Alex Cora-- what do we have here? Perhaps the best manager in baseball.
- Thread starter Stanley Steamer
- Start date
George Carlin gets the final word on this linguistic frolic and detour:
View: https://youtu.be/aIkqNiBASfI
I have no idea how this fantastic post went unloved lo these many hours, but I am here to express my adoration. Bravo, sir.
Criticism of Cora has been notably absent in the main board. Or maybe just significantly less than that on Bloom, Henry and the underperformance of the players.
Speaking of which.... how much of the shitty play should be on Cora? His bullpen management has been discussed- and IMO he has blown a few games - although it's always hard to tell how many games he snatched away because of good bullpen management. Meanwhile, our best reliever, Whitlock, has two of the most recent losses on his head and I can't really fault Cora for that.
But my biggest issue is the general lack of preparation and concentration I'm reading. Bad baserunning, bad defense, unfocused, bad decisions. I actually also think that Vazquez had something to do with the lack of focus. Then there's Verdugo who is really hard to dislike. I think he plays hard but man does he seem dumb.
Tito was let go after the shitshow in '11 and this doesn't seem all that different to me and I'd happily take Tito over Cora anytime.
Speaking of which.... how much of the shitty play should be on Cora? His bullpen management has been discussed- and IMO he has blown a few games - although it's always hard to tell how many games he snatched away because of good bullpen management. Meanwhile, our best reliever, Whitlock, has two of the most recent losses on his head and I can't really fault Cora for that.
But my biggest issue is the general lack of preparation and concentration I'm reading. Bad baserunning, bad defense, unfocused, bad decisions. I actually also think that Vazquez had something to do with the lack of focus. Then there's Verdugo who is really hard to dislike. I think he plays hard but man does he seem dumb.
Tito was let go after the shitshow in '11 and this doesn't seem all that different to me and I'd happily take Tito over Cora anytime.
You couldn't pry Tito out of Cleveland with a crowbar and dynamite at this point, but Manager John might be available if we want to go back to another title-winning manager.
Na, this team needs a disciplinary. Someone who will really get at them. What's Bobby Valentine doing?
Re: Cora, I think a lot of it falls on the players. If someone's made a scapegoat, it's probably a coach or two.
I really think Cora's bullpen management has been poor this season. In the beginning of the season when it was apparent the bullpen was not reliable he decided to keep his starters from going six or seven innings. If this was due to the shorten spring training it would make sense, but the fact that Cora said it was to keep them fresh for September seems like poor reasoning. We are getting close to September and it is looking like the Sox will be out of it. He should have stretched the starters out until he figured what he had in the bullpen. His constant reliance on Diekman and Braiser in games in which the Sox are a few runs behind or are tied has just been mind boggling. I do wonder if part of the reason that they traded Diekman was to take away one of Cora's binkies. Also the usage of Whitlock, which might not be entirely Cora is insane. Either stick him the roatation or use him as normal reliever. Having him pitch and then get three days off has been another mark against him.
Edit: called runs points. I accepted.all ridicule heaped on me.
Edit: called runs points. I accepted.all ridicule heaped on me.
Last edited:
Well, as you know, I'm not a huge Cora fan. He did come through last year though, and guided the team into the postseason (albeit by the skin of their teeth). That guiding happened during a huge Covid outbreak, so he certainly earned a pass in my book.
This year we had a lockout and a short spring training. Other teams seemed to do fine, but we were cold out of the gate. Give us 5 extra wins, and we're in the thick of things right now, instead of slowly sinking out of contention. (Maybe we also do some more aggressive trades at the deadline.) Can that be laid at Cora's feet? I'm not entirely sure. He's supposedly a great motivator and communicator, beloved by the players. If that's true it's either a bit weird that they don't get ready for him, individually or collectively. . .or that those things have pretty much nothing to do with getting the players sharp and focused.
Other factors in early bad play were the 2-times-through strategy and sticking to barreling into the teeth of the shift with the new dead ball. I'm not sure if these ideas came from Cora or were forced on him, but both did not work. And aggressivity was. . .just not good. Too many 1-2-3 innings. Again - Cora, or something Cora more or less had to buy into, or couldn't change quickly? Unknown.
Regardless, we elbowed our way back into contention with some hot performances when we were hit by a rash of injuries. And those injuries really can't be laid at Cora's feet - I mean there's no over-use of players or injuries (IIRC) from playing guys out of position or anything like that.
