Someone who knows more than me please explain what are pick and roll defense was against the Jazz. Our bigs hung back and watched the, shoot wide open 3 after wide open 3. I know Gobert can roll to the rim but it really killed them all game long.
You're probably talking about the Mitchell three that essentially iced the game. The Celts were in drop coverage (not ice) and Williams looked like he did a poor job of communicating where Gobert's exact placement was and Smart ended up going under the screen having no idea where Gobert was. That's execution not strategy.Someone who knows more than me please explain what are pick and roll defense was against the Jazz. Our bigs hung back and watched the, shoot wide open 3 after wide open 3. I know Gobert can roll to the rim but it really killed them all game long.
Thanks, it happened on the Mitchell 3 but also about 3-5 other times in the game. Is this mostly a case of doing a poor job fighting over the screen?You're probably talking about the Mitchell three that essentially iced the game. The Celts were in drop coverage (not ice) and Williams looked like he did a poor job of communicating where Gobert's exact placement was and Smart ended up going under the screen having no idea where Gobert was. That's execution not strategy.
Most open threes tonight were bc the ball defender was slow getting over the screen so extra help was needed and then the kick out to where help came from three. Hope that helps.
They are a beauty to watch on both sides of the ball. A true rarity in this sport......both execution and style on both ends.Utah’s ball movement was certainly something to behold tonight.
I thought his defense was pretty good tonight, a number of steals and disruptions that led to turnovers. The real problem was lack of production from Semi, GW, PP and Teague. 58 minutes and two points.is Kemba's 16pts, 5assts, and crappy defense the new normal?
we better save some assets to unload him this summer
that's easy to fix, add a competent bench wing, move those guys (not Pritchard) to the deep bench. Problem solved. Those 4 combined make roughly $8MM, none are guaranteed very long employment if they don't improveThe real problem was lack of production from Semi, GW, PP and Teague. 58 minutes and two points.
Yup. I agree too that the bench isn't that good, but not enough people are saying this. Look at how Utah passed the ball to scramble the defense, and how effective that was. And look at how terribly Tatum played to start the game, then he came back in, and shifted his focus to passing and getting his teammates involved, and Celts got a bunch of easy buckets.That's not on the bench. That's on the creators for not forcing Utah into rotation, which matches the eye test and lack of fouls drawn.
Replying to @wade boggs chicken dinner from the game thread:I agree with this. The biggest difference between UT and BOS to me is that UT used the PnR to break down BOS's defense and get BOS into rotation with the ball finding someone with an open shot. BOS for whatever reason was not able to get UT into rotation the same way.
Well that and the fact that we didn't have anyone who could guard Clarkson.
I'm guilty as charged, as well (and let's not even discuss the defense from our 3 stars).Replying to @wade boggs chicken dinner from the game thread:
This goes with my more general assessment of Celtics season right now: the theory of what Tatum and Brown are (2-way primary creators) hasn't lined up with what they've actually been, after the start of the season. I remain bullish on both, but their coronation as top-10 guys was premature (I was guilty of this as well).
Tatum, in particular, hasn't really made the move I expected to increase his volume beyond the 3-point line. It's nice that he's getting better in the midrange, but that's not the shot that forced defenses into trapping him 30 feet from the basket last year.I'm guilty as charged, as well (and let's not even discuss the defense from our 3 stars).
The shot selection chart, from the game thread, crystalizes a lot of what my eyes were telling me. Our 3 amigos are getting real comfortable going ISO, using clock, and looking for challenged mid-range twos.
Good teams, like Utah, don't do that. They immediately look for paint touches, draw, move ball, force opponents into rotation, and eventually attempt open 3s or layups.
We can fix the bench by acquiring a Harrison Barnes, that's simple. Not feeling confident it's going to change the outcome against the NBA elite.
