Anchor Investment or Distressed Asset? Where the Red Sox Fit in the FSG Portfolio

Van Everyman

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As the media and some players ramp up their criticism of the Sox approach this offseason, I thought it might be a good time to dig into this issue. And apologies if Speier or anyone had done a good, fair deep dive into the status of the Red Sox and the approach of FSG – if so, I haven’t seen it.

Anyway, I spoke with my father about this yesterday morning. Both of us are lifelong Sox fans and maybe more confused about the last 5 years than angry as some fans and posters seem to be here. But we tried to piece together what the thinking has been from Henry et al’s perspective and why they’ve taken this approach since 2019. And we came around to believing that while they are clearly trying to “save money” they likely aren’t being “cheap” so much as frugal.

If you were the CFO or CIO of FSG and you looked at the Red Sox as a brand and asset, you almost certainly look at it as an expensive one. The park is the smallest in baseball. Their titles have all been won with a top 2-5 payroll. And as you contemplate how many resources to sink into this asset and grow it, you also have to consider a very devoted fan base which has not seen dramatic drop-off in the years they’ve come in last (2012, 2014, and 2015, and again in 2020, 2022, and 2023). Maybe fan interest will eventually diminish but it hasn’t yet.

We also concluded that the firing of Dombrowski was likely an inflection point. While the Sale contract seemed lousy the minute it was signed, the broader issue seemed to be that ownership made a conscious decision that they would no longer pay a premium to win. Or at least, in the wake of the 2019 season—where they ran it back to no avail and had Mookie’s contract staring at them—they wanted to explore what happened if they didn't pay a premium. And sure enough, in 2021 they were two wins away from going to another WS, validating that less-is-more approach.

Which brings us to today. FSG from a pure business standpoint likely views the Red Sox as a somewhat profitable asset in the toughest division in baseball. What does additional investment bring them? More wins? Enough to compete in the playoffs? More marketable stars? Maybe. Meanwhile there are other teams and investments within the FSG to consider, many with potentially better odds of winning – and possibly much better odds of providing a better ROI.

Does that mean Henry “doesn’t care about the Red Sox”? It’s hard to believe. He has been through 4 emotional titles with this team. He runs the local paper. He knows what this team means to Boston.

But, lest we forget, the man is an investor first, sports owner second and fan a probably distant third. Which is likely why going back to at least Lester he has always—always—seemed to chafe at the idea that other teams can compete on a shoestring budget while he has to pay for performance. Henry may well view paying big dollars to compete as a failure of sorts – perhaps even more so than coming in last, which seems to bother him a lot less than many fans and the media. And now, after 4 titles and the emergence of the FSG and other considerations, he may have felt like he finally had the chance to run the team without the monkey of competing with the Yankees (who aren’t doing that much either) on their backs. So he invests modestly in the farm and bides his time, prioritizing the long term and flexibility over the here and now.

This is kind of rambling I know. But as we begin year 5 of this “winning isn’t everything” approach, I am intrigued by the idea of trying to figure out why Henry has chosen to go this route and what some of the drivers behind it are. Again after 4 titles as a fan I’m less angry than a bit confused. But as a YouTube TV subscriber I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t considering just not bothering with NESN this summer at $30/mo.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Great thread idea. I have no idea of the ranking. My two questions that have been bugging me are:

1) if they did spend $75 million more/year, what would the likely ROI be? Ratings would go up if they were more successful, ticket sales would go up, merch sales would go up. Would it go up by $75 million? $150 million?

2) how much money is $75 million/year in the grand scheme of FSG? Is it 1%? 5%? More significant?
 

67YAZ

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It's interesting to compare the Sox to Liverpool, the other crown jewel in the FSG portfolio.

Some Liverpool fans grumble that FSG take a strict "spend what you earn" approach in the context of petro-state and venture capital ownership of other top clubs across Europe. FSG purchased Liverpool for £300m in 2010. Last year an Indian billionaire kicked the tires on purchasing the club, and he told the press that FSG quoted a sale price of £4.7b. Tidy.

Under Jurgen Klopp's leadership, Liverpool have consistently competed at the very highest levels working within this budget constraint, though it has meant missing out on some top players. There's a fear that when Klopp leaves after this season, Liverpool's performance will slide - that it has been Klopp's brilliance that has allowed Liverpool to fight for the biggest trophies, not the underlying spend.

Which is a lot! In a un-salary-capped system with a very porous set of "financial fair play rules," Liverpool has the 10th highest wage bill with €160m paid out from the 7th highest annual revenue at €683m across the Big 5 European leagues. Both these numbers lag behind Manchester United and Manchester City, but also consider that yesterday Liverpool defeated Luton Town, a Premier League club spending €29m on wages this season.