I do think it's fair to question the clubhouse culture and how that contributes (or not) to players being ready, having good individual seasons, and playing good baseball. Likewise, Cora's in charge of a hitting and pitching staff. Coaching results have been mixed, to put it mildly, with pitching clearly being more successful than hitting/fielding. While these sort of general staff issues are not entirely in Cora's (or any managers) control, the results haven't been good.
At this point I'm ambivalent about Cora's returning for next year. I think there has to be some shakeup in how they do things, especially in terms of talent evaluation and developing younger hitters and fielders. I still don't think he's a great field manager for the regular season. Not a disaster, but not great. He works best in keeping a finely tuned machine going as in 2018, deflecting press stuff, etc. But he really seems to have only one managerial mode - give the player time to figure things out. But in Boston, a lot of players never quite seem to actually do that. In a short post-season series, he's good. I just don't see that happening in the regular season for key games against direct opponents. The lack of urgency is very much like 2019. There's always more time - until there's not.
Last edited:
I did and I knew it was not right and I just had an epic brain fart. I blame my children
That is interesting. So I misspoke (see above) and you figured there is no validity to what I posted. Kind of closed minded, but to each their own.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I love it when Devers, or any Sox player, hits a long home point.
The problem is we need to get a couple of guys on base to sink some 3-pointers. That's how you compete in today's MLB.
Baseball's reliance on the 4 point shot and switching has ruined the game.
There is a well established precedent here in SoSH. The judges would have accepted either "Sorry, I had way too much to drink last night." or "That's what I get for posting before my morning coffee". Excess alcohol or a lack of being properly caffeinated, those are the gold standard excuses for mockable offenses here. That's it, that's all.
Sorry this is not an opinion of mine. This is something etched deeply in stone by a long lineage of drunken and caffeine addicted members here. Actually they're just bullshit excuses, but the history of this board speaks loudly and cares not about your children other than the idea that perhaps they should be placed with a family who appreciates that the crossing of home plate is referred to not as a point, but rather a run.
Just be sure to quiz the firemen as to their knowledge of baseball terminology.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. I think Cora is a good manager. Not great, but good. Cliche as it is, in '18 he seemed to nearly always "push the right buttons" as he guided the team to a season for the ages. That bought a ton of good will (rightfully so), but in' 19 the team fell back to earth finishing just 6 games over .500. Before the 2020 covid shortened season Cora and the Sox parted company due to Cora's role in the Astros cheating scandal. While I was initially anxious to see how he might lead the team that season, I was glad that he stepped aside and really had no desire to see him manage in Boston again. I wasn't thrilled when he was rehired last season, but I eventually got over it. For me, even though the team went further than most of us thought they might, I think Cora was exposed (for lack of a better word). Bullpen management was questioned at times, seemingly more so than in the past and IMO opinion there was a severe lack of focus on the field resulting in mental errors that often led to physical errors. The base running at times was abysmal and was absolutely maddening with Vazquez being a frequent offender. Some of this is on the players and some of it is on the coaching staff. I get that Alex needs to say certain things in the post game pressers, but it all became not only predictable but all too frequent. Of course, we're not privy to what goes on behind closed doors nor do we need to be, but it had become abundantly clear that was ever was being said wasn't work for long periods of time and I think many of us feel similarly this season as I think we start to see a bit of a pattern between this season and last. But it's not all on Cora. The team as constructed heading into the season had some obvious concerns and while there is no need to rehash all of that, improvements didn't come where or when we hoped/thought that they might, injuries piled up, some who were injured stayed injured and some guys who really stepped up at certain points of the season have regressed. Cora can only manage the pieces that he has, but part of being a manager is finding a way to get the very best that you can out of what you have. Perhaps there are flaws in the coaching staff that go beyond the manager, who knows? But if that's the case there's ways to address that as well. Like I said, I think Cora's a good manager, not great, but good and I also think that in his 4th full season, with a year off in between he's still trying to learn the job.
Whitlock isn’t available. Assuming they hope to save Schreiber for the later innings. Sawamura threw 20 pitches yesterday and isn’t a significantly better option than Brasier, IMO. Not a lot of great options.
Yeah, it's totally Cora's fault that the bullpen sucks tonight after an 11 inning game in which the starter went 5.
