2022 Dolphins: Our coach is cooler than yours

EvilEmpire

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The only way this isn’t obvious is if someone has Harry Hooper on ignore
Yeah. Absolutely. I'm a little surprised that sodenj5 gets called out again instead of that post from HH rationalizing the Edelman hit.

The "not my guys" stuff seems to miss the message about how pernicious this problem is.
 

Marciano490

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That’s my bad. Just figured the HH post was too absurd to even address, but sodenj does deserve a little sarcastic reply to that and I shouldn’t have knocked him for underplaying the initial Tua injury in service of a legit and well executed counter.
 

sodenj5

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The NFLPA’s report is out. They essentially found that Miami followed the protocol in place.

Under the previous rules, once Tua reported a back injury and said that his back cause him to stumble, they didn’t have a lot of recourse once he passed the other portions of the protocol.

This will no longer be the case moving forward, as any stumble like we saw from Tua will lead to an automatic removal from the game.
 

radsoxfan

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The NFLPA’s report is out. They essentially found that Miami followed the protocol in place.

Under the previous rules, once Tua reported a back injury and said that his back cause him to stumble, they didn’t have a lot of recourse once he passed the other portions of the protocol.

This will no longer be the case moving forward, as any stumble like we saw from Tua will lead to an automatic removal from the game.
They followed the protocol in place…. Yet the doc got fired by the NFLPA.

Not surprised at all they fired the doc, or by the “protocols were followed” result.

But it does end up sounding kind of silly.
 

sodenj5

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They followed the protocol in place…. Yet the doc got fired by the NFLPA.

Not surprised at all they fired the doc, or by the “protocols were followed” result.

But it does end up sounding kind of silly.
It sounded like their reasoning was he made “several mistakes” despite following the protocol, and wasn’t willing to step outside the bounds of the protocol and remove Tua from the game.

View: https://twitter.com/danieloyefusi/status/1578861498264584192?s=46&t=TZ7nyPUFndTEmZAL9_Q0Cg
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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sodenj5

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Why would he step outside the bounds of the protocol? That's, like, what it's in place for.
Exactly. Why would they fire him for following the protocol? Both the NFL and the NFLPA found that he and Miami followed the protocol, yet he lost his job.
 

sodenj5

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Xavien Howard inactive today with the groin injury.

I suppose I would prefer them being cautious with Howard this week with the Vikings on the slate next week. Another big week for Needham, Kohou, and Crossing. Might even be an Igbinoghene sighting.
 

sodenj5

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Well, Teddy out on the first play after an extremely generous interpretation of the intentional grounding rule.

Skylar Thompson coming in.
 

sodenj5

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Teddy in the concussion protocol. Miami only willing to break the rules for Tua.
 

Van Everyman

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Exactly. Why would they fire him for following the protocol? Both the NFL and the NFLPA found that he and Miami followed the protocol, yet he lost his job.
Again, just because a player passes the tests required by the protocol and insists it was some back injury doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a concussion. If I know that, so do doctors and coaches.

As I said before the failure here was that nobody—the doctors or McDaniel—played it safe here based on what happened in the Bills game. The doctors are clearly just following the rules and seems culturally predisposed to keep guys on the field, all other things being equal. McDaniel could have overruled them but didn’t. Who knows why.

At any rate, it sucks that it had to play out this way but I hope this leads to more coaches being more conservative when it comes to head injuries.
 

sodenj5

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Tough loss. Miami clearly playing with a hand tied behind their back with the injuries.

The defense continues to hemorrhage yards.

I suppose we should actually feel better about Tua’s performance earlier this year. McDaniel’s system is pretty good, but Tua clearly operates this offense at a level far higher than either Teddy or Skylar.

I would also like to see a clip, any clip, of Teddy stumbling or showing any type of instability.
 

cornwalls@6

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Just as an update, no one has been able to find any type of footage of Teddy stumbling or showing signs of gross motor instability. The spotter is not required to provide footage or evidence of spotting said stumble.

View: https://twitter.com/flasportsbuzz/status/1579562746307231744?s=46&t=UldbGPqRT6Qt3ALYycXaYQ
The league going all in on performative over reaction yesterday was as predictable as the sunrise, including the laughable roughing the passer on Brady yesterday. I predict we’ll see a few weeks of this mid season, then when December and the playoffs roll around, the spotters will suddenly swallow the binoculars.
 

Zedia

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He kinda looks like he's in the fencer's pose for a second before he gets up (I think that's just a coincidence; I don't have an opinion either way).
 

cornwalls@6

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‘Performative overreaction’ is a pretty glib way to talk about measures designed to identify potential concussions.
Have they earned any benefit of the doubt? And did you
see the two ridiculous instances of it yesterday? I’m not glib about concussions. I’m utterly cynical about their competence and commitment to a genuine, serious effort to mitigate them, within the context of a sport that features blocking and tackling. Yet another re-write of league rules/protocols does nothing for me. Try a sensible enforcement of what was already in place.
 

