No Town Hall this year at Red Sox Winter Weekend

DeJesus Built My Hotrod · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
Why? That's crazy talk to me. The guy brought me some of the most incredible joy I'll ever experience. Then he did it three more times. It's called gratitude.

It does not mean I'm happy with the way things stand today. It does not mean the rope is endless.

20 years. 20 years ago today we were still in an 85 year drought.

I'm not sure if it will work or not, but I think Breslow deserves a chance to actually do something before declaring the end of an empire.

I completely agree with you that we should have nothing but gratitude for the joy this ownership group has provided to Red Sox fans over the past two decades. I also don't begrudge them to do whatever they please with the asset they own. Furthermore, if their strategy is to generate income versus spending to field a *potentially* more competitive team, who can logically argue against that path?

That said, while fans don't deserve anything, it probably serves each of us to figure out what the plan is. And if the plan is to wait until the exact right moment to take risks on players and contracts maybe we shouldn't be investing so much time in this club at present. Or maybe its time for FSG to explore a sale of the Red Sox.

Speaking only for myself, I would prefer to watch the best players try to win versus reclamation projects etc. I like when the Red Sox compete for championships and I don't care if they buy their way there. Maybe its time for an ownership group who isn't afraid to take big risks to win another title or maybe there is simply no way for the Red Sox, with Fenway's constraints and the size of their market, to compete with Dodgers and Mets of the world. We ought to consider what that means too (e.g. Casas in NY or LA after when he its FA etc).

NickEsasky · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
That's a steaming pile of bullshit, and this is not a game thread. If you can't bring better, don't bring anything.

He’s not wrong. This thread is full of comments calling other posters mouth breathers and non critical thinkers amongst other terms. And I appreciate the irony of RR, a poster who has to be reminded constantly to stop being a condescending a-hole to everyone here, worrying about how people are being treated at a town hall.

Rovin Romine · Jan 10, 2024

Auger34 said:
…..how should sycophant be used? I’m not an English professor but that looked like the correct usage to me

Tom is suggesting that someone on the site is disingenuously sucking up to John Henry in the hopes that Henry will directly reward that person.

So he's either not using the right word or is paranoid. Or perhaps thinks Henry is breathlessly clicking over everyone's posts here. . .which might go some way to explaining Tom's behavior.

You should probably ask him when he untangles himself from his Rowling metaphors.

grepal · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
No doubt it's a really bad look. Someone posted this news in the rumors thread yesterday but it got lost.

I guess they feel another round of angry intoxicated fans bulldozing their presentation would be a worse look. Not saying I agree, but it makes sense that that's probably the calculus here. They decided to to take this hit now instead of risking much worse optics at MGM. Again, not endorsing, but it's understandable.

I don't take it as a sign moves won't be made before then, just that even if they are, there would be people looking to turn it into a shit show just for kicks. Tough spot they put themselves in.

I think most fans would be fair. If the team is not looking better on paper compared to last season booing and/or derisive chants are fair. If they really improve the club the booers will look like petulant children.

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

NickEsasky said:
He’s not wrong. This thread is full of comments calling other posters mouth breathers and non critical thinkers amongst other terms. And I appreciate the irony of RR, a poster who has to be reminded constantly to stop being a condescending a-hole to everyone here, worrying about how people are being treated at a town hall.

No one called another poster a mouthbreather, it was used to describe the disruptive assholes that wrecked the Town Hall last year. And Quite frankly, what's wrong with promoting critical thinking? Do you think the post you were referring to showed any?

soxhop411 · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
The people who made the biggest disruption last year were a bunch of drunken shit stirrers, so mouthbreathers is colorful but accurate. I assure you they in particular had nothing to do with Henry becoming a billionaire. RR can speak for himself, but he's not fan policing here. .

Of course not, just that it seems they believe that it would provide worse optics if they did it than by calling it off.

It feels like (IMO) those "fans" (again using fans loosely for those shit stirrers), at the event last year ruined it for everyone, as if last year was any indication, this year would have been a total shitshow..

Rovin Romine · Jan 10, 2024

gibreel said:
This kind of elitism would pack more of a punch if it were backed up by exceptional prognostication abilities. But it’s almost certainly the case that if you’d surveyed a random set of people whose accents you make fun of, and compared their mean predicted win total for 2023 to this board’s (not to mention yours), the former would almost certainly have been more accurate.

This has nothing to do with the tendency of people to engage in bias confirmation, or post ahead of facts coming in.

And how would anyone know what any poster's accent is?

NickEsasky · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
No one called another poster a mouthbreather, it was used to describe the disruptive assholes that wrecked the Town Hall last year. And Quite frankly, what's wrong with promoting critical thinking? Do you think the post you were referring to showed any?

