2023-2024 Women’s College Basketball

[riboflav]

Caitlin is the better player. The gravity alone is enough beyond the vision, the ball handling, the passing skills, the ability to shoot against contests, and everything else.

However, Paige is the clear cut number two (none of this maybe top-5 crap. She'll be the number one pick in the W next year). JuJu will be right there with her and may pass her in a couple years but Paige is in a league of her own as second best right now. Heck, ask JuJu. Paige is a great on- and off-ball defender. She is not perfectly positionless but she can play all five roles from competently to elite. Advanced metrics, which this site tends to emphasize, love her. For example, this is Paige compared to Caitlin going into last weekend. This is not to say Paige > Caitlin as much as it is to say Paige > the rest of the field

PPP
P: 1.20
C: 1.04

PPSA
P: 1.30
C: 1.23

EFG
P: 61.2%
C: 57.4%

TOV
P: 7.7%
C: 15.8%

Ast/TOV
P: 2.71
C: 1.85

STL
P: 3.4%
C: 2.4%

BLK
P: 4.8%
C: 1.5%

OFF Rating
P: 130.4 (WOW)
C: 122

DEF Rating
P: 77.5
C: 89.4

WS/40
P: .30
C: .30

 

[BaseballJones]

ESPN crunched the numbers on Clark v. Bueckers.

Their conclusion?

"Ultimately, the idea that Bueckers is nearly as good offensively is hard for me to justify. Bueckers is outstanding in her own right, but Clark is carrying one of the nation's heaviest offensive burdens with unparalleled efficiency, producing the nation's best offense.

Although Auriemma is undoubtedly right that Bueckers has the more complete game, Clark's strengths are so exceptional and in such key areas that she has been the best player in America this season -- at least until we see the two players go head-to-head Friday night."


This is how I view it. Clark carries a greater burden and is a superior offensive player, but Bueckers is also a phenomenal (and more efficient) offensive player. But Clark is a generational offensive player. Bueckers is far better defensively, which makes her a more well-rounded player, but since we tend to weigh offense more than defense (and it's easier to quantify and at times easier to simply observe with the naked eye), Clark's generational offensive talent is enough to call her the best player in the college game right now. But as the article points out, there's a legit case to be made for Bueckers too, so it's not a ludicrous thought to favor Bueckers overall.

 

[bosox188]

What does anyone have to do for the NCAA to put even an ounce of effort into women's basketball? This is the most popular star and probably biggest moneymaker they've ever had, and she has to compete with a fucking forklift?

 

[riboflav]

What does anyone have to do for the NCAA to put even an ounce of effort into women's basketball? This is the most popular star and probably biggest moneymaker they've ever had, and she has to compete with a fucking forklift?

The amount of resources put into the women's vs. the men's game has always been pathetic and continues to be so. There is, however, more awareness of the inequity now and has been growing since the viral video during the pandemic of then-Oregon player, Sedona Prince, pointing out the stark discrepancy in practice facilities between the men and women. Of course, the men's game is more popular, even now, but it also makes it hard to compete when the challenges (resources) are stacked against you. If nothing else, I hope sincerely that Clark's emergence and transcendence across gender lines continues to call attention to the difference and prods the NCAA to act more equitably for women both in money and in tv showcases/contracts.

 

[riboflav]

It's even worse at the high school level even here in a basketball hotbed of the DC suburbs where several girls' coaches don't have offices and many girls teams don't have dedicated locker rooms whereas the boys do. One administrator I worked for still referred to the aux gym as the girls gym (this was 2019).

 

[reggiecleveland]

In Canada it is the opposite in many ways. If the women's team is more successful there is no qualms giving them more money, etc. If the men's team is better it is suicide for an AD to not provide equal budgets.

As long as the TV audiences are like this year the NCAA will throw money at the women's game. I expect in time the women's NCAA game may be a bigger deal than the men. The best male players will always be one and done. The incentive for the best female players to stay in college. Caitlin Clark may earn less money by going pro. It is a fools errand to ever expect the WNBA to compete with the NBA, and as a business it is ridiculous for players in league that loses money to expect same money as a league that generates billions in profits. I also think there is a 50-50 chance the WNBA blows the chance to capitalize on CC's popularity. The chance the resentment of the current WNBA players towards a straight white media darling bubbles over into some (more) ugly bad publicity is pretty good.

