2022 PGA Tour

jercra

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I think Mickelson makes some great points about how the PGA isn't doing the best thing to market the game and make it worthwhile for the players to engage with fans. It's also not clear what the fuck the PGA is doing with all this money they are amassing if it isn't going back into the Player's pockets somehow?

At the end of the day, the PGA is just another money machine... they need to compete with other leagues for professional talent. If there terms are not attractive then they need to fix that or get ready to get run off the tracks. Just because they have a great name and a lot of history does not make them immune to market forces.
I don't want to get too deep into it, but the PGA TOUR is not like other leagues. There's not a set of owners and a player's union that negotiates against the league. The league literally is the players. Phil doesn't have to convince the the TOUR to do anything. He is the TOUR. He has to convince the other players that his ideas are good and they will be adopted and implemented. Complaining about your boss when you are the boss is an odd stance.

Roughly 55% of the revenue goes to the players, another ~25% goes to charity ($200-300MM/yr). Another sizable chunk goes to operating expenses. There's not a lot left over. I'm not sure Phil really has the whole picture.
 

cshea

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More Saudi league chatter. Kramer Hickock said on a podcast that he's heard "a lot of big names" and that he knows of "17 guys who are going to make the jump." There aren't a ton of details available abnout the league but Hickock says it's 12-14 events, 10 in the US, huge purse, no cut, 40 players. Phil as one is pretty obvious at this point. There are a ton of rumors swiriling around Bryson, but nothing confirmed. Bryson has allegedly told other players that he's done on the PGA Tour, but publicly has said he plans on defending at Bay Hill in 2 weeks, health permitting. The only thing we really know is he was offered over $100 million to be the face of the new tour/league.

View: https://twitter.com/KylePorterCBS/status/1493648661296910338?s=20&t=cTDP2vW4DZTnGYlViFDu0w


Morikawa committed to the PGA Tour, joining Tiger, Rory, JT, Brooks as other big names who have publicly stated they're staying.

View: https://twitter.com/Daniel_Rapaport/status/1493649848188354563?s=20&t=cTDP2vW4DZTnGYlViFDu0w


We'll see what happens. Until players go public, there's going to be a ton of rumors. In the meantime, we're going to keep getting dustups like the Charley Hoffman fiasco last weekend with finger pointing and threats.
 

voidfunkt

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It will be interesting who the 17 are I guess... can't wait to find out its a bunch of guys nobody really actually cares about.
 

cshea

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Bryson would be a pretty big one.

Not sure about the rest, but I'm sure a large portion will be "names" but ultimately guys we don't care about. People care about Phil, but he makes sense. 2021 PGA Championship not withstanding, he's probably done as a competitor on the PGA Tour and this is far more lucrative than the Champions Tour. Some of the other names floated around during all this are similar to Phil. Aging, former stars. Lee Westwod has publicly said he'd be dumb not to consider their offer given where he is in his career. I haven't heard anything specificly connecting him to the new league, but Henrik Stenson is at a similar place in his career as Westwood and Mickelson.

I'm not sure what they have for other "stars." You could probably take a look at the field for the Saudi International two weeks ago and get a sense of some of the players that may jump. It doesn't mean all the players that went over are a lock to jump, but maybe more inclined to consider it.
 

Eagle3

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I've noticed several of the payouts have gone up quite a bit this year at PGA events. Some examples: Genesis Tourney this week is 2.16 mil for the winner. Last year it was 1.67. Players went from 2.7 to 3.6. Fed Ex playoff tourneys went from 1.7 to 2.7.
Was that planned all along, or a response to the threat of losing guys to this other league?
 

TFP

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Yeah DJ, Bryson, and a lot of guys past their prime like Poulter, Rose, Stenson, Westy. Maybe they get someone like Abe Ancer, but I don't know. The real penalty will be if this gets people removed from Ryder Cup participation/captaincy (especially for the Euros) but maybe they're willing to sell out for that.

The way this is trending, it's going to improve my PGA Tour watching experience, I won't miss any of those guys except DJ maybe. It also came into stark contrast these past couple weeks seeing the soulless Saudi event with no one in attendance juxtaposed with the WM Open this past weekend and Riv this weekend and the backlash Charley Hoffman took for his post. I don't think it will amount to much more than a "washed up WGC series" in the long run.

I've noticed several of the payouts have gone up quite a bit this year at PGA events. Some examples: Genesis Tourney this week is 2.16 mil for the winner. Last year it was 1.67. Players went from 2.7 to 3.6. Fed Ex playoff tourneys went from 1.7 to 2.7.
Was that planned all along, or a response to the threat of losing guys to this other league?
Little of both, I think. It was planned all along due to the new TV deal starting this year bringing a large influx of cash, but maybe accelerated some and promoted/communicated more heavily due to the threats.
 

cshea

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I think the PIP program and FedEx bonus' are more cloesly related to the break out league threats than the increase in purse sizes.
 

