2023 Hall of Fame ballot

Sad Sam Jones

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You are a Hall of Famer or you are not.

There's 10 votes, use them on who you think should be in the Hall of Fame.

This is what gets us players like Willie Mays and Ken Groffey Jr not having 100% of the vote, or very worthy players being left off.

The persuasion part is understandable.
Although it doesn't apply to this particular case, in a situation where a voter thinks there are more than 10 valid Hall of Famers on the ballot, I have no problem with casting a vote for the one they think most needs their vote at the cost of the one who least needs it.

As you said, "You are a Hall of Famer or you are not." What percentage of the vote a candidate receives is irrelevant unless it's a matter of 74% or 75%.
 

trekfan55

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Although it doesn't apply to this particular case, in a situation where a voter thinks there are more than 10 valid Hall of Famers on the ballot, I have no problem with casting a vote for the one they think most needs their vote at the cost of the one who least needs it.

As you said, "You are a Hall of Famer or you are not." What percentage of the vote a candidate receives is irrelevant unless it's a matter of 74% or 75%.
Absolutely. But some voters do not use their 10 votes, yet they leave some guy out because he is not a "first ballot" Hall of Famer.
 

E5 Yaz

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I really wish they’d stop sending ballots out to anyone who refuses to vote. Give it to someone willing to participate in the process.
I have no idea whether this is the case here, but if you receive your ballot and don't believe anyone is worthy of a vote, aren't you "participating in the process" by returning it blank? Should voters be forced to select at least a certain amount of players?
 

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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I have no idea whether this is the case here, but if you receive your ballot and don't believe anyone is worthy of a vote, aren't you "participating in the process" by returning it blank? Should voters be forced to select at least a certain amount of players?
1 yr, yes, participating. (No, shouldn't be forced)
3 yrs straight, those voters are just making it about them.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Not just that, but the only players he’s voted for in the past 5 years are Jeter and Rivera.
Based on that, it seems he's not just a small hall guy, he's a teeny-tiny-itty-bitty hall guy as well as an anti-PED suspicions guy. He didn't vote for Ortiz. He didn't vote for Walker. He didn't vote for Mussina. He didn't vote for Edgar Martinez. He didn't vote for Halladay.

He might not vote for anyone for a while in that case. Maybe Beltre next year? Maybe Ichiro in 2025?
 

E5 Yaz

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He might not vote for anyone for a while in that case. Maybe Beltre next year? Maybe Ichiro in 2025?
I think those are the two cases that would best tell what sort of voter he is. Both should be easy first-ballot types. But a voter like Cook balances out those who mark off 10 names every year just because they can under the rules.
Is not voting for anyone any worse than tossing votes to down ballot types who barely belong on the ballot?
 

axx

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Jul 16, 2005
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I don't get the Big Hall people. Lets face it, if you are voting for 10 people... that's too many.

Clearly the voters have spoken and they aren't going to vote in any of the Steroid Guys. The only new guy with a realistic chance is Beltran. And if you won't vote for him, who then?
 

simplicio

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If you want to be a small hall or anti-steroid voter, fine, whatever. The first ballot purity people are clowns though.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I don't get the Big Hall people. Lets face it, if you are voting for 10 people... that's too many.

Clearly the voters have spoken and they aren't going to vote in any of the Steroid Guys. The only new guy with a realistic chance is Beltran. And if you won't vote for him, who then?
“Too many” compared to what? Like they’re not running out of room in Cooperstown. They won’t have to move Cy Young’s plaque to make room for Don Sutton’s. You know who the all-time greats already are, right?

Even in Cooperstown, there are levels.

I’m a big Hall person. I’m not wildly thrilled that Baines is in, but if it means McGriff and Trammel get closer looks and are in, then I’m all for it.