In this case yes, but there’s been plenty of terms thrown at posters here as well. And there’s nothing wrong with promoting critical thinking here but it needs to be a two-way street. Ignoring flaws of the team and constantly moving goalposts isnt critical thinking either.

John Marzano Olympic Hero · Jan 10, 2024

I’m sorry but the idea that we “owe” John Henry anything is something I don’t agree with. Henry didn’t win the World Series because it was an act of charity or civic duty. He felt that spending money to win a championship would be good for his investment.

And it was. He spent $380m on the team and now it’s worth (estimated) $2.0b. This is why he’s updated the park. This is why he thought it was a good idea to field a competitive team.

I’ve paid John Henry back in the tickets I’ve bought to countless games, hot dogs, nachos, beer (oh so much beer), caps, t-shirts, real jerseys, sweatshirts, tons of shit. Not to mention the amount of time that I’ve spent watching the team.

This is all stuff that I want to do because I love baseball and I love the Red Sox, but I could have easily spent my money and free time on other things.

And while Henry gets credit for owning the team through four championships, what about finishing in last place six times and an epic choke job in 2011? That’s part of his CV too.

All-in-all Henry is pretty much a typical owner who has decided to make as much money as he can and take his foot off the gas pedal in the last few years. And, cool, that’s fine. It’s his money and maybe he doesn’t like paying multiple ball players what they’re worth any more. He wouldn’t be the first owner to do that.

But to say that he can’t or shouldn’t be criticized? Or shouldn’t have to face the fans? Stop it. What are you worried about that Henry will sell the club? That he’ll think we’re morons ( honestly he probably already thinks this)?

Henry hasn’t spoken to the press in years. Since the 2018 season, he’s been a whisper. And frankly that’s weakass horseshit. John Henry owns the Sox and he should be able to face the crowd and explain to them, or at the very least Alex Speier, where he sees the club heading.

John Henry—and all owners really—just want silent lemmings with wallets. Be grateful, shut up, pay me and watch whatever I put on the field.

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

NickEsasky said:
In this case yes, but there’s been plenty of terms thrown at posters here as well. And there’s nothing wrong with promoting critical thinking here but it needs to be a two-way street. Ignoring flaws of the team and constantly moving goalposts isnt critical thinking either.

Sorry, I don't agree. It was a sweeping generalization, made even more obvious by following a post I spent time supporting.

Show me examples of ignoring flaws, and show me one point I have made that I don't support with critical thinking. I at least give a reason for the way I feel, and explain my reasoning. You're free to disagree and call me out, but I don't drop absolute statements, proclaim my opinion is the only correct one, or expect agreement. I'm just trying to argue how I feel in good faith.

One line frustration laden rants add nothing, no matter the subject of the argument.

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
But to say that he can’t or shouldn’t be criticized?

Again, I've said more than once that I get the anger, just not the level of it. And I would never say that he shouldn't be criticized. I haven't seen a lot of other people say it either.

I have plenty of criticism of my own, just apparently more patience and a different view on the possibilities for the future than some people. It's fine from where I sit that that's the case, I'm not mad at anyone for their vehement disagreement with my takes.

Just back up that disagreement with more than stuff like saying people cut Henry slack because they think they're better fans. I actually explicitly said otherwise when I stated my position.

@NickEsasky is one of the old guard I have a lot of admiration for, not sure why we're all fighting here.

Rovin Romine · Jan 10, 2024

NickEsasky said:
In this case yes, but there’s been plenty of terms thrown at posters here as well. And there’s nothing wrong with promoting critical thinking here but it needs to be a two-way street. Ignoring flaws of the team and constantly moving goalposts isnt critical thinking either.

If you have something specific you want to bring up, please do. What goal posts have I (or anyone else) moved?

I can say generally, if I do that, call me on it.

NickEsasky · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
Sorry, I don't agree. It was a sweeping generalization, made even more obvious by following a post I spent time supporting.

Show me examples of ignoring flaws, and show me one point I have made that I don't support with critical thinking. I at least give a reason for the way I feel, and explain my reasoning. You're free to disagree and call me out, but I don't drop absolute statements, proclaim my opinion is the only correct one, or expect agreement. I'm just trying to argue how I feel in good faith.

One line frustration laden rants add nothing, no matter the subject of the argument.

None of my criticism was of you. I don’t even blame you for your response I just used it as a jumping off point to state that I agreed with some of the points the post made.

I’ve been here for over 20 years and still have less posts than some members make in a year mainly because I am not a huge math and spreadsheets guy. So I always felt if I didn’t have anything to bring to the table I’d just read and learn stay mostly quiet.