Liverpool's last set of public financials (2022-2023) show a £7.5 pre-tax profit on that revenue with £126m in long-term debt. This debt is largely low-interest and was invested in 3 major projects: redeveloping and expanding their home stadium (Anfield), building a new training facility for the men's squad and academy, and renovating the previous training ground for the women's team. There's some COVID debt that got refinanced long term and some player acquisition costs in there, but these appear to be a small slice of the pie.

TL;DR Liverpool is being run efficiently and effectively with smart capital investment and a "living within your means" budget strategy that portends long term success with the caveat that at the highest levels of pro sports, success can never be taken granted.

For comparison, Forbes list the Sox as worth $4.5b with zero debt and annual pre-tax profits of $72m in 2023, $69m in 2022, -$70m in 2021, $89m in 2020, $84m in 2019, & $86m in 2018. To me this suggests that FSG could spend tens of millions more on salaries, luxury tax included, and still have the organization "live within its means." I don't know why they don't. It's a divergence with their Liverpool philosophy.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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My WAG based on nothing more than reading SOSH for many years is that Henry is smart man who wants to win but understands that the competitive landscape has changed over the last decade so BOS throwing money around does not necessarily equate to a material increase in chance of winning.

OTOH, he also doesn’t want to find out what the fan base would do if they went all-out tanking.

Henry and the team are in a tough place - kind of caught in the middle. Hopefully, they can develop a good number of their prospects.
 

JOBU

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It’s an interesting theory the roi of investing in the club. Based off 2023 attendance numbers the Sox averaged 32,989 a game. Max capacity is 37,550. Average ticket price $63. That’s over 20 million a year just in ticket sales. I would think with tv ratings/merch/concessions you would come out in the black by investing in on the right on field talent.
 

SoxVindaloo

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Van Everyman this is a great thread idea, to try to figure out the WHY of JH and the ownership group. I just wish a little more candor and honesty from Henry, Werner and Kennedy were forthcoming. Many people would be mad for sure, but others might buy into the plan, if indeed there is one.
Instead we get wildly contradicting statements, falsehoods and condescension all in the course of one offseason.
 

TimScribble

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“For comparison, Forbes list the Sox as worth $4.5b with zero debt and annual pre-tax profits of $72m in 2023, $69m in 2022, -$70m in 2021, $89m in 2020, $84m in 2019, & $86m in 2018. To me this suggests that FSG could spend tens of millions more on salaries, luxury tax included, and still have the organization "live within its means." I don't know why they don't. It's a divergence with their Liverpool philosophy.”

Am I understanding correctly that the bolded amounts are profit after payroll is paid?
 

67YAZ

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“For comparison, Forbes list the Sox as worth $4.5b with zero debt and annual pre-tax profits of $72m in 2023, $69m in 2022, -$70m in 2021, $89m in 2020, $84m in 2019, & $86m in 2018. To me this suggests that FSG could spend tens of millions more on salaries, luxury tax included, and still have the organization "live within its means." I don't know why they don't. It's a divergence with their Liverpool philosophy.”

Am I understanding correctly that the bolded amounts are profit after payroll is paid?
That's how I am reading it. Forbes defines it: "Operating income: earnings before interest, taxes, amortization, and appreciation." And there's a separate line for player expenses, which was $242m in 2023.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Great thread idea.

The one question I have is about how limiting Fenway is for the club, if at all.

On the one hand, its an iconic gem which is a draw all by itself beyond the team or its stars. On the other, its antiquated in every sense of the word (potentially limiting how much they can monetize fans in attendance) and its relatively limited capacity means the Sox are likely leaving money on the table in terms of ticket sales.

The question is whether a brand new park or a modification would change the economics enough to incentivize more spending on player talent.

It really would be great to get a look at the clubs books and would likely answer a lot of our questions. Sadly, that's highly unlikely.
 

leetinsley38

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The Red Sox are a cash cow - an asset to be milked for profits with minimal additional investment, used to fund higher growth areas of the business.
 

nattysez

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Great thread idea. I have no idea of the ranking. My two questions that have been bugging me are:

1) if they did spend $75 million more/year, what would the likely ROI be? Ratings would go up if they were more successful, ticket sales would go up, merch sales would go up. Would it go up by $75 million? $150 million?

2) how much money is $75 million/year in the grand scheme of FSG? Is it 1%? 5%? More significant?
Their attendance the last two years has been around 2.6m (which is the lowest since the early 2000s if you exclude the COVID years). In good years, it's ~3m. Using JOBU's average ticket price, 400k more fans in the park is another $25m in tickets (possibly less, since those additional seats are probably the worst/cheapest in the house) plus whatever concessions you sell, improved TV ad rates, etc. I'm not sure spending $75m more to improve the team is going to result in significantly higher profits, and it significantly increases your risk.
 

8slim

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I wish we knew the reasons why Dombrowski was fired. That seemed to signal a significant strategic change by ownership, but it’s always been unclear to me precisely what they were changing “from” and what they intended to change “to”.

