2023-2024 General NBA Season Thread

lovegtm

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Brooklyn must be setting some kind of record for giving away top-3 picks to other teams.

"We'll be good forever with Harden"
 

ifmanis5

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Maybe LeBron was in Cleveland to recruit Mitchell last night?
View: https://twitter.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1790443485322957139

The Lakers are expected to ‘at the front of the line’ to acquire Donovan Mitchell this summer, per
@ByJasonLloyd “If Mitchell doesn’t sign an extension with Cleveland this summer, the Cavs will have to explore trade options — and one of the teams standing at the front of the line will be the Lakers. It’s possible, given Mitchell’s current condition with his calf, that he has already played his final game in a Cavs jersey.”
 

lovegtm

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Would make sense. They have the quality assets to let Cleveland recoup some of the value it paid for Donovan in the first place, and pivot right back to being good around Garland and Mobley.

Could do something like spin the Lakers' assets into KAT if Minnesota has to cut costs.
 

Kliq

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What assets do the Lakers have? Not sure how many of their picks they still control.
 

Cellar-Door

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What assets do the Lakers have? Not sure how many of their picks they still control.
likely they have #17 this year, 2029 1st and some swaps to offer, plus Reaves?

If for some reason the Pelicans want #17, then they would have 2025 1st, 2029 1st and swaps.

Edit- they can trade 2031 1st as well
 

Auger34

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likely they have #17 this year, 2029 1st and some swaps to offer, plus Reaves?

If for some reason the Pelicans want #17, then they would have 2025 1st, 2029 1st and swaps.

Edit- they can trade 2031 1st as well
I guess it would be Russell, Reaves, then all of the 1sts and swaps. Not a bad offer, not particularly great
 

timelysarcasm

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likely they have #17 this year, 2029 1st and some swaps to offer, plus Reaves?

If for some reason the Pelicans want #17, then they would have 2025 1st, 2029 1st and swaps.

Edit- they can trade 2031 1st as well
Sounds like their typical pu pu platter of mid. Not sure how they get Mitchell with that "haul," but stranger things have happened.

I wouldn't call that quality assets though.
 

Kliq

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I don't think it's nothing, but I think someone looking to land Mitchell could offer a lot more. A lot would depend on if Mitchell would sign an extension with the team is being traded to, if he is, it will take more to get him.
 

Cellar-Door

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Sounds like their typical pu pu platter of mid. Not sure how they get Mitchell with that "haul," but stranger things have happened.

I wouldn't call that quality assets though.
It's not great, and I don't see any reason for CLE to trade Mitchell, but....

3 1sts, 2 swaps, some okay young players is basically what it cost CLE to get him 2 years ago (Markanen then broke out), so it's pretty reasonable return if Mitchell tells you he won't extend. The filler would probably include DLo and Hood-Schifino?
 

RorschachsMask

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I don't think it's nothing, but I think someone looking to land Mitchell could offer a lot more. A lot would depend on if Mitchell would sign an extension with the team is being traded to, if he is, it will take more to get him.
The Cavs will get a HAUL for him, if it’s to a team he wants.
 

nattysez

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I don't think it's nothing, but I think someone looking to land Mitchell could offer a lot more. A lot would depend on if Mitchell would sign an extension with the team is being traded to, if he is, it will take more to get him.
What are the obvious fits for him other than LAL, meaning teams he'd be willing to be traded to that are a good fit and have some assets?
SAS if they decide to give Wemby some real help and Mitchell is open to it?
MIA?
ORL if they want another scorer to pair with Banchero?
ATL as part of a major reshuffle where they trade Dejounte (or even Trae and Dejounte) and build the team around Mitchell and their bigs?
NYK if they decide he's the best option to give Brunson scoring help and they can move Randle (this would be insane, IMO)?
 

RSC3000

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The Cavs will get a HAUL for him, if it’s to a team he wants.
Unless he demands LAL or bust(which isn't out of the question), I just see a few other teams who can easily put together a more appealing package. Just depends on what Cleveland wants to do. Houston/OKC/Knicks off the top of my head for players + tons of picks. ATL + NOLA could offer Murray / Ingram and pick(s) - or maybe something that turns into a three-way deal.

Definitely would add in Orlando as well, SAS has the pieces + picks but I'll be surprised if he wants to give them some time to develop.
 