Deathofthebambino

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"Golfers" is doing a lot off work in that statement from Hickock. For all we know, it could be 5-10 guys from the Champions Tour (or guys that should probably be on or heading to it soon). For those guys, this makes sense if the purses are that massive.

But if these "stars" of the actual PGA Tour think they can make more money over there, so be it. I won't be watching them in the middle of the night, or whenever they are playing, I won't give two shits about them once they are out of mind. There are enough great young golfers showing up on the Tour every year that these guys will be replaced in short order. I hate Bryson, so I'll be just fine if he dies of dehydration in the Saudi desert.
 

cshea

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I don't disagree, but FWIW, they aren't actually playing in Saudi. The bulk will be in the US, if it gets off the ground.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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But if these "stars" of the actual PGA Tour think they can make more money over there, so be it. I won't be watching them in the middle of the night, or whenever they are playing, I won't give two shits about them once they are out of mind. There are enough great young golfers showing up on the Tour every year that these guys will be replaced in short order. I hate Bryson, so I'll be just fine if he dies of dehydration in the Saudi desert.
Big whatever on my side as well. I watch some PGA Tour Sundays but mostly don't care who is in the field. I've found the Korn Ferry and LPGA really watchable lately as well.

It's only the majors that matter anyway.
 

JOBU

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I’m finding all this fascinating. I casually follow golf outside the the major tourneys, but I gotta think this is kind of a no turning back for the guys that take the Saudi money no? Would the tour take them back? The tour needs to set ground rules here for those that leave perhaps take a hard stance ie permanent ban… would they do that? Probably not. If the Saudi league fails would the guys that left come back? Would the players accept them? Would the fans? What about sponsors? Would it cheapen winning something like the masters or us open in what might be considered a “weak” field? Almost feels like crossing a picket line in a strike to me. Players and fans may blacklist those that jumped. Just my 2 cents but the dynamics are intriguing. I do get the urge to jump ship… but still. Seems like an awfully big gamble for guys that already make a ton of money.
 

The Napkin

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That'd be a fun little thing for them to do. Sign 39 guys and every week have a lottery local randoms can enter and have the winner be #40 each week.
 

cshea

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I’m finding all this fascinating. I casually follow golf outside the the major tourneys, but I gotta think this is kind of a no turning back for the guys that take the Saudi money no? Would the tour take them back? The tour needs to set ground rules here for those that leave perhaps take a hard stance ie permanent ban… would they do that? Probably not. If the Saudi league fails would the guys that left come back? Would the players accept them? Would the fans? What about sponsors? Would it cheapen winning something like the masters or us open in what might be considered a “weak” field? Almost feels like crossing a picket line in a strike to me. Players and fans may blacklist those that jumped. Just my 2 cents but the dynamics are intriguing. I do get the urge to jump ship… but still. Seems like an awfully big gamble for guys that already make a ton of money.
The Tour has said they will ban players who leave.

The majors are another story and a bit more complicated. The Tour doesn’t run the majors. Non-PGA Tour players can get into majors via the Official World Golf Rankings. And other qualifying criteria. If OWGR points are awarded on this new tour, and I assume they are, then the players would still get in to the majors. It’s up to the governing body of each major (ANGC, USGA, R&A, PGA of America) to decide what to do. I don’t think they’d ban the players.
 

cshea

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At any rate one thing the break out leagues are doing is getting the Tour to come up with new, fresh ideas. They’ve apparently proposed a 3 event tournament series in the fall. It would be the top 50 in the previous years FedEx Cup broken up into 10 teams of 5. Events would be played

The existing fall series events would stay on the calendar as events for the players 51-125 + the KFT graduates to compete for priority.

This idea seems like more of a response to the PGL than the Saudi’s (LIV Golf)

View: https://twitter.com/rexhoggardgc/status/1494081575943823362?s=21
 

jercra

No longer respects DeChambeau
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Some of the players need better advisors. From that Hickok article:
I don't know if I'm allowed to say these numbers, but we're getting a tiny, tiny percentage of what the PGA Tour is getting of what the total revenue is for all four majors.
The PGA Tour does not get revenue from the majors. There are certainly valid complaints about the TOUR, but that isn't one of them.
 

TFP

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Some of the players need better advisors. From that Hickok article:

The PGA Tour does not get revenue from the majors. There are certainly valid complaints about the TOUR, but that isn't one of them.
You mean to tell me Phil’s media rights aren’t worth $20 billion?!
 

cshea

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Anyway, we're on to Riviera. Great two week stretch here on the heels of the WM.