Not everyone so Maddux or Mays or Pedro. I like that the Hall opens its door and recognizes players that were awesome but not game changers. If the bar is set at Aaron and Mantle, it’s going to be a pretty lonely place.

let’s face it, the job of the Baseball Hall of Fame is to get people to travel to upstate New York to relive their childhood. There are fans of Jack Morris or Jim Kaat or Baines who want to be reminded of why they love baseball. And the HoF has been pretty screwed up in terms of who it let’s in since pretty much Day One.

Nothing really changes if Catfish Hunter or Jim Rice have HoF after their autographs. It would be nice if Dewey and Lou Whitaker got inducted or Dave Parker gets in before he dies. I think it’s cool to reward players who have given us so much joy. Put Tiant in and Bobby Grich and others. There’s plenty of room.

Except Curt Schilling. That motherfucker can rot forever.
 

Ale Xander

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If you want to be a small hall or anti-steroid voter, fine, whatever. The first ballot purity people are clowns though.
What's the category for me?

I'm a relatively small hall, but opposite of anti-steroid?


Bonds, Clemens, Manny, Arod
All day every day.
First two should have the same % yes as guys like Cobb and Young

No Baines, no Helton, no Morris, no Trammell etc.
 

simplicio

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I'm with you there. Purporting to celebrate the story of greatness in baseball with Trammell etc instead of Bonds etc is just silly. Just put them their own steroids-are-bad display case or whatever.
 

BoSox Rule

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Obviously Bonds should be in. You guys are missing the boat on Trammell though. He’s basically Larkin, or Jeter without NY and loads of postseason fame.
 

scottyno

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Dec 7, 2008
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I think those are the two cases that would best tell what sort of voter he is. Both should be easy first-ballot types. But a voter like Cook balances out those who mark off 10 names every year just because they can under the rules.
Is not voting for anyone any worse than tossing votes to down ballot types who barely belong on the ballot?
Yes, because voting for down ballot guys who have no chance doesn't hurt anyone, it looks stupid but it's harmless. Not voting for top guys potentially hurts qualified players now if they come up a few votes short, and potentially hurts qualified guys in the future because it creates a logjam on the ballot.
 

scottyno

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GrandSlamPozo

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May 16, 2017
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I don't think Helton's case is nearly as good as Walker's, had 10.9 fewer WAR than Walker despite having ~1400 more plate appearances. I don't think I would vote for him, he was elite for around 5 years but then his power numbers fell off a cliff starting in 2005. Even though he still had a good BA and OBP in the back half of his career that it's hard to give him too much credit during that period for being a low-power first baseman in that era who played half his games at Coors field.
 

InstaFace

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So he's criticized for having too much power at Coors the first half of his career (it was aided by altitude!), and then criticized for having too much of other, non-power skills in the back half of his career? "Because Coors"? He should have had more HRs, but if he did then we'd discount them anyway?

Tough crowd. You made a lot more sense with your first point.
 

GrandSlamPozo

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May 16, 2017
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So he's criticized for having too much power at Coors the first half of his career (it was aided by altitude!), and then criticized for having too much of other, non-power skills in the back half of his career? "Because Coors"? He should have had more HRs, but if he did then we'd discount them anyway?

Tough crowd. You made a lot more sense with your first point.
Not sure how you read my post and thought I was criticizing him for having too much power or other skills LMAO. He's just a notch below HoF worthy in my opinion. If he kept up his level of 2000-04 performance for a couple more years he'd probably be a shoo-in. His 2005-11 slash line of .303/.409/.468 looks impressive out of context but as a first baseman playing in Coors in an era where offense was still inflated (albeit not by as much as the mid 90s through 2004), it doesn't really add to his HoF case.
 

jon abbey

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Not that paintful, since 100% of the results X accumulated thus far already helped Boston, and a large majority of Mookie's did as well.
Maybe the best posting lesson I have ever learned here is that sometimes it is enough just to type out your answer, make sure it is just what you want to say, and then decide not to click 'post reply'. This is a good example, I could explain to you why it is painful to almost every Sox fan but you but I know that you know already. Thanks.
 