Yeah, that seems clear. It just sucks, given that this same team last year was good without Hayward in the regular season, and was right on the brink in the postseason. With TL's improvement, Thompson being an upgrade over Kanter, and PP+Teague being fine relative to Wanamaker, you'd hope for a much more competitive showing.I believe the Celtics track record against the league's elite (shorthanded Clippers teams notwithstanding) is why Ainge is going to treat this season as a bridge year when it comes to acquiring a player at the deadline. Ainge and Wyc have been pretty open about telegraphing their intentions in that regards.
I agree - everyone does, really - that the Cs play better when the ball pops. That's obvious. But being playmakers - as opposed to just scoring - isn't something JB or JT did in college so they are learning on the job, which I imagine is tough in the NBA.I'm guilty as charged, as well (and let's not even discuss the defense from our 3 stars).
The shot selection chart, from the game thread, crystalizes a lot of what my eyes were telling me. Our 3 amigos are getting real comfortable going ISO, using clock, and looking for challenged mid-range twos.
Good teams, like Utah, don't do that. They immediately look for paint touches, draw, move ball, force opponents into rotation, and eventually attempt open 3s or layups.
We can fix the bench by acquiring a Harrison Barnes, that's simple. Not feeling confident it's going to change the outcome against the NBA elite.
I think PP is a long-term upgrade from Brad - and I was a bigger fan of Brad than most here IMO - but the defensive downgrade seems significant to me.PP+Teague being fine relative to Wanamaker, you'd hope for a much more competitive showing.
This is for me. The other good teams just don't seem to have their stars dribbling between their legs for 7 seconds and "trying to score." Tatum sometimes gets hot and it works for a while when he's hitting those sidesteps and stepbacks, but way too often it leads to out of control drives and poor turnarounds and fadeaways.I'm guilty as charged, as well (and let's not even discuss the defense from our 3 stars).
The shot selection chart, from the game thread, crystalizes a lot of what my eyes were telling me. Our 3 amigos are getting real comfortable going ISO, using clock, and looking for challenged mid-range twos.
Good teams, like Utah, don't do that. They immediately look for paint touches, draw, move ball, force opponents into rotation, and eventually attempt open 3s or layups.
We can fix the bench by acquiring a Harrison Barnes, that's simple. Not feeling confident it's going to change the outcome against the NBA elite.
I couldn't agree with this assessment more. The team has one natural playmaker off the dribble, and that's Marcus Smart, and he certainly isn't elite. Tatum and Brown are fantastic as scorers and, sometimes, as defenders, but right now they're not making the guys around them better. That's kind of expected - they are 24 and 22, it's a natural part of their development. They've both flashed enough improvement as playmakers that I'm still optimistic long term. But they both have a long way to go to reach even, say, Paul Pierce levels of being able to manipulate defenses. Right now, they can both make basic reads in reaction to the defense's coverage, and execute the right pass. What they can't do yet is think two steps ahead of those coverages, get the defense in rotation, identify where the breakdown will come, and get the pass there at the right time. That should come, but in the meantime, the team has two legit primary scorers and a bunch of guys standing around watching them. Most of those guys are mediocre shooters off the catch, which doesn't help.Moving this discussion with @radsoxfan in here from the game thread:
Last night, Semi/Grant/Teague/PP combined for 2 (!) 3 point attempts in 57 total minutes, and one of those was a bad Teague take off the dribble. Grant had the one catch-and-shoot, and even that was contested, because he was bailing out Tatum near the end of the clock.
One shitty spot-up 3 created for the entire bench in a 48 minute game.
That's not on the bench. That's on the creators for not forcing Utah into rotation, which matches the eye test and lack of fouls drawn. We can yell that we want MOAR POINTZ FROM BENCH all we want, but that doesn't change the fact that NBA role players need to get the ball with advantages to be useful on any team.
I don't think that the Celtics bench is particularly great, but with Smart back it's far less the issue than the fact that our top-end guys haven't been top-end.
