third MLB team

You can argue about whether Vegas was good from that perspective either, but for all of those there are baseball fans (& money) that are excited about the idea of having an MLB team... I doubt there's many people in NY saying 'I love MLB but hate the Mets and Yankees, I wish MLB moved a new team here!"
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
28,074
Saskatoon Canada
Montreal has some cool plans for a new stadium, but the Big O made the Coliseum look like Camden Yards. A team in downtown Montreal would be so cool. If I inherited a few Billion getting the Expos back would be on my wish list. Obviously buying the Yankees and moving them to Juarez or Nunavit would be top of my list.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,771
Montreal has some cool plans for a new stadium, but the Big O made the Coliseum look like Camden Yards. A team in downtown Montreal would be so cool. If I inherited a few Billion getting the Expos back would be on my wish list. Obviously buying the Yankees and moving them to Juarez or Nunavit would be top of my list.
Before Mt. Davis, the Coliseum was actually really nice. The first stadium that I ever went to, aside from Fenway, was the Big O and even as a wide-eyed eighth grader I thought that the place was pretty shitty.
 

cannonball 1729

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 8, 2005
3,581
The Sticks
Then I guess since Tampa got a team, DC became the new Tampa; then after the Expos moved there, Vegas became the new DC; when Vegas is spoken for (very soon, it would appear, but never say never; we don't have the Hartford Patriots, for example); what's the new Vegas?
The ones that are most commonly mentioned are (in some order) Nashville, Charlotte, Portland, Salt Lake City, and Montreal. I suppose we might start hearing Oakland's name, too. We'll see which one has the most willing city government - that'll be the next Vegas.

And I'm sure we'll find out soon, since Manfred has made "resolving the stadium situations in Oakland and Tampa" priorities 1a and 1b. Expansion won't happen until after the Tampa situation settles, since MLB isn't going to reduce its leverage with Tampa by taking two cities off the list. (Manfred has said as much, though maybe not in those words.)

NY could definitely support another team and if it existed it would succeed, but the thing about NY that's bad for that usage is that no-one in NY is clamoring for a third MLB team
Also, the Yankees and Mets have veto power over a New York team, and there nothing I could imagine short of holding the owners at gunpoint that would get them to give that up.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,771
The old photos of the Coliseum are really sad. Without Mt. Davis, it would actually be a pretty nice-looking stadium. Wasn't it built as a way to court the Raiders or something?
Mt. Davis was, yes. When Davis was leaving LA, he basically (I may have forgotten some of the smaller details) said that he'd come back to Oakland only if the city and county upgraded the Coliseum to include more luxury boxes and seating. And that's where Mt. Davis came in.

It absolutely destroyed the aesthetics of the park, but Al Davis was a huge piece of shit, so you get what you pay for.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
NY could definitely support another team and if it existed it would succeed, but the thing about NY that's bad for that usage is that no-one in NY is clamoring for a third MLB team
I'm not sure they would support a third team. They are middle of the pack (at best) at supporting the Mets

Citifield holds 41,000, which is a good number, but their best average since they moved over was 34,400 in 2016 when they made it to the NL Wild card, and that only qualified them as 5th best out of 15 (for gross numbers) in the NL.

Last year, with an NLCS worthy team*, they averaged 31,600, for 7th best in the NL

*Worthy, as they won 101 games, just didn't get past the Wild Card.

Between those two years they were 9th and 10th in the NL each season . Even in 2015, when they made the WS, they only averaged 31,700.
 

Gdiguy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,291
San Diego, CA
Does it matter though?

That’s where the financials of sports networks is so weird here - like even if you built a 15,000 seat stadium in Brooklyn, it seems like the TV deal that team could get would still put them among the top half of teams in terms of revenue
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 2, 2006
11,183
NJ
I would bet that Nashville gets a team in the next round of expansion.

Depending on whether Portland gets a team, I could see either Portland or Raleigh being the next owner boogeyman to be used when a team is threatening to move. With Vancouver and Salt Lake City being darkhorses. Though I also think--and this will never happen--New York City could support another team. Either in Brooklyn or northern NJ.

That being said, I hope that Montreal gets the Rays.
I think NJ could support a team - somewhere central/south NJ, but it’ll never happen due to the Yanks/Mets/Phillies
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,771
They don't draw enough for an AAA team :)
Even ten or so years ago, the A’s were north of two million fans. They draw when the team is worth it. I’m 1990, they had 2.9 million come in.

Fisher, who is worth $2 billion and has a net worth more than 80% of all MLB owners, salted the Earth in Oakland. He’s a real fucking piece of shit.
 

canderson

Mr. Brightside
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
39,802
Harrisburg, Pa.
Austin and San Antonio have rough plans to try to lure a team to around Buda.I’ve head though SA wants it close so might be a hiccup.
 
Last edited: