Please God no.How would people feel about us getting Harbaugh from Michigan?
Very true but we don't know his contract so maybe it doesn't work like that.Can't he tell Kraft that he wants to come back, and then if Kraft wants to replace him he has to fire him? I guess if both Belichick and Kraft want to move on, then something could happen compensation wise.
Isn’t the easy answer, whomever is the next coach?Kraft firing BB removes the last barrier between Kraft and a lot of angry Patriots fans. Plenty of meat heads throwing heat at BB, where does Kraft think that vitriol is going to be pointed when he fires the greatest HC of all time and the team struggles?
As for BB landing on a "ready made" roster...I don't think it works. First - who is that team? The Bills maybe? And I don't think there's a snowballs chance in hell Kraft let's him go there unless it's for a kings randsom. Maybe the Cowboys if they crater in their first playoff game. That's it. Any other team has big questions.
The other side of the "ready made roster" argument is you don't bring BB to an established team that just needs a final push. BB is an organizational philosophy. He's not going to let holdovers do things their way. He's not going to let guys skate or operate outside of his structure. And that will lead to a lot of issues.
Frankly, if BB were to be canned, hes probably better suited going to a team that needs his organizational leadership. Turning a team around doesn't need to be about winning titles. There are alot of teams that could use his stability in the building. Let him get the wins record over the next 2 or 3 seasons as he builds a franchise, not a champion.
Because that is the special sauce.so then what do we need BB for if the success of a qb is out of the control of a head coach/gm?
He’s my second choice for HC, after Bill.How would people feel about us getting Harbaugh from Michigan?
Yes, he could. The question is how Kraft and Belichick wish to end their long-standing relationship. They both know it's going to end. But when, and under what conditions, are still yet to be determined (unless, of course, they have already determined it and just not leaked it to the public).Can't he tell Kraft that he wants to come back, and then if Kraft wants to replace him he has to fire him? I guess if both Belichick and Kraft want to move on, then something could happen compensation wise.
Watched the NFL lately?Reading this thread, you would come to believe that a QB is the only thing that matters to the success of an offense, and coaching is entirely incidental.
The only path to a good offense is to randomly luck into a QB and there's nothing else. And you can't blame the person who picked the bad QB instead of a good one, or the person who selects the personnel around the QB, or the coach who's job it is to create an infrastructure that develops the QB.
It's your contention that Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes would've been as good as they are had they been drafted by someone else? It had nothing to do with the situations they landed in, and it was just luck that these teams got them - not superior scouting?Because that is the special sauce.
The Bills have a great QB, and might not ever make the SB (now that I typed that place your bets on them)
The Chiefs have a great QB and a great head coach and might challenge the Pats consecutive AFFCG games record.
Cant think of too many cases in recent history of a team turning it around without getting a high end QB. There’s a few examples of going from below average to a little above average in a weak division with a stopgap QB but complete, sustained turnaround is heavily reliant upon nailing the QB spotI think people have a very warped view of NFL team building. This idea that it takes years has been proven wrong over and over again.
I really do think that if Bill came back, they nailed the draft, and filled in some holes on O, they could win the division next season. Obviously lots would need to go well, but it wouldn’t take a miracle.
Apparently some folks think going, say, 10-7and making the playoffs would be an awful fate though.
Hell, there are teams all over the playoffs this season who have had to rely on the their 2nd, 3rd or 4th string QB to win games.Reading this thread, you would come to believe that a QB is the only thing that matters to the success of an offense, and coaching is entirely incidental.
The only path to a good offense is to randomly luck into a QB and there's nothing else. And you can't blame the person who picked the bad QB instead of a good one, or the person who selects the personnel around the QB, or the coach who's job it is to create an infrastructure that develops the QB.
Harbaugh just turned 60. To sign Harbaugh probably requires a 5-6 year commitment, plus giving him full power over football operations. A wrong decision would set the franchise back a decade (post-Kraft era). Personally, he wouldn't be on my short list.How would people feel about us getting Harbaugh from Michigan?
Because on the list of things needed for a great team, a great head coach is somewhere close to 2nd on the list after a great qb.Watched the NFL lately?
Yes, I see above average offenses that don't have elite QBs and yet they can still score points and drive the ball. Their ability to do so wasn't purely accidental or "lucky."Watched the NFL lately?
This is always a silly exercise though. Unless they’re hiring the coach who just went to a conference champ game, who would be obviously better? Every hire is going to have flaws on his record.My “who’s available and better” question was rhetorical but purposeful since all the talk about it being time to move on implies that someone else would be an improvement. I realize that the answer may depend on the time horizon and how one defines success - eg winning more games in the short term vs developing a QB and rebuilding the rest of the roster. I just haven’t seen evidence of a true alternative; it’s not like there’s an obvious heir apparent. Maybe they’ll follow the current fashion and poach someone else’s 30-something offensive coordinator.
My contention is that to have sustained success you need a great QB and a great Head Coach/GM.It's your contention that Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes would've been as good as they are had they been drafted by someone else? It had nothing to do with the situations they landed in, and it was just luck that these teams got them - not superior scouting?
Well we’re going to have a new starting QB next season. And I suspect it’ll be a guy we take near the top of the draft. So we’ll be doing just as you suggest.Cant think of too many cases in recent history of a team turning it around without getting a high end QB. There’s a few examples of going from below average to a little above average in a weak division with a stopgap QB but complete, sustained turnaround is heavily reliant upon nailing the QB spot
Then he sucks as a QB. A good NFL QB wouldn’t get “broken” by a single year of a bad coordinator.Yes, Mac Jones would undoubtedly be better if he wasn't poisoned last year by Patricia and then by a laughably bad offensive line. He *was* better as a rookie.
Then Patricia (a defensive coach, and a legitimate head coaching failure) rolled in, a decision made by. . . Bill Belichick.
But now it's too late for him, he's broken.
This is pretty circular logic. Is Brock Purdy a "high-end QB"? Was Jalen Hurts a "high-end QB"? People were debating just how good Matt Stafford was before he went to Sean McVay (it was always assumed Megatron made him better). We call them high-end QBs once they become high-end QBs - but franchises actually have to invest in the offense around them to make them high-end. Brock Purdy on the Panthers is not a high-end QB and Bryce Young on the Niners might be awesome.Cant think of too many cases in recent history of a team turning it around without getting a high end QB. There’s a few examples of going from below average to a little above average in a weak division with a stopgap QB but complete, sustained turnaround is heavily reliant upon nailing the QB spot
Hey, we were told Demario Douglas is as good as Puka Nacua. So maybe they don't need Chark.That's what's so illogical about this QB discussion - look at Mahomes this year. We could draft Caleb Williams and it's not job done - he needs playmakers to throw it to and a decent line to protect him. Can we rely on BB to deliver the rest of it? Or is it going to be Caleb or Drake's or Jayden's fault when they don't develop because they're throwing to number one Free Agent signing DJ Chark?
That's enough. Seriously. Stop.Hey, we were told Demario Douglas is as good as Puka Nacua. So maybe they don't need Chark.
I think you need a young guy in here that has an innovative mind and is willing to stick around for a rebuild (on offense.) A Mike McDaniel type. Not Josh, he’s proven twice he’s not fit to be a head coach as he has a tendency to clash with players.He’s my second choice for HC, after Bill.
Probably not, but they have (mostly) settled QB situations and could be ready to compete as soon as BB Year 2.San Diego has a bottom 5 defense and are already obscenely over the cap for next season. Have you watched Lawrence and the Jaguars?
Neither of these teams are winning anything next season.
So then it wasn't Tom Brady but the team BB built around him? Sounds like we can trust him.This is pretty circular logic. Is Brock Purdy a "high-end QB"? Was Jalen Hurts a "high-end QB"? People were debating just how good Matt Stafford was before he went to Sean McVay (it was always assumed Megatron made him better). We call them high-end QBs once they become high-end QBs - but franchises actually have to invest in the offense around them to make them high-end. Brock Purdy on the Panthers is not a high-end QB and Bryce Young on the Niners might be awesome.