InstaFace

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He's 27, not 33, I have to think he'd look at SAS and see a legendary coach re-energized, that Wemby is basically ready to win now, and that they'd complement each other very well. Not sure Mitchell is necessarily Pop's cup of tea, but if they got him, they could probably avoid having to get a true star PG in there, and instead get a defense-first PG who's a good distributor and doesn't need to be a primary scoring option - a Derrick White type, really.
 

RSC3000

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He's 27, not 33, I have to think he'd look at SAS and see a legendary coach re-energized, that Wemby is basically ready to win now, and that they'd complement each other very well. Not sure Mitchell is necessarily Pop's cup of tea, but if they got him, they could probably avoid having to get a true star PG in there, and instead get a defense-first PG who's a good distributor and doesn't need to be a primary scoring option - a Derrick White type, really.
I agree it could be an intriguing fit if Pop is interested, I'm just skeptical either side would be though. The rest of the roster still needs a lot of work even if Wemby is all world.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't think it's nothing, but I think someone looking to land Mitchell could offer a lot more. A lot would depend on if Mitchell would sign an extension with the team is being traded to, if he is, it will take more to get him.
This right here. Mitchell (errrr, his agents) can control his destination by making it known that he will only sign an extension with the Lakers thus forcing the Cavs into a corner….if this is truly what he wants.
 

PedroKsBambino

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This right here. Mitchell (errrr, his agents) can control his destination by making it known that he will only sign an extension with the Lakers thus forcing the Cavs into a corner….if this is truly what he wants.
Agree with all of that.

Isn't the better question "if you were Lebron, would you rather play with MItchell, Mobley, Garland, Allen and the Cavs roster (plus a competent GM and coach) or try to attract Mitchell to the Lakers" though?That is the one city he could sign as a MLE and you kind of couldn't blame him. I don't expect it, but man would it be an awesome story---and not necessarily bad for him basketball wise either.

They'd surely draft Bronny if he told them to, as well.
 

Ed Hillel

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This right here. Mitchell (errrr, his agents) can control his destination by making it known that he will only sign an extension with the Lakers thus forcing the Cavs into a corner….if this is truly what he wants.
Kind of, though LA is really on a 1 year window if he’s going to LA for a title, so Cleveland can probably call that bluff.
 

the moops

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Probably because they’ve drastically underachieved, Mobley hasn’t progressed, and they can’t figure out how to play their four best players at the same time. I’m surprised they didn’t do this last year, TBH.
I think they may have overachieved if anything. Two good to great guards, two excellent big defenders who can't shoot, and no 3 and D wings of note is a recipe for a a good but not great team.
 

Cellar-Door

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Word in the followup stories is Mitchell wants him out.

I think he's a perfectly fine coach. He took them from 13th to the playoffs (with 2nd year Garland, rookie Mobley not much else) got 4th and 3rd seeds in the two Mitchell years.

He's kind of cursed by the roster. They built "what if the Jazz but worse" there. Mitchell Garland is not a winning backcourt in the NBA playoffs, and Allen/Mobley isn't an offensive frontcourt that makes that much sense. They built a roster with no wings, in a conference and league where Wings are massively important.
 

Kliq

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I think they may have overachieved if anything. Two good to great guards, two excellent big defenders who can't shoot, and no 3 and D wings of note is a recipe for a a good but not great team.
Yeah, I'm neutral on Bickerstaff getting fired but not sure if they underachieved given the personnel and who they were competing against. They did get worked by the Knicks last year, but losing to the Celtics in the second round, with a completed depleted team, isn't really underachieving imo, and the personnel on the team is a mess.

If I'm the Cavs, I'd be very concerned about how frequently Garland and Mobley were non-factors offensively during the playoffs. Those guys are the core of the team and they didn't overly impress me this season.
 

Justthetippett

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Word in the followup stories is Mitchell wants him out.

I think he's a perfectly fine coach. He took them from 13th to the playoffs (with 2nd year Garland, rookie Mobley not much else) got 4th and 3rd seeds in the two Mitchell years.

