April brouhaha with the Yankees

The Gray Eagle

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Seems like a separate thread to talk about last night's brouhaha would be a good idea, since the other thread is about baseball's unwritten rules in general and has a poll specifically about that.

Abraham in the Glob says this time the Red Sox handled it correctly.
And Pedro agrees:
"But there is a code and the Sox followed it.
Don’t believe me? How about Pedro Martinez?

“The only thing I would had done different than Joe Kelly tonight, is I would’ve hit Tyler Austin at his previous at-bat. Other than that, Kelly executed perfectly,” Martinez wrote on Twitter.

Abraham: "Maybe the Yankees will retaliate on Thursday. My guess is they realize their rookie was too rambunctious with his slide and had it coming. Aaron Boone was an infielder; he knows how it works."

Will the Yankees retaliate? Will the umps warn both teams before the game starts, or will they let one team get in a free shot before warning both sides?

Tune in next time to find out!

IMO, Austin started the whole thing with his totally unnecessary and dirty slide. But he has no regrets:

Tyler Austin on his slide — “‘I thought there was absolutely nothing wrong with that slide. I had no thought that they were going to throw at me.’’

On the brawl — “I felt like it was intentional, and I didn’t want to let anybody push myself around or do anything like that. That’s why I went out there.”

In contrast to what Abraham predicted, Boone and Cashman say they have no problem with their player's slide.

Aaron Boone, Yankees manager, on Austin’s slide — “To construe that as a dirty play or that you’d be offended by that, I don’t buy that at all.”

Brian Cashman, Yankees general manager, on the brawl – “There was no reason for fisticuffs to have to happen based on that slide at second base.”

If they actually don't think that slide was dirty and there was no reason for Kelly to hit Austin, then not only are the dumb, seems like there could be some more fireworks tonight.

Joe Kelly stuck with the ridiculous party line that pitchers have to play along with after drilling someone:
"I threw a pitch inside and hit him. It was one of those that got away. The umpire said, ‘Take your base,’ and other things went down.’’

Uh, yeah right Joe. Interesting that Vazquez did not play along:
"The clubhouse is our home. Let’s protect our home. There will be something soon — if not this series, maybe in New York.”

He probably shouldn't have said that publicly.

I wonder how long Kelly will be suspended for and if Austin will be disciplined for starting everything with a dirty slide. I'm sure Joe Torre will be unbiased and fair.
 

EvilEmpire

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Austin charged the mound and had a chance to do something about the HBP. That should conclude the festivities.
 

OfTheCarmen

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My family had an interesting discussion on the likely suspensions from this.

Austin clearly gets something for instigating a fight. Is Kelly’s for hitting him with the pitch or for participating in the brawl? If the latter...what else are his options there? Just sit there and get his ass kicked? If the former, does every hit batsman get reviewed and judged whether some kind of punishment should be handed down?
 

cromulence

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We discussed this a bit over in today's game thread on the Yankee forum. I'm not gonna re-hash my whole take here because I'm not interested in arguing with the entire main board, but I think you (and Pedro's) take on the situation is just a bit biased. IMO, the slide was against the rules, but not so bad or dirty as to justify the reaction, both from the Sox themselves (or maybe just Kelly, I don't know) as well as the fanbase.

Peter Abraham is absolutely awful so I'll just take it as a bonus that I don't agree with him.
 

SouthernBoSox

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There isn't an argument for the slide. You can say it wasn't intentional, you can say it was intentional, but it clearly was a horrible slide that could of caused significant damage to the player. He was a foot too long, a foot too left, and a foot too high. That's a little to much error for me to think it was a mistake.

The Red Sox lost very real production and required major surgery to DP just last year on a very similar play. Its not a joke. If the Red Sox intentionally threw at a players head the Yankees would rightfully be pissed and retaliate. This isn't different.

He should have just taken his base. He's an idiot.
 