But the same way the NBA has destroyed much of the rooting interests of the men's game, the chance to develop rivalries like LSU/Iowa, with actually the same players is marketing gold. I was far more interested in seeing LSU Iowa than the 30th reboot of NC-Duke men's games. Similar to how the Olympics and word cup generate equal, or at least closer to equal interest and opportunities for female athletes the NCAA hoops hype could belong to women. An example to explain this is that the most accomplished Senior in the Men's final four probably won't even make the NBA, while the best female players is the consensus #1 pick.

 

[InstaFace]

Those of you who can't wait for tomorrow (tonight) 's games will greatly enjoy this long read by Wright Thompson, who was more or less embedded with the Iowa team for the last two years and seems to be on "confidante" levels with Clark's family and the Iowa team staff.

https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39740282/caitlin-clark-iowa-2024-ncaa-women-basketball-tournament-ready-march

I don't know which anecdote is my favorite, there are so many to choose from: the opening one about the Booze Cruise, or Clark talking about how she wishes she'd been recruited by UConn (and then how validating it was for Geno to come seek her out after her freshman season, to talk about what he saw in her). Maybe the tailgate for the game (exhibition) in the football stadium, or the travails of Addi O'Grady trying to earn Caitlin's trust. But it's all great stuff for those trying to get a handle on a growing legend, and to know the young woman in the middle of it all just a little bit.

 

[scottyno]

But the same way the NBA has destroyed much of the rooting interests of the men's game, the chance to develop rivalries like LSU/Iowa, with actually the same players is marketing gold. I was far more interested in seeing LSU Iowa than the 30th reboot of NC-Duke men's games. Similar to how the Olympics and word cup generate equal, or at least closer to equal interest and opportunities for female athletes the NCAA hoops hype could belong to women. An example to explain this is that the most accomplished Senior in the Men's final four probably won't even make the NBA, while the best female players is the consensus #1 pick.

Pretty sure Zach Edey, who is projected in the mid to late 1st round in pretty much every mock draft, and is the best player in college basketball, will make the NBA

 

[reggiecleveland]

Pretty sure Zach Edey, who is projected in the mid to late 1st round in pretty much every mock draft, and is the best player in college basketball, will make the NBA

Probably, but the NBA is not excited about him. He may never be a starter. He isn't near the level of the top women;s player impact on the NBA. The top NCAA senior or even Jr has not been the #1 pick for a while.

 

[BaseballJones]

As someone who has long been a huge fan of, and advocate for, women’s basketball (and women’s athletics in general), I am so so happy that the nation is finally giving women’s basketball the viewership it deserves. It is true that the revenue for the NBA will always dwarf that of the WNBA, and pay for players and coaches will reflect that, but I’m so glad women’s hoops is getting more and more popular.

 

[scottyno]

Probably, but the NBA is not excited about him. He may never be a starter. He isn't near the level of the top women;s player impact on the NBA. The top NCAA senior or even Jr has not been the #1 pick for a while.

Glad we've now moved the bar in several hours from "probably won't even make the nba" to "may never be a starter". The original claim was almost as bad a take as claiming that the world cups generate close to equal interest.

 

[DJnVa]

 

[BaseballJones]

Doesn't seem like her experience at LSU was all that great.

 

[Rusty Gate]

Those of you who can't wait for tomorrow (tonight) 's games will greatly enjoy this long read by Wright Thompson, who was more or less embedded with the Iowa team for the last two years and seems to be on "confidante" levels with Clark's family and the Iowa team staff.

https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39740282/caitlin-clark-iowa-2024-ncaa-women-basketball-tournament-ready-march

I don't know which anecdote is my favorite, there are so many to choose from: the opening one about the Booze Cruise, or Clark talking about how she wishes she'd been recruited by UConn (and then how validating it was for Geno to come seek her out after her freshman season, to talk about what he saw in her). Maybe the tailgate for the game (exhibition) in the football stadium, or the travails of Addi O'Grady trying to earn Caitlin's trust. But it's all great stuff for those trying to get a handle on a growing legend, and to know the young woman in the middle of it all just a little bit.

