If the RS sign Montgomery are you satisfied with the off-season?

If the RS sign Montgomery, what is your opinion of the RS Off-season moves?

  • Great

    Votes: 26 8.3%
  • Good

    Votes: 142 45.4%
  • Okay

    Votes: 103 32.9%
  • Bad

    Votes: 24 7.7%
  • Awful

    Votes: 11 3.5%
  • Signing him just makes the off-season worse

    Votes: 3 1.0%
  • The off-season was successful already, no need to sign him

    Votes: 4 1.3%

  • Total voters
    313
  • Poll closed .

HfxBob

New Member
Nov 13, 2005
622
I
How the hell are there 156 people who think this off season has gone better than I do?

It's been a halfway decent off season. I like most of the moves. Depending on the details of a Montgomery contract, I'll probably like it.

But we need a legitimate ace and Montgomery isn't it.
Why do we or any team need a "legitimate ace"?

Texas had two "legitimate aces" last year, deGrom and Scherzer, but the guys who led them to the title were Eovaldi and Montgomery.

Plus Montgomery was one of the best dozen starters in 2023 according to both fWAR and bWAR.
 

YTF

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How the hell are there 156 people who think this off season has gone better than I do?

It's been a halfway decent off season. I like most of the moves. Depending on the details of a Montgomery contract, I'll probably like it.

But we need a legitimate ace and Montgomery isn't it.
Most of us were hopeful that Yamamoto might be that guy, but looking back at how that all played out it wasn't going to happen. Nor were Ohtani and Nola. That didn't leave a who;e ton of "ace" material on the FA market. Early on when the idea of trading for a pitcher was a hot topic (specifically concerning Seattle as a partner) I was hoping Castillo might become that guy. It may have been costly concerning what the return might have to be, but given Seattle was dumping payroll at the time and few teams seemed to have enough young pitching in their systems where they might not be looking toward Boston for that sort of return I thought this was the best shot that they had at an ace this off season. The odds weren't great, but I thought Castillo was the best shot at filling that role.
 

picniclightning

New Member
Dec 7, 2005
30
Good or Great if the Sox can sign Montgomery for:
  • 3-5 years (not less than 3 because our window is not 2024, and not more than 4 unless incentive-laden based on performance)
  • no player opt out until after year 3
  • ~25M guaranteed AAV for first 2-3 years but incentives up to $30M in years 3-5
I'd be VERY disappointed if:
- they give him an opt out after year 1. A Bellinger-style contract would be a bad idea for Sox, leaving us with huge SP holes going into 2025
- or, they have to sign him for 6 years (I do not see that happening)
 

nvalvo

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How the hell are there 156 people who think this off season has gone better than I do?

It's been a halfway decent off season. I like most of the moves. Depending on the details of a Montgomery contract, I'll probably like it.

But we need a legitimate ace and Montgomery isn't it.
I mostly agree, but legitimate aces are rare and difficult to acquire. There were *probably* three available this offseason (Nola, Yamamoto, and Burnes), and they took a shot at one of them, offering per a recent report (from Bob Nightengale so YMMV, but still), $300m. Didn’t land him. That’s unfortunate, but that’s more the boundary between *good* and *great* IMO.

So that leaves us trying to acquire good pitchers. If Giolito turns out to be the best pitcher we acquire, that would fall short of a good offseason in my view, even as I like the O’Neill acquisition and think that the Sale-Grissom trade was basically a magic trick. If a Montgomery deal makes Giolito the second-best pitcher we acquire, I think that’s good.
 

mauf

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Breslow was brought in because he supposedly has a knack for identifying and developing pitching talent, so I’m on board with whatever he decides to do in that area. That said, it would be bizarre if the Sox spent the past 2-3 years pinching pennies so they could give a nine-figure guarantee to a JAG like Jordan Montgomery.
 

8slim

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Nov 6, 2001
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Why do we or any team need a "legitimate ace"?

Texas had two "legitimate aces" last year, deGrom and Scherzer, but the guys who led them to the title were Eovaldi and Montgomery.

Plus Montgomery was one of the best dozen starters in 2023 according to both fWAR and bWAR.
Forget the term “ace”. It just leads to unproductive semantic arguments.

I spent the back half of 2023 saying that the Sox needed to acquire TWO high-end starters.