scottyno

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Dec 7, 2008
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Maybe the best posting lesson I have ever learned here is that sometimes it is enough just to type out your answer, make sure it is just what you want to say, and then decide not to click 'post reply'. This is a good example, I could explain to you why it is painful to almost every Sox fan but you but I know that you know already. Thanks.
If Bogaerts puts up 30 war during his Padres contract he probably makes the hall of fame while also not being particularly good, which seems decently likely. So in that case not really painful at all.
 

jon abbey

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If Bogaerts puts up 30 war during his Padres contract he probably makes the hall of fame while also not being particularly good, which seems decently likely. So in that case not really painful at all.
I'm giving you a couple of days off for either being tone-deaf or stupid enough to not realize that Bogaerts going to the Hall of Fame presumably in a SD cap would be fucking painful for most people here. I really hope BOS is actually paying you.
 

moondog80

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I'm giving you a couple of days off for either being tone-deaf or stupid enough to not realize that Bogaerts going to the Hall of Fame presumably in a SD cap would be fucking painful for most people here. I really hope BOS is actually paying you.
Good for you. I hate when people don't have the correct opinions.
 

Moosey

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I'm giving you a couple of days off for either being tone-deaf or stupid enough to not realize that Bogaerts going to the Hall of Fame presumably in a SD cap would be fucking painful for most people here. I really hope BOS is actually paying you.
Bolded for emphasis. This is a really classy way to give someone a time out.

Also, he's right, it's not that painful. It's a plaque.
 

Ale Xander

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Not that paintful, since 100% of the results X accumulated thus far already helped Boston, and a large majority of Mookie's did as well.
When Frazee sold Ruth, 100% of the results Ruth accumulated at that point already helped Boston, so I’m not really sure the point.
 

Max Power

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When Frazee sold Ruth, 100% of the results Ruth accumulated at that point already helped Boston, so I’m not really sure the point.
Same for Pujols when he left St. Louis in 2012. Is that still a painful memory for the Cardinals fans? What looks bad today might look very different in just a couple years.
 

jon abbey

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Same for Pujols when he left St. Louis in 2012. Is that still a painful memory for the Cardinals fans? What looks bad today might look very different in just a couple years.
Having been through a really similar thing to Bogaerts with Cano (my favorite Yankee at that point), my experience is that it doesn't matter that much what they do after they leave, as something very different might have happened if they stayed (good or bad), but we are deprived of ever knowing.

And it's funny you mention Pujols, I was just thinking about him a bit earlier. I would say that him going to the Angels probably wasn't very painful for STL fans given his performance there, but then his incredible final hurrah this season once back in STL would make me (as a STL fan) always wonder what would have happened if he had never left.
 

kelpapa

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Having been through a really similar thing to Bogaerts with Cano (my favorite Yankee at that point), my experience is that it doesn't matter that much what they do after they leave, as something very different might have happened if they stayed (good or bad), but we are deprived of ever knowing.

And it's funny you mention Pujols, I was just thinking about him a bit earlier. I would say that him going to the Angels probably wasn't very painful for STL fans given his performance there, but then his incredible final hurrah this season once back in STL would make me (as a STL fan) always wonder what would have happened if he had never left.
I don't think you're going to get much push back given you just suspended someone for politely disagreeing with your incredibly snarky post.
 

jon abbey

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I personally don’t care at all about the Hall of Fame, I have never watched a ceremony or been there. Betts and/or Bogaerts giving an induction speech with a non-Sox hat on (presumably) would be painful for the majority of Sox fans, I don’t even see how that’s arguable even if you personally wouldn’t mind. I feel like even continued discussion about it here is painful and unnecessary.
 

brandonchristensen

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Feb 4, 2012
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I personally don’t care at all about the Hall of Fame, I have never watched a ceremony or been there. Betts and/or Bogaerts giving an induction speech with a non-Sox hat on would be painful for the majority of Sox fans, I don’t even see how that’s arguable even if you personally wouldn’t mind.
Don’t worry. We all 100% agree with you on this.
 