SouthernBoSox

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We discussed this a bit over in today's game thread on the Yankee forum. I'm not gonna re-hash my whole take here because I'm not interested in arguing with the entire main board, but I think you (and Pedro's) take on the situation is just a bit biased. IMO, the slide was against the rules, but not so bad or dirty as to justify the reaction, both from the Sox themselves (or maybe just Kelly, I don't know) as well as the fanbase.

Peter Abraham is absolutely awful so I'll just take it as a bonus that I don't agree with him.
All Tyler Austin had to do was say "My bad" after Holt said something. It was his bad... instead he was a douchebag. So he got hit. This isn't really tough to figure out.

Edit: Wrong Austin
 
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Adrian's Dome

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There isn't an argument for the slide. You can say it wasn't intentional, you can say it was intentional, but it clearly was a horrible slide that could of caused significant damage to the player. He was a foot too long, a foot too left, and a foot too high. That's a little to much error for me to think it was a mistake.

The Red Sox lost very real production and required major surgery to DP just last year on a very similar play. Its not a joke. If the Red Sox intentionally threw at a players head the Yankees would rightfully be pissed and retaliate. This isn't different.

He should have just taken his base. He's an idiot.
Agreed. Anyone trying to justify that slide is stretching, especially given Austin's reaction. If he truly didn't mean harm, he would've said "Jesus, my bad dude, sorry" and it would've been over. Instead, he played the Billy Big Dick card then did it again after the HBP.

Play asshole games, win asshole prizes.
 

cromulence

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All Austin Romine had to do was say "My bad" after Holt said something. It was his bad... instead he was a douchebag. So he got hit. This isn't really tough to figure out.
Think you mean Tyler Austin. I mean...the way you're talking about this is so childish. He didn't show sufficient remorse, so let's throw a baseball at him. OK.
 

Bergs

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IMO, the slide was against the rules, but not so bad or dirty as to justify the reaction, both from the Sox themselves (or maybe just Kelly, I don't know) as well as the fanbase.

Pretending for a moment that there was something particularly unusual about "the reaction", what was lacking in that sequence to rise to the standard of "justified"? He slid well off the base and guided his elevated cleats into the leg of a player who was in a stretch. He did so with sufficient velocity that his entire body overslid the bag. It was a stupid, unnecessary, and really dangerous play (exacerbated by him being a complete asshole about it). Would a sprained ankle have been enough to "justify" the reaction? A sprained knee? A compound fracture?

Frankly, I find your take here and in the Yankees thread to be incomprehensible.
 

Wingack

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Am I a bad person to say that I love this stuff?

Sure we can get up on a high horse and say they should settle their scores by striking a guy out, or hitting a home run, buuut I like seeing the passion out there.

I also think that players from the 1950's are probably rolling over in their graves about the Red Sox being upset over that slide.
 

drbretto

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Am I a bad person to say that I love this stuff?

Sure we can get up on a high horse and say they should settle their scores by striking a guy out, or hitting a home run, buuut I like seeing the passion out there.

I also think that players from the 1950's are probably rolling over in their graves about the Red Sox being upset over that slide.
No, I don't think you're a bad person for that at all. I'm all for reigniting the Red Sox/Yankees flame. There's the danger of reaching a point where the fights get tired and/or petty, but right now, I'm ok with a little passion out there.
 

joe dokes

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Agreed. Anyone trying to justify that slide is stretching, especially given Austin's reaction. If he truly didn't mean harm, he would've said "Jesus, my bad dude, sorry" and it would've been over. Instead, he played the Billy Big Dick card then did it again after the HBP.

Play asshole games, win asshole prizes.
If I remember my old timey baseball insults right, I think he'd have been called a red-ass.
 

nighthob

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I also think that players from the 1950's are probably rolling over in their graves about the Red Sox being upset over that slide.
If you'd spiked someone in the 50s you'd've been hit in the head with a pitch later and you would have accepted it as the price of the play.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I mean...the way you're talking about this is so childish. He didn't show sufficient remorse, so let's throw a baseball at him. OK.
Agreed. It's a stupid reaction and just because it's been the reaction of hundreds of players to hundreds of slights (perceived and real) over the years doesn't make it any less of a stupid reaction.

