Except there really can't be too much deception here -- the defense gets notified who's eligible. It's not a secret.
Week 17
- Thread starter luckiestman
- Start date
Recalling the Pats- Ravens' "maybe harbaugh should learn the rules game."
At least when a BB team "cheats", they succeed at it!
Actually three came up to the official (2 already on the field plus Skipper), but it was an attempt to hide from the Cowboys which player was reporting as eligible. Official was skipping along and didn't really pay attention it seems.
They are going to get smoked in a road playoff game and his seat will get really warm. Jerry will blow a gasket and get googly eyes for BB.
Not saying the espn guy isn’t a clown, but I think that I remember from DYJ that the Pats players would double and triple-check with the refs to make sure they were being reported properly in the Baltimore game.
Not sure what you would do if the comms get screwed up in a one-shot situation like this, but I imagine BB would call timeout if the reporting situation was announced wrong or whatever.
Who said he didn't care about winning? The only time Dallas stopped them on any play of the drive is when Goff spiked the ball. The Cowboys were in a state of shock...that wasn't suboptimal from the 7 under those conditions imo.
But they were trying to make it confusing as to which guy was actually eligible. If Decker alone has to chase the ref, that doesn’t help
I’m just tired of these reporters who are the “rules guy” bending themselves into pretzels to defend the zebras
Going for 2 from the 7 yard line down by 1 is not the right call if you care about winning.
State of shock or not, that's not close to the percentage play.
Im not sure theres supposed to be "deception" on reporting.
A team can line up "deceptively," but no matter how correct the positioning, lets say Trent Brown lines up wide right at the numbers, he cant be eligible because of his number, unless he reported.
No idea why the ref was running away from the players attempting to report. Entire scene was bizarre.
Does the deception really fly if the ref has to announce to the defense who's eligible? I get the BB approach with the Ravens where you scramble their instincts through a formation, but here it would have been pretty clear with a big guy running a route.
I had to look up the BB play again -- apparently the issue there wasn't just a tackle reporting eligible, but a RB (Vereen) reporting ineligible. While being split out from the line. So not really a comp here, but of the same ilk.
Is a fake punt from your own 30 a high percentage play? Campbell has always flown by the seat of his pants with his decision making. I don't agree that bailing Dallas out after not stopping them one time on the drive is the right call but it's Definitely not Campbells style.
That really struck me too. Why was he in such a rush? It's not like it was a hurry-up situation. And the ESPN rules guy says "Number 68 needs to own some of this" because he didn't make more of an effort to get his attention.
If you recall, the official eventually was advising the Ravens NOT to cover a guy, but the defense in the heat of the moment falls back into its SOPs. I very much doubt the Cowboys decided not to cover #68 because he didn't report as eligible. They didn't cover him because he lined up and he looked like the same LT he had been all game.
I'm also pretty sure Dan Campbell said at the PC that he went over it with the ref before the game even started. Which is fairly typical when you have a trick play that might confuse he official. Which means that the ref either didn't realize what was going on, or he gave Dallas the wrong number.
And BTW, need to remember that if the ref had properly called 68 eligible, the Dallas D may have played it a lot differently. The score only happened because the D didn't realize 68 was supposed to be eligible. So the whole play was fucked up start to finish.
Really should have been a do-over, if only the rules had allowed it.
Really should have been a do-over, if only the rules had allowed it.
Right but as soon as #68 runs downfield their instinct would be to cover him because he's not allowed to do that unless he's eligible.
You can't run a good play like that with a complete doofus as a referee and Campbell should have known better than to try.
Lions getting a lot of love on the ESPN post-game show for supposedly outplaying the Cowboys - "if not for that 92-yard TD pass," etc. But Lamb fumbled a sure TD through the end zone for a touchback, and Goff threw two picks. These are two good but flawed teams, and I guess it's fitting that it essentially came down to a coin flip in the end.
No, I’m pretty sure I have this one right. 68 is conversing with the ref, and he leaves before 70 gets there to tell Dallas something. I presume it was that Detroit was reporting an eligible receiver but maybe he was sharing a recipe.
They must point differently where I’m from because I never saw the ref point at 70. He didn’t appear to say one word to anyone but 68. Rule 5-3-1 explicitly says the player must report, so a plain reading suggests either that Allen was the one confused by who was reporting (thinking 68 was 70, which if true is just awful), or in a scenario that makes Occam spin in his grave, 68 was telling Allen that 70 was reporting.
Edit: Goff just claimed that only one reported and it was 68. Campbell said the refs told them 70 reported and 68 didn’t. The video looks to me like 68 reported and 70 didn’t but who knows. Maybe Zapruder. Maybe it’s payback for the ref getting the Bettis coin toss call wrong way back when.
Would be interested to know if the grading the League does of the officials takes account at all of the timing of missed calls (late in games, affecting outcomes, etc.). Probably not, at least officially. But you can bet this will count against Allen getting any big playoff games.
Yeah, the genius of the Belichick play was using psychology. He had guts who were wearing eligible numbers and who were running routes all game declare themselves ineligible but line up in positions from which routes were usually run. But instead of running routes, they just stayed at the line — they didn’t got downfield. That meant they counted as linemen.
The Ravens defenders though couldn’t really process that. Their instinct was to treat running backs split wide as pass catchers.
Simultaneously, they put a tight end (Hoo-man, the I think maybe Gronk) in to appear to be an extra lineman, but really they were eligible to run routes because of the decoy linemen. So there were open tight ends.