All of the Tampa North stuff never quite landed with me. I never bought that was exactly what the Sox were attempting. And I don’t think ownership is necessarily cheap, as some lament. There’s lots of evidence against that simplistic notion.

They seem to want a more sustainably winning franchise, but they did have that under Dombrowski. 2016-2019 was a very good four season stretch, and it wasn’t too distant from the unprecedented run we had from 2003-2011.

I don’t know, I just want to know the straight dope on why DD was unceremoniously canned 10 months after fielding the best team in Sox history. Without that piece it’s really hard to understand what’s been going on ever since.
 

uncannymanny

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it significantly increases your risk.
Obviously it’s hard to understand what’s actually happening, but to me it all comes down to this. The team seems terrified of taking any risk. A great way to build a consistently mediocre club is to never take any risks. You hire people that make good bets and let them do it.
 

Van Everyman

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It's interesting to compare the Sox to Liverpool, the other crown jewel in the FSG portfolio.

Some Liverpool fans grumble that FSG take a strict "spend what you earn" approach in the context of petro-state and venture capital ownership of other top clubs across Europe. FSG purchased Liverpool for £300m in 2010. Last year an Indian billionaire kicked the tires on purchasing the club, and he told the press that FSG quoted a sale price of £4.7b. Tidy.

Under Jurgen Klopp's leadership, Liverpool have consistently competed at the very highest levels working within this budget constraint, though it has meant missing out on some top players. There's a fear that when Klopp leaves after this season, Liverpool's performance will slide - that it has been Klopp's brilliance that has allowed Liverpool to fight for the biggest trophies, not the underlying spend.

Which is a lot! In a un-salary-capped system with a very porous set of "financial fair play rules," Liverpool has the 10th highest wage bill with €160m paid out from the 7th highest annual revenue at €683m across the Big 5 European leagues. Both these numbers lag behind Manchester United and Manchester City, but also consider that yesterday Liverpool defeated Luton Town, a Premier League club spending €29m on wages this season.

Liverpool's last set of public financials (2022-2023) show a £7.5 pre-tax profit on that revenue with £126m in long-term debt. This debt is largely low-interest and was invested in 3 major projects: redeveloping and expanding their home stadium (Anfield), building a new training facility for the men's squad and academy, and renovating the previous training ground for the women's team. There's some COVID debt that got refinanced long term and some player acquisition costs in there, but these appear to be a small slice of the pie.

TL;DR Liverpool is being run efficiently and effectively with smart capital investment and a "living within your means" budget strategy that portends long term success with the caveat that at the highest levels of pro sports, success can never be taken granted.

For comparison, Forbes list the Sox as worth $4.5b with zero debt and annual pre-tax profits of $72m in 2023, $69m in 2022, -$70m in 2021, $89m in 2020, $84m in 2019, & $86m in 2018. To me this suggests that FSG could spend tens of millions more on salaries, luxury tax included, and still have the organization "live within its means." I don't know why they don't. It's a divergence with their Liverpool philosophy.
This is great perspective, thank you.

As to the bolded, is it possible, as @leetinsley38 says, that the Red Sox are subsidizing some other aspect of the portfolio? For context, here are some of the partnerships and assets they’ve acquired:

https://fenwaysportsgroup.com/evolution-of-fsg/

I wish we knew the reasons why Dombrowski was fired. That seemed to signal a significant strategic change by ownership, but it’s always been unclear to me precisely what they were changing “from” and what they intended to change “to”.

All of the Tampa North stuff never quite landed with me. I never bought that was exactly what the Sox were attempting. And I don’t think ownership is necessarily cheap, as some lament. There’s lots of evidence against that simplistic notion.

They seem to want a more sustainably winning franchise, but they did have that under Dombrowski. 2016-2019 was a very good four season stretch, and it wasn’t too distant from the unprecedented run we had from 2003-2011.

I don’t know, I just want to know the straight dope on why DD was unceremoniously canned 10 months after fielding the best team in Sox history. Without that piece it’s really hard to understand what’s been going on ever since.
I agree and said in my OP that the Dombrowski firing seems to have been an inflection point. The timeline I link to above doesn’t suggest any huge investments that might require more of a belt-tightening approach but obviously that’s not comprehensive either and doesn’t include their recent PGA investment which I believe was significant.
 

ShaneTrot

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I think the inflection point was the Price contract, 7 years $217 million. He was on the team from 2016-2019 giving the Sox 9.8 WAR over those 4 years. Of course, they probably would not win the World Series in 2018 without him. Not to get into the Mookie trade minefield but the Dodgers took on half the money of the last three years of Price's contract. The Sox paid $48 million to the Dodgers plus gave up Mookie. If I am Henry that is a cautionary tale about giving 30-year-old pitchers big-money contracts.
 

67YAZ

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This is great perspective, thank you.