Part of this is that a team running so much through Tatum/Brown should really have 3 semi-credible floor spacers on the floor with them. Thompson has been solid overall at what he is asked to do, but I don't think it does the slashers any favors to have an opposing big camping in the paint waiting for them, which is part of why we see them take so many little mid-range shots. Things run smoother with Theis at the 5 because he gives defenses something different to think about. TL does too in his way, and we are still figuring out how to leverage that consistently. Given that their optimal 4 is really Tatum and their optimal 3 is really someone not currently on the roster, they have been playing sort of wrong-handed all season.Is part of the problem that the Celtics have very little reason, nor would other teams expect them to, pass the ball in towards the basket? They do force the ball into TT, and he has been getting some baskets lately, but it's not like they pass the ball in to a big, and then he passes it back out. I'm just wondering if having a situation where all of your scorers are perimeter players is a challenge from a ball movement perspective. It seems like the Celtics do little other than pass the ball around to see which guy wants to do iso. They also do a lot of player A basses to player B who immediately passes back to player A stuff. I don't really know what that accomplishes.
We are 13th in the league in Opponents 3-pt shooting so middle of the pack to the better end. The problem I saw last night was that Tatum and others were operating in the mid-range scoring 2 while Utah was raining 3’s......I was pointing this out to the wife seemingly all night last night. I’ll go back to this being a personnel issue in that we don’t have the firepower or the shooters to compete with the best teams as they have all made massive leaps forward while we have remained stagnant or declined in certain areas. We are 22nd in the league in attempted 3’s due to our role players not being threats.......that’s a problem in this day and age.I agree - everyone does, really - that the Cs play better when the ball pops. That's obvious. But being playmakers - as opposed to just scoring - isn't something JB or JT did in college so they are learning on the job, which I imagine is tough in the NBA.
Two things bother me about this team.
First and foremost, I don't understand how well teams are shooting the 3s. It's particularly bothersome since this group has had a track record of defending 3s.
If I were coaching, I'd try to figure out why this group can't defend 3s this year. Maybe it's because everyone is getting beat off the PnR or maybe it's just SSS or maybe some teams have better shooters but if this doesn't get fixed the Cs aren't doing much this season.
From the standpoint of watching the games, I'malso bothered because the Cs seem to waste a lot of possessions, whether it be unforced TOs, bad shots where no one else touches the ball, or botched FB. Just off the top of my head - JT bungled a pass that lead to a run-out; JB threw away at least two possessions where he got in the air and didn't know what to do; KW held the ball too long on a 3 on 2 FB that lead to JB being blocked; the JT charge after TL blocked a shot; JB stepping on the sideline; the GW TO on the KW bad pass on another FB; GW passing up an open 17 footer and then throwing the ball away. Etc.
I know guys aren't going to be perfect but they seem to do this more often than their opponents.
To me, this speaks to a complete lack of focus and discipline to play within their system. Night after night we see short bursts where they move the ball and the offense and defense complement each other but they can't sustain that for a large enough percentage of the game's minutes to be a top team. Last night in the first quarter they were able to build a nice lead because they played very good D which lead to Utah mistakes and easy C's buckets. Later they had some fantastic streak where they hit something like 13/15 shots which they almost directly followed up by miss 15 of their next 17 shots(going off memory).This is for me. The other good teams just don't seem to have their stars dribbling between their legs for 7 seconds and "trying to score." Tatum sometimes gets hot and it works for a while when he's hitting those sidesteps and stepbacks, but way too often it leads to out of control drives and poor turnarounds and fadeaways.
Brad said it last night - they just make the game harder than it has to be.
For 2020-2021, I agree. Though I do think it's easy to forget, given PP's flashes on offense, that this guy is still a first-year NBA player. The heady plays show that he understands the game, and I wouldn't necessarily say this is his ceiling on defense in the long-term.I think PP is a long-term upgrade from Brad - and I was a bigger fan of Brad than most here IMO - but the defensive downgrade seems significant to me.