Shelterdog

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Just making sure I’m following here. Dolphins fans are arguing that the league is now being too stringent about removing players from games with possible concussions?

You guys all spend too much time in the sun.
 

sodenj5

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I mean, that hit on Bridgewater doesn’t look appreciably worse than what Gary did to Hoyer last week. Hoyer is helped up but doesn’t stumble or anything and walks off the field … with a concussion.

View: https://twitter.com/ftbeard7/status/1576675282244624384?s=46&t=_VMlS6wGmPEyXpE39Yixbg
The difference being Hoyer was diagnosed with a concussion and Teddy was not. He was pulled from the game because the spotter said he saw a stumble or instability, which as of Sunday, is an immediate exit and no reentry to the game.
 

Gash Prex

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I’m confused, are dolphins fan suggesting the NFL protocol was intentionally misused against them, causing them to lose the game? Because that seems to be the implication

also you gave up 40 points to the Jets
 

Trlicek's Whip

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Stumblegate or no, the Fins were near the bottom in DVOA in defense and special teams before the Jets hung their 40 on them. It's way early, even if there's optimism that McDaniel is finally The Guy. And one would hope The Guy starts coaching up the 2/3 phases of the game that Miami is awful at.
 

snowmanny

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Well, his head whiplashes towards the turf. Can’t tell if it hits the turf. He rolls over slowly with his head down and gets up slowly. At that moment if you told me he was concussed I wouldn’t be shocked. He looks a little off his first couple steps - sways a little, seems to be shaking off something in his right hand. Then looks fine after that.

I have no idea what their protocol is now. Pulling him for an evaluation I could see. Pulling him for the game I don’t quite get because you can have the wind knocked out of you, or a shoulder injury or, yes, a back injury or fifty other things and look out of sorts for ten seconds. Doesn’t mean concussed.
 

sodenj5

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Well, his head whiplashes towards the turf. Can’t tell if it hits the turf. He rolls over slowly with his head down and gets up slowly. At that moment if you told me he was concussed I wouldn’t be shocked. He looks a little off his first couple steps - sways a little, seems to be shaking off something in his right hand. Then looks fine after that.

I have no idea what their protocol is now. Pulling him for an evaluation I could see. Pulling him for the game I don’t quite get because you can have the wind knocked out of you, or a shoulder injury or, yes, a back injury or fifty things and look out of sorts for ten seconds.
Contrast that hit with the one that Braxton Berrios took in the same game.

View: https://twitter.com/chrisnowinski1/status/1579201243024457729?s=46&t=uLXT5wnw7QMaH9vF6I6MyA


So does the new protocol only apply to quarterbacks? Does it only apply to anyone that tries to get up immediately after a big hit? Teddy missed an entire game, Berrios didn’t even go into the blue tent.
 

dirtynine

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The reason none of this can ever be logical is because every player seeing action is taking some level of cranial damage in every game, because football as designed cannot be played without physical impact and the head is usually in the middle of it. At some level we have to accept that the nature of the sport itself is the problem, and trying add safety protocol around it can’t ever really work to the level that many want it to. When people were dying playing football a hundred years ago, the government forced rule changes that… ultimately spread the dying out over a longer time frame, so at least it didn’t happen on the field, but 15-20 years later (not that they knew any better then). More seismic rule changes will be needed if we expect players - especially QBs - to have full multi-year careers without CTE or concussions. Or we can accept that it’s inherently violent (like we do with boxing) and go on adding protocol at the margins that help a bit with safety and a bit with PR. I’d rather the former over the latter. The NFL is doing the latter, and I don’t see that changing. Flag football ain’t walking through that door.

In our current reality, then, when it comes to mitigating damage and preventing the worst of it without making fundamental rule changes, why isn’t there more urgency to find better solutions? Why are we interpreting from afar with spotters and treating different positions differently? An empirical, data-driven system would be an improvement. How about sensors in every player’s helmet that register impact in numbers that can be evaluated? And maybe other neurological / circulatory sensors too? How about three independent spotters, and if any two flag a play, it’s evaluated? How about no more games on 3 days rest for anybody?

I get that this is still a league that brings physical chains out to measure a manually spotted ball down to a fraction of an inch, but come on.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Look, you can't have it both ways. "Trust the doctors" when they let Tua back into treatment after a concussion, but "don't trust the doctors" when they keep Teddy out.

Pick a narrative and stick to it.
 

sodenj5

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Look, you can't have it both ways. "Trust the doctors" when they let Tua back into treatment after a concussion, but "don't trust the doctors" when they keep Teddy out.

Pick a narrative and stick to it.
I am. The doctors didn’t remove Teddy. He passed the concussion protocol.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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Those don't mention where they saw the stumble. Tua "passed" the protocol, too.

