30 for 30

24JoshuaPoint

Grand Theft Duvet
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,529
Cell Block C
Not sure if it's been mentioned but Catching Hell is on youtube in 10 parts.


ed - Some of the Buckner stuff at the beginning was quite painful for obvious reasons but the Buckner stuff at the end was pretty cool.
 

Spacemans Bong

chapeau rose
SoSH Member
Yeah, seriously. He was testing his own theory that Bartman should have known Alou was there because he was listening to the radio. For some reason though, at no point during the making of the movie, did anybody say "Hey, uhhhh, Alex? All radio is on a delay." What a pointless exercise.
All radio isn't on a delay. I've been to Giants games and listened to the radio and it's live. They only did the seven second delay so they could sync the radio with Fox so people could watch the game and head Pat Hughes and Ron Santo instead of Thhh-om Brennaman moralizing. That said, it was still dumb, just because there's so many simpler explanations.
 

SoxScout

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jun 19, 2003
30,147
The Chris Herren one is tomorrow night: "Unguarded"

NYT:

Heroin and painkillers play a larger role than basketball in “Unguarded,” an ESPN documentary on Tuesday night. “I come in here and tell you my nightmare,” the onetime star Chris Herren, long past his glory days, tells a gym full of high school students, and that’s the function of the film as well. Unlike the students, we don’t have to listen to him, but it’s a pretty good story; even if sports aren’t your thing, you might find it worth hanging around the gym for an hour and a half.
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
877
The Chris Herren one is tomorrow night: "Unguarded"

NYT:
Having read Fall River Dreams, I'm interested in seeing which locals they dig up for this one. Herren's HS coach was a real character (and hugely successful over the years), think he's still around.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
8,808
Pretty powerful stuff. Definitely worth watching.

Hopefully he stays sober, although I'm sure it's a struggle and it's certainly not assured by any means
 

PC Drunken Friar

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 12, 2003
10,273
South Boston
Having read Fall River Dreams, I'm interested in seeing which locals they dig up for this one. Herren's HS coach was a real character (and hugely successful over the years), think he's still around.

The new book, Basketball Junkie, is very very good. It's amazing how he was able to play while high the entire time...there were nights where he would be buying dope n the players lot of the garden, in his warmups, 90 minutes before the game (I havent watched this program, so apologies if they said this,
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
8,808
The new book, Basketball Junkie, is very very good. It's amazing how he was able to play while high the entire time...there were nights where he would be buying dope n the players lot of the garden, in his warmups, 90 minutes before the game (I havent watched this program, so apologies if they said this,
apparently it was more like 5 minutes before the game if you believe the documentary.....
 

Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2006
6,424
Great story, what would have happened if Herren had stayed in Denver? Would his life have turned out different? You have to wonder...

Jeff Allison is another player that immediately comes to mind with the parallels of being a local guy turned junkie, with so much promise. Tough...
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
8,808
Great story, what would have happened if Herren had stayed in Denver? Would his life have turned out different? You have to wonder...
I very much doubt it.

Although going back to Boston didn't help (yet another bad move by Pitino.....) he was probably on a slippery downward slope either way. Clearly after his first year in the NBA he wasn't close to rock bottom, and was going to start using again if at all possible. You can't babysit someone 24/7 during the season and also during the offseason.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
18,733
Great story, what would have happened if Herren had stayed in Denver? Would his life have turned out different? You have to wonder...

Jeff Allison is another player that immediately comes to mind with the parallels of being a local guy turned junkie, with so much promise. Tough...
Not sure what there is to wonder. Is alcohol, coke, and heroin and less addicting in Denver than in Boston? Herren was a user at a young age and never stopped.....it wasn't like it was the NBA influence or a return to New England that led to his demise, he was a timebomb since his Durfee days like his brother Mike was.
 

Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2006
6,424
Not sure what there is to wonder. Is alcohol, coke, and heroin and less addicting in Denver than in Boston? Herren was a user at a young age and never stopped.....it wasn't like it was the NBA influence or a return to New England that led to his demise, he was a timebomb since his Durfee days like his brother Mike was.
This is true, however he didn't have his friends in Denver that could give him his pills daily. He was getting babysat after games for the most part in Denver.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
This is true, however he didn't have his friends in Denver that could give him his pills daily. He was getting babysat after games for the most part in Denver.
I was going to write the same thing and I wonder whether HRB had seen the documentary when he posted.

Herren was clearly at risk and Fall River would have always been there in the off season, of course. But he had some teammates who were looking out for him in Denver and his crew wasn't there.