As of right now we didn’t even acquire one. Giolito ain’t a high end starter. I could be convinced Montgomery is, but that still leaves us one short of the need.
 

8slim

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Gio, Monty and Bello make foa great front 3. Pivetta and Crawford I’d take almost any other team 4,5
I don’t see how that’s “great”. It’s conceivable they could be very good if everything goes remarkably well. But that would mean Giolito regaining his prior form, Bello making a leap to being a 160+ inning, sub-4.00 ERA guy, and Monty replicating his past couple season. None of that is impossible, but it’s no given (starting with the fact that Monty ain’t on the team right now).
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I don’t see how that’s “great”. It’s conceivable they could be very good if everything goes remarkably well. But that would mean Giolito regaining his prior form, Bello making a leap to being a 160+ inning, sub-4.00 ERA guy, and Monty replicating his past couple season. None of that is impossible, but it’s no given (starting with the fact that Monty ain’t on the team right now).
Okay sure. Yes, they "could" be, assuming health, etc... etc.... But any team has some question marks regarding it's top three too and as things stand right now I'm confident that a Gio, Bello, Monty trio could go toe to toe against any other teams top three in a playoff best of 5 and take it. And regarding "health", that trio seems like a better cluster to assume health throughout a season than say; Sale, Eovaldi and Bello, no?
 

HfxBob

New Member
Nov 13, 2005
622
Breslow was brought in because he supposedly has a knack for identifying and developing pitching talent, so I’m on board with whatever he decides to do in that area. That said, it would be bizarre if the Sox spent the past 2-3 years pinching pennies so they could give a nine-figure guarantee to a JAG like Jordan Montgomery.
Nine figures could be $100 mill or $300 mill.

Giving Montgomery $100 mill would not be bizarre IMHO. He's been one of the most durable and steady starters now going back to 2020.
 

8slim

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Okay sure. Yes, they "could" be, assuming health, etc... etc.... But any team has some question marks regarding it's top three too and as things stand right now I'm confident that a Gio, Bello, Monty trio could go toe to toe against any other teams top three in a playoff best of 5 and take it. And regarding "health", that trio seems like a better cluster to assume health throughout a season than say; Sale, Eovaldi and Bello, no?
Agree about health. And I do love the optimism, I’m just not there.

Obviously foremost because Montgomery isn’t on the team.

But also because I’m not sold on Giolito until he performs. It’s been a couple years since he was good for an entire season.

I’m far more optimistic about Bello performing well as a #2 than I am about Giolito doing the same as a #3.

Overall I just don’t think it’s enough.
 

8slim

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Truer words never spoken!
I suspect most of us think of “ace” in a very 1990s way, and that’s just not how the game is played anymore. The best SPs in baseball, save for a few outliers, don’t throw for 200 innings and don’t complete games.

30 years ago a guy like Montgomery would toss 220+ innings a year, complete 8-10 games and be considered a “workhorse”. Aces were guys like Clemens. Neither definition really exists today.
 

mauf

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Nine figures could be $100 mill or $300 mill.

Giving Montgomery $100 mill would not be bizarre IMHO. He's been one of the most durable and steady starters now going back to 2020.
He has consistently outperformed his peripherals over the past three years. If you don’t think he’ll continue to do that for the next 4 years, and if you think he’s unlikely to be as durable in his age 31-34 seasons as he was in his age 28-30 seasons, then 4/100 looks like a bad investment. And I’ll stand by my characterization of it as “bizarre” in light of ownership’s recent thrift — it’s the kind of deal that owners who spend like drunken sailors hand out. I’d be fine with it if ownership plans to be back to having a top-5 payroll in a year or two, but if they’re going to continue to be thrifty, I think signing Montgomery is a bad idea.
 

chrisfont9

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He has consistently outperformed his peripherals over the past three years. If you don’t think he’ll continue to do that for the next 4 years, and if you think he’s unlikely to be as durable in his age 31-34 seasons as he was in his age 28-30 seasons, then 4/100 looks like a bad investment. And I’ll stand by my characterization of it as “bizarre” in light of ownership’s recent thrift — it’s the kind of deal that owners who spend like drunken sailors hand out.
Bad value in a vacuum, sure. If he's not far off from his expected performance, if he makes 31-32 starts each year, if he makes the RS look more like a team other free agents should want to play for, then he helps the rising tide that lifts all the boats, or something like that. I definitely believe in a trickle-down effect on the rotation from having a top guy eat innings, even if on average he gives up 3 ER in 6IP. Saves the bullpen too. He could be a 3 bWAR player who actually makes the team like 7 or 8 games better.
 