As to the bolded, is it possible, as @leetinsley38 says, that the Red Sox are subsidizing some other aspect of the portfolio? For context, here are some of the partnerships and assets they’ve acquired:

https://fenwaysportsgroup.com/evolution-of-fsg/
The genius of the US model of professional sports franchise leagues is that, over recent decades, it's a no-lose proposition for the owners. Team values keep going up, media and merchandise money keeps flowing, and there's negotiated caps or taxes on player salaries. FSG can continue to pull money out of the Red Sox to invest in other, higher upside projects and there's not much impact on the value of the Sox as an asset.

Conversely, Liverpool, as an independent business within the English and European soccer systems, is much more reliant on regularly earning prize money from continental competitions, growing their own brand profile to increase merchandising and social media revenues, and maxing out match-day revenue. This is not to say the Sox aren't reliant on these revenue streams, but the franchise system makes the individual team less dependent on these streams since so much money comes through the league-collected and distributed channels.
 
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Son of Mark

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There’s also the additional revenue teams get from playoff games. Hard to find a precise number but near as I can tell the Rangers ownership might have walked away from last year with an extra $50M from their World Series win.

Of course spending more doesn’t guarantee a World Series win (or even a playoff berth). But it doesn’t hurt. Since 2000, nearly 40% of World Series winners were top 5 in payroll (and if you think going back 24 years is too far, 4 of the last 10 winners were top 5 spenders).

So if I was an owner, I’d want to spend just enough to make the playoffs. You get in and start collecting extra revenue, keep the fans coming to the game/tuned in, and who knows, maybe luck into a World Series.

Which is what makes this offseason so frustrating. If you have a team on the edge of being a playoff team, that’s the time you could get the most bang for the extra investment.
 

HfxBob

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I think the inflection point was the Price contract, 7 years $217 million. He was on the team from 2016-2019 giving the Sox 9.8 WAR over those 4 years. Of course, they probably would not win the World Series in 2018 without him. Not to get into the Mookie trade minefield but the Dodgers took on half the money of the last three years of Price's contract. The Sox paid $48 million to the Dodgers plus gave up Mookie. If I am Henry that is a cautionary tale about giving 30-year-old pitchers big-money contracts.
I just can't believe it's as simple as one contract that didn't work out. Henry already knew that big-money contracts to 30 year old pitchers are risky and talked about it in connection to Lester.

The results of the Sale extension didn't help, needless to say.

End of the day, it's still somewhat of a mystery what's going on with Henry's thinking and with the payroll budget.
 

BroodsSexton

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I was thinking about this thread idea the other day as well--I had one cogent thought but it wasn't enough to start a thread so I'm glad you did.

FSG now has a diverse portfolio of sports asserts. It also undoubtedly has access to much more detailed market and trend data than we do. Is it possible that long term declining trends of MLB vis-à-vis other leagues affects their practices?
 

HfxBob

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I was thinking about this thread idea the other day as well--I had one cogent thought but it wasn't enough to start a thread so I'm glad you did.

FSG now has a diverse portfolio of sports asserts. It also undoubtedly has access to much more detailed market and trend data than we do. Is it possible that long term declining trends of MLB vis-à-vis other leagues affects their practices?
There are too many possibilities and too little concrete info, that's the problem.

If the future of MLB is starting to look gloomy, what the hell did the Dodgers just do?

How are the Dodgers, Mets and Yankees outspending the Red Sox by $100 million?

The last Forbes review showed the Red Sox still a solid #3 in franchise market value, not far behind the Dodgers. And still turning healthy profits.
 

jbupstate

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Of course spending more doesn’t guarantee a World Series win (or even a playoff berth). But it doesn’t hurt. Since 2000, nearly 40% of World Series winners were top 5 in payroll (and if you think going back 24 years is too far, 4 of the last 10 winners were top 5 spenders).
I’m not an arbitrage trader but that’s not a smart business bet. We like to think that billionaire owners can/should take on the risk but most don’t flush money away. Of course, ego and advanced age can get the money flowing.

I believe right now FSG would spend $300m+ on premier talent… YY, Ohtani, Cole/Trout, Betts, etc. I stubbornly refuse to believe there is a hard $225m cap due to constraints. Very easy for me to believe the evaluation of BS/JM show they are not good enough to justify their market demands.

My two cent CFO consultant observation on finances… Interest rates over the past few years have gone up dramatically. Example: 2 year treasury was 13 bps in early 2021 are now in the 475 bps range. The cost of cash went from basically nothing to something that shows up as an increased expense in varying degrees across larger organizations. Inflation is also a true concern, it doesn’t just impact the cost of our breakfast cereal, it has had a big impact on earnings.

All that said, these guys made their money by knowing how to hedge their bets. I don’t think $225m is much different than $255m to them if they feel the needle moves.
 

