2021 BBHoF Ballot

Danny_Darwin

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Jul 19, 2005
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First-timers:
Mark Buehrle
AJ Burnett
Michael Cuddyer
Dan Haren
LaTroy Hawkins
Tim Hudson
Torii Hunter
Aramis Ramirez
Nick Swisher
Shane Victorino
Barry Zito

Returners (Ballot#):
Bobby Abreu (2nd)
Barry Bonds (9th)
Roger Clemens (9th)
Andruw Jones (4th)
Todd Helton (3rd)
Jeff Kent (8th)
Andy Pettitte (3rd)
Manny Ramirez (5th)
Curt Schilling (9th)
Scott Rolen (4th)
Gary Sheffield (7th)
Sammy Sosa (9th)
Billy Wagner (6th)
Omar Vizquel (4th)
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Oct 23, 2001
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Yeah, if Bonds/Clemens/Ramirez/Sheffield don't make it this year, they never will.

Might Schilling or Vizquel (shudder) make it over the top in such a weak year?
 

luckiestman

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1. Bonds and Clemens not in is still a joke

2. No one from first timers is really that close in my opinion.
 

mwonow

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The first-time list is so bad that it has me rethinking my previous distaste for the 'roiders. Agreed that none of the first-timers should enter the Hall without buying a ticket.
 

luckiestman

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I had not realized Sheffield was accused of steroid use (forgive me, I have lived in Japan since even before his peak) but I would say Tori Hunter, he and Vizquel are the only near HOF, if you don't think the evidence on Sheffield is adequate.
Sheffield was on the clear, Victor Conte guy iirc.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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Sheffield was on the clear, Victor Conte guy iirc.
I didn't recall the voracity of allegations against Sheffield but my bleacher buddies and I still laugh about one drunk guy chanting "STEEEER-OOOIIIIDS" to Sheffield in right field during a Sunday night game in 2004 or '05. We have recycled this chant on many occasions to refer to other Yankees in future games, such as Jason Giambi, ARod, Clemens, Pettitte, etc.
 

BaseballJones

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Ale Xander

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Buehrle is the only one on the first timers list I would pay for a ticket to watch (unless 1st row bleacher-T Hunter), for time management and game flow reasons.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
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Jul 15, 2005
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Buehrle is the only one on the first timers list I would pay for a ticket to watch (unless 1st row bleacher-T Hunter), for time management and game flow reasons.
I remember when he went against Clemens one time the late 90s and SportsCenter or Baseball Tonight labeled it Hurler Buerhle vs Burley Hurler. Always got a kick out of that.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Buehrle is the only one on the first timers list I would pay for a ticket to watch (unless 1st row bleacher-T Hunter), for time management and game flow reasons.
I remember seeing some stat that Buehrle was a part of the last 3 games that were under 2 hours (in the last 15 years or so) or something. Sign me up!
 

luckiestman

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Buehrle is the only one on the first timers list I would pay for a ticket to watch (unless 1st row bleacher-T Hunter), for time management and game flow reasons.
I actually like the peak of a lot of those guys, but they ain’t HOF. I loved watching Zito when he looked coked up and had the curve ball going.

Swisher was also great with fan interaction and I like his game.
 

Danny_Darwin

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I agree that neither is a HoFer, but yeah, Buehrle and Hudson were both really excellent for a lot of years and had careers to be proud of. You'd have been happy to have either on the team you rooted for. Buehrle, at least, was a "guy I hope the Red Sox trade for" all-star for most of his career for me.
 

Seels

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Jul 20, 2005
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First-timers:
Mark Buehrle
AJ Burnett
Michael Cuddyer
Dan Haren
LaTroy Hawkins
Tim Hudson
Torii Hunter
Aramis Ramirez
Nick Swisher
Shane Victorino
Barry Zito

Returners (Ballot#):
Bobby Abreu (2nd)
Barry Bonds (9th)
Roger Clemens (9th)
Andruw Jones (4th)
Todd Helton (3rd)
Jeff Kent (8th)
Andy Pettitte (3rd)
Manny Ramirez (5th)
Curt Schilling (9th)
Scott Rolen (4th)
Gary Sheffield (7th)
Sammy Sosa (9th)
Billy Wagner (6th)
Omar Vizquel (4th)
Honestly wouldn't vote for any of them. Maybe Rolen.

None of the first timers are really all that close to deserving. Hudson is the closest but I don't see him making it.
I can be convinced that Wagner should be in, but I don't think he will be in.

There are people on corners of the internet who argue up and down Vizquel should be in. Whatever. Baines being inducted really made it so that I no longer care who makes it, just put in everyone who was an all star at any point. But if we're going with the same standards of most of all history, Vizquel shouldn't even be an argument. Guy was slightly better than average for a long time. Hard pass.
 

scottyno

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Dec 7, 2008
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Schilling is easily the best non steroid guy on the list and it's not even close. He should be a lock, especially since multiple pitchers with worse resumes have got in recently, but I have a feeling he might have to wait for the veteran's committee.
 