Edit- oh, I see what you are saying. Going on "passed the test" .... which doesn't account for fine/gross motor. I was including the ataxia as part of the eval.
 

BigJimEd

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I don't see the inconsistency here. There's a difference in a guy getting cleared after exam and a guy in booth ruling someone out from afar without an examination. But I'm also ok with it even if it is an "overreaction" and certainly don't believe the league is out to get the Dolphins. Although I'm not sure anyone actually said that.

Yes, some guys will be ruled out who might not have a concussion. That's much better than the alternative where the default was to throw the player back out there unless it was completely obvious they couldn't go.
 

sodenj5

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I don't see the inconsistency here. There's a difference in a guy getting cleared after exam and a guy in booth ruling someone out from afar without an examination. But I'm also ok with it even if it is an "overreaction" and certainly don't believe the league is out to get the Dolphins. Although I'm not sure anyone actually said that.

Yes, some guys will be ruled out who might not have a concussion. That's much better than the alternative where the default was to throw the player back out there unless it was completely obvious they couldn't go.
The difference is there isn’t a team of professionals evaluating or making a determination. There’s a person watching for signs of a concussion that unilaterally gets to make a determination to remove a player from the game.

That same person who decided that Teddy Bridgewater needed to leave the game for safety reasons also thought that Braxton Berrios was totally fine.
 

Shelterdog

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I don't see the inconsistency here. There's a difference in a guy getting cleared after exam and a guy in booth ruling someone out from afar without an examination. But I'm also ok with it even if it is an "overreaction" and certainly don't believe the league is out to get the Dolphins. Although I'm not sure anyone actually said that.

Yes, some guys will be ruled out who might not have a concussion. That's much better than the alternative where the default was to throw the player back out there unless it was completely obvious they couldn't go.
And where the consequences of the old default could be a starting quarterback suffering a massive concussion on national TV in a game where every observer except apparently the crack Dolphins medical staff and independent neurologist thought "hey that guy was stumbling like a drunk after hitting his head four days ago, maybe don't play him?"

It also looks like the NFL and NFLPA know the Dolphins medical staff and independent neurologist done screwed up, saying that "the outcome in this case was not what was intended when the Protocol was drafted" Perhaps most significantly they attributed the stumbling to his back but did not examine his back. Which you would think would be helpful in figuring out if the stumbling was caused by a back injury.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34755142/following-review-handling-tua-tagovailoa-injury-nfl-nflpa-agree-outcome-case-not-was-intended

[To answer some other questions raised in this thread , the team doctor and neurologist did see the video of Tua stumbling and cleared him anyway/ https://www.khon2.com/local-news/tua-tagovailoa-injury-investigation-almost-criminal/ ]

And yes, it looks like Berrios should have been kept out of the game. That of course is totally irrelevant to any of this.
 

BigJimEd

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The difference is there isn’t a team of professionals evaluating or making a determination. There’s a person watching for signs of a concussion that unilaterally gets to make a determination to remove a player from the game.

That same person who decided that Teddy Bridgewater needed to leave the game for safety reasons also thought that Braxton Berrios was totally fine.
I understand. It's not perfect but better than what they were doing. As for Berrios, there is head contact so he should have gone to the tent. Virtually everyone that comes up with an injury should go to the tent. But we know the NFL obsesses over the QB. That's where the vast majority of media attention is as well so yes they are treated differently. This is not new.
 

DJnVa

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The difference is there isn’t a team of professionals evaluating or making a determination. There’s a person watching for signs of a concussion that unilaterally gets to make a determination to remove a player from the game.

That same person who decided that Teddy Bridgewater needed to leave the game for safety reasons also thought that Braxton Berrios was totally fine.
You are looking for certainty where it does not exist and will never exist. And coming a week after what happened to Tua with the same team?
 

BigJimEd

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[To answer some other questions raised in this thread , the team doctor and neurologist did see the video of Tua stumbling and cleared him anyway/ https://www.khon2.com/local-news/tua-tagovailoa-injury-investigation-almost-criminal/ ]
Which was the biggest issue with the way the protocol was working. They basically took the player's word for it except in extreme cases. Unfortunately, in the vast majority of cases, the player is trying to get back on the field and not thinking about their health. Concussions diagnosis aren't always straightforward especially with an uncooperative patient. Symptoms can be delayed or the patient can be lying about symptoms.

It wasn't difficult to pass the protocol if they just based it on the checklist which seems to be how they usually approached and acknowledged what happened in Tua's case.

@sodenj5 What is your overall point? Is your point that they should go back to the old concussion protocol? I would strongly disagree there.
If your point is that Bridgewater should have been allowed to return? Yeah, maybe. Not going to totally disagree there but what is the alternative? There are going to be players held out that likely could have gone back in. That's not necessarily a bad thing. That's much better than sending guys back in with a concussion.
If your point is the NFL treats QBs differently? Well, yes obviously. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.