That's what's so illogical about this QB discussion - look at Mahomes this year. We could draft Caleb Williams and it's not job done - he needs playmakers to throw it to and a decent line to protect him. Can we rely on BB to deliver the rest of it? Or is it going to be Caleb or Drake's or Jayden's fault when they don't develop because they're throwing to number one Free Agent signing DJ Chark?
It's a combination of both - there needs to be underlying talent, but that talent isn't going to come out unless there's coaching and infrastructure in place as well. It's not a random occurrence and it's not pre-determined - they go hand in hand. Yeah, Bill was able to do it 22 years ago with a completely different cast of characters (Ernie Adams, Scar, Pioli, Weis, etc.) - is it just as likely he'll make it happen with BoB, Klemm, and Matt Groh?So then it wasn't Tom Brady but the team BB built around him? Sounds like we can trust him.
It's not the only thing, but it's probably like 75% of the thing.Reading this thread, you would come to believe that a QB is the only thing that matters to the success of an offense, and coaching is entirely incidental.
The only path to a good offense is to randomly luck into a QB and there's nothing else. And you can't blame the person who picked the bad QB instead of a good one, or the person who selects the personnel around the QB, or the coach who's job it is to create an infrastructure that develops the QB.
That could be a great way for Robert to kick off the conversation with Bill. Have a set of charts with Fears, Scarnecchia, Crennel, and so forth matched up with the current successors with career pedigrees for both groups. "What are we doing here, Bill?"It's a combination of both - there needs to be underlying talent, but that talent isn't going to come out unless there's coaching and infrastructure in place as well. It's not a random occurrence and it's not pre-determined - they go hand in hand. Yeah, Bill was able to do it 22 years ago with a completely different cast of characters (Ernie Adams, Scar, Pioli, Weis, etc.) - is it just as likely he'll make it happen with BoB, Klemm, and Matt Groh?
How many of those 20 teams scored the least amount of points this season?It's not the only thing, but it's probably like 75% of the thing.
You can blame the GM if you want, but there are probably only a dozen or so QBs good enough that we'd be happy with. So, I guess you'd have to blame 20 GMs every year for not being smart enough to have one of those 12ish guys.
Only one can, right?How many of those 20 teams scored the least amount of points this season?
No, I wouldn't be.Only one can, right?
What's your point? If they scored the 28th most points, you'd be OK with it?
Trying to follow this - you think that Brock Purdy, Jalen Hurts, Josh Allen, Jordan Love, Lamar Jackson, etc. would be just as successful on any other team? It's only 25% of the team's responsibility to set them up for success with scheme and talent?It's not the only thing, but it's probably like 75% of the thing.
You can blame the GM if you want, but there are probably only a dozen or so QBs good enough that we'd be happy with. So, I guess you'd have to blame 20 GMs every year for not being smart enough to have one of those 12ish guys.
Then your question added nothing. Great job.No, I wouldn't be.
But I am far less ok with the fact that the Patriots are last in the NFL in points in 2023.
Purdy and Hurts, probably not, but I don't think they are in the top 12ish QBs in the league we'd be happy with either. SF and Philly have built wagons around them. That's really threading a needle to accomplish, you have to have hit after hit after hit in the draft. Congrats to them for doing so, it's a fantastic job by them.Trying to follow this - you think that Brock Purdy, Jalen Hurts, Josh Allen, Jordan Love, Lamar Jackson, etc. would be just as successful on any other team? It's only 25% of the team's responsibility to set them up for success with scheme and talent?
Sorry, I just can't see it. Drop Brock Purdy on this Patriots team and we're all screaming for them to replace him.
If it's all so random, then the value of BB the coach isn't all that much, is it?
There are teams all over the league playing with their #2 or #3 QBs or even the corpse of Joe Flacco and every single one of them scored more points than the Pats. And all of them except two won more games.It's not the only thing, but it's probably like 75% of the thing.
You can blame the GM if you want, but there are probably only a dozen or so QBs good enough that we'd be happy with. So, I guess you'd have to blame 20 GMs every year for not being smart enough to have one of those 12ish guys.
I didn't say it's just the QB. I said it's probably like 75% the QB.There are teams all over the league playing with their #2 or #3 QBs or even the corpse of Joe Flacco and every single one of them scored more points than the Pats. And all of them except two won more games.