I didn't think the slide wasn't egregiously bad (like Utley-level bad) and I don't believe it was intentional. He wasn't out of the baseline or even off the bag at all. Harold Reynolds of all people had a good breakdown of the play and how Austin did use a takeout slide but that it wasn't necessarily aimed at spiking Holt, it was an attempt to break up the double play.

What it came down to is that Holt gave the appearance of being ready to turn the double play (straddled with his left foot on the bag) then switched positions at the last moment (stretched toward the throw with his right foot on the bag) to take the throw from Devers like a first baseman. Austin's foot caught Holt's calf but his calf wouldn't have been there if Holt were attempting to turn the DP. That's not to say it was Holt's fault but by the time he changed his position to stretch out, Austin was in his slide and couldn't really adjust. He got spiked because he was in a position Austin didn't anticipate he'd be in. Had Holt received the ball as if he were going to turn two, his feet would have been positioned differently and at worst he might have ended up landing on top of Austin.

That doesn't justify anything that came after, including Austin acting like a douchebag tough guy, but I really don't believe it began as a dirty play. The benches and bullpens emptying is where the stupidity really began. Let the two guys shout at each other...I don't think anyone was going to start taking swings. There was no reason for 50 guys to be milling around on the field over that. Which only escalated emotions and led to Kelly's brain-cramped attempt at retaliation.

Worse than throwing at Austin, though, is that after Austin came out and got taken to the ground, Kelly was throwing right hands at his head. Poor ugly punches but still with his pitching hand and at Austin's rock hard skull. He's lucky he didn't break a finger or worse. He was all kinds of stupid last night.
 

RedOctober3829

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It doesn't matter if you, me, or anyone else outside of the Red Sox thinks it was a dirty play. Brock Holt took exception to it and the team handled it correctly. I like that the team had Holt's back and stood up for him the right way unlike the Machado play last year. Tyler Austin has to realize that if you're going to go spikes up into somebody's leg that there is a good chance the other team will retaliate. That's just the way it is. He should have just taken his medicine and walked to 1st base. It would have all been over right then and there without a single punch being thrown. For Aaron Boone to sit there last night and say that he was surprised that there was retaliation is either ignorance or just sticking up for his guys. Last night showed me that this Red Sox team has good chemistry and has a spine. It bodes well for the rest of the season in terms of togetherness through adversity.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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You go studs up and make contact, you wear one, and you take your base. This seems like it should have been simple. Fuck the posturing about whether it was intentional or dirty or whatever. It was reckless. That’s enough.

The problem with these recent events are that everything gets overly complicated when the pitcher can’t execute (like happened last year with Baltimore) or it lingers over more than one game. Or a manager does something stupid like obviously pulling a player so he can’t take his HBP. In this case, charging the mound was unnecessary. That just leads to suspensions, someone doing something stupid, and possibly prolonging things over more than a game.

There were two options here. Either the Sox just let it go, or they do a properly executed HBP and the runner takes his base. I guess I would have preferred the first slightly, but Austin didn’t exactly make it easy. He could have de-escalated the situation by making some kind of “my bad” gesture with Holt at second base. “Wasn’t trying to hurt you, but sorry I got a piece,” or something like that and the thing probably goes away. But he didn’t, so he wears one, and that should be that.

I’m not saying that throwing at guys on purpose isn’t without risk, and yeah, it’s going to suck if one these things leads to a guy getting a major injury because the pitcher is wild. But, on the other hand, doing this little dance, if the pitcher can properly execute, probably does have a deterrent effect on bad slides. So, you do the dance, everyone’s manhood is preserved, and you move on. The charging the mound just escalates things and wasn’t necessary.

