2015 Patriots 53-man Roster & Practice Squad Watch

vadertime

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Can somebody explain NFL IR in training camp?
 
For example why did they put Gibson directly on IR, but Gaffney they (had to?) waived then placed on IR.  Is it a veteran/rookie thing?
 

amfox1

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vadertime said:
Can somebody explain NFL IR in training camp?
 
For example why did they put Gibson directly on IR, but Gaffney they (had to?) waived then placed on IR.  Is it a veteran/rookie thing?
 
Prior to the first cutdown date, injured players with less than four years of service cannot go onto IR until they pass through waivers.  
 
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I had heard pretty good things about Antonio Johnson so far in camp. Smells like a BB giving a vet the courtesy of hooking on with another club before getting much deeper into the pre-season.
 

Stitch01

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Yeah, I mean he's going back to the IR and incredibly might be back for a fifth training camp next year.
 

H78

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Random question...


If a player is injured in training camp and then released, is the team/NFL on the hook for their medical care?
 

soxfan121

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Yes. That's why players are waived/injured and placed on IR or given an injury settlement. There's specific rules in the CBA about the NFL's version of worker's comp if you're interested in more details. 
 

Super Nomario

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Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
I had heard pretty good things about Antonio Johnson so far in camp. Smells like a BB giving a vet the courtesy of hooking on with another club before getting much deeper into the pre-season.
My takeaway is that they see Brown as plug-and-play day one. I think he has a good chance to be the biggest impact rookie since McCourty.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Super Nomario said:
My takeaway is that they see Brown as plug-and-play day one. I think he has a good chance to be the biggest impact rookie since McCourty.
 
I bet Antonio Johnson makes a patented mid-season appearance from the "shadow roster", aka Ernie's Special. 
 

redsox13

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Kenbrell Thompkins is not a lock to make the Raiders' 53-man. Could become available.
 
 
That would be awesome.  I'd love to watch Brady drill him in the numbers with calls that he can't hold onto.  Motherfucker has Hamburger Helper hands.  
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Hmmm -- I guess I was wrong to leave Fleming off my 53-man roster. Per PFF:
 
@PFF Cameron Fleming has the most pass blocking snaps (69) of any tackle w/o allowing a pressure in preseason. 
 

JerBear

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Hmmm -- I guess I was wrong to leave Fleming off my 53-man roster. Per PFF:
 
@PFF Cameron Fleming has the most pass blocking snaps (69) of any tackle w/o allowing a pressure in preseason. 
He looked terrible in pass blocking when I watched him tonight. Never got a good step, constantly getting pushed back, whiffed a cut block.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Apparently Develin out for the season with a broken tibula. This sucks. 
 
David J. Chao, MD @ProFootballDoc
Fractured tibia/fibula requires surgery with rod thru tibia. IR but good for next season, like #PaulGeorge. #JamesDevelin @Patriots
 
This resets the RB depth. They just cut Kettani, but I think they may go w/o a FB. 
 

RedOctober3829

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SeoulSoxFan said:
 
Apparently Develin out for the season with a broken tibula. This sucks. 
 
David J. Chao, MD @ProFootballDoc
Fractured tibia/fibula requires surgery with rod thru tibia. IR but good for next season, like #PaulGeorge. #JamesDevelin @Patriots
 
This resets the RB depth. They just cut Kettani, but I think they may go w/o a FB. 
 
Hooman can move into that role too with Chandler/Gronk/Williams playing TE.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Updated picks, after injuries to Brandon Gibson, Daryl Roberts & James Develin. Changes from my last picks in red:
 