dynomite

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That said, it would be bizarre if the Sox spent the past 2-3 years pinching pennies so they could give a nine-figure guarantee to a JAG like Jordan Montgomery.
Putting aside the nebulous concept of whether Montgomery is an "ace," I don't think I understand the idea that he's "Just Another Guy."

He's made 30+ starts with an ERA of 3.83 or less in three consecutive seasons. His FIP has been between 3.56 and 3.69 ever year. His ERA+ has been between 112 and 138. And as noted, by WAR he was one of the best SPs in the league last season.

The last Red Sox SP to start more than 30 games with an ERA below 3.83 was Eovaldi in 2021. Before that, it was ERod in 2019 and Price in 2018. Chris Sale only did it once in a Red Sox uniform (2017). I could be missing someone, but the last Red Sox SP I can find who did those two things in three consecutive seasons was Jon Lester. (And sure, it's cherrypicking two stats a bit, but I think 30+ starts and an ERA in the mid-3s are both reasonable indications of being a good SP)

I'm not saying Montgomery is as good as Lester in his prime. And I have to say I didn't pay much attention to Montgomery prior to his incredible 2023 postseason. But looking at his numbers, the fact is that he's been a very good pitcher for a while.

As long as the contract isn't crazy, I'd call it a "good" offseason. You can see a plan from Breslow and co. taking shape, addressing the glaring pitching needs this organization has. He's added youth in Grissom in exchange for an aging, oft-injured Sale and cash. He's replaced Duval with a better fielding OF who has power upside. There would still be some question marks on the MLB roster but considering the spending restrictions Breslow has apparently been on, he'd have put together a solid squad while continuing to build for the future.

I'd call it solid, if unspectacular (no Ohtani, Yamamoto) and a step in the right direction. And I'd put it into the "great" category if Breslow can get Casas and/or Bello signed to extensions.
I agree with this.
 
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circus catch

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Nov 6, 2009
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As much as I want us to sign Montgomery, he hasn't been as good as Nola and shouldn't be paid as much. If Boras was really shooting for more than Nola got he was being ridiculous and it's no wonder Monty is still waiting.
A couple of issues with this. First, if Montgomery shouldn't be paid as much, how bad of a deal would it be to give him the same amount? Is it atrocious? I don't think so. I get recognizing it's a steep price, but that's different than being a total mistake. This team does not have contract issues. A moderate overpay at the top of the rotation isn't a bad thing.

Also, while it's true that Nola has had a better career, Montgomery had a better season, and his talents have been ascending. His innings have increased three straight years as his era has dropped four straight years, and he's now a playoff hero. Sure that pattern is unlikely to continue, but if he settles in around where he is now for a few years, he'll be near Nola's value.
 

simplicio

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Breslow was brought in because he supposedly has a knack for identifying and developing pitching talent, so I’m on board with whatever he decides to do in that area. That said, it would be bizarre if the Sox spent the past 2-3 years pinching pennies so they could give a nine-figure guarantee to a JAG like Jordan Montgomery.
I'm agreement with trusting Breslow/Bailey's evaluations of pitchers one way or another.

I think Montgomery is much more than JAG though, he's consistently been a top 20 starter in the game since he came back from surgery, plus his way of doing that (consistent long starts) lines up exactly with the weakness in our existing rotation (barely getting through 5 IP).

I also believe it makes total sense to add someone like that now or next winter, when it didn't before. We finally have an infield you can project years into the future without Christian Arroyo types getting significant time, and a new outfield crop ready to start proving something this year. If FA starters can generally only be had at age 30 and up and they're likely going to finish their contracts poorly, why would you waste their best remaining years before putting a decent team in place?
 

In my lifetime

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If the RS can sign Montgomery, they would have signed 2 of the top 12 free agents (as measured by this year's fangraph's projected performance ) with a total projected 2024 WAR of 5.5. Of course they did lose Paxton in free agency, who is projected for a WAR of 1.8, which is being replaced. Signing Montgomery should put them in the WC race, which at least provides for an interesting baseball season if you are a RS fan.

