Calvin Anderson. He’s just bad. I need a gif of him just ignoring a free rusher on that third down pitch play. It was like the Dolphins player was invisible.
Game 2 Mia, goats
- Thread starter AB in DC
- Start date
- Mac + receivers weren't quick enough to deal with o-line under pressure, 4 sacks to 1 in favor of MIA.
- MIA ran all over the D, both inside and outside, including the backbreaker TD.
As such, goats to both Pats lines.
- MIA ran all over the D, both inside and outside, including the backbreaker TD.
As such, goats to both Pats lines.
Their defense was excellent that year. I remember the Rams coming in in November and we beat the crap out of them even though we lost. It was that game that told me we were going to play some good winter football.
OL
Skill position players
Belichick
Mac may suck but BB has committed malpractice sticking him with a terrible offensive line and skill position players in the last 3 years all while wasting a rookie QB contract.
Skill position players
Belichick
Mac may suck but BB has committed malpractice sticking him with a terrible offensive line and skill position players in the last 3 years all while wasting a rookie QB contract.
Belichick for putting this OL together and for stubbornly benching Douglas for the rest of the game. His poor drafting and signings of wideouts do not give him the luxury of benching his most dynamic slot receiver.
It’s the OL. A lot of focus rightfully gets directed at pass protection but the run blocking was equally terrible.
Stevenson was 15 carries for 50 yards.
Elliott was 5 carries for 13 yards.
They were out of sync all night on their run blocking.
Stevenson was 15 carries for 50 yards.
Elliott was 5 carries for 13 yards.
They were out of sync all night on their run blocking.
I'm going to say O'Brien. He's been pretty disappointing so far. We already know the O-Line needs work. Pats should be running a spread offense with the running backs supplementing the pass game. Instead, the first half we get the same old run it on first down, pass later. This needs to be a quick striking, in-rhythm pass offense (that takes pressure off the O-line).
And you need to be using play-action at least some percentage of the time. Have we seen it even once this year?
And you need to be using play-action at least some percentage of the time. Have we seen it even once this year?
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It's Groundhog Day. This team is just good enough to lose close games to good teams. They fall behind, then work their way back into the game, then can't score at the end to tie or win the game. @SMU_Sox said it, too much has to go right the way they are playing. I'm neither pro nor anti Mac, but this same script continues to happen week after week. Remember BB's quote, along the lines of, "he's good enough to play in this league"? He was absolutely right. Mac is good enough to play in the NFL. But he's not good enough to elevate a poor OL and mediocre skill position talent.
Re: the OL, in fairness I will say that good OL play requires cohesiveness and continuity, which is really hard to build when different guys are hurt each week.
Also, on the defense. It's a good defense. But they still allow too many long drives in crucial situations to be considered great IMO. Those long back to back drives last week against Philly in the 2nd half were harmful, and the first two drives last night were like 12 plays / FG and 11 plays / TD. With the state of the offense, falling behind is a death knell (I know that they've made it a game coming back from 16-0 down and 17-3 down the last two weeks, but that is kind of the point - a team that is build on playing good D, running the ball well, and playing good special teams has to play from ahead). They simply haven't proven they can score late to win games when they need to.
Re: the OL, in fairness I will say that good OL play requires cohesiveness and continuity, which is really hard to build when different guys are hurt each week.
Also, on the defense. It's a good defense. But they still allow too many long drives in crucial situations to be considered great IMO. Those long back to back drives last week against Philly in the 2nd half were harmful, and the first two drives last night were like 12 plays / FG and 11 plays / TD. With the state of the offense, falling behind is a death knell (I know that they've made it a game coming back from 16-0 down and 17-3 down the last two weeks, but that is kind of the point - a team that is build on playing good D, running the ball well, and playing good special teams has to play from ahead). They simply haven't proven they can score late to win games when they need to.
I honestly can't tell if this team is pretty good and about to break out, or if they're only really good enough to lose. Because they're THISCLOSE to winning these games, but they never seem to actually be able to. It's not hard at all to see a scenario where they win last night. The ref doesn't overturn the call, the Pats go down and score, and maybe win in OT or - gasp - go for two and win it right there. Same with last week....very easy for me to see how they COULD have won that game.