EdRalphRomero

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I realize this is going to be a wildly unpopular post. But I do think we have to look at the weak correlation between spending and winning -- at least in 2023. Here is the Spotrac breakdown. Overall, it shows a weak positive correlation between spending and winning. And I stipulate up-front that this is just one year -- but clearly the owners have been changing the rules to make it harder and harder to win by spending. And it is working. For the last 20 years we have all calibrated our expectations around two essential facts:

1. Teams win by spending more and
2. The Red Sox will be one of the top spending teams and therefore we are entitled to consistent playoff spots, and minimal droughts because we are not 1 of 30 teams but 1 of the 6 or 7 big-market teams.

But what if those premises are no longer true? Or at least what if the Red Sox are seeing that there are now all sorts of traps laid for teams that spend spend spend -- like bumping a first round pick to a second round, or losing international signing money? I live in Connecticut and am surrounded by Yankees fans and Mets fans who are mad at their teams for idiocy while being #1 and #2 in spending. We watched the Padres take Xander as part of a giant spending spree only to finish right around .500 and hamstring themselves for a while. Meanwhile the Orioles and Rays, who we fully expect to exist to be our punching bags, are spending very little money but winning.

As I said, there is still a positive correlation to spending and I both hope and expect the Sox to open the purse strings. But I think, in particular since the last collective bargaining agreement from 2022 we might still be catching up to a new reality in MLB. Also, you guys never really told me, what is P&G?
 
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8slim

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It also undoubtedly has access to much more detailed market and trend data than we do. Is it possible that long term declining trends of MLB vis-à-vis other leagues affects their practices?
You raise a good point. However, I would find it dispiriting if this was a factor in how the Sox are running the franchise.

Overall the business of MLB is remarkably strong, with one notable exception. Attendance league-wide is stable, sponsorship value remains high, and national TV deals are lucrative and likely growing.

Obviously, the collapse of Bally Sports has been a big financial concern (along with the general decline of the cable bundle). But people forget that the NBC Sports RSNs are doing well, as are all of the team-owned RSNs, which of course includes NESN.

Plus, baseball is well positioned for the evolution of TV from traditional linear channels to streaming. Streamers need inventory to drive subscriptions, and no league has more of that than MLB. Apple and Amazon are in the business of baseball, and the latter clearly wants to be in it deeper.

LIke I said, your point is important in this discussion. But from all the data I see, and what we know about the near/mid-term future, the Sox are gonna be just fine financially for quite some time.
 

sezwho

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I realize this is going to be a wildly unpopular post. But I do think we have to look at the weak correlation between spending and winning -- at least in 2023. Here is the Spotrac breakdown. Overall, it shows a weak positive correlation between spending and winning. And I stipulate up-front that this is just one year -- but clearly the owners have been changing the rules to make it harder and harder to win by spending. And it is working. For the last 20 years we have all calibrated our expectations around two essential facts:

1. Teams win by spending more and
2. The Red Sox will be one of the top spending teams and therefore we are entitled to consistent playoff spots, and minimal droughts because we are not 1 of 30 teams but 1 of the 6 or 7 big-market teams.

But what if those premises are no longer true? Or at least what if the Red Sox are seeing that there are now all sorts of traps laid for teams that spend spend spend -- like bumping a first round pick to a second round, or losing international signing money? I live in Connecticut and am surrounded by Yankees fans and Mets fans who are mad at their teams for idiocy while being #1 and #2 in spending. We watched the Padres take Xander as part of a giant spending spree only to finish right around .500 and hamstring themselves for a while. Meanwhile the Orioles and Rays, who we fully expect to exist to be our punching bags, are spending very little money but winning.

As I said, there is still a positive correlation to spending and I both hope and expect the Sox to open the purse strings. But I think, in particular since the last collective bargaining agreement from 2022 we might still be catching up to a new reality in MLB. Also, you guys never really told me, what is P&G?
I think it’s also possible to miss the point by over generalization (not meant as a criticism of your post which does show a more complex relationship between winning and spending). The Red Sox could appreciably increase their chance of winning by adding a SP to fill a hole, that seems beyond debate.
 

jakeefe

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I realize this is going to be a wildly unpopular post. But I do think we have to look at the weak correlation between spending and winning -- at least in 2023. Here is the Spotrac breakdown. Overall, it shows a weak positive correlation between spending and winning. And I stipulate up-front that this is just one year -- but clearly the owners have been changing the rules to make it harder and harder to win by spending. And it is working. For the last 20 years we have all calibrated our expectations around two essential facts:

1. Teams win by spending more and
2. The Red Sox will be one of the top spending teams and therefore we are entitled to consistent playoff spots, and minimal droughts because we are not 1 of 30 teams but 1 of the 6 or 7 big-market teams.