But lately I’ve felt the need to post more because of how the board has been since probably 2022 when Bloom largely split the board in half. I was largely agnostic about Bloom but it became clear to me that the plan didn’t seem to be taking us back to the promised land and I’m generally skeptical about prospects having seen so many fail.

And while I admit there’s a lot of ranting here which isn’t particularly helpful there’s a flip side to it that really doesn’t feel much different in terms of quality of posting but because it’s pro-red Sox it’s more accepted. And that’s why I felt the need to post more recently. But honestly it doesn’t seem worth it. Probably best to just go back to being more of a lurker on the main board and leave the board to the rah rah folks.

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

NickEsasky said:
None of my criticism was of you. I don’t even blame you for your response I just used it as a jumping off point to state that I agreed with some of the points the post made.

I’ve been here for over 20 years and still have less posts than some members make in a year mainly because I am not a huge math and spreadsheets guy. So I always felt if I didn’t have anything to bring to the table I’d just read and learn stay mostly quiet.

But lately I’ve felt the need to post more because of how the board has been since probably 2022 when Bloom largely split the board in half. I was largely agnostic about Bloom but it became clear to me that the plan didn’t seem to be taking us back to the promised land and I’m generally skeptical about prospects having seen so many fail.

And while I admit there’s a lot of ranting here which isn’t particularly helpful there’s a flip side to it that really doesn’t feel much different in terms of quality of posting but because it’s pro-red Sox it’s more accepted. And that’s why I felt the need to post more recently. But honestly it doesn’t seem worth it. Probably best to just go back to being more of a lurker on the main board and leave the board to the rah rah folks.

Jesus, Nick, don't do that. You are one of my favorites from the old days, one of the reasons I'm posting again is the same as yours was, I see way too much of what you see too. From all kinds of angles. The point I'm trying to make is that I think we as a group can vehemently disagree without (as members of this place) calling each other's character to the carpet.

NickEsasky · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
The point I'm trying to make is that I think we as a group can vehemently disagree without (as members of this place) calling each other's character to the carpet.

I agree with this. The board just feels too polarized now. And while I haven’t been perfect in how I’ve interacted with everyone here lately I will say two things:

1. I’ve never been here to troll anyone. I may poke a little fun at times but it’s never mean spirited.
2. I have always been able to admit it when proven wrong or at least acknowledge there’s probably some gray area and give up some ground.

I feel like we don’t see a lot of #2 lately.

Auger34 · Jan 10, 2024

NickEsasky said:
And while I admit there’s a lot of ranting here which isn’t particularly helpful there’s a flip side to it that really doesn’t feel much different in terms of quality of posting but because it’s pro-red Sox it’s more accepted. And that’s why I felt the need to post more recently. But honestly it doesn’t seem worth it. Probably best to just go back to being more of a lurker on the main board and leave the board to the rah rah folks.

We’ve messaged about this but I have to agree. I don’t post on the main board a ton (Im no longer a massive baseball fan and it does seem like homework to post any sort of opinion sometime) but I do lurk and I agree with what you say.

I was agnostic on Bloom, I am pretty agnostic on FSG. Theyve brought me immense joy but they’ve also been sort of asleep at the wheel recently while scapegoating others….but there’s a certain swath of posters that make it hard to remain agnostic

EDIT: I just saw your post above and 1000000%. If I am wrong, I say I’m wrong. I do it all of the time on the Port Cellar….I am not sure that it’s that widespread here

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

NickEsasky said:
I feel like we don’t see a lot of #2 lately.

As I said, we see (or don't see, as the case may be) a bunch of the same things. And you're one of the funniest dudes here, number one never even crossed my mind.

NickEsasky · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
And you're one of the funniest dudes here, number one never even crossed my mind.

Now I’m starting to think you have me confused with someone else. Maybe NickEsasky7.

Sille Skrub · Jan 10, 2024

HfxBob said:
The Red Sox have become a PR disaster. They can't seem to do anything right in that area any more.

Absolute disaster.

This is a chicken shit move. I get that it’s Henry’s team and it’s completely his right to check out and just use the Sox as an ATM.

However, the ownership group would be well-served to get someone who knows what they are doing to run PR. Take some accountability for all the recent last place finishes, share what the plan is for 2024 (or at least the framework). If it’s another bridge year to the young kids coming up in 2025, so be it. I’d respect them more if they came out and said it. Don’t be throwing around phrases like “full throttle” and then lay a huge egg in the off-season. Don’t charge caviar prices for a cold cut product.

I know to some of you, FSG has carte blanche and can do no wrong, and that’s your right. I’m thankful for the 4 titles, but feel like since the Mookie trade that the priorities have changed and winning another championship is not one of them.

