I saw those clips over on lethal’s IG. Giancarlo is frighteningly unathletic. I hope it’s not the shoes.
Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top
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The way he can sidestep and score with 3-4 foot finger roll with either hand when the help defender sets up just outside the restricted area to draw the charge is beautiful.
He's perfecting that finger roll to make sure it goes in with a soft touch.
He had a nice role in Usual Suspects, Giancarlo didn't look anything like his Gus Fring character
He also has become MUCH better at shielding the ball when setting up those finishes. A big issue for Tatum in past years was getting the ball knocked away as he approached the basket. He obviously worked really hard to close that gap in his game around the rim.
It's not wrong. We've marveled at how strong he's gotten on drives to the rim and how he's gotten a reliable post game (I'd like some more pump fakes on those post fall-aways, I think that'd lead to a ton of easy trips to the free throw line, but we've got time), but he's still wasting a ton of possessions on what is usually low efficiency offense for him. And I get why he's trying it - not only does it conserve energy (not a small thing for a guy that's played more games and minutes than anyone else since coming into the league), but when Tatum is hitting those shots at a high rate (which he does for 1-2 month stretches every year), he's legitimately in the argument for best player in the league. If Tatum gets hot on these shots for an entire playoff run, Boston is 100% winning the title (unless we lose multiple guys to injury). The upside of these off the dribble step backs is both very high and extremely clear, since we've all seen him do it for large stretches.
We can win if he keeps doing what he's doing (taking a large amount of these shots with variable results), but I'm curious if we someday see a version of Tatum that leans more into drives to the rim, only taking 3 pointers on catch and shoot or when he's able to step into an open look (typically in transition or in a pick and roll when the opposing big goes into drop coverage).
Or a version of Tatum who locks Drew Hanlen in a cage and wheels him around to arenas across the country, letting him out only pre-game for shot mechanic fixes.
I’m still pushing that he’s been mostly good on the pull-ups this year, outside of a ghastly 10 game stretch.
Through 15 games, he shot 35% on them.
Over the next 10 games, he shot 18% on them. At one point, he was 8-49 over an 8 game stretch. I don’t need to explain how that’s incredibly fluky lol.
The last 22 games? He’s at 39% on pull-up threes, an elite number at his volume. So he has 37 games of being really good on them so far, and a horrid 10 game stretch. The form looks good, the mechanics have been much more consistent than last season, and he’s taking more of them in rhythm on PnR’s, and less in isolation, unless he’s cooking.
People forget that in last years playoffs, he was actually better on pull-ups than on C&S. If he’s hitting them at 35% or better, I want him taking a lot of them. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to buy that as a realistic number by the end of the season.
Through 15 games, he shot 35% on them.
Over the next 10 games, he shot 18% on them. At one point, he was 8-49 over an 8 game stretch. I don’t need to explain how that’s incredibly fluky lol.
The last 22 games? He’s at 39% on pull-up threes, an elite number at his volume. So he has 37 games of being really good on them so far, and a horrid 10 game stretch. The form looks good, the mechanics have been much more consistent than last season, and he’s taking more of them in rhythm on PnR’s, and less in isolation, unless he’s cooking.
People forget that in last years playoffs, he was actually better on pull-ups than on C&S. If he’s hitting them at 35% or better, I want him taking a lot of them. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to buy that as a realistic number by the end of the season.
I agree that it's an issue, but man those two know-it-all dorks with Timpf (especially the one on the lower-right) were offputting, especially the emphasis on Tatum sucking in Game 7 against Miami last year. Well, yeah, Wonder why.
Amazingly, per NBA shots dashboard, his best 3pt percentage besides C&S is after 3-6 dribbles at 37.5%.
But he is taking 2 per game at 7+ dribbles (31%) which to me is just bad regardless of how cold a streak it took to put him there. This should be a last-ish resort, not his 2nd most common 3pt shot after C&S situations.
He’s not James Harden, the extra dribbles don’t free his shooting hand and often lack any kind of real intentionality such as using the threat of the drive to keep the defender backed off. His release isn’t quick enough for it.
But he is taking 2 per game at 7+ dribbles (31%) which to me is just bad regardless of how cold a streak it took to put him there. This should be a last-ish resort, not his 2nd most common 3pt shot after C&S situations.
He’s not James Harden, the extra dribbles don’t free his shooting hand and often lack any kind of real intentionality such as using the threat of the drive to keep the defender backed off. His release isn’t quick enough for it.