Jim Ed Rice in HOF

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Jul 21, 2005
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Schilling is easily the best non steroid guy on the list and it's not even close. He should be a lock, especially since multiple pitchers with worse resumes have got in recently, but I have a feeling he might have to wait for the veteran's committee.
He was at 70% last year, he’s gone up roughly 10% per year the last few years. I think he gets in this year with a pretty weak candidate list.
 

j-man

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Dec 19, 2012
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i think shill is getting in bonds and clemens will be in mid-60's hunter a arkansas plnle bluff guy hall of fame person but sadly not good enough on offense will get high 30's low 40's hudson mid 40's vizquel a ozzie smith defense wizard and just as good as oz should get in but will not
 

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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i think shill is getting in bonds and clemens will be in mid-60's hunter a arkansas plnle bluff guy hall of fame person but sadly not good enough on offense will get high 30's low 40's hudson mid 40's vizquel a ozzie smith defense wizard and just as good as oz should get in but will not
Objection, your honor. Facts not in evidence.

 

E5 Yaz

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scottyno

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Massive recency bias in Ortiz being the best Red Sox player over Clemens, though Schilling being 3rd on the Sox list seems even worse since he only played 4 seasons with them.
 
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Philip Jeff Frye

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Oct 23, 2001
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Kind of silly that they include players who are not yet eligible like Ortiz, Arod and Beltre. You might as well say that Trout is the best Angel not in the Hall of Fame.
 

Danny_Darwin

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Jul 19, 2005
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Man, we are going to see some takes next year when A-Rod and David Ortiz are on the ballot. And then in 2022, it's Carlos Beltran, but at least that controversy won't be PED-related.
 

DJnVa

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Dec 16, 2010
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Which of the new guys gets the most votes?

Gotta be Hudson and his 222 wins no? Hunter will get some because he seemed like a nice dude that had a good career.

Zito's numbers are fun to look at---barely over .500 for his career at 165-143, and below .500 after turning 25 (118-146).
 

amRadio

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Feb 7, 2019
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Buehrle and Hudson are the best of the new additions but I agree with the people saying none of fresh blood this year will ever get in. Buehrle and Hudson had really great careers, if my team drafted a Buehrle or Hudson type this year, the next 10 years would be looking way up. All time greats? No.

This year does look like the best chance for Bonds and Clemens. If it doesn't happen this year for them, I think it probably never happens. I'm not sure where I come down on those two players; I feel like players who dragged the game through the mud publicly shouldn't get rewarded with induction. I have a hard time not acknowledging Bonds and Clemens as all-time greats, though.

If I had to guess I think it's Schilling and Rolen getting in this year with Vizquel and Wagner trending way up.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Jun 26, 2006
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Is Manny really just never going to get in? It breaks my heart.

I know it didn't end well, but there's no one I loved to watch hit more than him. Would love to know the real story of what went on with him and when he started roiding up. It never made sense to me.
 

JimRiceHOFer

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Jul 6, 2007
707
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It's not just this year that looks mediocre. Over the next 5 years there's going to be a lot of time to debate the players that may, or may not have, used performance enhancing drugs, because there are not a lot of first ballot HOFers.

To go along with holdovers - Schilling, Bonds, Clemens, Manny, Sosa - here are the best candidates of the next few classes:

2021 - None
2022 - Ortiz, ARod
2023 - Beltran, Francisco Rodriguez
2024 - Beltre, Victor Martinez, Joe Mauer
2025 - Sabathia, Ichiro

 

DanoooME

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There are people on corners of the internet who argue up and down Vizquel should be in. Whatever. Baines being inducted really made it so that I no longer care who makes it, just put in everyone who was an all star at any point. But if we're going with the same standards of most of all history, Vizquel shouldn't even be an argument. Guy was slightly better than average for a long time. Hard pass.
Yes, let's make up for the Rabbit Maranville mistake by putting Vizquel in. It's so dumb.

As mentioned above, this is the best chance for Bonds, Clemens, et al to get in.

My ballot would have Bonds, Clemens (both because I think they were HOF caliber before the roids and even an average career after that point would get them in), and Manny.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Oct 23, 2001
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Yes, let's make up for the Rabbit Maranville mistake by putting Vizquel in. It's so dumb.
At least Maranville was a big personality in an era where baseball became the National Pastime, so maybe he belongs in a Hall of "Fame." Did Omar Vizquel have to shoo away fans in hotel lobbies? Do fans (other than in Cleveland, maybe) bother him for autographs when (or more likely, if) they recognize him in a restaurant today?

The idea that Vizquel is anything more than the Harold Baines of shortstops is ridiculous. He received MVP votes in exactly one season, when he finished 16th because one guy placed him 8th. Maranville received MVP votes in 8 seasons, including finishing second once and third once.

Vizquel was never close to being the best shortstop in baseball (despite the gold gloves) in a career that overlapped with Rodriguez, Jeter, Nomar, Ripken, Ozzie Smith, Larkin, Tejada, Rollins, etc...
 