PS: If Herren had come back from a summer of abusing himself to Denver, would guys like Van Exel have been looking for it and interceded? One of the many "what ifs," along with what would have happened had he not broken his arm in game one at BC, in Herren's story.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
18,733
I was going to write the same thing and I wonder whether HRB had seen the documentary when he posted.

Herren was clearly at risk and Fall River would have always been there in the off season, of course. But he had some teammates who were looking out for him in Denver and his crew wasn't there.
No, i have not watched it yet i was only going by my knowledge of his situation during his time with the Nuggets, his actions back in New England the following summer and the fact that the Nuggets gave up on him after one season without any up and coming young PG's on the roster the following year.

There is only so long veterans can keep a time bomb like Chris down as they have their own families and don't have Chris with them in the offseason. I will try to watch it tonight but having recalled the days of Chris being "recruited" by Leo Papile and his BABC summer league travel AAU team along with the drugs and the characters that ran with them back then this was the only way Chris lived. Play hard and party even harder. The Papile/Kevin Mackey feeder system that led many of the top Boston (and USA in some cases) high school players to Cleveland State continued that pattern which ultimately failed due to the rampant drug usage among the players and coaches. When Chris returned following his rookie season in Denver he played a few games in the North Providence Pro-Am Summer League and was hanging with the same cast of characters he had growing up which was prior to the trade......it is very possible that the Nuggets had someone investigating to see what he was up to that summer as they were on the verge of making a large investment in him. That is only speculation on my part but it certainly passes the smell test from what i saw.

I suppose if Chris had lived 12 months a year with one of the Nugget veterans he would have had a better chance but that isn't a realistic scenario.
 

ljs252

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2010
70
Does anyone know when this will re-air? Had a prior commitment last night and wasn't able to see it unfortunately.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
8,808
I was going to write the same thing and I wonder whether HRB had seen the documentary when he posted.

Herren was clearly at risk and Fall River would have always been there in the off season, of course. But he had some teammates who were looking out for him in Denver and his crew wasn't there.

PS: If Herren had come back from a summer of abusing himself to Denver, would guys like Van Exel have been looking for it and interceded? One of the many "what ifs," along with what would have happened had he not broken his arm in game one at BC, in Herren's story.
I don't know how you can watch that documentary and think that Herren's 10 year downward spiral will just magically not happen if he had better supervision. An addict is only going to stay clean for good with some serious internal motivation. This doesn't have to come from the type of stuff Herren went through (ruining his career, losing all his money, almost losing his family, near death experiences, personal embarrasment, etc). But it often does.

It certainly does not come from a couple of guys being nice to him and baby sitting him for 6 months. From everything we saw in that documentary, his mental state at that point was nowhere it needed to be for him to get clean for good.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
8,808
FWIW, the Bill Simmons Podcast today with Herren was very well done. Don't often listen to them, and dont usually find Simmons a great interviewer, but on this one he was great.

Bill asked about his time in Denver, and Herren thought staying may have prolonged his career a year or two, but he was on an addiction path regardless. He also admitted that there were many times in Denver he was out til 5 and the morning and doing drugs, it was just less in comparison to the surrounding years.
 

Ferm Sheller

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2007
8,640
I don't know much about Chris Herren and I haven't seen this documentary and likely won't see it, but can someone please sum up why he's an interesting story? He was second round pick and even if he was clean, he likely wouldn't have amounted to much in the NBA. Seems like there probably are a perpetual line of JAGs, in all sports, whose end of the road is expedited by drug addiction.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
18,733
Per the documentary, they had him under essentially 24/7 watch for the time he was in Denver, especially while on the road - he basically got the "Josh Hamilton treatment."
Radsoxfan summed it up perfectly. The key part of your post is "for the time he was in Denver", unfortunately the NBA has an offseason which resulted in Herren reporting to Nuggets camp out of shape and 15 lbs or so over his college playing weight due to him returning to Fall River that summer.

I don't know much about Chris Herren and I haven't seen this documentary and likely won't see it, but can someone please sum up why he's an interesting story? He was second round pick and even if he was clean, he likely wouldn't have amounted to much in the NBA. Seems like there probably are a perpetual line of JAGs, in all sports, whose end of the road is expedited by drug addiction.
The only reason Herren was a 2nd round pick was due to his widely publicized drug use at Fresno State. The kid was a top HS prospect and easily a mid-1st round talent who was a pretty safe bet to be a successful player had he been able to commit to the game off the court. He shared the backcourt at Fresno with a 7-year NBA starting PG in Rafer Alston and it was Herren, and not Alston, who was the driving force and leader of that team. Herren didn't have any major weaknesses in his game and had the athleticism it takes to compete at the NBA level.....his lifestyle however made it impossible for him to round into a very good NBA player.
 