The starters are mediocre at best, and the relievers stink. They are down to two good relievers; one of them can only pitch a few times a week and who knows how good the other one really is. The order they are used in seems largely irrelevant at this point.
It seems like they should call up some guys, but hard to see much help in AAA or AA. German and Bazardo to replace Hernandez and Ort, I guess? Eh
It seems like they should call up some guys, but hard to see much help in AAA or AA. German and Bazardo to replace Hernandez and Ort, I guess? Eh
Losing Houck really killed the bullpen, since they moved him into the pen he has a 1.49 era in 36 1/3rd innings, and his only blown save was the game at yankee stadium where he also got out of the 2 bases loaded jams and they won the game.
Between Houck Whitlock and Schreiber the Sox essentially had 3 shutdown relievers, the problem was one got hurt and another they clearly aren't comfortable giving a heavy workload. After those 3 is a bunch of guys that are going to look good some nights and get shelled some nights, so when you need to use 2 or 3 of them in a game because your starters aren't going deep and your good relievers aren't available it probably isn't going to go well.
Between Houck Whitlock and Schreiber the Sox essentially had 3 shutdown relievers, the problem was one got hurt and another they clearly aren't comfortable giving a heavy workload. After those 3 is a bunch of guys that are going to look good some nights and get shelled some nights, so when you need to use 2 or 3 of them in a game because your starters aren't going deep and your good relievers aren't available it probably isn't going to go well.
Apparently he called out Bobby's defense on WEEI yesterday? Surprising.
View: https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/1557529092068630528
View: https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/1557529092068630528
My guess is he and the coaches have had some talks with Bobby that didn't have an effect on his play, so now he's putting it out there for all the world to see in the hopes that the message gets through this time.
I'm also guessing that he knows he's in his last weeks with Bobby on his roster and maybe is being a little more cavalier now that the finish line is in sight.
I'm also guessing that he knows he's in his last weeks with Bobby on his roster and maybe is being a little more cavalier now that the finish line is in sight.
to me, the most frustrating thing about the Sox is their lack of quality at bats. They make outs so frequently by hacking away at pitches out of the zone. They seem to think you are required to swing at every 3-1 or 2-0 pitch no matter where it is.
if this is the result of an aggressive philosophy from Cora, that’s a problem in my opinion. Too often I watch other teams take pitches that are close but aren’t strikes and draw walks that lead to key runs. The Sox never do that. If it’s close, they hack.
I also think that very few Sox players ever seem to improve very much. Thats more of a Cora problem then a Bloom problem.
So I agree with posters who don‘t understand why Bloom and ownership takes all the hits and Cora seems pretty immune to them
That being said, I see no reason to think about firing either Bloom or Cora. There’s always too strong a reaction to any bad or mediocre season.
if I had my way, Franconia would never have been fired no matter what kind of disaster that one season was
if this is the result of an aggressive philosophy from Cora, that’s a problem in my opinion. Too often I watch other teams take pitches that are close but aren’t strikes and draw walks that lead to key runs. The Sox never do that. If it’s close, they hack.
I also think that very few Sox players ever seem to improve very much. Thats more of a Cora problem then a Bloom problem.
So I agree with posters who don‘t understand why Bloom and ownership takes all the hits and Cora seems pretty immune to them
That being said, I see no reason to think about firing either Bloom or Cora. There’s always too strong a reaction to any bad or mediocre season.
if I had my way, Franconia would never have been fired no matter what kind of disaster that one season was
Initially I think the idea of being more aggressive was a good idea. The Sox (and lots of teams) were in a overly disciplined approach of taking the first pitch and it allowed opposing pitchers to push an easy strike and get ahead in the count.
For a short while it made sense to start going after those.
But pitchers have clearly adjusted…. Other teams seem to have also adjusted but the Sox appear to still be overly aggressive.
——all basing this off watching maybe a total of 25 games this year——-
One of my most hated things about this ownership is the way they’ve treated their staff, especially after they decide to fire them. They dismiss hugely talented coaches and GM’s (and announcers, like Don Orsillo - and who knows how their behavior has factored into Eck”s decision to leave) and when they decide to fire them, they throw them out like garbage. That tells me a lot about the ownership.