Pedro’s comment that the time to do it was the next at bat is interesting and maybe that weighs into things a bit. I think Austin was being a bit of a baby in throwing down the bat and going to the mound when he knew he had made a reckless play. Whether it was a dirty play is only something he knows and we never will but if he charged the mound knowing that he had done something intentional then he got off light and he’s a special kind of asshole. I think his reaction both at second base and when he got plunked comes off as a guy who is protesting a bit too much, but really we’ll never know.
 

nighthob

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Well, it was a rougher game back then. And slides like Austin's last night were far more commonplace.
And they still would have thrown at your head later and you still wouldn't have acted like an overgrown infant the way that Austin did.
 

JCizzle

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Think you mean Tyler Austin. I mean...the way you're talking about this is so childish. He didn't show sufficient remorse, so let's throw a baseball at him. OK.
In my mind, there's no big difference in being hit in the back by a 95 mph baseball or being cleated by a grown man diving full speed into your leg. If you're not going to show any remorse about the latter, then it really shouldn't be a shock when you get hit in return. Keep your cleats down next time. Hell, our star 2B is still out this year as a result of a dangerous slide last year. JBJ had a chance to blow up Didi sliding into second and didn't take it, that's the right way to handle it.

https://www.mlb.com/video/didis-sitting-throw-from-second/c-1929434183
 
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JohntheBaptist

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Childish would be seeing that play and running to a Red Sox message board in a glib attempt to pretend like it didn't earn him a response. I'm sure Tyler Austin is a decent guy, looks like a good player, but he was wrong. It happens. Like I don't know how much more clear it could be? He raised his spikes and aimed them right at Holt's lower leg. It isn't really up for debate.

I don't like throwing at a guy as a response at all because its dangerous and stupid but it was on his lower back and didn't seem to show any animus, and that's how these idiots settle their scores. A smarter guy would have taken his base and let it be. The slamming the bat was hilarious.

Matt Barnes threw at someone last year for no good reason and folks here lined up to call him a dumb meathead, because he was wrong. Childish is not being able to admit the obvious about your favorite baseball team, maybe that's just me.
 

Wingack

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And they still would have thrown at your head later and you still wouldn't have acted like an overgrown infant the way that Austin did.
I'm not so sure of that. Baseball players, especially young ones, aren't the most mature individuals no matter what time period they played in.
 

nighthob

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Yeah, but the 225 pound guy threatening the guy that probably fits in his gymbag right after you made a deliberate attempt to spike him is particularly stupid. Someone in the Yankee dugout needed to talk to him after the bullshit play. Encouraging massive douchebaggery isn't exactly the best look for Aaron Boone.
 

Wingack

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Yeah, but the 225 pound guy threatening the guy that probably fits in his gymbag right after you made a deliberate attempt to spike him is particularly stupid. Someone in the Yankee dugout needed to talk to him after the bullshit play. Encouraging massive douchebaggery isn't exactly the best look for Aaron Boone.
You really don't know that they haven't addressed it with him in private. They can do that and say something that looks like they support their player publicly.
 

YTF

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Just thinking out loud here... The rule change a couple of years ago to protect middle infielders from being destroyed by incoming base runners was necessary and while Austin's wasn't the most flagrant violation of the rule, his intent was clear. I'm not defending his action in any way, shape or form but I got to thinking and wonder if this new rule wasn't in place, would that slide have been viewed in the same light? What I mean is under the rules now, that slide is defined as illegal. Does the designation of "illegal" add more weight to the slide being labeled as dirty. I wonder how "dirty" it would have been considered prior to the rule. It may not have been appreciated by the guy on the receiving end, but in some respects it may have been more expected and perhaps less thought paid to it.
 

luckysox

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You really don't know that they haven't addressed it with him in private. They can do that and say something that looks like they support their player publicly.
I gotta think this is what happened. Of course you've got your guy's back in public. Of course the brand new manager of the Yankees is going to publicly declare that this was not his guy's fault. Did anyone really expect Aaron Boone to even remotely side with the Sox on this publicly? I'm sure someone in the clubhouse pulled Austin aside and said, dude, keep your spikes down and are you kidding me with the bat slam? Then it was probably over. It's part of the game, for better or worse.
 

dhappy42

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Am I a bad person to say that I love this stuff?