It really sucks because for the first time in a long time, baseball is fun to watch again. I love the improvements they have made to speed up the games. I just wish the team I root for was in contention after August 1st.

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

NickEsasky said:
Now I’m starting to think you have me confused with someone else. Maybe NickEsasky7.

Nope!

YTF · Jan 10, 2024

NickEsasky said:
None of my criticism was of you. I don’t even blame you for your response I just used it as a jumping off point to state that I agreed with some of the points the post made.

I’ve been here for over 20 years and still have less posts than some members make in a year mainly because I am not a huge math and spreadsheets guy. So I always felt if I didn’t have anything to bring to the table I’d just read and learn stay mostly quiet.

But lately I’ve felt the need to post more because of how the board has been since probably 2022 when Bloom largely split the board in half. I was largely agnostic about Bloom but it became clear to me that the plan didn’t seem to be taking us back to the promised land and I’m generally skeptical about prospects having seen so many fail.

And while I admit there’s a lot of ranting here which isn’t particularly helpful there’s a flip side to it that really doesn’t feel much different in terms of quality of posting but because it’s pro-red Sox it’s more accepted. And that’s why I felt the need to post more recently. But honestly it doesn’t seem worth it. Probably best to just go back to being more of a lurker on the main board and leave the board to the rah rah folks.

This isn't a Bloom split the board in half thing. This is this board reflecting the country we live in. Pick a side because there is no middle ground. You're either fer us or agin us. Disagree with me, I'll shout you down. More and more the difference of opinion somehow sparks outrage or offense. It's who we are, it's what we've become.

astrozombie · Jan 10, 2024

Sille Skrub said:
Absolute disaster.

This is a chicken shit move. I get that it’s Henry’s team and it’s completely his right to check out and just use the Sox as an ATM.

However, the ownership group would be well-served to get someone who knows what they are doing to run PR. Take some accountability for all the recent last place finishes, share what the plan is for 2024 (or at least the framework). If it’s another bridge year to the young kids coming up in 2025, so be it. I’d respect them more if they came out and said it. Don’t be throwing around phrases like “full throttle” and then lay a huge egg in the off-season. Don’t charge caviar prices for a cold cut product.

I know to some of you, FSG has carte blanche and can do no wrong, and that’s your right. I’m thankful for the 4 titles, but feel like since the Mookie trade that the priorities have changed and winning another championship is not one of them.

It really sucks because for the first time in a long time, baseball is fun to watch again. I love the improvements they have made to speed up the games. I just wish the team I root for was in contention after August 1st.

Get out of my brain.

joe dokes · Jan 10, 2024

How did this get from "maybe they cancelled this year becauae a bunch of people acted like assholes last year" (this year is a debatable point; last year actually did happen) to posters thinking *they've* been called asshole?

Yes, the owners should be harshly criticized for a sucky team.

But neither they nor anyone else should bother having or attending an event that is likely (or might be, or definitely will be, YMMV) to be hijacked by the type of people who acted out last year.
Does anyone seriously dispute that point?

donutogre · Jan 10, 2024

YTF said:
This isn't a Bloom split the board in half thing. This is this board reflecting the country we live in. Pick a side because there is no middle ground. You're either fer us or agin us. Disagree with me, I'll shout you down. More and more the difference of opinion somehow sparks outrage or offense. It's who we are, it's what we've become.

You're not wrong entirely, but I want to vehemently disagree with this because there's a huge difference about not lining up about the direction of the Red Sox and not lining up about insurrection attempts. But I don't want to go V&N on this.

EDIT: Never mind, I don't want to imply literally anything about this line of thinking. Just feeling a little hot at the moment. Sorry for going in this direction.

NickEsasky · Jan 10, 2024

YTF said:
This isn't a Bloom split the board in half thing. This is this board reflecting the country we live in. Pick a side because there is no middle ground. You're either fer us or agin us. Disagree with me, I'll shout you down. More and more the difference of opinion somehow sparks outrage or offense. It's who we are, it's what we've become.

I agree that it’s reflective of society right now I just meant that pro or anti Bloom seemed to be the divider.

Also I just realized since you quoted it that I said less rather than fewer and now I want to Stannis myself.

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

donutogre said:
You're not wrong entirely, but I want to vehemently disagree with this because there's a huge difference about not lining up about the direction of the Red Sox and not lining up about insurrection attempts. But I don't want to go V&N on this.

Please guys, end that line of discussion here and take it to V&N. It could be interesting, but not here. Never here. Never ever. Edict from the top. Only warning.

Clarification: Discussing why discourse may be worse today is not verboten here, but bringing up anything that is politically based such as what was mentioned in the quote above crosses the line. It's a fine line, which is why it's probably better to do the whole thing in V&N if we're going to do it.