But what if those premises are no longer true? Or at least what if the Red Sox are seeing that there are now all sorts of traps laid for teams that spend spend spend -- like bumping a first round pick to a second round, or losing international signing money? I live in Connecticut and am surrounded by Yankees fans and Mets fans who are mad at their teams for idiocy while being #1 and #2 in spending. We watched the Padres take Xander as part of a giant spending spree only to finish right around .500 and hamstring themselves for a while. Meanwhile the Orioles and Rays, who we fully expect to exist to be our punching bags, are spending very little money but winning.

As I said, there is still a positive correlation to spending and I both hope and expect the Sox to open the purse strings. But I think, in particular since the last collective bargaining agreement from 2022 we might still be catching up to a new reality in MLB. Also, you guys never really told me, what is P&G?
I believe you are exactly right. Henry is above all else, a math savant; that's how he made his $$$. As owner, the Sox won 4 titles in 14 years after previous owners havent won in almost a century. Isn't it possible that high IQ + billionaire + remarkable accomplishments + arrogance have led him to the belief that he can re-invent systematic winning in MLB? After watching Dombrowski gut the farm system and sign Sale to one of the worst contracts in MLB history, he's gonna do it differently.
 

67YAZ

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Liverpool released its 2022-2023 financials today’s. The summary:

They posted a £9m loss this years, largely due to getting knocked out of the Champions League earlier (less prize money) and not going as far in English tournaments (fewer home matches).

Debt increased by £78m, now about £194m, as work to expand the stadium continued. The new section is now open and, if filled, can generate up to £1m per match. A large portion of the debt (£71m) is a loan from FSG, those terms are flexible.

Salaries and player acquisition costs rose 2%, and there should be a similarly small or no rise for the 23-24 year as the departure of several high salary veterans offsets wage increases and bonuses.

Commercial revenue is banging - up £25m to £272m. This includes several new partnerships with blue chip companies (Google, Peloton, UPS) as well as a string of new stores across Asia.

Costs for running the stadium have jumped significantly in recent years due to inflation and expansion, up 70% over 5 years.

The statement from the team president called this “very sustainable.” And it’s keeping with the trend of Liverpool living within its means while making significant capital investments to improve revenue.

Edit: In summary, in 2021-2022 Liverpool posted a 1.1% profit. In 2022-2023 it was a 1.3% deficit. In comparison, the Sox have posted 14.4% and 14% profits in the last 2 years. They're not being run the same way.
 
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pk1627

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Boras’s comments on “market irregularities” screams that he suspects collusive behavior. I believe owners have found a way to tamp down FA spend, and Henry has become a leader in this.

I mean, how many Cotillo tweets based on Boras’s slicked-back hair posse do we need? The CBA set caps, but most owners are adhering to something else.
 

HfxBob

New Member
Nov 13, 2005
633
Boras’s comments on “market irregularities” screams that he suspects collusive behavior. I believe owners have found a way to tamp down FA spend, and Henry has become a leader in this.

I mean, how many Cotillo tweets based on Boras’s slicked-back hair posse do we need? The CBA set caps, but most owners are adhering to something else.
Way too early to draw any conclusions.

Boras may have overplayed his hand this year.

Some owners may be freaking about some data they are privy to and we are not.

But I wouldn't rule out that what you're saying is the answer, either...
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
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Sep 20, 2005
8,276
Boras hints at collusion every year. It's part of his bit.
 

SuperManny

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Jul 20, 2005
763
Washington, DC
Boras’s comments on “market irregularities” screams that he suspects collusive behavior. I believe owners have found a way to tamp down FA spend, and Henry has become a leader in this.

I mean, how many Cotillo tweets based on Boras’s slicked-back hair posse do we need? The CBA set caps, but most owners are adhering to something else.
Given that Boras is the only agent who is having this issue I assume the collusion is strictly targeted to his players, is that the argument?
 

HfxBob

New Member
Nov 13, 2005
633
Given that Boras is the only agent who is having this issue I assume the collusion is strictly targeted to his players, is that the argument?
Boras also has an inordinate share of the big dollar free agents, though.
 

SuperManny

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763
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Boras also has an inordinate share of the big dollar free agents, though.
But then why doesn't this collusion impact Ohtani, Yamamoto, Nola, Jung-hoo Lee, Hader, etc? It seems more likely that Boras misread the market and was asking for about $100M more for each player than the market thinks their worth.
 
Mar 30, 2023
194
Boras hints at collusion every year. It's part of his bit.
And he's right every year, as MLB executives have all but admitted:

“I think it’s going to have consequences for [Steve Cohen] down the road,” said an official with another major league team who was not authorized to speak publicly. “There’s no collusion. But … there was a reason nobody for years ever went past $300 million. You still have partners, and there’s a system.”
What most fans fail to understand is that the 30 MLB owners -- FSG included -- are far more loyal to each other than they are to their fans. Their primary interest is in suppressing player salaries. Fielding a winning team falls much further down the list.
 