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The pull up vs catch and shoot argument has some layers to it that both sides have yet to fully acknowledge.
You’ve point out that superstars in the NBA take those shots and we just have to live with it. I agree with that.
However, In an ideal world/basketball nirvana JT should unequivocally cut down on rose shots. They are low percentage and let the defense take a break.
The real argument is, even if Tatum is a superstar, do other superstars have the quality of teammates that Tatum does? To me, that’s a clear no. So, while I appreciate the Tatum has to take step backs and HAS to take end of game shots literally no matter what crowd, ideally he would stop,
But I also recognize that in todays NBA that’s extremely unlikely
Yeah when most of the general media talk about Tatum's playoff history, he's treated like his playoff resume is equivalent to Joel Embiid (one of underachieving failure). Tatum is 5-2 in game 7s, and those two losses are pretty damn understandable. His game 7 numbers are excellent (27/9/5 with a TS% of .608). He's lumped in with Embiid/Jokic/Giannis in terms of career timelines, and I do get why (it seemed like he burst onto the playoff scene at the same time as them), and since 2/3 of them have titles, people think something is wrong with Tatum. This completely ignores the fact that Tatum is 25 - 4 years younger than Embiid, and younger than both Giannis (26) and Jokic (27) when they won their titles. It's a cliche to note his age, but it has to always be mentioned because the media and general public's impression of players gets solidified when they've been on the big stage for a few years. The only player to win a title in the last 20 years at a younger age than Tatum who was also the best player on his team was Dwyane Wade. It was crazy to see what Colin Cowherd said a few weeks when comparing SGA (ascending) to Tatum (declining), without seeming to realize that they are both 25.
All that said, every player goes through this before they win a title (even the likes of Lebron/Jordan/Shaq). Even if the delivery is both smarmy and ignorant, these criticisms are ones that I hope Tatum and the team are thinking about.
I agree. And to be fair, smarmy and ignorant observations are my bread and butter.
100% agree
1. He's a much better C&S shooter, anyone who has watched him play will tell you that. Most players are & the Celtic team is.
2. Brad added better players (4 All-Star level teammates), yet he is hunting Pull-Ups even more this season
At the very least, JT needs to go back to last year's levels of PU/CS attempts.
2023-24 8.6 PUs/g with eFG% of 45.8 vs. 2.8 C&S/g with eFG% of 61.9
2022-23 6.8 PUs/g with eFG% of 40.4 vs. 4.6 C&S/g with eFG% of 59.5
The math gymnastics being done to excuse the uptick in PUs are impressive. BUT I'm not buying cherry-picked SSS noise.
Wyc needs to purchase Pure Sweat because Tatum's intentions are sub-optimal
Timpf has a point on Tatum's increased size/athleticism & his inefficient offensive approach.
The rest of it felt like anti-Celtic rhetoric
“Inefficient offensive approach” 27 a game on a 60% TS. Speaking of mental gymnastics.
You can not buy the “cherry picked” numbers all you want, but the fact is that he’s been really good on pull-up threes a majority of this season.
He’s going to keep taking them, so we will see whose right at the end of the season.
You can not buy the “cherry picked” numbers all you want, but the fact is that he’s been really good on pull-up threes a majority of this season.
He’s going to keep taking them, so we will see whose right at the end of the season.
27pts on 60% TS has everything to do with rim attacks & CS shots and very little to do with his Pull-Up jumpers
He was 29% on PU3s last season (74 games)
He is 33.2% on PU3s this season (46 games)
Throwing out 8-game blocks + taking away random games here and there is the very definition of cherry-picking.
How about we take out his best 8-game stretch of Pull Up jumpers and call that fluky?
For sure. We're talking about a "fatal flaw" for the best player on the best team in the league, a team and player that has made multiple deep playoff runs in recent years. If Tatum figures it out (either through improved shot selection or increased accuracy on his jumpshots), the Celtics are overwhelming favorites to win it all. If he doesn't...they're still favored to come out of the east, at minimum. If Tatum figures this out, he'll have no flaws. There's no player in the league that can say that.
But you can’t just remove the pull up part of his game and assume that rim attacks would be as efficient.
If he completely dropped this part of his game, he’d be defended like Giannis. As strong as he is, he’s not Giannis, and his efficiency driving would suffer. The threat of shooting is foundational to his effectiveness as a driver.