The counter-argument is that the 2023 RS were a sub .500, last place team and that these signings plus the trades still leave them with the 5th most projected WAR in their division. However worst to first doesn't happen often and typically requires lightning to be caught in a bottle.

Aaron Nola
4.2​
Shohei Ohtani
4.2​
Jung Hoo Lee
3.4​
Yoshinobu Yamamoto
3.4​
Blake Snell
3.3​
Jordan Montgomery
3.2​
Sonny Gray
3.1​
Eduardo Rodriguez
2.9​
Shota Imanaga
2.6​
Matt Chapman
2.6​
Lucas Giolito
2.3​
Cody Bellinger
2.3​
 
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Sandy Leon Trotsky

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If the RS can sign Montgomery, they would have signed 2 of the top 12 free agents (as measured by this year's fangraph's projected performance ) with a total projected 2024 WAR of 5.5. Of course they did lose Paxton in free agency, who is projected for a WAR of 1.8, which is being replaced. Signing Montgomery should put them in the WC race, which at least provides for an interesting baseball season if you are a RS fan.

The counter-argument is that the 2023 RS were a sub .500, last place team and that these signings plus the trades still leave them with the 5th most projected WAR in their division. However worst to first doesn't happen often and typically requires lightning to be caught in a bottle.

Aaron Nola
4.2​
Shohei Ohtani
4.2​
Jung Hoo Lee
3.4​
Yoshinobu Yamamoto
3.4​
Blake Snell
3.3​
Jordan Montgomery
3.2​
Sonny Gray
3.1​
Eduardo Rodriguez
2.9​
Shota Imanaga
2.6​
Matt Chapman
2.6​
Lucas Giolito
2.3​
Cody Bellinger
2.3​

I don't get the people who don't think that JUST adding Montgomery right now- to the '24 team- wouldn't turn them into a playoff contender. Are they the same types that claim they'd rather watch a "consistent playoff contender" than a Boom/Bust team? Because adding him is exactly what the team would be, and he'd stabilize the rotation for at least the next 2 seasons as a top rotation guy before starting his downturn- and the way he pitches, I suspect he'll still be a net positive beyond 3 years. He isn't a traditional "ace" but he's a very good pitcher that can throw a lot of innings. We need that and again, I don't see him becoming an anchor on the team or blocking any pitchers in the future.
 

Rasputin

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Forget the term “ace”. It just leads to unproductive semantic arguments.

I spent the back half of 2023 saying that the Sox needed to acquire TWO high-end starters.

As of right now we didn’t even acquire one. Giolito ain’t a high end starter. I could be convinced Montgomery is, but that still leaves us one short of the need.
Yeah, that's a better phraseology.
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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Putting aside the nebulous concept of whether Montgomery is an "ace," I don't think I understand the idea that he's "Just Another Guy."

He's made 30+ starts with an ERA of 3.83 or less in three consecutive seasons. His FIP has been between 3.56 and 3.69 ever year. His ERA+ has been between 112 and 138. And as noted, by WAR he was one of the best SPs in the league last season.

The last Red Sox SP to start more than 30 games with an ERA below 3.83 was Eovaldi in 2021. Before that, it was ERod in 2019 and Price in 2018. Chris Sale only did it once in a Red Sox uniform (2017). I could be missing someone, but the last Red Sox SP I can find who did those two things in three consecutive seasons was Jon Lester. (And sure, it's cherrypicking two stats a bit, but I think 30+ starts and an ERA in the mid-3s are both reasonable indications of being a good SP)

I'm not saying Montgomery is as good as Lester in his prime. And I have to say I didn't pay much attention to Montgomery prior to his incredible 2023 postseason. But looking at his numbers, the fact is that he's been a very good pitcher for a while.



I agree with this.
Agreed. The guy is a proven quality MLB starting pitcher. The Red Sox certainly could use a couple more of those. He’d instantly be the best starter on the team.
 

Bibsley

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Oct 8, 2008
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I don't suppose it says much that we don't already know, but this is pretty good summary of Montgomery's market; mostly the curse of being reliably good but not potentially great.
 