I thought the deal was Bettis said “hea-tails” because he forgot what he wanted to call, and the ref was legally bound at the time to interpret it as heads.
Look at the video on the previous page. At 6 seconds as 70 is running in, Allen looks right at him, points at him with his left hand, clocks 70’s jersey number, then uses the same hand to take the whistle out of his mouth while he is running to the LOS. It is clear as day to me once you see it it that Allen believes 70 is reporting. He is looking right at him. Then he clocks the number and heads over to tell the Cowboys, taking the whistle out of his mouth to do so. The point is hard to see but it looks to be clear to me — it is kind of a head on view but he is pointing right at 70.
I would bet that the answer to the question nobody is asking — who were the cowboys told was eligible — it was 70.
Maybe it was loud and Allen did not hear 68. Maybe 70 had declared earlier in the game and so made assumptions he should not have made. Maybe Allen made an assumption because why else would 70 be running straight at him when entering the game. The rule specifically says you cannot stop the clock to allow eligibility reporting, so Allen was probably moving fast. Dunno, maybe there are mechanics that he fucked up, but from what it looks like to me, three guys approached him and he believed it was 70 who was reporting. Why 70 was running toward Allen when 68 was declaring? Well, I think we have some evidence here the Lions we’re trying to be deceptive.
Edit — I was typing as the pool report was posted above. This is exactly what it looked like to me. I do not believe Allen confused 68 and 70. He thought 70 was reporting, just like he had before, and told that to the Cowboys. How loud 68 was, we will never know. I fucking hate the Cowboys, but where I come down on this was the Lions we’re trying to be deceptive.
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Or maybe Allen was simply confused, because as I wrote earlier, Rule 5-3-1 specifically says the player claiming to be eligible must report to the referee. 68 can’t report for 70. 70 didn’t talk to Allen. Allen screwed up.
The “deception” idea is a stretch because Detroit planning to having 70 report as eligible but line up as ineligible would be the height of incompetence. 70 lined up in the RG position, Sewell was in the RT position, the LG position snapped the ball, and 68 was lined up to the left of the LT, with a receiver lined up outside him and a step back - making him eligible.
Lastly, all of Goff, Campbell, and Decker reported that Decker reported to Allen as eligible.
Allen fucked up. That’s all there is to it.
And he should be fired for it and all the other shitty calls he and his staff have made.
The Lions ran the play as though 68 reported but 70 did not. The refs officiated the play as though 70 reported but 68 did not. Whose fault the confusion was is unclear.
But 70 lined up in a position that does not require eligibility. That is what Allen is saying. Also, because they thought he had declared eligible, it was an illegal formation.
#70 comes in a few times a game for jumbo packages apparently, so the ref made a bad assumption. Especially if Campbell told him they might try this.
This doesn't even make sense. Allen never acknowledged 70 after 68 was clearly seen speaking to him. Why wasn't Allen asked what Decker was saying to him? It seems like Allen confused 68 and 70....that's the only explanation that makes sense. Allen was already on his way to share with the Cowboys the information and 70 isn't even there yet.
The other funny thing lost in all of this is just how completely McCarthy fucked up the Cowboys' last possession. It was a good reminder of why I used to feel so bad for Aaron Rodgers -- he had to overcome both the other team and his own coach so often. Can't wait to see how the Cowboys snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the playoffs.
How do you know 70 didn’t say anything to Allen. He literally runs straight at him, and even tries to follow him as Allen starts walking to the LOS.
I mean, I get that I am clearly in the minority here so don’t want to be the asshole contrarian, but why else is 70 running directly from the bench toward the ref? It looks exactly like he is trying to report.
I assume Campbell is not lying when he said he gave the officials a preview of the play pregame.
It’s fair to say that it’s on the Lions to get the eligibility straightened out or abort the play if the PA announcement is wrong, but it sure seems like Allen screwed up the announcement and is trying to deny it.
It’s fair to say that it’s on the Lions to get the eligibility straightened out or abort the play if the PA announcement is wrong, but it sure seems like Allen screwed up the announcement and is trying to deny it.
I will stop after this, but I do not know how anyone can watch this video and not believe that Allen genuinely believes 70 is trying to report. He looks right at him and 70 is running right toward him. Maybe Allen was guilty of not listening to 68 or making assumptions based on the fact that 70 had reported previously, so it still could be a fuck up, but he genuinely believed 70 was the one reporting. Garafolo is seeing exactly what I am seeing.
What do you make of 70 lining up as an ineligible receiver? That was a cleverly designed and precisely executed play. The Lions didn’t want to deceive the officials, they wanted to deceive Dallas. They NEEDED the officials to know what they were doing.
I refuse to fault 70 for being eager to get into the game and ready to run that play. Allen’s a human being and I’m sure him family loves him but we all just witnessed what was not his finest professional moment.
In Allen’s version that 70 reported, why wasn’t a flag thrown for illegal formation as soon as the ball was snapped?
Illegal formation is not like false start. You run the play. If Detroit had failed to convert, Dallas can decline. According to the pool report, they dropped two flags — one for illegal touching and one for illegal formation but they only announced the accepted penalty.
That is them lying again. You always announce all penalties and state which is/are declined and which is accepted. They are changing it after the fact to try to make it seem consistent, but illegal formation was not called on the field in real time. Liars liars pants on fire.
You allow the play to run but throw the flag immediately and then still announce the penalty even if there was another or superseding foul.
Correct. All the time you hear officials announce: “There are two penalties on the play, both on the offense.” Then they announce one that is declined, and one that is accepted.