I'll say it was long. Was starting to seem repetitive, and I was hoping I was reaching the end. Then I got to Part 2. Skimmed the rest. They ought to publish a Reader's Digest version.

 

[InstaFace]

Yeah I literally fell asleep in my recliner last night while reading it. But I also enjoyed reading it so much that after stirring, I read the whole thing before going off to bed.

There are repetitive bits, and there are somewhat campy or hagiographic bits (he's a little close to the subject, though not too close), but on the whole the lens into her life and mind and her team's cohesion and story arc is really good stuff. I'm glad they gave him permission to write 12,000 words or whatever and put it out there.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Young guy I work with bumped into the UConn team after dinner in the Cleveland burbs yesterday. They were waiting for their bus, and pretty much no one was around. He got a picture with them and said they couldn't have been nicer. Very cool experience for him.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Glad we've now moved the bar in several hours from "probably won't even make the nba" to "may never be a starter". The original claim was almost as bad a take as claiming that the world cups generate close to equal interest.

Do you have a point? Is Zach Edey as famous as Caitlin Clark? If that is what you are contending then you truly disagree and are not just nitpicking.

In North America women's national team soccer is very popular. The USA women made the case for equal pay and it was popular, at least in the media. Those opportunities are much greater than for other female athletes. As I mentioned abkut the WNBA, I do not see women's sports gaining parity with men's sports in popularity or financially. But, NCAA women's basketball has a chance to sustain popularity since players stay in school and build a following. It reminds me of the days when the NBA and NFL were beginning and players were bigger celebrities in college than as pros. But, I do not see the pro women's leagues growing to equal the hype, revenue of NCAA and once every four years national team competitions. A lot of this hype is only in North America, maybe Western Europe where female athletes get a better chance and support than the rest of the world.

 

[McBride11]

I gotta figure Uconn - Iowa beats Iowa - LSU numbers for viewing.
I never seek out NCAAWB, but tonite I set aside to watch this matchup

 

[tims4wins]

I gotta figure Uconn - Iowa beats Iowa - LSU numbers for viewing.
I never seek out NCAAWB, but tonite I set aside to watch this matchup

I dunno, 3pm Saturday vs. 9pm Friday makes a difference. Also the LSU-Iowa game was a national title rematch and had the famous shade at the end of the game.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

I dunno, 3pm Saturday vs. 9pm Friday makes a difference. Also the LSU-Iowa game was a national title rematch and had the famous shade at the end of the game.

It was Monday night, not Saturday afternoon

 

[JOBU]

I gotta figure Uconn - Iowa beats Iowa - LSU numbers for viewing.
I never seek out NCAAWB, but tonite I set aside to watch this matchup

I knew the numbers were going to be huge when my sister asked me how she could watch the “Caitlin Clark game” on her tablet. My sister has never given two rips about any kind of sports and doesn’t have cable. I believe she bought an espn game pass app or whatever on her tablet so she could stream it to her tv. Assuming she will tonight as well. We grew up in CT and my sister might not even be aware that UConn is the other team.

Also when my mom asked me about her a few weeks ago… I knew it was gonna a bigger deal. The Clark phenomenon is going well outside the game of basketball and sports in general if shes on both their (mom + sisters) radar.

 

[tims4wins]

It was Monday night, not Saturday afternoon

Oh right I was thinking of the Sweet 16, my bad

 

[Van Everyman]

Cardoso is very large.

 

[Van Everyman]

“Cardoso should pick on somebody her own size!”

- Kim Mulkey, somewhere

 

[canderson]

I hope Cardoso can come back. This is a game- changing injury.

 

[Ale Xander]

I'm shocked this is so close

 

[Van Everyman]

The Cardoso layups standing right under the hoop seems like something you’d want to guard against.