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chawson

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I don't suppose it says much that we don't already know, but this is pretty good summary of Montgomery's market; mostly the curse of being reliably good but not potentially great.
This is a good piece, thanks for sharing.

This part’s pretty interesting…

Which is where we get into the issue of the non-linear value of WAR. The difference in value between a 1 win pitcher and a 3 win pitcher is smaller than the difference in value between a 3 win pitcher and a 5 win pitcher. And if you think that Jordan Montgomery and Carlos Rodon are both likely to give you, say, 15 WAR over the next 5 years, but Montgomery is going to be a consistent 3 win pitcher throughout that period while Rodon will be a 5-6 win pitcher for a good chunk of that stretch and a 0-1 win or hurt pitcher for much of that stretch, you are likely going to pay more for Rodon because the higher peaks more than make up for the lower valleys.
…with the upshot being that…

Which is why, it would appear, Jordan Montgomery isn’t getting the kind of contract offers that were projected. He’s a good, but not great, pitcher in his early 30s. And a team making a $20M+ commitment over a lengthy stretch of time is going to want more upside than good, but not great, for that sort of long-term commitment. Yes, there’s less risk with Montgomery than with some of these other pitchers, and that has value. Just not enough as the potential upside of others offer.
Which is also why reports that Montgomery is not inclined to do a pillow contract, that he wants a long-term deal rather than a short-term deal with opt outs that would let him re-enter the market, make sense. After all, his best case scenario is that he goes out and repeats 2023 in 2024. And he’s now a year older, has a qualifying offer attached to him, and nothing will have changed in regards to how teams are evaluating him. All going that route does is risk a drop in performance, or an injury, that tanks his value next offseason.
 

cannonball 1729

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Does Montgomery have a track record of outperforming his xFIP/SIERRA?
Yes - at least xFIP. On average by about half a run each season (ish). At least depending on if one considers 2020 a real season or not (I do not, YMMV).

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/jordan-montgomery/16511/stats?position=P
FWIW, I was actually curious about the whole xFIP thing with Montgomery (the "thing" being that he's outperformed his peripherals the last three years). I looked through his stats to see if there was something that stood out in his batted ball stuff that indicated why he might have overperformed his peripherals.

(Dunno if this is helpful to anyone else, but I figured that since I found it, I might as well share it.)

The short answer, I suppose, is no.

The long answer is that the reason seems to change every year.

To wit: looking at how many balls allowed in play were soft/medium/hard contact, he had the following:

Year: S%/M%/H%
2021: 20.6% /48.0% /31.4%
2022: 15.1%/56.9%/28.0%
2023: 14.3%/53.5%/32.2%

AL averages:
2021: 16.3%/51.5%/32.1%
2022: 16.2%/53.6%/30.2%
2023: 15.5%/52%/32.5%

So in 2021, he had a whole lot more soft contact than the league. In 2022, he had more medium contact and less hard contact. In 2023....nothing stands out.

So what happened in 2023? Well here's HR/FB:

YEAR: Montgomery/AL Average
2021: 11.8% /13.8%
2022: 13%/11.4%
2023: 9.3%/12.5%

which may be related to where the balls were hit:

YEAR: Pull%/Center%/Oppo%
2021: 40.1%/37.2%/22.6%
2022: 38.7%/36.2%/25.1%
2023: 39.2%/33.1%/27.7%

AL avg:
2021: 40.2%/34.7%/25.1%
2022: 41.0%/34.4%/24.5%
2023: 40.1%/35.0%/24.9%

So a bunch more opposite field contact...in the year where the pull-side overshift was banned. Notably, flyballs hit to the opposite field are much less likely to go over the wall - just to pull some random data off of SB Nation's Crawfish Boxes from 2013:

78850

I have no idea if this is all sustainable or happy accident, but it at least gives some context to what was happening with Montgomery and his xFIP.
 

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May 18, 2021
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New Orleans, LA
This is a good piece, thanks for sharing.

This part’s pretty interesting…



…with the upshot being that…
Montgomery is, despite his recent consistency, a tough player to project. I’ve seen, and can square, both arguments: that he is likely to age well due to already having pitched well with middling stuff; and that he is likely to age poorly, due to having less velocity from which to subtract and therefore a steeper cliff.