Ferm Sheller

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2007
8,640
The only reason Herren was a 2nd round pick was due to his widely publicized drug use at Fresno State. The kid was a top HS prospect and easily a mid-1st round talent who was a pretty safe bet to be a successful player had he been able to commit to the game off the court. He shared the backcourt at Fresno with a 7-year NBA starting PG in Rafer Alston and it was Herren, and not Alston, who was the driving force and leader of that team. Herren didn't have any major weaknesses in his game and had the athleticism it takes to compete at the NBA level.....his lifestyle however made it impossible for him to round into a very good NBA player.
Oh, OK. He was the "guy who was on the cusp of having it all, but threw it away". That's the hook here. Wikipedia and other site I looked at didn't mention that he likely was on track for a long NBA career but for the addiction.
 

rembrat

Member
SoSH Member
May 26, 2006
36,096
This was really well done. I put it slighty below "The Two Escobars" which was top notch.
 

nattysez

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2010
4,217
Oh, OK. He was the "guy who was on the cusp of having it all, but threw it away". That's the hook here. Wikipedia and other site I looked at didn't mention that he likely was on track for a long NBA career but for the addiction.
If you lived anywhere in Massachusetts east of Worcester when he was in high school, he was a superstar and it was big news that he was going to BC. All of which, I'm sure, got Simmons interested in getting this made (assuming he did, which I think is a fair assumption).

I thought the doc was really good.

And thanks to the person who mentioned Jeff Allison -- I was trying to remember that guy's name...
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
I don't know how you can watch that documentary and think that Herren's 10 year downward spiral will just magically not happen if he had better supervision. An addict is only going to stay clean for good with some serious internal motivation. This doesn't have to come from the type of stuff Herren went through (ruining his career, losing all his money, almost losing his family, near death experiences, personal embarrasment, etc). But it often does.

It certainly does not come from a couple of guys being nice to him and baby sitting him for 6 months. From everything we saw in that documentary, his mental state at that point was nowhere it needed to be for him to get clean for good.
I don't disagree. My point wasn't that Denver would have been a cure all. It was that being taken out of that environment increased the degree of difficulty and probably accelerated things.

But no doubt, Herren was a prime candidate to implode in any environment and it was probably always a matter of time.

Even now, who would be surprised if he fell back? I hope he doesn't but the odds are not in his favor.
 

Dehere

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2010
3,143
Don't really think this is thread-worthy but it's such an insane story that I wanted to post it somewhere. I'm putting it here because this guy's department was responsible for shepherding the 30 For 30 series: http://m.deadspin.com/5855807/why-an-espn-vp-filed-a-pre+emptive-lawsuit-denying-he-masturbated-in-front-of-erin-andrews

I guess Tom Shales is going to have to write an addendum for the paperback version of his book.
 

mabrowndog

Ask me about total zone...or paint
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
39,676
Falmouth, MA
Figured those of you who watched the "Unguarded" documentary on Chris Herren might be interested in this piece, which details his 3-month stay at a rehab center here in Falmouth.

link
 

julesfan

lurker
Nov 5, 2011
27
The Auburn/Alabama episode was top notch. Living in this area, it completely captured the frenzy of this rivalry.
On a side note, living in this area means I'm subjected to the Paul Finebaum show. His callers are beyond awful.
 

TheGodfather

Banned
Apr 7, 2009
40
Boerne, TX
The Auburn/Alabama episode was top notch. Living in this area, it completely captured the frenzy of this rivalry.
On a side note, living in this area means I'm subjected to the Paul Finebaum show. His callers are beyond awful.
I thought it was well done too. A little too heavy on the Harvey Updike for my taste (even if he was the one who made the rivalry go nuclear). Did we really need to see more of him than Saban and Stallings (or even Gay Talese)?

Totally agree about the Finebaum show. I gave it a try on Sirius and gave up after about a month. If listenting to a bunch of rednecks tell inside jokes is your idea of a good time then knock yourself out. Also, spare me the Paul Finebaum as dispassionate observer while the madness swirls around him. He is an Alabama fanboy through and through, and would probably have Nick Saban's love child if it were biologically possible.
 

JMDurron

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,872
I thought it was well done too. A little too heavy on the Harvey Updike for my taste (even if he was the one who made the rivalry go nuclear). Did we really need to see more of him than Saban and Stallings (or even Gay Talese)?