He's kind of cursed by the roster. They built "what if the Jazz but worse" there. Mitchell Garland is not a winning backcourt in the NBA playoffs, and Allen/Mobley isn't an offensive frontcourt that makes that much sense. They built a roster with no wings, in a conference and league where Wings are massively important.
If I'm a Cavs fan, then I am just wondering what the plan is. If they need to decide between Mitchell/Garland and Allen/Mobley, then I'm not sure where this decision fits. JBB is a good-not-great coach, so not irreplaceable by any means, but he had some decent success. Are they going to turn themselves inside out to appease Mitchell? That's a bit risky given how fickle NBA superstars are these days.
 

128

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Probably because they’ve drastically underachieved, Mobley hasn’t progressed, and they can’t figure out how to play their four best players at the same time. I’m surprised they didn’t do this last year, TBH.
Maybe it won't last, but Mobley made a huge jump in the Boston series.
 

cheech13

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I think they may have overachieved if anything. Two good to great guards, two excellent big defenders who can't shoot, and no 3 and D wings of note is a recipe for a a good but not great team.
Levert, Strus, Okoro, Niang and Wade are all perfectly competent NBA rotation players. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say Cleveland is the second most talented roster in the East, but the on court has been mostly meh the last two years. JB might not be the problem but I also don’t think he was good enough to be protected either especially when the star players maybe wanted him gone.
 

Auger34

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Levert, Strus, Okoro, Niang and Wade are all perfectly competent NBA rotation players. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say Cleveland is the second most talented roster in the East, but the on court has been mostly meh the last two years. JB might not be the problem but I also don’t think he was good enough to be protected either especially when the star players maybe wanted him gone.
And, based off of reports, the GM didn't like him/wasn't on the same page with him either. Mix all those things together and you get fired
 

the moops

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Levert, Strus, Okoro, Niang and Wade are all perfectly competent NBA rotation players.
Absolutely, but they are not starter caliber on a championship contender, especially considering the other 4 and the skills/deficiencies they have. I think Cleveland kinda performed exactly how you would expect them to
 

ElUno20

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In the stupid question category so dont kill me.

I have a question for the nba savants here. It *feels* like players are better, more accolades, accomplished earlier. Emphasis on feels. I feel like the top 15-20 in the prior generations took longer to develop/growing pain years. Luka, Ant, JT, etc were pretty quickly elite.

Do you think that'll translate to shorter lengths of greatness/eliteness/shorter primes? I dont follow soccer like i used to but there always felt like a slew of great young players and then by their mid to late 20s it would be time for the next crop.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Probably because they’ve drastically underachieved, Mobley hasn’t progressed, and they can’t figure out how to play their four best players at the same time. I’m surprised they didn’t do this last year, TBH.
Wow I don’t think they have underachieved at all. JBB took over a train wreck and got that team to 51 wins last year prior to being decimated with injuries this season. Garland and Mitchell missed like 30 games each, Allen missed the playoffs, they had bench guys out, etc. I was going to say that this sounds like a Mitchell (Giannis) move where he has leverage and wants to bring his guy in for him to stay. Smart move to him use that leverage I’d like was said above this is the cause….and it sure seems it.
 

snowmanny

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Also, given they tanked into the 4 seed, it seemed as if their goal was to win one playoff round. Which they did.
 

InstaFace

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In the stupid question category so dont kill me.

I have a question for the nba savants here. It *feels* like players are better, more accolades, accomplished earlier. Emphasis on feels. I feel like the top 15-20 in the prior generations took longer to develop/growing pain years. Luka, Ant, JT, etc were pretty quickly elite.

Do you think that'll translate to shorter lengths of greatness/eliteness/shorter primes? I dont follow soccer like i used to but there always felt like a slew of great young players and then by their mid to late 20s it would be time for the next crop.
So firstly what I'd note is that soccer players' careers have gotten longer. Outfield players are staying productive into their early and even mid 30s much more often, to say nothing of goalkeepers. Same with tennis players, where the elite are no longer done by 35. Better training, better diets, better understanding of injuries and recovery from them, etc. So there is just a general trend of careers lasting longer, which in the NBA is exemplified by Lebron James having literally the best season a 39-year-old has ever had, arguably the only decent to good season a 39-year-old has ever had*. And one effect that has in leagues is that it's harder to break in, because top talent is retiring less, so there are fewer spots newly available each year.

It has also had a slight effect of raising the bar for the level a new player needs to be at in order to break in and make it in the league. But these are, by definition, the marginal players - the ones that could make it or not, but they're not on a fast track to stardom or anything.