If it is just the QB how did they do it?
Thank you.Then your question added nothing. Great job.
I asked this in the other thread, but might as well do so here. Wouldn't a team wanting Belichick have to go thru the Rooney Rule requirements? Wouldn't that complicate a compensation transaction?Depends on what his contract says about 2024 compensation and 2024 NFL employment. Draft pick compensation could smooth any potential contractual issues.
Yes. Every team has to go through the Rooney rule. People expecting compensation for BB are delusional.I asked this in the other thread, but might as well do so here. Wouldn't a team wanting Belichick have to go thru the Rooney Rule requirements? Wouldn't that complicate a compensation transaction?
So what is it about the remaining 25% that the Patriots are failing so badly at? Other teams have been able to overcome bad QB play or scheme around it or whatever. For the Pats what I am hearing is they had bad QB play and that’s the end of the story and nobody on the coaching staff or in the front office has any accountability for a shit-tastic 4 win season.I didn't say it's just the QB. I said it's probably like 75% the QB.
It's right there in the post you quoted.
Not that much, they just have to interview every team has to, they work out compensation with Kraft as a condition of interviewing Bill. "we want to interview Bill, please allow it, and if we end up hiring him we'll give comp of X", then they do a normal hiring process. Wouldn't really slow down the Patriots any either since everyone has to wait until after Divisional to do interviews.I asked this in the other thread, but might as well do so here. Wouldn't a team wanting Belichick have to go thru the Rooney Rule requirements? Wouldn't that complicate a compensation transaction?
I think we'll agree to disagree here. Buffalo did a tremendous job of patiently developing Allen and took a risk (that paid off) with Diggs. Love has been lucky to have an FO that found a ton of young, useful receivers for him in just two drafts. Lamar Jackson, similarly, landed in a situation that utilized his strengths - it's not a foregone conclusion that every other team in the league would've done so.Purdy and Hurts, probably not, but I don't think they are in the top 12ish QBs in the league we'd be happy with either. SF and Philly have built wagons around them. That's really threading a needle to accomplish, you have to have hit after hit after hit in the draft. Congrats to them for doing so, it's a fantastic job by them.
Josh Allen, Jordan Love, Lamar Jackson, yes I believe they'd be just as successful on any other team. Or at least, the same general level of success.
Will a team be able to line up a set of other interviewees if BB is one of the candidates?Yes. Every team has to go through the Rooney rule. People expecting compensation for BB are delusional.
It may or may not be delusional. But it's not delusional because of the Rooney Rule.Yes. Every team has to go through the Rooney rule. People expecting compensation for BB are delusional.
It's not the remaining 25% that the Patriots are failing so badly at.So what is it about the remaining 25% that the Patriots are failing so badly at? Other teams have been able to overcome bad QB play or scheme around it or whatever. For the Pats what I am hearing is they had bad QB play and that’s the end of the story and nobody on the coaching staff or in the front office has any accountability for a shit-tastic 4 win season.
This is what drives me insane.Cant think of too many cases in recent history of a team turning it around without getting a high end QB. There’s a few examples of going from below average to a little above average in a weak division with a stopgap QB but complete, sustained turnaround is heavily reliant upon nailing the QB spot
No of course the QB position is really important. I just think it is ridiculous to think that the Pats QB situation was so much worse than everyone else’s that you can point the finger at that, alone, as the problem with the team and excuse everything else that stunk about the Patriots in 2023.It's not the remaining 25% that the Patriots are failing so badly at.
The 75% failed so badly, that the 25% that was below average turned into an F.
Is it breaking news that the QB position is really, really, like really important?
No it’s breaking news that the coach and GM have nothing to do with acquiring and developing that 75%.It's not the remaining 25% that the Patriots are failing so badly at.
The 75% failed so badly, that the 25% that was below average turned into an F.
Is it breaking news that the QB position is really, really, like really important?
What happened that offseason in Buffalo?Allen is kinda fascinating, he was trash his first two years. He is kinda a weird one, it's actually amazing he put it all together.