Tiger is there as the tournament host. Says he's not close to a return but progressing. He'll never commit to anything this far out, but seems like St. Andrew's is a legitimate target to play. He says he's still builing up the strength to walk 72+ holes on a tournament week.
 

E5 Yaz

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It will be interesting who the 17 are I guess... can't wait to find out its a bunch of guys nobody really actually cares about.
From the Golf Digest FAQ about the topic

Mickelson and Bryson DeChambeau have been the two most prominent and closely associated names to the breakaway league. Mickelson has been adversarial toward the PGA Tour, claiming to Golf Digest the tour’s “obnoxious greed” has opened the possibility of playing elsewhere. DeChambeau, like Mickelson, has played in the Saudi International multiple times, and at last year's PGA Championship said he had "people in the background" focusing on the SGL matter.

Lee Westwood has come as close as any player to publicly acknowledging his involvement. Though he hasn't officially said he's with the Saudi league, he did state he had signed an NDAduring the Saudi International (Westwood also acknowledged at the 2021 PGA that a big offer would be tough to turn down at his age). Dustin Johnson echoed Westwood’s response when asked about receiving an offer at the Saudi International, while Adam Scott said at the 2022 Genesis he's in talks with the Saudi league.

Jason Kokrak is a Saudi Golf ambassador and recently told the Five Clubs podcast, “I'm going to try make as much money as I can in as little amount of time, so if the money's right I would love to go play that tour and play against some of the guys that are going to go out over there." A number of European Ryder Cuppers such as Tyrrell Hatton, Tommy Fleetwood, Henrik Stenson and Ian Poulter are reportedly weighing offers, while Patrick Reed—a frequent competitor in the Saudi International—has also been in the mix.

Speaking of ... by proxy, those who competed at this year’s Saudi International have seen their names linked to the SGL. This group includes Xander Schauffele, Tony Finau, Matthew Wolff, Bubba Watson, Cam Smith, Joaquin Niemann, Sergio Garcia, Shane Lowry, Paul Casey and Marc Leishman.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/saudi-golf-league-2022-primer
 

voidfunkt

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Mickelson and Dechambeau are the obvious ones. Looking at the other names... I gotta be honest, I really don't care if I never see any of them again in PGA events.

They'll still be in the majors since those aren't run by the PGA Tour.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
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Omg, please let Bubba be one of the guys who disappears. Take Kuchar too. It's a decent list of declining big names though. There's maybe sort of a market for fading stars who can't hang with the young guys like they used to given how the peak playing age has shifted younger? Other than Tiger I'm not sure I can about seeing anyone who used to be elite but I guess others feel differently (it's kind of the model for the seniors after all).

Mickelson's greed comment is a bit weird. I suspect what he really thinks is his cut of the pie isn't big enough. You know, because he's great, just ask him.
 

voidfunkt

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Competition is good, let's see how it unfolds. It could be the XFL or it could push real change.

I wish there was a competitive league for the NHL and NFL.
Yea I agree with this mostly. If the format works and forces the PGA to improve something tangible for viewers while improving the players situation as well that is a win.

Competition here is good.
 

Average Reds

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From the Golf Digest FAQ about the topic

Mickelson and Bryson DeChambeau have been the two most prominent and closely associated names to the breakaway league. Mickelson has been adversarial toward the PGA Tour, claiming to Golf Digest the tour’s “obnoxious greed” has opened the possibility of playing elsewhere. DeChambeau, like Mickelson, has played in the Saudi International multiple times, and at last year's PGA Championship said he had "people in the background" focusing on the SGL matter.

Lee Westwood has come as close as any player to publicly acknowledging his involvement. Though he hasn't officially said he's with the Saudi league, he did state he had signed an NDAduring the Saudi International (Westwood also acknowledged at the 2021 PGA that a big offer would be tough to turn down at his age). Dustin Johnson echoed Westwood’s response when asked about receiving an offer at the Saudi International, while Adam Scott said at the 2022 Genesis he's in talks with the Saudi league.

Jason Kokrak is a Saudi Golf ambassador and recently told the Five Clubs podcast, “I'm going to try make as much money as I can in as little amount of time, so if the money's right I would love to go play that tour and play against some of the guys that are going to go out over there." A number of European Ryder Cuppers such as Tyrrell Hatton, Tommy Fleetwood, Henrik Stenson and Ian Poulter are reportedly weighing offers, while Patrick Reed—a frequent competitor in the Saudi International—has also been in the mix.