TomRicardo · Jan 10, 2024

NickEsasky said:
I agree with this. The board just feels too polarized now. And while I haven’t been perfect in how I’ve interacted with everyone here lately I will say two things:

1. I’ve never been here to troll anyone. I may poke a little fun at times but it’s never mean spirited.
2. I have always been able to admit it when proven wrong or at least acknowledge there’s probably some gray area and give up some ground.

I feel like we don’t see a lot of #2 lately.

Then why did I have to pay you that toll to cross that bridge?

sittingstill · Jan 10, 2024

I'm not sure how many folks posting here have been to Winter Weekend. I went every year at Foxwoods but stopped last year when they moved to MGM because part of the appeal for me was staying on site at Foxwoods and basically not even taking my coat out of the car in January. I enjoyed the Town Halls but I'm not sure "accountability" was a word that would have crossed my mind. To me it was just a joy to be surrounded by baseball and other Sox fans when spring training was still a month out. Sightings of players all around Foxwoods. The insanity of seeing who was at the front of my assigned autograph line and actually thinking "Aw, man, Pedro again?" (Three times!) It's a very family friendly event--not just the autographs and photos with players but batting cages, baserunning games, Wally and Tessie, etc. It's a first chance for a lot of folks to buy tickets (kind of replacing Christmas at Fenway or whatever they called it). They have a player game show competition, and a kids press conference where kids get to ask questions. The Town Hall just felt like an anchor event so they had something for the folks who came Friday before everything got rolling Saturday, and something to put on NESN (it was clear to the in-person audience that it was being recorded, complete with the same we're-coming-back-from-commercial-APPLAUD!! routines you get if you see a late night talk show taped). I totally understand frustration with the front office and feeling that they're ducking an opportunity for criticism here--but I also feel like a Papelbon talk show is completely in line with the general feeling of the event.

mannydelcarwreck · Jan 10, 2024

It’s all a very complicated mess, the game/business has changed since the early years. Thru Theo, Dombrowski, then Bloom, some bad contracts along the way.

I am torn, logically I get both sides. I have a hard time with ownership charging a premium in what is feeling like a perpetual rebuild. That is my biggest bitch.

I am hopeful we can still pull in some talent this offseason to get us to meaningful baseball later into the season without mortgaging the youngsters.

NickEsasky · Jan 10, 2024

TomRicardo said:
Then why did I have to pay you that toll to cross that bridge?

The Nightman demands it.

YTF · Jan 10, 2024

donutogre said:
You're not wrong entirely, but I want to vehemently disagree with this because there's a huge difference about not lining up about the direction of the Red Sox and not lining up about insurrection attempts. But I don't want to go V&N on this.

EDIT: Never mind, I don't want to imply literally anything about this line of thinking. Just feeling a little hot at the moment. Sorry for going in this direction.

Just to be clear my post wasn't about anything in particular, yet everything in general. This used to be a place to escape so many of life's difficulties, but it's become less so.

TomRicardo · Jan 10, 2024

NickEsasky said:
The Nightman demands it.

Dammit I wanted to go with Boy's Soul.

donutogre · Jan 10, 2024

YTF said:
Just to be clear my post wasn't about anything in particular, yet everything in general. This used to be a place to escape so many of life's difficulties, but it's become less so.

I feel ya, and sorry again to you and @CR67dream for the digression.

cornwalls@6 · Jan 10, 2024

It’s kind of weak sauce canceling the thing because a few fans were, verbally, big meanies to them last year. But honestly, I couldn’t care less if they ever do stuff like this. Put a competitive, interesting product on the field again. Soon. That’s all the outreach I need.

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

Sille Skrub said:
I know to some of you, FSG has carte blanche and can do no wrong,

There are some who feel that way, but it seems like more of an argument now mostly between the "I'm nervous and unsure but I'll wait and see" contingent and the "Why bother, their fate is sealed" contingent, with the former being labeled by some of the the latter as FSG fanboys. And lately it sure seems there are a lot more posters claiming that FSG can do no right than vice versa. And it's all so much noise.

I really just think we can and should be more nuanced than that, wherever we stand, whatever we debate. Throwing around labels and jabs just inhibits constructive dialogue.

John Marzano Olympic Hero · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
Again, I've said more than once that I get the anger, just not the level of it. And I would never say that he shouldn't be criticized. I haven't seen a lot of other people say it either.

I have plenty of criticism of my own, just apparently more patience and a different view on the possibilities for the future than some people. It's fine from where I sit that that's the case, I'm not mad at anyone for their vehement disagreement with my takes. Just back up that disagreement with more than stuff like saying people cut Henry slack because they think they're better fans. I actually explicitly said otherwise when I stated my position.