There's also an impact on the stars who are up for the accolades you mention. When your all-NBA teams (so, "still in their primes", really) include a 36yo Steph Curry, 39yo Lebron James, almost-33yo Kawhi Leonard, 35yo Kevin Durant, etc (and last year, add then-33yo Jimmy Butler, then-32yo Damian Lillard, the year before a then-37yo Chris Paul, then-32yo DeRozan, and so on), there's less room for young talent to reach the levels required to get those flowers. Compare to 30 years ago (to ease my math-ing), the 1993-94 team included the following people aged 32+: John Stockton (just turned 32), 34yo Dominique Wilkins, and that's it.

All of this is independent of any other effect that might be helping or hurting new stars breaking into the league in terms of them achieving personal or team success.

And it also means that no issues of players "running up their odometers" seem to be effecting a shorter length of greatness / eliteness. If anything, the evidence is the opposite: the greater lengths of careers, and portions of those careers in which they have success, enabled by better training, medicine, and discipline of personal habits.

If there are any other effects at play, in terms of (say) greater learning curve required in order to be able to reach the levels required of a star, they are swamped by that longevity effect, imo.

* Kareem was an all-star at ages 39, 40 and 41, but his last all-NBA year was age 38. Robert Parish was still useful but no longer a star at 39 (and at 40 he kinda fell way off). Vince Carter won 6MOY at age 40, somehow, but was playing 16 minutes per game the 2 years before and after that season. Dirk Nowitzki was still very good at 39, hadn't hit a cliff yet, but was playing <25 mpg at that point, and his last all-NBA season was age 33. Lebron still playing 35 mpg at an all-NBA level at age 39 is really unprecedented.
 

Cellar-Door

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Maybe it won't last, but Mobley made a huge jump in the Boston series.
Mobley has quietly improved across a bunch of categories year over year in his young career (AST%, TRB%, TS%) he's a really good player, not sure playign with Mitchell and Garland is ever going to let him show as much as he could elsewhere
 

InstaFace

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Really pisses me off that I have to raise my level of respect for Dwyane Wade.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40205465/dwyane-wade-inspired-daughter-unveils-new-transgender-youth-support-community

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Dwyane Wade, inspired by daughter, unveils new transgender youth support community

MIAMI BEACH, Fla. -- NBA Hall of Famer Dwyane Wade was back in South Florida on Thursday to do battle again.

He spent more than 14 seasons as a guard for the Miami Heat, winning three championships and seeing Miami-Dade County nicknamed "Wade County," and he still leads the franchise in everything from points and rebounds to personal fouls. But the fight he outlined Thursday at the Elevate Prize Foundation's Make Good Famous Summit, after receiving the nonprofit's Elevate Prize Catalyst Award, might be the most personal of all.

"We've done so many great things here, so it wasn't easy to leave," Wade told The Associated Press in an interview before the award ceremony. "But the community wasn't here for Zaya, so the community wasn't here for us."

Wade's daughter, Zaya, who turns 17 next week, came out as transgender in 2020 in the midst of anti-trans legislation in Florida and other states that prompted many trans adults to flee the state. The Wade family sold their Florida home last year and moved to California.

In accepting the award, Wade shared it with Zaya and credited her with inspiring the creation of Translatable, a new online community designed to support transgender children and their families.

"The question was presented to her as, 'If you have one thing that you want to see change in this community, what would it be?'" Wade recalled. "And, for her, it goes right to parents. It goes right to the adults. It goes right to us. It's not the kids. It's us. And so she wanted to create a space that felt safe for parents and their kids. That's what Translatable is, and it's her baby."
...
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Why can't it just be someone goofy and lovable like Shaq?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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SSS to be sure — but he handled the pressure really well, and in that final game, I think we saw who he can be at his best. I, for one, am keeping a closer eye on him next season.
Yeah but the Cs also left him alone in 1 on 1 coverage assuming that the quality of BOS's defenders + the quality of BOS's offense, Mobley wasn't going to beat them by himself. That's not how most teams play defense these days.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Really pisses me off that I have to raise my level of respect for Dwyane Wade.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40205465/dwyane-wade-inspired-daughter-unveils-new-transgender-youth-support-community

---
Dwyane Wade, inspired by daughter, unveils new transgender youth support community

MIAMI BEACH, Fla. -- NBA Hall of Famer Dwyane Wade was back in South Florida on Thursday to do battle again.