QB (2) T.Brady, J.Garoppolo
  • No change here
RB (5) L.Blount, J.Gray, B.Bolden, J.White, D.Lewis
  • Love, love, love Dion Lewis. He looks like a quicker version of Woodhead -- and can pass protect!
  • Lewis would have made the team even without Develin's injury
WR (6) J.Edelman, M.Slater, B.LaFell, D.Amendola, R.Wayne, C.Harper
  • Dobson is out. Just no fight in him. Size only thing even making this close
  • Harper has to make the team at this point. Has done everything including return punts and kicks
  • Wayne means buh bye Joyce. Wait, buh bye Joyce even if we signed the corpse of John Wayne
TE (3) R.Gronkowski, S.Chandler, M.Williams
  • Hooman, with his salary, may be gone. Converted TE Mike Williams practicing again at TE and makes the team
C  (2) B.Stork, D.Andrews
  • Love the Andrews kid. 
  • Kudos to DeGuglielmo, who has made the transition as smooth as one can hope for
G  (3) T.Jackson, R.Wendell, S.Mason
  • Shaq Mason is going to be very, very good after he gets his feet wet
T  (4) M.Cannon, N.Solder, S.Vollmer, C.Fleming
  • Atoning my mistake and keeping Fleming. 
  • Fleming has had zero pressures in all of his pass protection snap according to PFF
DE (5) R.Ninkovich, C.Jones, T.Flowers, J.Sheard, G.Grissom
  • Trey Flowers is the surprise of the camp. It's going to really fun
DT (4) D.Easley, S.Siliga, M.Brown, A.Branch
  • Still wouldn't be surprised if Branch is cut
  • Healthy Easley next to Brown is going to be spectacular "for years to come"
ILB(2) D.Hightower, J.Morris
  • Is Morris to Bruschi comparison too easy?
OLB(4) J.Mayo, J.Collins, J.Freeny, R.Johnson
  • Freeny & Johnson has gotten a lot of work, and held their own
  • The depth of front-seven would be more talked about if not for the vaunted Bills, Jets, and Dolphins front-seven
CB (4) L.Ryan, M.Butler, T.Brown, M.McClain
  • Still very, very worried about this group. Injury to Roberts means Ryan makes it. 
  • By "making it" I mean by default, hanging by a thread
  • Not sure if BB will really carry only 4 CB, but with McCourty practicing at this spot I think they carry an extra position elsewhere
SS (4) P.Chung, N.Ebner, T.Wilson, J.Richards
  • Not saying much, but Ebner has been looking like a real safety against the backups
  • Richards can recognize plays faster than Wilson or even Chung. Football IQ seems as advertised
FS (2) D.McCourty, D.Harmon
  • Harmon is not in McCourty's class, but lots of promise after seemingly making another jump in camp
ST (3) S.Gostkowski, R.Allen, J.Cardona
  • Ho-hum
I don't know if it's worth bringing Kettani back. I'd rather keep 1 more from the talented RB group. Love Develin and just sucks to lose him. 
 

axx

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I thought Jimmy G played pretty well after the really awful start (should have had a Pick 6 and threw another one which was bad and should have been picked). Didn't like the run blocking either when the first unit was out there.
 

RedOctober3829

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 QB (2) T.Brady, J.Garoppolo
 
RB (5) L.Blount, J.Gray, D.Lewis, J.White, B.Bolden
--I think Lewis has shown enough to make the team over Cadet.
 
WR (6) J.Edelman, M.Slater, B.LaFell, D.Amendola, A.Dobson, R.Wayne
--Dobson was my 53rd man but he easily could be cut.
 
TE (3) R.Gronkowski, M.Hoomanawanui, S.Chandler
--With the loss of Develin, Hooman becomes an even stronger lock to make it.
 
C  (3) B.Stork, S.Mason, D.Andrews
--Really like David Andrews and think he could be a solid player down the road.
 
G  (2) T.Jackson, R.Wendell
--Mason is a guard but is listed as a center.  These three could actually be used in a rotation given Wendell's injury history.  Keep everybody fresh.
 
T  (4) M.Cannon, N.Solder, S.Vollmer, C.Fleming
--Fleming is the swing tackle again.
 
DE (5) R.Ninkovich, C.Jones, T.Flowers, J.Sheard, G.Grissom
--This grouping has me happy in the pants.
 
DT (4) D.Easley, A.Branch, M.Brown, S.Siliga
--See above.
 
ILB(2) D.Hightower, J.Morris
--Morris is injury insurance for Hightower.
 
OLB(3) J.Mayo, J.Collins, D.Fleming
--Be interesting to see how Mayo fits into this more athletic grouping.
 
CB (6) L.Ryan, M.Butler, R. McClain, B.Fletcher, D.Swanson, T.Brown
--Swanson played his way into a spot tonight especially since Roberts' injury doesn't look good.
 
SS (3) P.Chung, J.Richards, N.Ebner
--Richards adds another physical presence inside the box.  Would allow Chung to play the TE more in nickel and also be almost a 6th LB.
 
FS (2) D.McCourty, D.Harmon
 
ST (3) S.Gostkowski, R.Allen, J.Cardona
 

joe dokes

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David J. Chao, MD @ProFootballDoc
Fractured tibia/fibula requires surgery with rod thru tibia. IR but good for next season,
 
Apparently no ligament damage on Develin's knee, as it was clean break.

Out "only" 6 to 8 weeks if surgery goes well.
 
 
So....
 

Ed Hillel

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Develin isn't worth IR DTR. Is he worth playing short for a month? Probably not, so IR seems likely.
 

soxfan121

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SeoulSoxFan said:
 
Apparently Develin out for the season with a broken tibula. This sucks. 
 