I think you might be mistaking anger for frustration. I’m not angry at John Henry, I’ve read enough baseball history to realize that this is what owners do.

What’s most frustrating is that at one point the Red Sox sat at the cool table with the rich kids. Now they don’t and I’m not sure anyone knows why. I don’t expect John Henry to come out and admit exactly why the Sox have pulled back but it would be nice if he gave some sort of idea where this was going.

What in the last few years has made Henry and by extension the Red Sox acting like John Henry and the Red Sox?

In the last few months, I’ve come to the conclusion that the Red Sox are what they are now and I’m trying to figure out the best way to watch the team. It’s not as easy as it used to be, I grew accustomed to watching stars. Rooting for a team that had a deep 1-9 lineup and always had an ace.

Things aren’t like that any more and it’s going to take time for everyone to come around to this new reality. But not only is that frustrating, it’s also frustrating that despite a seemingly very healthy franchise, the money spigot just stopped.

I think that you’re seeing a combination of confusion, frustration and growing pains. Sometimes that looks like anger, and maybe it is, but I don’t think it’s “let’s tear Fenway the fuck down” anger, it’s more like “you’re charging us $15 for a Bud Light and you’re making us watch this shit” annoyance.

pk1627 · Jan 10, 2024

This sucks. Tom Yawkey addressed the fans at Winter Weekend every year. (He also addressed Jackie Robinson when he worked out at Fenway). Henry is no Yawkey.

joe dokes · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
I'm nervous and unsure but I'll wait and see" contingent and the "Why bother, their fate is sealed" contingent, with the former being labeled by some of the the latter as FSG fanboys.

This seems accurate.

Salem's Lot · Jan 10, 2024

John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
I think you might be mistaking anger for frustration. I’m not angry at John Henry, I’ve read enough baseball history to realize that this is what owners do.

What’s most frustrating is that at one point the Red Sox sat at the cool table with the rich kids. Now they don’t and I’m not sure anyone knows why. I don’t expect John Henry to come out and admit exactly why the Sox have pulled back but it would be nice if he gave some sort of idea where this was going.

What in the last few years has made Henry and by extension the Red Sox acting like John Henry and the Red Sox?

In the last few months, I’ve come to the conclusion that the Red Sox are what they are now and I’m trying to figure out the best way to watch the team. It’s not as easy as it used to be, I grew accustomed to watching stars. Rooting for a team that had a deep 1-9 lineup and always had an ace.

Things aren’t like that any more and it’s going to take time for everyone to come around to this new reality. But not only is that frustrating, it’s also frustrating that despite a seemingly very healthy franchise, the money spigot just stopped.

I think that you’re seeing a combination of confusion, frustration and growing pains. Sometimes that looks like anger, and maybe it is, but I don’t think it’s “let’s tear Fenway the fuck down” anger, it’s more like “you’re charging us $15 for a Bud Light and you’re making us watch this shit” annoyance.

I think it’s as simple as 10 years ago, John Henry had Larry Lucchino, who, love him or hate him, was at his core a competitive SOB, and a group of limited partners that had no problem putting the heat on Henry & Warner if they team wasn’t winning. Now they have a stuffed suit in Sam Kennedy leading the way, and limited partners like Redbird Capital that are only sending angry emails if the end of the quarter dividend sheet looks a little light.

John Marzano Olympic Hero · Jan 10, 2024

Salem's Lot said:
I think it’s as simple as 10 years ago, John Henry had Larry Lucchino, who, love him or hate him, was at his core a competitive SOB, and a group of limited partners that had no problem putting the heat on Henry & Warner if they team wasn’t winning. Now they have a stuffed suit in Sam Kennedy leading the way, and limited partners like Redbird Capital that are only sending angry emails if the end of the quarter dividend sheet looks a little light.

I never thought of the Lucchino thing but I have a feeling you’re right. He seemed to like winning more than money.

NickEsasky · Jan 10, 2024

I think the wait and see approach is completely valid and fine. I also think people reacting in the moment when FA signs elsewhere (as long at it’s not a “they suck” rant) is also valid and fine.

Where I get frustrated is that there doesn’t seem to be a single free agent that a large chunk of the board deems valuable enough to sign. Every single pitcher is seemingly dismissed and not worth the money or years. I feel like they’re looking for a unicorn that doesn’t exist. Free agents have flaws. It’s a less efficient way to acquire players for sure. But if you don’t have the talent in your own organization you have to be able to either trade for it or buy it. And if you’re looking to keep a pipeline of what you have already, you probably should buy it. Snell, Montgomery, or whoever might not get you a WS next year, but they’ll help. They’ll likely still help in year 2 and 3 when your own pipeline fills some gaps. Then maybe you are a WS contender. But in the meantime your team is better and more entertaining to watch. And maybe the tail end of the deal causes a little pain but I don’t buy that it has to be crippling to a franchise like the Red Sox.