Speaking of ... by proxy, those who competed at this year’s Saudi International have seen their names linked to the SGL. This group includes Xander Schauffele, Tony Finau, Matthew Wolff, Bubba Watson, Cam Smith, Joaquin Niemann, Sergio Garcia, Shane Lowry, Paul Casey and Marc Leishman.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/saudi-golf-league-2022-primer
Adam Scott did more than acknowledge that he’s been talking with the new league - he said point blank that he has signed an NDA and used that to foreclose further discussion.


Mickelson's greed comment is a bit weird. I suspect what he really thinks is his cut of the pie isn't big enough. You know, because he's great, just ask him.
Most have ignored it in deference to Phil’s “aw shucks” regular guy persona, but he’s always been a greedy asshole.

To be specific, he had a tantrum back in 2013 after California raised taxes on high earners and vowed to make “drastic changes” (retiring and/or moving to a low tax area where two of those) because it was so unfair for him not to be able to direct more of his earnings to his favorite hobbies of gambling and insider trading*.

*He didn’t say that last part. However, he did engage in insider trading as a way to pay off gambling losses. Basically, Phil is a greedy asshole.
 

cshea

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Shipnuck is writing an unauthorized biography of Phil and wrote an article with some excerpts/information from the book regarding Phil's involvment in the Saudi league.

https://firepitcollective.com/the-truth-about-phil-and-saudi-arabia/

Mickelson told me he had enlisted three other “top players” he declined to name and that they paid for attorneys to write the SGL’s operating agreement, codifying that the players would have control of all the details. He didn’t pretend to be excited about hitching his fortunes to Saudi Arabia, admitting the SGL was nothing more than what he called “sportswashing” by a brutally repressive regime. “They’re scary motherfuckers to get involved with,” he said. “We know they killed [Washington Post reporter and U.S. resident Jamal] Khashoggi and have a horrible record on human rights. They execute people over there for being gay. Knowing all of this, why would I even consider it? Because this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reshape how the PGA Tour operates. They’ve been able to get by with manipulative, coercive, strong-arm tactics because we, the players, had no recourse. As nice a guy as [PGA Tour commissioner Jay Monahan] comes across as, unless you have leverage, he won’t do what’s right. And the Saudi money has finally given us that leverage. I’m not sure I even want [the SGL] to succeed, but just the idea of it is allowing us to get things done with the [PGA] Tour.”
 
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joe dokes

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Shipnuck is writing an unauthorized autobiography of Phil and wrote an article with some excerpts/information from the book regarding Phil's involvment in the Saudi league.

https://firepitcollective.com/the-truth-about-phil-and-saudi-arabia/
Phil is a moron if he thinks that fans and (especially) sponsors are going to line up behind a Saudi enterprise like this. He'll get a bunch of "names," and they can hang out in their own little circle jerk saying bad things about the PGA while pocketing unfathomable amounts of cash while the PGA Tour rolls along without them.
 

ColdSoxPack

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Remember the line in Wall Street where Charlie Sheen asks Gordon Gekko "How many yachts can you water ski behind"? This is an epically bad look by these guys willing to get into business with Saudi Arabia.
 

Average Reds

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I think we’ve all known that Phil is not the kind of guy who attends Mensa meetings. But, after re-reading the Shipnuck piece, I can’t help but wonder if Phil hasn’t caused some serious damage to his plans.

Calling your financiers “scary motherfuckers” while simultaneously admitting that they execute people who embarrass them on the international stage and then going on to say that you don’t care about the success of the venture and are just using them and their money to gain leverage over the PGA Tour? Toss in the fact that he said this while he was prohibited from commenting because he signed an NDA and that’s the kind of fuck-up that gets you banned from both leagues.

It probably won’t happen, but a man can dream.
 

LogansDad

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Holy shit, I just scanned the Shipnuck article. Fuck Phil Mickelson. I regret that I ever rooted for him in anything. I have zero interest in anything that is financed/marketed/branded/whatever by the Saudis. They are the some of the worst people on the planet, so I'm glad that it appears that only players I don't like or barely care about anymore are jumping ship over to there. I have no love for the PGA Tour, but I hope every one of these guys crashes and burns.
 

radsoxfan

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My favorite tourney of the year to watch, but I will never understand Riv’s (or the PGAs?) obsession with wide fairways and no rough for the non-majors.

This could easily be a US open course yet they insist on making it as easy as possible for the regular tour event.

Maybe the pin placements over the weekend will be a bit tougher at least. Weather will still likely be pristine.
 

cshea

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Riv is among the tougher courses on Tour. The fairways are narrow. It’ll continue getting firm and fast through the weekend. The rough isn’t particularly deep but it is very difficult to get the ball near the hole if you are coming out of it. If you miss a green in the wrong spot it’s a tough up and down.

Just because two guys played lights out doesn’t mean it’s easy. It wouldn’t surprise me if the winning score on Sunday ends up around the current -16.