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HowBoutDemSox

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Aug 12, 2009
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Anyone that does not think Bonds should be in, I shall present my traditional counterargument: Barry Bonds' Baseball Reference Page

Yeah he did steroids, but anybody who has those stats should be in.
The numbers are just mind bending. Some highlights from a Deadspin article:
—If you turned every home run Bonds ever hit into an out, his career on base percentage would be .384, the same as Alex Rodriguez's.

—Bonds's slugging percentage in 2001 was .863. If that were his OPS, it would have ranked 27th in the National League, just behind teammate and defending MVP Jeff Kent's .877 mark.

—Bonds made 85 fewer outs than Ken Griffey Jr. did in 1,302 more plate appearances

—Bonds hit .333/.488/.576 against Pedro Martínez in 43 plate appearances; only Luis Gonzalez (of all people) hit him better.

—Bonds hit Randy Johnson for a 1.003 OPS in 62 plate appearances; no other left-handed hitter with 50 PAs did better than .888, and left-handers overall hit .199/.278/.294.

—After the San Francisco Giants moved to what is now known as AT&T Park, Bonds slugged .753 there in 1996 plate appearances, which is what Mark McGwire did in 1998, the year he hit 70 home runs.

—Bonds took the extra base—advancing more than one base on a single, or more than two on a double—43 percent of the time, more often than Ichiro Suzuki
 

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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Anyone that does not think Bonds should be in, I shall present my traditional counterargument: Barry Bonds' Baseball Reference Page

Yeah he did steroids, but anybody who has those stats should be in.
Yup, even if you assume he ingested the entire inventory of Bay Area pharmacies, what he did at age 39 is out of this world. 120 IBB will never be topped. 688 IBB will never be approached

He has more lifetime IBB than Ichiro Suziki, a 10 time all-star who led the league in PA 4 times, and had 700+PA for10 years, has lifetime BB

Lifetime IBB list for context:
 
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BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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Anyone that does not think Bonds should be in, I shall present my traditional counterargument: Barry Bonds' Baseball Reference Page

Yeah he did steroids, but anybody who has those stats should be in.
There were other people doing steroids when Bonds was. But nobody - absolutely nobody - put up Bonds' numbers (or even came anywhere close) during those years. That tells you how great he was. He was head and shoulders above the rest of the best players in baseball at the time, it wasn't even funny.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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There were other people doing steroids when Bonds was. But nobody - absolutely nobody - put up Bonds' numbers (or even came anywhere close) during those years. That tells you how great he was. He was head and shoulders above the rest of the best players in baseball at the time, it wasn't even funny.
Intentional?
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
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There were other people doing steroids when Bonds was. But nobody - absolutely nobody - put up Bonds' numbers (or even came anywhere close) during those years. That tells you how great he was. He was head and shoulders above the rest of the best players in baseball at the time, it wasn't even funny.
Yeah, I don't care if someone doesn't want to vote for Gary Sheffield due to steroids, but I think it is pretty logical to have a stance of "I don't vote for anybody connected to steroids, unless they had a four year stretch with an average OPS+ of 256. Then I vote for them."
 

David Laurila

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Y'all are missing the big news here, because SoSH's own @David Laurila is now a HOF voter. Congrats man! Come weigh in on Bonds / Clemens / Schilling, at least.

(hat tip to Jay Jaffe on that item)
First, it's obviously an honor to have a HoF vote. As for Bonds/Clemens/Schilling, I'm honestly not decided at this point in time. I've gone back and forth on the steroid-era issue countless times, and where I finally land will have a huge impact on what my ballot looks like. I'm what you'd call "a big-Hall guy," so if I give the PED-implicated/suspected players -- of which there are many -- the benefit of a doubt, there's a decent chance I'll be checking off 10 names. As for the guy who played a big role on a certain night back in 2004... let's just say it's the hardest decision I'm going to have to make -- more so than PED conundrum.

All that said, Jay Jaffe and I will be doing a FanGraphs Audio segment on this year's Hall of Fame ballot at some point in the coming month, most likely in early December. That should be fun, in part because he and I differ somewhat in what constitutes a Hall-worthy player.
 

scottyno

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The Case Against Curt Schilling.

Craig Calcaterra has an interesting argument against putting Schilling in the Hall, and it's not because of baseball merits or his GOP political affiliations.
This article makes no sense "I am not invoking the character clause", yet he says he's a good enough pitcher to be a hall of famer, that he would have voted for him until this year, and that he wouldn't vote for him entirely because of his character
 

grimshaw

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May 16, 2007
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Holding my nose while saying this, but I think Pettitte should be considered with 256 wins and a 68 fWAR. Standards for starting pitchers have been trending too far up. I'm also a Billy Wagner guy.

Vizquel getting 42% of the vote with an 82 OPS+ and 11 gold gloves compared to Scott Rolen getting 17% with his OPS+ of 122 and 8 gold gloves is ridiculous. He was legitimately a platinum glove candidate a few of those years too.
 
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