Sure we can get up on a high horse and say they should settle their scores by striking a guy out, or hitting a home run, buuut I like seeing the passion out there.

I also think that players from the 1950's are probably rolling over in their graves about the Red Sox being upset over that slide.
Looking at the side again, I don’t think it was the slide itself that earned Austin a shot in the ribs. It was the douchebag way he puffed up and got in Holt’s face afterwards, triggering the first bench-clearing. IOW he was plunked for being an asshole more than for the dirty, cleats up, late slide.
 

dhappy42

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I gotta think this is what happened. Of course you've got your guy's back in public. Of course the brand new manager of the Yankees is going to publicly declare that this was not his guy's fault. Did anyone really expect Aaron Boone to even remotely side with the Sox on this publicly? I'm sure someone in the clubhouse pulled Austin aside and said, dude, keep your spikes down and are you kidding me with the bat slam? Then it was probably over. It's part of the game, for better or worse.
Who knows what happened behind closed doors, but in public Cora handled this waaay better than Aaron “Bucking” Boone. Sure, you back your players and certainly don’t show them up in public, but you don’t have to call out the other team in the process and double-down on the douchebaggery.
 

Pitt the Elder

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Does the HBP still happen if Austin is called out after the replay? I would say no... If he's called out, proper justice has been meted out and no need for on-the-field justice to play itself out.

MLB should grow some balls and strictly enforce their own rules to not only deter dirty slides but to preemptive prevent messy retaliation.
 

Wingack

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Does the HBP still happen if Austin is called out after the replay? I would say no... If he's called out, proper justice has been meted out and no need for on-the-field justice to play itself out.

MLB should grow some balls and strictly enforce their own rules to not only deter dirty slides but to preemptive prevent messy retaliation.
Austin was called out.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Sorry, if the runner at first was called out. Isn't that the penalty for that kind of play?
Only if there's actually an attempt made to throw to first. Holt made no such effort. He caught the ball in a stretch, first baseman-style, no intent to throw to first at all. Truth of the matter is that if he'd been attempting to turn the double play, he probably doesn't get spiked and at worst, we're talking about a hard slide that barely moves the needle as potentially illegal.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Kelly - six game suspension
Austin - five game suspension
Cora, Nevin, Sabathia, Bogaerts, Hernandez and Pedroia all fined.
 

trekfan55

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Does the HBP still happen if Austin is called out after the replay? I would say no... If he's called out, proper justice has been meted out and no need for on-the-field justice to play itself out.

MLB should grow some balls and strictly enforce their own rules to not only deter dirty slides but to preemptive prevent messy retaliation.
Austin was out on the original call. The replay was checked to see if they granted a double play. The result of the review was that yes, he was out, and no there's no way he could have completed a double play without the slide so the guy at first stays at first.

I think umps should have a mic and explain the outcome of replay calls like these (or release something so the boradcast crew and the stadium PA can explain).
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I think umps should have a mic and explain the outcome of replay calls like these (or release something so the boradcast crew and the stadium PA can explain).
The ump was miked for the MLB Network telecast and his conversation/explanation to Cora was shown on MLB Tonight. Going from memory, he said something like good news, bad news. Bad news is the play wasn't reviewable because there was no attempt made to turn the double play. The good news was that it wasn't going to count as the Red Sox challenge.
 

SouthernBoSox

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Kelly - six game suspension
Austin - five game suspension
Cora, Nevin, Sabathia, Bogaerts, Hernandez and Pedroia all fined.
I don't give a shit. But the ONLY reason Joe Kelly is getting suspended is because Austin charged the mound. There is literally a zero percent chance Kelly is thrown out of the game and suspended if Austin goes to first. It's whatever...
 

dhappy42

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Only if there's actually an attempt made to throw to first. Holt made no such effort. He caught the ball in a stretch, first baseman-style, no intent to throw to first at all. Truth of the matter is that if he'd been attempting to turn the double play, he probably doesn't get spiked and at worst, we're talking about a hard slide that barely moves the needle as potentially illegal.
The primary rule broken by the slide, legal or not, is the unwritten one that says: “you don’t spike and potentially injure an infielder who’s not even turning a double play.”