David J. Chao, MD @ProFootballDoc
Fractured tibia/fibula requires surgery with rod thru tibia. IR but good for next season, like #PaulGeorge. #JamesDevelin @Patriots
 
This resets the RB depth. They just cut Kettani, but I think they may go w/o a FB. 
 
 
Dude, Chao's a hack. 
 
When you want to know for sure, ask daverobertsshoes:
 
 
Me
 
Develin stayed in Charlotte, having a rod put in to his broken leg; extremely rare a player doesn't travel home to have such stuff done, right?
 
 
Doctor $10
 
Yeah - must have been a displaced tibial shaft fracture- nailed it so he wouldn't get compartment syndrome. Not something you want to get on a plane with. He's done for the year
 
As for fullback, either the Williams kid (the TE/OT) or Shaq Mason can fill the blocking role, if necessary. Develin will be missed in the passing game, but a healthy Scott Chandler was gonna eat into his snaps anyway.
 

RedOctober3829

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soxfan121 said:
 
Dude, Chao's a hack. 
 
When you want to know for sure, ask daverobertsshoes:
 
 
 
As for fullback, either the Williams kid (the TE/OT) or Shaq Mason can fill the blocking role, if necessary. Develin will be missed in the passing game, but a healthy Scott Chandler was gonna eat into his snaps anyway.
Also, he only played in 19% of the snaps last season to begin with.  Not that much to replace.
 

mwonow

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RedOctober3829 said:
Also, he only played in 19% of the snaps last season to begin with.  Not that much to replace.
 
Definitely a loss, Develin seems to have a lot of respect from his teammates, and provides leadership and toughness (feel free to ask the Colts what happens when you're lacking in these areas!). 
 
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats sign a "natural" fullback after week 1.
 

dynomite

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RedOctober3829 said:
Also, he only played in 19% of the snaps last season to begin with.  Not that much to replace.
19% is actually a lot, isn't it? Especially when those snaps come primarily in certain situations (goal line, running downs, etc.)

He's not the most important player on the offense, but this ain't the 5th WR either.
 

Super Nomario

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Compiled from Chris Price, leaders in special teams snaps last night:
 
LB Jonathan Freeny - 23
S Tavon Wilson - 22
LB Darius Fleming - 20
S Brandon King - 19
S Nate Ebner - 17
CB Robert McClain - 14
S Jordan Richards - 13
CB Logan Ryan - 13
S Duron Harmon - 12
Edge Geneo Grissom - 12
LB James Morris - 10
 

soxfan121

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dynomite said:
19% is actually a lot, isn't it? Especially when those snaps come primarily in certain situations (goal line, running downs, etc.)

He's not the most important player on the offense, but this ain't the 5th WR either.
 I believe RO was factoring in Chandler, as Develin got a fair amount of action as 2nd or 3rd TE/H-back in some games because of injuries; the depth chart at that position is different with Chandler in the mix, as well as the type of sets they'll probably prefer. More Chandler meant less Develin before this injury. As for goal line blocking, that's where Williams or Mason or Fleming steps into the FB role. 

Develin had carved himself out a niche on this team, especially on special teams. He'll probably be missed there more than on offense. 
 

Super Nomario

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soxfan121 said:
 I believe RO was factoring in Chandler, as Develin got a fair amount of action as 2nd or 3rd TE/H-back in some games because of injuries; the depth chart at that position is different with Chandler in the mix, as well as the type of sets they'll probably prefer. More Chandler meant less Develin before this injury. As for goal line blocking, that's where Williams or Mason or Fleming steps into the FB role. 

Develin had carved himself out a niche on this team, especially on special teams. He'll probably be missed there more than on offense. 
Surprisingly, Develin was not a big special teamer. He finished 16th on the team last year in ST snaps, playing in ~25% of them. Hoomanawanui was on 30%, for reference.
 
I do agree that there was probably a smaller role for a FB given how they upgraded the second TE and third WR positions. There are some blocking advantages to the FB, however, as Belichick detailed in one of my favorite BB X's & O's responses ever. I think it's likely they won't roster one rather than bring back Kettani or someone else.
 

RedOctober3829

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soxfan121 said:
 I believe RO was factoring in Chandler, as Develin got a fair amount of action as 2nd or 3rd TE/H-back in some games because of injuries; the depth chart at that position is different with Chandler in the mix, as well as the type of sets they'll probably prefer. More Chandler meant less Develin before this injury. As for goal line blocking, that's where Williams or Mason or Fleming steps into the FB role. 