Marciano490

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Nov 4, 2007
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I must be an outlier too; Xander was great here. Won some World Series. Seems like a good dude. Never promised me a damn thing. If he wants to go take an extra $100 million to go to a better team in what’s probably a better city, and ends up making the Hall, I’ll be happy for him the same way I’d be happy for a coworker or colleague moving on to different challenges.
 

kelpapa

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Feb 15, 2010
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I must be an outlier too; Xander was great here. Won some World Series. Seems like a good dude. Never promised me a damn thing. If he wants to go take an extra $100 million to go to a better team in what’s probably a better city, and ends up making the Hall, I’ll be happy for him the same way I’d be happy for a coworker or colleague moving on to different challenges.
Careful...
 

jon abbey

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I feel like people are not paying attention to scottyno's full body of work, these things aren't done in a vacuum or just by one person, no matter how it may seem.
 

kelpapa

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Feb 15, 2010
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I feel like people are not paying attention to scottyno's full body of work, these things aren't done in a vacuum or just by one person, no matter how it may seem.
I'm giving you a couple of days off for either being tone-deaf or stupid enough to not realize that Bogaerts going to the Hall of Fame presumably in a SD cap would be fucking painful for most people here. I really hope BOS is actually paying you.
 

brandonchristensen

Loves Aaron Judge
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Feb 4, 2012
36,143
I feel like people are not paying attention to scottyno's full body of work, these things aren't done in a vacuum or just by one person, no matter how it may seem.
Scottyno and I have never gotten along, but sometimes mods are a little quick to go full hallway monitor. Body of work or not.

Xander going to the hall either way means nothing to me personally. I like him, but this new era of players makes it very hard to get too attached to.
 

InstaFace

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Sep 27, 2016
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Yeah my favorite player of all time was Pedro, he left after an acrimonious contract dispute where he felt disrespected, took a bigger deal from a New York team... and still ended up going into the Hall with a Red Sox hat and is very much a part of the Sox alumni community. It was painful right then (and we mighta stood a chance in '05 if he'd stayed), but we all got over it and look back now on great times together.

That scenario might not happen, and PJF is entitled to feel how he feels. But there's plenty of opportunity to have Mookie and/or Xander go into the Hall as Red Sox, or with very good feelings towards the Red Sox and RSN.

Either way, I'm not sure Scotty crossed any line worthy of being a line. I'm not sure I buy his posts' reasoning, but the way it looked to me, he's just making baseball posts on a baseball board.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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I'm not sure this particular case was worthy of a timeout, but the guy has an unhealthy cult-like obsession with constantly defending Chaim Bloom's perfect genius. I have no dog in that fight, but it would be nice if the constant bickering on the topic could at least not spill over into the MLB forum since it already pollutes most of the Red Sox discussions.
 

moondog80

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Sep 20, 2005
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I'm not sure this particular case was worthy of a timeout, but the guy has an unhealthy cult-like obsession with constantly defending Chaim Bloom's perfect genius. I have no dog in that fight, but it would be nice if the constant bickering on the topic could at least not spill over into the MLB forum since it already pollutes most of the Red Sox discussions.
Are people who have an unhealthy cult-like obsession with constantly attacking Chaim Bloom going to be held to the same standard?
 

InstaFace

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Shaughnessy is as-expected, but what's gotten into Hohler? A blank ballot? Seriously? edit: Last year, Hohler voted only for Bonds, Clemens and Ortiz; he dropped what had previously been a vote for Schilling. His ballot was not public in 2021, and in 2020 it was only for Bonds, Clemens, Schilling and Jeter. I guess it's a protest, maybe? Guess I'd considered him a bit more grounded, up till now.

And I'm not sure how Manny can hold much hope if he can only get 2/6 votes from Boston.