 

[Vandalman]

I'm shocked this is so close

Then Cinderella ran away.

 

[OCST]

I'm shocked this is so close

Not anymore.

 

[Ale Xander]

that escalated quickly

 

[Eastchop]

The Cardoso layups standing right under the hoop seems like something you’d want to guard against.

She’s 6’7”, easier said than done?

 

[InstaFace]

I checked in before tucking the kids into bed, saw that it was 39-31 with 9 mins left in the 3rd, and that Cardoso had just gone out with an injury. So I figured "hey, close game, nice".

So I just got downstairs, settled in, turned it on, and, uh.... yikes.

Guess the undercard bout looked like a fair fight for 2 rounds, but there was a KO in the 3rd.

 

[Van Everyman]

She’s 6’7”, easier said than done?

For sure and I’m mostly kidding. But Baldwin has kind of just let her establish position on way too many possessions.

 

[joe dokes]

Only just realized the final is at 3pm sunday not primetime. Thats sorta shitty.

 

[McBride11]

Well, this escalated quickly

 

[Ferm Sheller]

Only just realized the final is at 3pm sunday not primetime. Thats sorta shitty.

Some of the best Celts Finals games were in the afternoon in the 80s.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

SC will win the game but is losing players.

 

[InstaFace]

I knew the numbers were going to be huge when my sister asked me how she could watch the “Caitlin Clark game” on her tablet. My sister has never given two rips about any kind of sports and doesn’t have cable. I believe she bought an espn game pass app or whatever on her tablet so she could stream it to her tv. Assuming she will tonight as well. We grew up in CT and my sister might not even be aware that UConn is the other team.

Also when my mom asked me about her a few weeks ago… I knew it was gonna a bigger deal. The Clark phenomenon is going well outside the game of basketball and sports in general if shes on both their (mom + sisters) radar.

This is awesome.

 

[DJnVa]

"The player no one has ever heard of before... Caitlin Clark"

 

[BaseballJones]

The three all Americans in this game have done diddly squat. (Clark, Bueckers, and Edwards)

 

[LynnRice75]

The three all Americans in this game have done diddly squat. (Clark, Bueckers, and Edwards)

Clark seems to be playing carelessly. Several poorly executed or planned passes. Hope she starts hitting some shots soon.

 

[curly2]

The three all Americans in this game have done diddly squat. (Clark, Bueckers, and Edwards)

Edwards has 3 assists, 4 steals, 1 block and no turnovers.

 

[luckiestman]

Refball

 

[JokersWildJIMED]

Clark playing like she has money on UConn. Shocked to see such careless basketball at this level.

 

[luckiestman]

These calls suck

 

[BaseballJones]

Edwards has 3 assists, 4 steals, 1 block and no turnovers.

She got better after I posted that.

 

[Van Everyman]

Clark seems to be playing carelessly. Several poorly executed or planned passes. Hope she starts hitting some shots soon.

My daughter was saying that the one weakness in Clark’s game seems to be controlling her emotions. The defense has been good – yes, Muhl but also team-wide. But she’s letting it frustrate her and take her out of possessions.

 

[BaseballJones]

These calls suck

The fouls on Arnold have been total BS - one literally nobody touched the Iowa player at all and the other was an illegal screen with barely any contact. And Muhl’s first foul when she denied Clark there was also literally zero contact. I’m sure Iowa has gotten hosed a couple of times too but this is ridiculous officiating.

 

[JokersWildJIMED]

Clark has been absolutely horrible. Can’t hit the side of a barn. Sure UConn’s defense has been good, but Iowa and Clark have missed shots they always hit…plus mind blowing turnovers. Amazing it’s only a 6 point game.

 

[JokersWildJIMED]

The fouls on Arnold have been total BS - one literally nobody touched the Iowa player at all and the other was an illegal screen with barely any contact. And Muhl’s first foul when she denied Clark there was also literally zero contact. I’m sure Iowa has gotten hosed a couple of times too but this is ridiculous officiating.

The officiating has been fine. They are letting a ton of stuff go, and that has favored UConn and their aggressiveness, despite a couple of obvious misses.