Develin had carved himself out a niche on this team, especially on special teams. He'll probably be missed there more than on offense. 
Between Chandler, Hooman, Williams, and other backs there are more than enough bodies to replace the 19% of the offensive snaps he was on the field for.  As 121 says, ST is where he will be missed.  He was really good on kickoff return as part of the wedge.  As we all know, the Patriots are a game plan oriented team.  One player's role isn't the same for every game.  Develin will be missed when they go run heavy(hello, Week 6).
 

Tony C

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So far this pre-season I'd say the "up" signs are more plentiful than the "down" signs. 
 
ups are mostly on the defensive side:
1-DL looks like it might take a step up with Malcolm B and, especially Dominique E. I was excited by the Easley pick last year and more so now that he seems to be breaking through a bit. And Sheard looks like a needed addition on the end. 
2-count me as optimistic about Terrell B and Fletcher B. as corners, and Butler, too. I think the loss of Browner is highly over-rated. Revis will never be replace-able, but DBs are about making sure there's not a weak spot that can be picked on (of course, a Revis helped there because he freed up others for double teams). Am feeling confident about the Pats' depth.
3-Jimmy G. does look promising, in case needed. 
 
Downs are mostly on offense. I could list them, but mostly it's due to injuries that "seem" to be mainly short-term, perhaps with the exception of Lafell. Hard to judge the OL or the WR corps as they really haven't played as such. That is a down, but not yet such a worrying one. Dobson and Boyce are the 2 true "downs" as in it's hard to see their role on this team beyond stop-gap bodies due to injuries. I am a bit anxious on Lafell since WR depth is an issue....so an interim "down" there, too.
 
Overall, though, excited by the defense and beginning to get hyped for the season to begin.
 

amarshal2

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SeoulSoxFan said:
CB (4) L.Ryan, M.Butler, T.Brown, M.McClain
  • Still very, very worried about this group. Injury to Roberts means Ryan makes it. 
  • By "making it" I mean by default, hanging by a thread
  • Not sure if BB will really carry only 4 CB, but with McCourty practicing at this spot I think they carry an extra position elsewhere
Even with McCourty I am really concerned about the thought of having only 4 CBs on the roster. I don't think that's a bet Bill makes. Sounds like Fletcher would be most obvious and would slot ahead of McClain who looked like the weakest link yesterday. If they loved Roberts maybe he's the IRDTR (do they have to cut him for that?).

The most obvious place to remove a name based on the sheer number of names at the position is SS:

SS (4) P.Chung, N.Ebner, T.Wilson, J.Richards
  • Not saying much, but Ebner has been looking like a real safety against the backups
  • Richards can recognize plays faster than Wilson or even Chung. Football IQ seems as advertised
 
It's so tough because Ebner and Wilson are very strong on ST. But there's no way Richards is cut and it seems Chung is the starter - they haven't really been auditioning anybody else in his role so I think he's safe. On the other hand, carrying 4 ST non-specialists (Bolden, Slater) seems like a lot. Bolden had that extension and is going to get offensive snaps. He's safe. Is there any chance Slater is cut? I don't know, that would be a Mankins move if there ever was one. If not, it comes down to who offers more between Wilson and Ebner. Wilson has a more regular role on defense but that could be taken over by Richards very soon making him redundant. IF this is the position then my gut says Ebner is a very tough cut who is picked up elsewhere immediately.

Alternatively, you could remove an OLB and argue that Richards takes that place. Worse LB depth but stronger players on ST who actually play. Also the LBs they would cut are less likely to get picked up right away, I think. I'm a little out of my depth here but maybe this is the spot.

Seems like Andrews could be a guy they try and sneak through to PS (Wendell can backup C) but I think they just opt for another G or TE instead of thinning OL depth.

If I gotta cut somebody it's one of the reserve LBs (D Fleming/Freeny or Rufus, though he's intriguing) over Ebner or a promising C prospect but I'm guessing BB will do something surprising that makes a lot more sense when we look back 6-18 months from now.

This is usually where SN points out something insightful I missed that turns out to be correct.
 

axx

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Any news on Lindley? Think he plays at all in the finale? (This assumes nothing happens in the Brady saga this week of course)
 

lambeau

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I don't think BB can live without a fullback. Develin was important in running games like Cincinnati and Indianapolis, blocking on the large majority of rushes.
Only the 49ers, and maybe the Ravens and Bengals, value a fullback more. Certainly he can be replaced in the passing game, but not in ground and pound.
 