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
I think you might be mistaking anger for frustration.

Not quite, but you're on the right track. I think frustration is what triggers the anger, but I think there are a lot of folks who are legit pissed off, and they have a right to be. It's the voracity of a lot of it that really surprises me.The fact that I have a hard time wrapping my head around it is not a judgement. It makes me sad more than anything.

I've been told a couple of times tonight (paraphrasing) that it is unbelievable that Henry has anyone that supports him and can't see how bad he is, and that saying anything positive about him now is ridiculous. That's just crazy absolutist thinking in my eyes and there's absolutely no way to have a reasonable debate when that's the starting point. It happens in the other direction too, no doubt, and it sucks and it stinks and it sucks every time from whatever direction.

But enough of that. I'm spent.

JOBU · Jan 10, 2024

cornwalls@6 said:
It’s kind of weak sauce canceling the thing because a few fans were, verbally, big meanies to them last year. But honestly, I couldn’t care less if they ever do stuff like this. Put a competitive, interesting product on the field again. Soon. That’s all the outreach I need.

This is not true at all. John Henry himself said there was no booing/heckling.

Auger34 · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
There are some who feel that way, but it seems like more of an argument now mostly between the "I'm nervous and unsure but I'll wait and see" contingent and the "Why bother, their fate is sealed" contingent, with the former being labeled by some of the the latter as FSG fanboys. And lately it sure seems there are a lot more posters claiming that FSG can do no right than vice versa. And it's all so much noise.

I really just think we can and should be more nuanced than that, wherever we stand, whatever we debate. Throwing around labels and jabs just inhibits constructive dialogue.

im sorry but I really don’t see it that way.

I think I would be considered a “‘negative” fan by a lot of posters here and I have been steadfast in saying that we have to wait. In fact, I would say the majority of “negative” posters have said that.

I just think it’s important to add that free agent options are dwindling and represented by Boras, there’s going to have to be a trade that hurts, or the pitching won’t be improved. And literally everyone on this board agreed that the pitching needed to be improved. I mean, those are facts at this point.
If the Sox sign Montgomery, I will post in that thread saying that my angst was misplaced and I am happy. I think other posters who have expressed frustration will do the same.

there’s a difference between “their fate is sealed” and “it looks pretty bleak right now”.

8slim · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
Not quite, but you're on the right track. I think frustration is what triggers the anger, but I think there are a lot of folks who are legit pissed off, and they have a right to be. It's the voracity of a lot of it that really surprises me.The fact that I have a hard time wrapping my head around it is not a judgement. It makes me sad more than anything.

I've been told a couple of times tonight (paraphrasing) that it is unbelievable that Henry has anyone that supports him and can't see how bad he is, and that saying anything positive about him now is ridiculous. That's just crazy absolutist thinking in my eyes and there's absolutely no way to have a reasonable debate when that's the starting point. It happens in the other direction too, no doubt, and it sucks and it stinks and it sucks every time from whatever direction.

But enough of that. I'm spent.

I started following the Sox in earnest in the early 80s, when I was a 9 year old. I recall my father and his buddies being very negative towards ownership then, largely because they let Fisk and Burleson go, and traded Lynn. They saw those guys as the heart of the team, and the cheapskate owners gutted it.

This current frustration, and occasional bursts of anger, originated with the Mookie trade. It’s that simple. He had to go for money reasons, yet we’re 4 years later and a lot of people are wondering where that supposed future investment has gone. We’ve been there before with a different ownership group. The current ones just were here for far rings.

I’m clearly not alone in posting more the last year as a reaction to some of the things I’ve read on the main board. A lot of the statistical stuff makes my eyes glaze over, but what I’ve really had a hard time with is those who attack the “critical” with talk of “entitlement”. I won’t apologize for saying that I do think fans are entitled to an ownership that’s genuinely doing everything they can to put the best product on the field, accounting for all circumstances (cap issues, need for farm growth, all that). IMHO the Sox haven’t done that, and it’s reflected in the fact that they’re made the playoffs all of once in the past five seasons.

And now I read that the “real” window isn’t opening until 2026-2028. We could be one for seven and counting at that point. I do feel like Sox fans deserve better than that.

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

Auger34 said:
im sorry but I really don’t see it that way.

Don't ever apologize for giving an honest good faith opinion. I appreciate the candor. We don't have to agree, but at least we're able to rationally discuss it. That's what's been missing most around here.

