3/5 @ Cleveland
- Thread starter tims4wins
- Start date
I think Joe was probably experimenting with lineups, it should have been garbage time up 22 points but Cleveland suddenly couldn't miss (in part to the lineups we put out there).
I am a huge Tatum guy, but I think that was him and not Joe---he just decided to dribble it out and take the fallaway (as he often does).
I think the play Joe called was to get Tatum matched up wtih Garland, which is likely why he also didn't want a timeout. But Tatum has to do more with it than that.
I do wonder if Tatum gets psyched out about refs and doesn't want to drive because he doesn't believe he'll get the call
I think the play Joe called was to get Tatum matched up wtih Garland, which is likely why he also didn't want a timeout. But Tatum has to do more with it than that.
I do wonder if Tatum gets psyched out about refs and doesn't want to drive because he doesn't believe he'll get the call
That's seemingly the weakness of Tatum and Jaylen on those late/clutch situations. Both seem to have scars from younger seasons when they weren't as bulked up as now and couldn't finish with contact. Even if JT didn't finish on a move inside, at least there is more contact/less chance of a foul call being overturned.
He called a timeout with 4:18 left up 3. After the timeout the Cavs went on a 9-2 run.
Holding for the last shot made no sense, especially since this was a lesson learned by Mazulla in the Philly series.
View: https://twitter.com/ChrisForsberg_/status/1655612158057541633
View: https://twitter.com/ChrisForsberg_/status/1655612158057541633
I was just about to post this exact same thing. There seemed to be a few possessions in the 4th where this occurred and he was clearly very frustrated about the officiating (rightly so).
I think when the games matter more he will just say fuck this and these refs and just go to the rim
This was not a game about the last 7/10th of a second left, or a refs call, this was a game about not closing out a 20 pt lead and mailing it in in the 4qtr.
SSS
Lesson shoulda been learned
SSS
Lesson shoulda been learned
Confession in that I didn't watch the entire game, but Hauser only played 14 minutes (average for the season 21 minutes) and had a team-best +14. Seems like from the box score he just rode the starters + Horford, with Kornet the only bench guy on pace with their average minutes. But maybe I missed that the limited minutes for the bench were in a "line change" situation.
So many shots went in & out, rolled out in a very unusual way, including in the 4th
Really think even with the meh play this was a complete fluke. But OK, all the old narratives are back tonight.
Really think even with the meh play this was a complete fluke. But OK, all the old narratives are back tonight.
What examples do you actually have of this narrative? This is a Simmons (what a disgrace he has become), podcast complaint with absolutely no value attached to it.
You are convinced that this is a weakness of Mazzulla. I am a data driven person - please show me what you are seeing that definitely says he is underperforming peers or expected outcomes.
This team just lost a road game against a decent team after being on a historic heater. Its also just their 13th loss in 61 games . If our biggest concerns only rear their heads 22% of the time, the Cs will probably be just fine.
Joe just answered the “no timeout?” Question by saying he called one with more than 4 seconds left but the referees didn’t see it.
Their last two losses were to undermanned teams where the subs outplayed them. You just can't stop Dean Wade when he is on a roll.
Wasn’t aggressive enough? Garland body checked him twice off the dribble not sure what else you’d want Tatum to do to try and get by him.
Great points some are making regarding Joe for not calling the TO to allow Tatum in getting the desired matchup.
I wasn't happy with the lax D on Wade either but the reality is the next month is about getting ready for the playoffs, not wins first, and let-up is inevitable. ANd usually he doesn't hit literally every shot there still.
It’s easy to make comparisons to past teams because the scars run deep but I think it’s lazy, frankly. Every team loses big leads. Every. Single. Team. Has nothing to do with a completely different team not playing well in close and late situations a season or two ago.
We watched them play half-assed defense and sleepwalk through massive swaths of last season. This season you can probably count on one hand the number of halves where we’ve seen that and really it’ll usually be one quarter at most.
Whether their endgame plays are good or not, a lot of the complaints are pretty unfair. They had some great sequences to take the lead with under a minute left, do they get credit for clutch play on those or no?
We watched them play half-assed defense and sleepwalk through massive swaths of last season. This season you can probably count on one hand the number of halves where we’ve seen that and really it’ll usually be one quarter at most.
Whether their endgame plays are good or not, a lot of the complaints are pretty unfair. They had some great sequences to take the lead with under a minute left, do they get credit for clutch play on those or no?
Well to be fair he didn’t get either of the first two fouls against Garland then got a whistle when there wasn’t a foul. Crazy officiating sequence at the end.
On the foul I would guess Secaucus didn’t even bother to look at the landing zone because they just make their calls on vibes alone but there were like three legs under Tatum by the time he came down. The much clearer infraction imo but again, vibes.
And as noted the contact that was being let go against both JT and KP pre-shot was farcical. Surprised they even called the hack on KP’s and-1.
And as noted the contact that was being let go against both JT and KP pre-shot was farcical. Surprised they even called the hack on KP’s and-1.
I'm not really worried about losses like this. Can't win them all. Nothing really matters until the playoffs start (except health)
It would have been a nice character builder to come back after that disaster fourth quarter, but oh well.