LogansDad

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Nov 15, 2006
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Understood. But this year seems extra strange.
Considering how many teams in the last decade have been completely burned by contracts to pitchers on the wrong side of 30 who had previously had a better history than Montgomery and more previous consistency than Snell makes me think it isn't strange at all.
 

8slim

has trust issues
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Nov 6, 2001
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Considering how many teams in the last decade have been completely burned by contracts to pitchers on the wrong side of 30 who had previously had a better history than Montgomery and more previous consistency than Snell makes me think it isn't strange at all.
Agreed. As has been discussed before, just about every franchise is now operating from the same playbook, both on the field and off. It makes for a much more boring sport, but its clearly what's happening.
 

HfxBob

New Member
Nov 13, 2005
633
Considering how many teams in the last decade have been completely burned by contracts to pitchers on the wrong side of 30 who had previously had a better history than Montgomery and more previous consistency than Snell makes me think it isn't strange at all.
Maybe. But getting burned by such contracts has been going on for much more than a decade. I'm not convinced that this is the precise point in history when all the owners suddenly came to their senses about it at once.
 

Red Averages

owes you $50
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Apr 20, 2003
9,215
Great topic. Thank you for starting it. I don't think we spend nearly enough time on the business side of these sports team when it becomes tied to success (Red Sox spending, Celtics going way over the cap operating at a loss, etc).

The FSG likely has a few big investments on tap, so preserving capital is likely front of mind until they start to receive payouts on some of these. They are getting involved with the PGA, they are doing massive real estate projects around Fenway, they are likely going to get a Vegas NBA franchise with LeBron when he retires, and I think they are getting involved with the Penguins (https://www.pensburgh.com/2023/7/22/23802922/penguins-owner-fenway-sports-group-is-in-growth-mode) . I'd be shocked if they weren't trying to get involved in the NFL. These initial investments, with the cost of capital increasing over the last few years, are going to be a drag until they reach the monetization phase.

https://fenwaysportsgroup.com/evolution-of-fsg/
 

shaggydog2000

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Apr 5, 2007
11,602
Liverpool released its 2022-2023 financials today’s. The summary:

They posted a £9m loss this years, largely due to getting knocked out of the Champions League earlier (less prize money) and not going as far in English tournaments (fewer home matches).

Debt increased by £78m, now about £194m, as work to expand the stadium continued. The new section is now open and, if filled, can generate up to £1m per match. A large portion of the debt (£71m) is a loan from FSG, those terms are flexible.

Salaries and player acquisition costs rose 2%, and there should be a similarly small or no rise for the 23-24 year as the departure of several high salary veterans offsets wage increases and bonuses.

Commercial revenue is banging - up £25m to £272m. This includes several new partnerships with blue chip companies (Google, Peloton, UPS) as well as a string of new stores across Asia.

Costs for running the stadium have jumped significantly in recent years due to inflation and expansion, up 70% over 5 years.

The statement from the team president called this “very sustainable.” And it’s keeping with the trend of Liverpool living within its means while making significant capital investments to improve revenue.

Edit: In summary, in 2021-2022 Liverpool posted a 1.1% profit. In 2022-2023 it was a 1.3% deficit. In comparison, the Sox have posted 14.4% and 14% profits in the last 2 years. They're not being run the same way.
The economics of the EPL and MLB are also completely different and not directly comparable.
 
Mar 30, 2023
194
The economics of the EPL and MLB are also completely different and not directly comparable.
Correct. In European soccer, a team actually has to win to make money. So FSG operates Liverpool with almost no profit margin in an effort to put the best team on the field that they possibly can. In MLB, a team doesn't have to do jack shit to make money, so FSG is happy to field mediocre Red Sox teams while pinky promising the fans that they'll spend more "when the time is right." They're not alone in this regard: this is pretty much how every MLB owner has decided to operate, not unlike two NBA big men agreeing to take it easy on each other until the fourth quarter. It sucks.
 

67YAZ

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Dec 1, 2000
8,834
Are Liverpool fans happy with FSG’s player investments?
Yes.

I'll nuance it a bit. Under Jurgen Klopp these past 8 years, Liverpool have had an incredible track record in transferring players in, selling players out, and developing youth. Far, far more hits than misses. In the years before that, the record was a lot more mixed, but that was largely due to the decisions being made about which players to bring in, not so much the amount being invested.

Now, Liverpool fans will get cranky occasionally when the club miss out on certain players. This was the case the past summer when English wunderkind Jude Bellingham, who had long been rumored to be a Liverpool target, ended up going to Real Madrid. It's understandable - Madrid are paying him a lot more money and reportedly paid his father £20m for his services. Liverpool weren't going to match that. But then the club turned around and brought in a crop of midfielders that have bolstered performances and have them top of the league currently.