Literally, nobody has said he should "remove the Pull-Up part of his game"
below is from 6 posts above
no one is saying Tatum's not playing well, you might phrase the argument in the words of the late great Carl weathers, "there's still meat on that bone"
I mean their point seems to be “Tatum sucks when he’s injured!” Well, yeah. Most shooters with shoulder injuries shoot badly. As they do when they’re playing on sprained ankles.
A bit of pushback here: he's clearly been focusing the last couple weeks on driving in some of those situations (late shot-clock, looks like he's pulling up for 3), and it's had very good results. His pull-up does create the threat of a drive imo; he just hadn't been using it enough, and wasn't comfortable enough doing it with < 8 on the shot clock.
This!! If he dropped that part of his game after the offensive set breaks down and his man locks him up we’d have Jrue or someone throwing up fallaway 30-footers against the shot clock. I forgot who posted a possession of a Tatum baseline fallaway a couple weeks ago that I broke down and still people were pointing at a better option when one clearly was not there. Realize that the off the dribble pull up is not often by design…but a function of the defense doing its job and the shot clock in single digits with the ball in Tatum’s hands.
The comparison of Tatum’s different type of 3-pt shot percentages is flawed….extremely flawed (it’s actually irrelevant since it isn’t a choice of one or the other for him but I’ll be generous). The truer comparison should be Tatum’s off the dribble 3’s against resetting the offense against a set defense with the shot clock in single digits with others involved in PNR or iso which are the only options once he takes the ball out of his hand so late in the shot clock.
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Driving consistently also beats the shit out of you, especially as a bigger guy. Because teams can’t stop him at the rim, they beat the fuck out of him. Considering he’s had wrist/hand stuff for years, I don’t want him doing that more during the regular season, when him taking extra pull-ups has cost us what exactly? This is the time of year when you work on things, especially as a finals contender.
I’ve pointed out numerous times that Tatum drives much more in the playoffs, so I don’t see why it matters. Guys take the shots that they’re going to take, it’s why I want Jaylen to keep taking C&S threes even though he’s 34% on them the last three seasons, and sub 35% again this year.
I’ve always cared more about what kind of pull-ups he takes, as opposed to how many. He’s cut a lot of the crap ones out, which is why he’s looked so much better with them.
I’ve pointed out numerous times that Tatum drives much more in the playoffs, so I don’t see why it matters. Guys take the shots that they’re going to take, it’s why I want Jaylen to keep taking C&S threes even though he’s 34% on them the last three seasons, and sub 35% again this year.
I’ve always cared more about what kind of pull-ups he takes, as opposed to how many. He’s cut a lot of the crap ones out, which is why he’s looked so much better with them.
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This. While he's put on plenty of muscle mass over the years, he's not a 25 year old LeBron that can take the hits driving consistently during the RS.
He's working on his game. His team has the luxury of that while currently holding HC for the playoffs.
but nobody said THIS!!
Tatum is taking more inefficient shots compared to last season with much better offensive teammates around him.
It's almost like his TS% is down while his eFG%, FG% & 3P% are higher this season for no reason at all.
I know we're breaking the 11th commandment here, Thou shalt not question our sacred Tatum
BUT all we are talking about is JT taking 2 more Catch & Shoot 3s which he hits at a 44% rate.
Don't worry we all love him and want him to get his POINTZ
It's a small adjustment back to last season's more balanced approach.
At the end of the day, it's just a thing to keep a casual eye on as the season progresses.
I expect he'll adjust back to last season's ratio of PUs vs C&S shots.
BUT I'll put you down as wanting the increased number of Pull-Up jumpers from JT this season.
Last season was the only year since being a focal point where’s he’s taken more than 3.3 C&S threes a game, it was clearly an outlier.
Teams have been selling out all season to take away his threes off the catch, been clear as day. Maybe Joe can find a way to scheme up another extra 1 or 2 a game, but most of his C&S threes are off of defensive miscommunication, and that’s not something you can bank on.
Also, the TS thing is strictly about the FT’s. If he was hitting as many as last season, his TS would be a full percentage point higher than last season. That’s directly tied to the driving less, which has just been replaced with more post ups.
Teams have been selling out all season to take away his threes off the catch, been clear as day. Maybe Joe can find a way to scheme up another extra 1 or 2 a game, but most of his C&S threes are off of defensive miscommunication, and that’s not something you can bank on.
Also, the TS thing is strictly about the FT’s. If he was hitting as many as last season, his TS would be a full percentage point higher than last season. That’s directly tied to the driving less, which has just been replaced with more post ups.