Clock starts on the tip, not on possession, the shot clock starts on possession, but that's not relevant here. Logically the clock shouldn't go to 2.1 since without the foul at worst there's a rebound attempt at around .7 since that's when the ball hit the rim, but I'm not sure what exactly the rule book says about setting the clock after an overturned foul so they may have missed one there.
Logic would dictate that when they looked at the replay they saw that without the challenge the clock goes to 0 before Zinger touches the ball so therefore no "possession", but I'm not sure if that's actually addressed in the rule book or they just flipped a coin since those don't always seem to be very consistent.
Oddly enough this same game in Cleveland last year was Grant choking the two free throws. Almost had Tatum with two to win.
Looking forward to their A+ game Thursday.
Looking forward to their A+ game Thursday.
My understanding based on precedent is they don’t add time back or make clock assumptions in this exact situation. In the Indy game earlier this season the overturned foul on JB occurred at 3.2 (actually earlier but it’s based on when the whistle blew) and when they granted Indy the ball off a clear rebound they had 3.2 on the clock. They don’t run it off based on post-whistle assumptions.
If there is a specific rule that says otherwise I don’t know it, and if so it wasn’t applied the last time this exact situation happened.
They will hide behind a “judgment call” and it will make no sense.
If there is a specific rule that says otherwise I don’t know it, and if so it wasn’t applied the last time this exact situation happened.
They will hide behind a “judgment call” and it will make no sense.
The refs basically let all contact with the body/arms on the ground go... the only fouls they really seemed to call were fouls where arms were outstretched and there was clear contact. Even then KP was clearly fouled late even though he still made the shot. Tatum had to basically fight through his man to get down the lane since the Cavs were allowed to more or less use two hands to control him. He did get to the rim, but often out of control because of the amount of body contact.
What I don't really understand are the reviews now where refs are determining the amount of contact through video.. Zarba's long-winded explanations seem made up.
I also don't think Tatum kicked out his legs in an unnatural way on the last shot... if Garland isn't jumping into Tatum.. then the foot wouldn't have made contact. Not sure it was a foul to begin with (I do think there was a foul on the ground.. either offensive or defensive with the amount of contact there), but if a foul is called there I don't know how that video was enough to overturn it. The clock also not getting set correctly is Zarba and crew not doing their job. After determining there wasn't a foul they then needed to go back and see when the whistle took place. Beyond that.. is it always a jump ball? Because the Celtics had clear possession off of the rebound... but I wonder if I'm getting my sports conflated.
In fairness, I live there, and I question this daily aside from the Taylor ham. For those curious, it's an isolated NBA office near a basically abandoned hotel that you would never guess has the power it does from how unassuming it is.
The result sucked
BUT I want to believe this team learned more tonight with a loss than a 22-point win
BUT I want to believe this team learned more tonight with a loss than a 22-point win
I put that whole 4th Quarter meltdown on Tatum. His energy was terrible, the only time he exerted himself was one possession after he was so pissed about an non call that he played D and forced a turnover. Totally let the refs take him out of the game. Bricking shots, not playing within the offense, and that last possession, oy.
Mazz fell on his sword after the game, implying it was his decision to hold for the final shot, but I thought he was waving Tatum to go faster on that last possession.
He’s Ralph or Potsy or whichever stiff on the Happy Days basketball team it was that hit that lucky shot to win the game…only to humiliatingly return to his stiffy ways in the next game.
Speaking of humiliation, wow did that game suck. But I think a lot of us here have it exactly backward. What that game demonstrated is not how often but rather how *rarely* this team fails to close it out in convincing manner. Terrible outcome tonight but those speculating that some flaw in the team has been exposed are letting their emotions get the better of them. I expect a rapid return to winning ways.
Logic would actually dictate that since Porzingis tipped the ball and it was already in the basket at 0.7 that it was not at zero when he touched it. There is no argument I can see from the facts that the Celtics did not have possession there, nor any rule that would lead to that outcome. As a number of us broke down after the Jaylen play in the Indiana game, there's only two outcomes the rulebook supports: 1) a jump ball when no one has possession or 2) a team has clear possession.
I'd love to hear the NBA explain why a guy actually having the ball here is not possession and a guy not having the ball in the Indiana game is possession.
The reference to 'vibes' earlier is correct---they are not interpreting rules by a set of pre-defined standards (as NFL does, rightly or wrongly) they are making it up as they go.
I am less sure than Jed Zeppelin on the clock---the rulebook allows them to make clock adjustments in the last two minutes on replay, so whether or not it is in the replay rules they can. There could be some interpretation that says they don't make them on an overturned play; however, outside the last two minutes we do regularly see them adding time to the clock on overturns, so it would be odd for that to be the case. As if often true in NBA, we'll see some squirrely description in L2M and no sustainable precedents to interpret in future.
So I missed last night's game. I noted that at one point they were 15-30 from 3, before missing their last 8.
More of a make/miss situation, or bad process? Or a little of both?
More of a make/miss situation, or bad process? Or a little of both?
"What happened in this one meaningless game gives me content that will marinate for days."
Little bit of both, combined with Cleveland’s scrubs going supernova from deep.