He spent more than 14 seasons as a guard for the Miami Heat, winning three championships and seeing Miami-Dade County nicknamed "Wade County," and he still leads the franchise in everything from points and rebounds to personal fouls. But the fight he outlined Thursday at the Elevate Prize Foundation's Make Good Famous Summit, after receiving the nonprofit's Elevate Prize Catalyst Award, might be the most personal of all.

"We've done so many great things here, so it wasn't easy to leave," Wade told The Associated Press in an interview before the award ceremony. "But the community wasn't here for Zaya, so the community wasn't here for us."

Wade's daughter, Zaya, who turns 17 next week, came out as transgender in 2020 in the midst of anti-trans legislation in Florida and other states that prompted many trans adults to flee the state. The Wade family sold their Florida home last year and moved to California.

In accepting the award, Wade shared it with Zaya and credited her with inspiring the creation of Translatable, a new online community designed to support transgender children and their families.

"The question was presented to her as, 'If you have one thing that you want to see change in this community, what would it be?'" Wade recalled. "And, for her, it goes right to parents. It goes right to the adults. It goes right to us. It's not the kids. It's us. And so she wanted to create a space that felt safe for parents and their kids. That's what Translatable is, and it's her baby."
...
---

Why can't it just be someone goofy and lovable like Shaq?
Good story. I've never been able to hate on D-Wade, other than how he spells his name
 

Kliq

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In the stupid question category so dont kill me.

I have a question for the nba savants here. It *feels* like players are better, more accolades, accomplished earlier. Emphasis on feels. I feel like the top 15-20 in the prior generations took longer to develop/growing pain years. Luka, Ant, JT, etc were pretty quickly elite.

Do you think that'll translate to shorter lengths of greatness/eliteness/shorter primes? I dont follow soccer like i used to but there always felt like a slew of great young players and then by their mid to late 20s it would be time for the next crop.
I think this is an interesting question and I have some ideas.

The first thing that stands out to me is that I'd think that the ages 28-32 would be the most typical "primes" for NBA players. Yet when you look at the All-NBA team, only seven out of the 15 players (Giannis, Jokic, Davis, Kawhi, Sabonis, Brunson and Booker) would fall into that category, which seems odd. You've got a lot of players who are younger than that (SGA, Tatum, Edwards, Luka and Haliburton) who are younger than that range, in some cases by several years, plus Durant, Curry and LeBron as the old heads.

Do we have a lack of elite stars that are in their traditional "primes?" Does that make it easier for both younger players to reach elite status, and older players to maintain elite status for a longer period of time?

Take a look at those players who are in their prime years that made All-NBA again. Only Anthony Davis was a Top 10 pick. Jokic and Brunson were drafted in the second round. It seems like that era of drafts had a difficult time identifying who would be the best players in the NBA when they were in their prime. It's not necessarily that those drafts lacked talent, but it was difficult to identify that talent.

My theory is that the game changed a lot during the last ten years. It was more challenging for players who came into the league 8-10 years ago to adapt to the league as it was changing, getting focused more on three point shooting, being hunted more on defense, different counters to small-ball, etc., than it was for younger players, who were able to matriculate through the youth level with a better understanding of what the NBA would be like. You don't have players like Jahlil Okafor, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Nik Stauskas, etc. during into dinosaurs almost immediately as they hit the league.

The difference in big guys alone is really evident, just looking at the range of skills and abilities that players like Wemby and Chet have, compared to the standard top big guys that were drafted a decade ago.

There are also some injury issues--a player like Embiid is elite and in his prime, but injury prone and didn't qualify for All-NBA this year. Kawhi has obviously had his roller coaster of issues. Even a guy like Jabari Parker might have had All-NBA upside but was undone early due to injuries.
 

lars10

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Good story. I've never been able to hate on D-Wade, other than how he spells his name
My only quibble with him would be how he tried to hurt numerous players during his career and then tried to pretend he was the good guy… and there’s the allegations of domestic abuse.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I like JJ as a commentator, so this is a loss from that perspective.

I also think odds are he is less helpful to the Lakers than a more experienced coach, so that is a win! However it suggests Lebron is going back there, which is not at all surprising but still not as good as him leaving for elsewhere from a Celtics perspective.