Liverpool fans have largely come to understand that FSG allows the club to spend what they earn. There's still some jealousy towards the clubs owned by petro states or venture capital firms or the 2 Spanish giants, but Liverpool have done very well the past 9 years by being smart and efficient with the resources hand. This is different than what the Glazers have done at Manchester United over the past couple decades - taking dividends out of the club and allowing the stadium to get old. Ask ManU fans how they feel about the Glazers' stewardship.

So, yes a lot of the details between North American and European professional sports differ, but I still see a Red Sox organization generating steady $70m+ profits while Liverpool spend close to (or just over) their revenue.

For context, below is the current top-20 revenue generating clubs across Europe per Deloitte. Liverpool might be looking up at 6 clubs, but they are in a very enviable position where they can afford to compete for the biggest trophies every year.

78890
 

BigSoxFan

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May 31, 2007
47,272
Yes.

I'll nuance it a bit. Under Jurgen Klopp these past 8 years, Liverpool have had an incredible track record in transferring players in, selling players out, and developing youth. Far, far more hits than misses. In the years before that, the record was a lot more mixed, but that was largely due to the decisions being made about which players to bring in, not so much the amount being invested.

Now, Liverpool fans will get cranky occasionally when the club miss out on certain players. This was the case the past summer when English wunderkind Jude Bellingham, who had long been rumored to be a Liverpool target, ended up going to Real Madrid. It's understandable - Madrid are paying him a lot more money and reportedly paid his father £20m for his services. Liverpool weren't going to match that. But then the club turned around and brought in a crop of midfielders that have bolstered performances and have them top of the league currently.

Liverpool fans have largely come to understand that FSG allows the club to spend what they earn. There's still some jealousy towards the clubs owned by petro states or venture capital firms or the 2 Spanish giants, but Liverpool have done very well the past 9 years by being smart and efficient with the resources hand. This is different than what the Glazers have done at Manchester United over the past couple decades - taking dividends out of the club and allowing the stadium to get old. Ask ManU fans how they feel about the Glazers' stewardship.

So, yes a lot of the details between North American and European professional sports differ, but I still see a Red Sox organization generating steady $70m+ profits while Liverpool spend close to (or just over) their revenue.

For context, below is the current top-20 revenue generating clubs across Europe per Deloitte. Liverpool might be looking up at 6 clubs, but they are in a very enviable position where spending

View attachment 78890
Very informative, thank you! I don’t follow EPL but it’s nice to know FSG has it in them to spend to their means :)
 

sezwho

Member
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Jul 20, 2005
2,018
Isle of Plum
Yes.

I'll nuance it a bit. Under Jurgen Klopp these past 8 years, Liverpool have had an incredible track record in transferring players in, selling players out, and developing youth. Far, far more hits than misses. In the years before that, the record was a lot more mixed, but that was largely due to the decisions being made about which players to bring in, not so much the amount being invested.

Now, Liverpool fans will get cranky occasionally when the club miss out on certain players. This was the case the past summer when English wunderkind Jude Bellingham, who had long been rumored to be a Liverpool target, ended up going to Real Madrid. It's understandable - Madrid are paying him a lot more money and reportedly paid his father £20m for his services. Liverpool weren't going to match that. But then the club turned around and brought in a crop of midfielders that have bolstered performances and have them top of the league currently.

Liverpool fans have largely come to understand that FSG allows the club to spend what they earn. There's still some jealousy towards the clubs owned by petro states or venture capital firms or the 2 Spanish giants, but Liverpool have done very well the past 9 years by being smart and efficient with the resources hand. This is different than what the Glazers have done at Manchester United over the past couple decades - taking dividends out of the club and allowing the stadium to get old. Ask ManU fans how they feel about the Glazers' stewardship.

So, yes a lot of the details between North American and European professional sports differ, but I still see a Red Sox organization generating steady $70m+ profits while Liverpool spend close to (or just over) their revenue.

For context, below is the current top-20 revenue generating clubs across Europe per Deloitte. Liverpool might be looking up at 6 clubs, but they are in a very enviable position where they can afford to compete for the biggest trophies every year.

View attachment 78890
If I might also pile in a thanks? This is a much appreciated distillation for someone who only follows global soccer through the lens of the USMNT and World Cups.

I’ve also read the articles asking if Klopp may prove to be FSG’s actual special sauce, but unless and until that happens they will seemingly stick to their guns on the approach.
 

67YAZ

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Dec 1, 2000
8,834
I’ve also read the articles asking if Klopp may prove to be FSG’s actual special sauce, but unless and until that happens they will seemingly stick to their guns on the approach.
100%. Every Liverpool fan is is worried about what comes after Klopp. The margins at the top of European soccer and the EPL are so tight that the drop off between one of the best managers of his era to a really good manager might lead to a big drop in results.

It’s also difficult that several other top decision makers have left recently. So Liverpool are looking to bring in a sporting director to oversee the footballing side of operations (similar to the Sox CBO) and have to replace a legendary manager. But Liverpool is discussed as an attractive destination for top candidates.