About Cora, how much of the problem with plate discipline is his responsibility, instead of the hitting coach staff and the players? Particularly when he’s dealing with so many young players being called up from the minors? I know it’s on his watch, but he has to leave a lot of this in the hands of hitting coaches and the players. I’ve been upset at the lack of fundamentals and horrific errors on the field, but the team has been a mess roster wise.
If Cora wants a more disciplined approach at the plate it's on him to oversee that process. If certain coaches are unable or unwilling to teach that approach they need to be replaced and Cora needs to to oversee that process. If certain players are unable or unwilling to comply, they need to sit or move on and Cora needs to oversee that process.
Last edited:
So. . .everyone except the actual field manager is responsible for the actual preparedness and performance of the club on the field?
Gotcha.
No - The field manager is responsible for the actual preparedness and performance of the club on the field - but he’s not the only one responsible. And certain factors are out of his control.
Peter Abraham on this off-season's managerial carousel, listing the Red Sox as a potential opening:
Bloom has had three years, but one of them was the Covid year, so really just two. Regardless of how Bloom handled the trade deadline, you can't win with as many injuries as the Sox have had. Not to mention long (injury-related?) slumps in the core lineup. And is ownership that attuned to public perception?
Cora was getting killed today by Castig and McDonough (more so McD) during the sixth inning for not having anyone up in the pen with Sawamura shitting all over himself and even in the fifth when Pivetta was struggling and his pitch count was in the mid to high 90's. I have to say that it's hard to argue with them. The Sox were hitting the ball, getting runners on base and had 3 homers to that point and each time the Sox scored a run to get closer, Tampa would out get that back and more in the top of the next inning. The boys on the radio broadcast stated that with 4 ABs left in a game that wasn't yet out of control (before the Sawamura fiasco) it seemed as if Cora was giving up on the season. While the playoffs are near impossible at this point, there seemed to be no interest in trying to keep this game from getting out of control and completing the sweep at a time when you can regain the 3 games lost to Toronto earlier in the week and perhaps more important, not fall another game behind Minnesota whom you trail by 3.5 games as with a 3 game series coming up. It's difficult hearing about bullpens being short when teams carry more pitchers than ever. Yes I realize that bullpen usage is much different in today's game than it once was, but if you're interested in winning a winnable game in what truly is a must win game IF you have any desire to make the postseason it has to be all hands on deck. You can argue the quality or availability of the guys in the pen, but don't you have to have someone ready to TRY to minimize the damage and keep the game closer?
Who were the alternatives? It was the sixth inning against a stream of lefty-mashers in Bethancourt, Diaz, Margot, Ramirez, Arozarena and Paredes, so Strahm and Austin Davis weren't great bets. Brasier had been annihilated two of his last three outings. Barnes, who was broken for a year after consistent overuse, had thrown 16 pitches Wednesday, 14 Thursday and 14 Friday. Familia threw 25 Thursday and 27 Saturday. Schreiber threw 21 Thursday and 19 Saturday. Whitlock threw 24 Wednesday and 8 Friday. I think it was Sawamura or bust.
The Sox do need a starter or two who can reliably pitch deep into games. When Eovaldi was healthy and doing that consistently, the pen was much better off.
Lefty "mashers"? I might not think of 3 of those guys as "mashers"? Strahm pitch both Fri and Sat. and tossed 17 pitches each night. Would have been nice to get him another day of rest, but he was off yesterday and does he really struggle vs lefties? Davis perhaps isn't the ideal guy in that situation, but he hadn't pitched in 4 or 5 games and there was no reason not to have him warming. Hell even Whitlock. Yes they want to limit him and yes he threw 24 pitches on Wed but in the past 3 days he's thrown 8 pitches.
Didn't have to be Davis, but if I'm culling from the list that was presented to me, he was an option as were Strahm and Whitlock. Like I stated, he wasn't the ideal choice, but at some point you need to TRY to keep the game within reach and Sawamura had nothing. My beef isn't with Sawamura making an appearance, I get that he was the preferred choice in that situation, but the team came back from trailing 2-0 to make it 2-1 after 3 innings, from 4-1 to 4-2 after 4, from 5-2 to 5-3 after 5 in what pretty much is a must win game if you have any desires to finish out the season contending for a playoff spot. IIRC he faced 9 batters and works about as slowly as anyone in the league, so it wasn't a matter of not having time to get someone warmed up it was a matter of leaving him out there to face 9 hitters and give up 3 runs over what had to be about 25 minutes.