Can we agree that last season was Tatum's most efficient and best offensive season?
The floor is much more spread this season without TL & Smart. It's not even close. When the defense sells out to stop C&S 3s, which is great for Boston, there is massive room to drive/attack the rim with pump fakes.
As far as the shot clock is concerned (HRB issue), Tatum is taking 80% of his 3s with over 7 seconds left, which is an eternity in the half-court.
Yeah I explained why I don’t care about his drives being down. He’s replaced them with posts ups, and been one of the best in the league at them. As far as massive room? Not in Tatum’s case, defenses 100% sell out to stop him and force the ball into anyone else’s hands.
As for passing more, his potential assists are right where they’ve been the last two seasons, while his usage is down a lot.
Like I’ve said a bunch, he always drives more in the playoffs. So why should I care about them being down a bit this regular season? Why is it even a talking point?
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I think it’s pretty debatable.
This has been his best season going ISO, his best season posting up, his best season in transition, and he’s better than last season as the PnR ball handler. It’s the best eFG of his career, and the best he’s shot from three since 20-21, while his pull-up three is up 4% from last season. He also has the best assist/TO of his career. This is all playoff juice for when those games start.
They just haven’t asked him to do as much on that end.
Btw one of the things I like most about this board is that you can debate, and it pretty much always stays respectful.
That’s rare, and something I really appreciate.
That’s rare, and something I really appreciate.
Look I was by far the loudest nitwit 3 years ago claiming Tatum would be a TOP3 NBA player by this time.
I was wrong.
BUT @Euclis20 makes a good point
So if he gets better at Pull-Up jumpers great BUT believe the path to Tatum TOP3 is shot selection & leaning on his teammates more.
Looking back at the post from weeks ago, it was you, the result was going to be the ball in Hauser’s hands, 25 feet from the basket, with the clock inside of :07 and a defender who just rotated into position closely defending him. The result I hinted at was the far and away most likely outcome on this possession we debated.
The off the dribble pull ups appear to be mostly with the clock in single digits after the defense has defended our motion. I could not be any more adamant that a perimeter possession in single digits after the halfcourt set breaks down is NOT remotely close to an eternity IF Tatum, or your iso scorer in this set, decides to pass the ball which not only removes valuable seconds off the clock but puts a worst iso player in a non-scoring position with the ball against the clock.
I agree, although he's done a really good job lately of attacking the rim himself around 7 seconds on the shot clock. It works because the defense thinks the pullup is coming, and he's been able to generate good rim looks and late passes out of it.
I agree though that it's a full package, and that he needs to take the pullup sometimes in that spot to balance it all out (not to mention that it will be more open if teams know he is still willing to drive with a low shot clock).
THIS!! was about an inaccurate post that @ManicCompression was kind enough to correct due to hard to read phone screen
One play from 2 weeks ago? I have to jar my memory
Regarding that play, depending on where the defense rotates, I believe there was a
-open 3 from Hauser or
-open 3 from PP or
-cutting Jrue or
-JT could have bullied Reggie Jackson & attacked the rim
ALL those were viable, better options than a JT midrange fadeaway against Reggie with 5 or 7 seconds left (can't remember the exact time).
The majority of his Pull-Up 3s happen after he goes into ISO-mode (3 dribbles & even more of those are 7 dribbles). He is the one burning clock, but again the vast majority of his 3s happen with plenty of shot clock.
Just to restate my stance, Tatum will start to balance out his PU/CS ratios trending towards last year's levels with an increase in post-ups within 10', an increase in ASST%, + an increase in TS% going forward.
I understand it was one play but that one play is a microcosm about what people aren’t understanding about how difficult it is to get off a shot against a set halfcourt defense against the clock. I pointed out precisely why none of those shots you claimed were open, Hauser was the only viable pass for Tatum to make, we’re not only not open shots but unlikely to even get one off by those players.
We are super lucky to have these guys. Across the board great team, led by JT.
Everybody knows by now that Tatum has been amongst the best in the league in isolation and post ups this year. Here’s where he stands when running PnR, including passing. Courtesy of synergy.
Is Tatum the biggest player on that list? It's (unsurprisingly) mostly guards. Going off memory, maybe Ingram has an inch on him.
Tatum is the tallest guy on this list (Ingram is close, but they are both listed at 6'8 and we know tatum has grown another inch since), but Harden, Luka and maybe Edwards are all heavier.