You know what's weird though? The Cs are playing a lot worse in clutch time than they have in the past. Forsberg breaks it down here: https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/breaking-down-boston-celtics-struggles-clutch-time-situations.Taking away the end-result - another loss where the game was in-reach - and lumping it into the category of all the other losses, this team looked more cohesive for most of the game, both offensively and defensively. This game didn't feel like the abysmal stretch prior to winning 4 straight heading into the ASB. The ball did move more, even through JT and JB, and I've been one of their toughest critics this year.
Smart 6.0 3PA/36. Semi, 5.9. Pritchard, 5.8. Your eyes lie.Otherwise, Semi has been above average shooting threes for a while now, at least by raw percentage, but he needs to have a quicker trigger. So does Pritchard. If those two were as willing to shoot as many threes as Smart is, we might pull out a couple more games here and there.
Mine and everybody else's!Smart 6.0 3PA/36. Semi, 5.9. Pritchard, 5.8. Your eyes lie.
The problem last night wasn’t anybody’s trigger: Utah was hugging up to shooters and the primary guys couldn’t make them pay for it or force help to generate looks.Mine and everybody else's!
So their trigger isn't the problem, it's Smart's. Is that what you're saying, or did you just drop in to insult my ocular nerve?
The problem is Semi isn't really an above average shooter. Other people have broken it down already. He'll also never have a quick release, so maybe that's what you mean by quick trigger.Mine and everybody else's!
So their trigger isn't the problem, it's Smart's. Is that what you're saying, or did you just drop in to insult my ocular nerve?
I don't disagree with the critiques of the starters at all. Bench play is highly dependent on the overall ball movement and game plan, these guys are on the bench for a reason. The majority of them aren't expected to be creating a lot of offense for themselves.Moving this discussion with @radsoxfan in here from the game thread:
Last night, Semi/Grant/Teague/PP combined for 2 (!) 3 point attempts in 57 total minutes, and one of those was a bad Teague take off the dribble. Grant had the one catch-and-shoot, and even that was contested, because he was bailing out Tatum near the end of the clock.
One shitty spot-up 3 created for the entire bench in a 48 minute game.
That's not on the bench. That's on the creators for not forcing Utah into rotation, which matches the eye test and lack of fouls drawn. We can yell that we want MOAR POINTZ FROM BENCH all we want, but that doesn't change the fact that NBA role players need to get the ball with advantages to be useful on any team.
I don't think that the Celtics bench is particularly great, but with Smart back it's far less the issue than the fact that our top-end guys haven't been top-end.
Listen, I think all of these things are issues, but some are bigger issues than others. The Celtics did take far fewer threes, but I think if you go back and watch the highlights you'll see plenty of instances of Brown and Tatum drawing plenty of help and deciding not to pass, opting for tough floaters and fadeaways. There's one from the fourth quarter where Pritchard is even jumping up and down waving his hands as Brown gets blocked by Gobert. There are others still where Pritchard was open and didn't pull the trigger. I think Brown and Tatum need to find Semi and Pritchard more and I think Pritchard needs a quicker trigger. That's been a documented problem with him, Brad has even complained.The problem last night wasn’t anybody’s trigger: Utah was hugging up to shooters and the primary guys couldn’t make them pay for it or force help to generate looks.
In case I wasn't clear, I'm conceding your point about their triggers, and I'm happy to admit I didn't think through Semi's limitations on offense enough. On the other hand, if he's shooting as much by volume as Smart at almost 39%, can we at least agree he's perfectly fine at what he does?The problem is Semi isn't really an above average shooter. Other people have broken it down already. He'll also never have a quick release, so maybe that's what you mean by quick trigger.
He would be perfectly fine at what he does but he's been forced into a bigger role. He shouldn't be playing almost 20 minutes a night or be 6th in total minutes played this season. It's Wanamaker all over again. We are getting over exposed to a guy who would be fine if he was 10th in minutes.In case I wasn't clear, I'm conceding your point about their triggers, and I'm happy to admit I didn't think through Semi's limitations on offense enough. On the other hand, if he's shooting as much by volume as Smart at almost 39%, can we at least agree he's perfectly fine at what he does?