The second unwritten rule Austin broke is: “When you get called out by the player you’ve just unnecessarily spiked, you don’t get belligerent and get in his face, especially if you’re a scrub.”

The third unwritten rule Austin broke is: “When you’ve violated the above two rules and a pitcher later hits you in the ribs, you take your medicine and your base. You don’t throw your bat and charge the mound.”

Austin is a punk. Kelly did exactly the right thing. As many have already said, the only Red Sox player who screwed up was Vaz, for not being quick enough to protect his pitcher.
 

glennhoffmania

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That is absurd. The guy spikes Holt, charges the mound and throws punches, and gets one game less than Kelly? Just nuts.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I don't give a shit. But the ONLY reason Joe Kelly is getting suspended is because Austin charged the mound. There is literally a zero percent chance Kelly is thrown out of the game and suspended if Austin goes to first. It's whatever...
The release from MLB says the suspension for Kelly was for throwing at a batter intentionally and for fighting.

 

geoflin

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I was just talking with a good friend who is a Yankee fan and he brought up another point relevant to the Yanks - Austin is a rookie, they are currently short of players, especially 1B, due to so many on the DL, and the last thing they needed was for him to get himself suspended for 5 games or so for charging the mound and instigating a brawl, which is what will likely happen. Not the way to endear yourself to your team. So my friend's question was who on the Yankees can fill the role that Ortiz and now Pedroia do for the Sox - veteran player who takes the young ones under their wing and teaches them how things work in the majors? Clearly Austin needs somebody to do this so he can understand that his slide was a bit too aggressive and endangered Holt so the fact that he got thrown at and hit, in the ribs (actually I think on the elbow which had padding) but not the head, was to be expected because that's how baseball in the big leagues is played.
 

SouthernBoSox

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The release from MLB says the suspension for Kelly was for throwing at a batter intentionally and for fighting.

That's exactly my point. There is no way they call that an intentional hit and suspension unless Austin charged the mound. In the future, if you're a scrub against a great pitcher just charge the mound I guess.
 

BornToRun

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The suspensions are bullshit. Austin started the entire thing AND cheapshotted our 3B coach and he gets away with fewer games than Kelly?
 

Sampo Gida

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What makes the slide worse is it was so unneccessary. There was no DP to break up. Holt not moving off the bag as quick as he normally would as a result. Kicking out cleats up and oversliding the bag is not a bonafide slide. Bautistas slide on Odor was cleaner. Holt should work on his right hand punch and save our pitchers.

That said, we really dont match up well in an all out brawl. Giants vs Midgets. Best to focus on playing the game since we arent winning a full scale brawl against them.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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That's exactly my point. There is no way they call that an intentional hit and suspension unless Austin charged the mound. In the future, if you're a scrub against a great pitcher just charge the mound I guess.
Disagree. Kelly was going to be suspended for hitting him regardless of Austin's reaction. Probably only 2 games or something if nothing came of it. He clearly threw at him intentionally. Barnes got four games last year for intentionally throwing behind Machado and there was no fight involved then.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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What makes the slide worse is it was so unneccessary. There was no DP to break up. Holt not moving off the bag as quick as he normally would as a result. Kicking out cleats up and oversliding the bag is not a bonafide slide. Bautistas slide on Odor was cleaner. Holt should work on his right hand punch and save our pitchers.

That said, we really dont match up well in an all out brawl. Giants vs Midgets. Best to focus on playing the game since we arent winning a full scale brawl against them.
Austin didn't know that going in. Watch the replay, Holt was standing in a position to receive the throw and attempt the turn until the last moment. By the time he re-positioned to receive the throw without making the turn, Austin was already sliding. If Holt holds the original position, double play attempt or not, he doesn't get spiked. Maybe he get knocked over. Maybe.