Totally agree about the Finebaum show. I gave it a try on Sirius and gave up after about a month. If listenting to a bunch of rednecks tell inside jokes is your idea of a good time then knock yourself out. Also, spare me the Paul Finebaum as dispassionate observer while the madness swirls around him. He is an Alabama fanboy through and through, and would probably have Nick Saban's love child if it were biologically possible.
He is more of an attention whore than a fanboy of any particular school. He panders to Alabama fans more because there are more of them and because it gets him better ratings. He's also perfectly willing to troll them when things are going Auburn's way, plus that keeps the misguided Auburn fans who expose themselves to his schtick on board. I believe he is actually a Tennessee grad, which might mean that UT is actually thinking way more long term when it comes to torturing a rival's fanbase.

I didn't watch the piece, but it seems like enough fans from both camps are annoyed about it that they probably did a fair job. I just have no interest in ESPN's take on the rivalry, particularly "through the perspective of Finebaum and his callers", or whatever the premise was.
 

julesfan

lurker
Nov 5, 2011
27
He is more of an attention whore than a fanboy of any particular school. He panders to Alabama fans more because there are more of them and because it gets him better ratings. He's also perfectly willing to troll them when things are going Auburn's way, plus that keeps the misguided Auburn fans who expose themselves to his schtick on board. I believe he is actually a Tennessee grad, which might mean that UT is actually thinking way more long term when it comes to torturing a rival's fanbase.

I didn't watch the piece, but it seems like enough fans from both camps are annoyed about it that they probably did a fair job. I just have no interest in ESPN's take on the rivalry, particularly "through the perspective of Finebaum and his callers", or whatever the premise was.

You should really watch it, the main focus was the take of the former players. Finebaum was a minor character in this, at least to me.
 

Stu Nahan

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2003
5,308
I am finally getting around to seeing the Luis Tiant documentary. Amazing. Made me love El Tiante
more and I only know his pitching through ESPN Classic, etc.
 

PBDWake

Member
SoSH Member
May 1, 2008
3,522
Peabody, MA
For those interested, Amazon's running a sale today on these. You can either get Vol 1 and 2 on DVD for $25 apiece, or do what I did and get the BluRay box set, which is apparently all 30, for $50.
 

johnmd20

figuratively like ebola
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
42,415
New York City
[quote name='Papelbon's Poutine' timestamp='1328345309' post='3965924']
Thanks for the tip...picked this up as I missed...well...about 27 of them.

(null)
[/quote]

1800 minutes for 60 bucks. Not a bad deal.
 

drleather2001

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,722
If it's not related to the 30 years that ESPN's been around, and it's not on ESPN, and it's not full-length features...

Tell me why it's called "30 for 30" again?
 

gammoseditor

also had a stroke
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
3,266
Somerville, MA
I believe the digital shorts on Grantland are in addition to a new round of full length docs on ESPN.
This is right. From the linked story:

As the films roll out, they will be augmented on Grantland by podcasts, feature stories and oral histories. A short digital film — which will be unrelated to the longer ones — will make its debut each month on Grantland.
 

DaveRoberts'Shoes

Aaron Burr
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2005
4,022
OR 12
I just watched Four Days in October. Again.

I think I should watch that weekly. If not daily. I could get by on five and a half hours of sleep a night...
 

Vandalman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
682
SE Mass
[quote name='DaveRoberts'Shoes' timestamp='1337570431' post='4142142']
I just watched Four Days in October. Again.

I think I should watch that weekly. If not daily. I could get by on five and a half hours of sleep a night...
[/quote]

The "home movie" feel of it with all the cell phone footage from various angles just adds to the drama.
 

Jeff Frye

lurker
Jul 3, 2007
94
The Constitution State
A great series and I'm truly looking forward to the next round of docs.

Going back to earlier posts about Unguarded (which I enjoyed a lot), one thing stuck out. When they talk about Chris being traded to Boston, and his brother Mike's quote;

It was a disaster: put a kid with a raging drug problem with unlimited access to it. That was a death sentence. Fuck the Celtics.
Fuck the Celtics? Pitino didn't trade for Chris to see how much further he could fall into addiction. The comment made no sense to me.
 

fairlee76

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,130
jp
A great series and I'm truly looking forward to the next round of docs.

Going back to earlier posts about Unguarded (which I enjoyed a lot), one thing stuck out. When they talk about Chris being traded to Boston, and his brother Mike's quote;



Fuck the Celtics? Pitino didn't trade for Chris to see how much further he could fall into addiction. The comment made no sense to me.
I vaguely remember watching that and thinking "No, fuck you and the rest of his family/boys/enablers. You not only stood by and watched this kid throw it all away, you actively helped him in the pursuit."

Also, as others have said, it does not sound as though Herren magically got clean while in Denver. His coming to Boston made drug acquisition easier, but he was a long way from the bottom when he was in his early 20s. He would have bottomed out eventually irrespective of location.