This is it. This is all the analysis we need to do. Utah is a great team - they roll out walking bucket after walking bucket - and they play fantastic defense. Meanwhile, the C's have two elite wings who can get buckets but little in the way of other offensive help. Its hard for us to all see and its not an easy fix given the parameters of a potential solution but this team is really one more scorer from being able to hang with a team like the Jazz and that would also positively impact their rotations (assuming that they wouldn't deal all of their rotation for help).Team desperately needs another guy who can hit shots late in games, or at least be a threat to take them.
If Kemba comes roaring back in the second half, he's that guy. If he doesn't, we're sunk.This is it. This is all the analysis we need to do. Utah is a great team - they roll out walking bucket after walking bucket - and they play fantastic defense. Meanwhile, the C's have two elite wings who can get buckets but little in the way of other offensive help. Its hard for us to all see and its not an easy fix given the parameters of a potential solution but this team is really one more scorer from being able to hang with a team like the Jazz and that would also positively impact their rotations (assuming that they wouldn't deal all of their rotation for help).
The 2021 Boston Celtics are talented and good. They just aren't talented or good enough.
Don't disagree at all, but even teams much better than we are have guys like this. Bucks fans have to watch DJ Augustin light twenty minutes on fire every night. Even the Lakers are trotting out Wesley Matthew's corpse for twenty minutes a game. Our problem is not Semi, who has become the ludicrous center of conversation because I said soemthing stupid -- it's the fact that Kemba looks like Terry Rozier from three years ago without the defense. We're hyper-focused on depth because the Jazz have maybe the best in the league, but our problem is not depth. Not really. It's the void at the top.He would be perfectly fine at what he does but he's been forced into a bigger role. He shouldn't be playing almost 20 minutes a night or be 6th in total minutes played this season. It's Wanamaker all over again. We are getting over exposed to a guy who would be fine if he was 10th in minutes.
What makes Utah’s defense so great is that Gobert is in the lane. Unlike most teams the Jazz don’t worry about being beat off the dribble so they can close out hard. This is why they are #1 in league in Opp 3-pt Attempts and Makes while 6th in Pct.The problem last night wasn’t anybody’s trigger: Utah was hugging up to shooters and the primary guys couldn’t make them pay for it or force help to generate looks.
Were I running the team, I would not be making that assumption. And I will argue that even if Kemba returns to form, they still don't have enough.If Kemba comes roaring back in the second half, he's that guy. If he doesn't, we're sunk.
Well, I wouldn't either -- but we don't have much of a choice and neither does Danny. They're trapped with him.Were I running the team, I would not be making that assumption. And I will argue that even if Kemba returns to form, they still don't have enough.
People keep getting caught up in individual play or sequences or coaching decisions. Without defending any of those things, the real issue for this team and every club in the NBA is how much top level talent they have. Its elemental - if you have a lot of players who have winning impacts on NBA games, you are more likely to win NBA games. The C's simply don't have enough of that type of talent. Everything else is a function of them trying to compensate for this deficiency when playing superior teams.
Let me be clearer. I have no clue what the Celtics think of Walker but even at full strength, they have to play at max efficiency to beat the best teams. That may work in the short term but there is a reason why the haves keep piling on more players. Kemba isn't really the problem because he was never supposed to be the solution. They need more top end talent beyond what they already have, period. Its as simple as that.Well, I wouldn't either -- but we don't have much of a choice and neither does Danny. They're trapped with him.
To ever lead one? I don't think so. They are both so young I would definitely not say that. This version of them, perhaps not.At a fundamental level do people think that Tatum and Brown might be too redundant to ever lead an elite offense?
This is the LEBRON metric but we can use whatever non-counting stats to make the point that the Celtics got good production out of Horford. There was hope that this forum was done with the "Average Al" stuff.This is a bit of a side-track, but wouldn't it be nice if for once the Celtics got equal to or better than expected production out of their big name free agents? Kemba, Hayward, Horford - it seems like they have all ended up at least a bit of a disappointment.