8slim said:
This current frustration, and occasional bursts of anger, originated with the Mookie trade. It’s that simple. He had to go for money reasons, yet we’re 4 years later and a lot of people are wondering where that supposed future investment has gone. We’ve been there before with a different ownership group. The current ones just were here for far rings.

It's not going to do the discourse here any good if I lay out my feelings on Mookie, lol....

Really good post, Slim.

8slim · Jan 10, 2024

CR67dream said:
It's not going to do the discourse here any good if I lay out my feelings on Mookie, lol....

Really good post, Slim.

LOL. And I’m not going to re-re-re-re-re-litigate it either! Just stating the obvious — the vast majority of the frustration/anger/venom we see stems from that trigger point.

I always say that my baseline expectation for the Sox each season is that they’re plausibly in the playoff race through Labor Day Weekend. The past 2 season they were 14.5 games back of the division on Labor Day. 2020 they were 12.5 back. 2019 they were 16 games back.

If I’m entitled for thinking it’s absurd that we can’t even be within single digits of the division lead on Labor Day in 4 of the past 5 years, then call me entitled. We’ve watched largely mediocre-to-bad baseball for much of the past 5 years. It’s getting old.

JCizzle · Jan 10, 2024

8slim said:
LOL. And I’m not going to re-re-re-re-re-litigate it either! Just stating the obvious — the vast majority of the frustration/anger/venom we see stems from that trigger point.

I always say that my baseline expectation for the Sox each season is that they’re plausibly in the playoff race through Labor Day Weekend. The past 2 season they were 14.5 games back of the division on Labor Day. 2020 they were 12.5 back. 2019 they were 16 games back.

If I’m entitled for thinking it’s absurd that we can’t even be within single digits of the division lead on Labor Day in 4 of the past 5 years, then call me entitled. We’ve watched largely mediocre-to-bad baseball for much of the past 5 years. It’s getting old.

I think you made a great point regarding the root cause. My concern moving forward is - why didn’t they learn from it? Fans seem to really like Casas. Why isn’t he locked up tonight with an extension? It takes two to tango, but it’s the fucking Red Sox - make it worth his while if you’re not going swimming in the big ticket FA market. That way you don’t end up committing $300M on a DH because you whiffed on Mookie and Xander…even if it’s still a very large number.

CR67dream · Jan 10, 2024

8slim said:
The past 2 season they were 14.5 games back of the division on Labor Day. 2020 they were 12.5 back. 2019 they were 16 games back.

Ok, now I'm pissed.

/chants mantra/

Oh, the word entitled is understandably incendiary, I try to never throw it around. Even if I did, I'd be an idiot to suggest that it applies to what you posted.

I want to win, too, man. I'm not as concerned about WS championships every year anymore, they're hard to win and 20% of them over the last 20 years took a bit of that urgency away, but I'm with you on demanding meaningful baseball into late September and beyond. I mean totally with you. No mas.

I don't know, but for some reason I'm just inclined to give a reasonably smart guy named Craig a little time to pull FSG's tainted feet out of the fire....

TapeAndPosts · Jan 10, 2024

I wanted to say I'm enjoying a lot of the discourse on this thread. It feels like a lot of us are expressing their points of view thoughtfully and listening to others respectfully, and it's kinda cool. Big thanks to @CR67dream who I can see is working very hard to elevate the discussion, and everyone else doing the same.

I am ~certainly~ not going to re-litigate the Mookie trade (that is pretty much against my religion at this point) but one thing occurring to me after he got mentioned was, whether the Red Sox have been good or not so good they have always had *stars*, great players, larger than life, for all of most of our lifetimes. From Yaz to Fisk and Rice and Lynn, Clemens, Boggs, Mo, Nomar, Pedro, Manny, Papi, Pedroia. Then Mookie came along, and once Papi retired and Pedey got hurt he was our big star.

And I wonder if part of the reason the Mookie-related anger has lingered is that once he was gone, no more stars came along. Xander you could call a star, maybe not as big; but he's gone now too. Sale was a star before he was hurt all the time, but he certainly didn't feel like one the last few years. Although we've brought in new players... we just don't have any big stars now. Raffy is the biggest, and I love him, but he's not on the level of a lot of these other guys. I cannot think of a moment in fifty years before now without stars — even if there were other moments where the team was bad.

Everyone dislikes losing, but I am thinking also having no players that really seem that special is a big factor in fan unhappiness. Put more briefly... maybe the reason people keep talking about Mookie is that it feels like our pantheon of true greats came to an end when he was gone.

Here's hoping that some of Casas and Mayer and Grissom and Teel and Anthony and whoever else they trade for starts the pantheon back up again.

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