Super Nomario

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amarshal2 said:
It's so tough because Ebner and Wilson are very strong on ST. But there's no way Richards is cut and it seems Chung is the starter - they haven't really been auditioning anybody else in his role so I think he's safe. On the other hand, carrying 4 ST non-specialists (Bolden, Slater) seems like a lot. Bolden had that extension and is going to get offensive snaps. He's safe. Is there any chance Slater is cut? I don't know, that would be a Mankins move if there ever was one. If not, it comes down to who offers more between Wilson and Ebner. Wilson has a more regular role on defense but that could be taken over by Richards very soon making him redundant. IF this is the position then my gut says Ebner is a very tough cut who is picked up elsewhere immediately.
Four non-specialist special teamers isn't a lot - last year they really had six (Wilson, Slater, Bolden, White, Ebner, and Don Jones / Darius Fleming) and basically a seventh once Casillas came on board. That said, I mostly agree - special teams is probably more important than defense for these spots, but you want guys who can contribute in a pinch, like Casillas or Bolden could. Wilson and Ebner don't really provide any meaningful depth because they already have Harmon and Richards - someone like Freeny who can play LB in a pinch might make more sense. And Brandon King is another guy they really seem to like as a special-teamer - he has a real chance of making it because they have three years of control with him and just one with Wilson and Ebner.
 
amarshal2 said:
Seems like Andrews could be a guy they try and sneak through to PS (Wendell can backup C) but I think they just opt for another G or TE instead of thinning OL depth.
Yeah, this is my reading. They don't need a pure C backup because they can just move Wendell over; that's what they did last year.
 
amarshal2 said:
This is usually where SN points out something insightful I missed that turns out to be correct.
Nah, I mostly agree. I guess the other thing to remember is that there's a lot of tinkering at the end of the roster. Belichick might cut all these guys and then pick up a S some other team cut. :) 
 
 
lambeau said:
It's hard to imagine Dobson will be cut, especially if they think Harper can be slid onto the practice squad. Nobody wants to see Dobson starting against Pittsburgh, but unfortunately
LaFell and Wayne may not be ready. 
 
As for Develin, he played 177 rushing snaps--45%? He was important in running game plans, like Cincinnati and Indianapolis, blocking on 65-75% running plays.
Overall, only San Francisco, Baltimore, and Cincinnati used a fullback more to block in the running game. I don't think BB can live without a fullback.
They've gone without a fullback before. Develin's only been on the team the past two years, and before that the hadn't had one since Heath Evans in '08. I wonder if McDaniels is a big FB guy; they never had a fullback under O'Brien, but they've had Develin the last two years and the year before that they tried to add Tony Fiammetta and somebody else but they got hurt. Of course, the O'Brien years coincided with the two-TE offense, and with Chandler aboard maybe they're back to not needing one.
 

dbn

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IIRC, the Patriots went without a FB on the roster for a number of years. 
 
I, for one, think this is a significant* blow. Anecdotally, I thought the running game functioned a lot better with Develin at FB.
 
 
 
* (I'm using the term "significant" in the statistical/scientific sense as meaning anything more than insignificant, not in the colloquial sense meaning super duper important.)
 

Super Nomario

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Tony C said:
Downs are mostly on offense. I could list them, but mostly it's due to injuries that "seem" to be mainly short-term, perhaps with the exception of Lafell. Hard to judge the OL or the WR corps as they really haven't played as such. That is a down, but not yet such a worrying one. Dobson and Boyce are the 2 true "downs" as in it's hard to see their role on this team beyond stop-gap bodies due to injuries. I am a bit anxious on Lafell since WR depth is an issue....so an interim "down" there, too.
I might be crazy, but ... was Dobson really that bad the other night?
  • It was really bad that he got the ball taken from him by Tillman on that one play, but he had the ball in his hands on the ground for what would have been a big gain. And if Brady leads him more towards the middle of the field, Tillman doesn't even have the opportunity to get his hands in there.
  • The second pick was on Brady. Dobson could have done a better job fighting for position, but Brady has to see that safety charging in.
  • Illegal block was bad, but ultimately run-blocking penalties is only a small part of evaluating WRs.
  • He was open on a long crossing pattern but Garoppolo was late and the DB made a play. Nice route.
  • 40-yard gain on the sweet double-move to set up a score
  • well-executed 11-yard out on the game-winning drive
With a couple better throws he could have had a 100-yard game. I think there are still questions about his hands and his ability to fight for the ball in the air, but his route-running looked pretty sharp. I also liked that he bounced back to make a few plays after a tough go of it early. He actually ended up leading the team in receiving yards. Given what we've seen so far from Dobson it's fair to be skeptical that he'll pan out, but his night Friday wasn't a disaster like Boyce had a couple weeks ago.