In two games total:
NE: 37 points, Opp: 49 points
NE: 670 yards, Opp: 640 yards
NE: 47 first downs, Opp: 39 first downs
NE: 4 turnovers, Opp: 2 turnovers
NE's defense:
- Philadelphia averaged 28.1 points and 389 yards last year. They scored 34 points and had 430 yards this week at Minnesota. But the Pats' D held them to 18 points (7 came on a defensive score for Philly, remember) and 251 yards.
- Miami with Tua averaged 27.6 points and 370 yards last year. They scored 36 points and had 536 yards last week at LA. But the Pats' D held them to 24 points and 389 yards.
So that's encouraging. They've kept two of the most explosive offenses in the league basically in check. I wouldn't say "shut them down" because they didn't do that. But they did well - and this week was without their #1 CB, who usually does a very good job on Tyreek Hill.
So the D has very much kept them in games. They held Miami to just 153 total yards and 7 points in the second half, and it wasn't at all "garbage time". It was the Pats' defense stepping up keeping the team in the game.
But man....the offense. Mac definitely made some big plays - some huge throws (even a nice run) under a lot of pressure. But they just. can't. seem. to. get. it. done.
It's maddening. And for all the praise I just heaped on the D.... the offense couldn't do much against a middling defense. It's not like Miami is the 85 Bears or anything. They're...decent. And the Pats should have put up at least 24 points on them. So frustrating.
In two games total:
NE: 37 points, Opp: 49 points
NE: 670 yards, Opp: 640 yards
NE: 47 first downs, Opp: 39 first downs
NE: 4 turnovers, Opp: 2 turnovers
NE's defense:
- Philadelphia averaged 28.1 points and 389 yards last year. They scored 34 points and had 430 yards this week at Minnesota. But the Pats' D held them to 18 points (7 came on a defensive score for Philly, remember) and 251 yards.
- Miami with Tua averaged 27.6 points and 370 yards last year. They scored 36 points and had 536 yards last week at LA. But the Pats' D held them to 24 points and 389 yards.
So that's encouraging. They've kept two of the most explosive offenses in the league basically in check. I wouldn't say "shut them down" because they didn't do that. But they did well - and this week was without their #1 CB, who usually does a very good job on Tyreek Hill.
So the D has very much kept them in games. They held Miami to just 153 total yards and 7 points in the second half, and it wasn't at all "garbage time". It was the Pats' defense stepping up keeping the team in the game.
But man....the offense. Mac definitely made some big plays - some huge throws (even a nice run) under a lot of pressure. But they just. can't. seem. to. get. it. done.
It's maddening. And for all the praise I just heaped on the D.... the offense couldn't do much against a middling defense. It's not like Miami is the 85 Bears or anything. They're...decent. And the Pats should have put up at least 24 points on them. So frustrating.
Roster construction and coaching.
The roster is devoid of talent, particularly on offense. This is year 4 post-Brady rebuild and they have a bottom tier NFL roster. They aren’t the worst roster in the league, but they are far and away the worst in their division and it isn’t close.
Despite that I always thought we had a coaching staff that could do more with less, and they can’t anymore. They basically play to their talent level on both sides of the ball.
As a great man once said, they are exactly who we thought they were. And that is a .500 or worse NFL team that will beat shitty teams and lose to good teams.
The roster is devoid of talent, particularly on offense. This is year 4 post-Brady rebuild and they have a bottom tier NFL roster. They aren’t the worst roster in the league, but they are far and away the worst in their division and it isn’t close.
Despite that I always thought we had a coaching staff that could do more with less, and they can’t anymore. They basically play to their talent level on both sides of the ball.
As a great man once said, they are exactly who we thought they were. And that is a .500 or worse NFL team that will beat shitty teams and lose to good teams.
I'm not sure any QB in the league could have overcome the play by the OL last night. And there is only so much you can scheme around a broken OL that can neither run block nor pass protect. OK, Mahomes/Kelce would make some plays, although KC fans would be holding their breath every play if Mahomes had to play behind this line.
Sometimes these things are correctable in season; first time Strange or Onwenu played and neither one has been a full practice participant yet. Brown being out hurts as well. But agree they are looking like a 4/5 win team if the line is this bad every week.
Sometimes these things are correctable in season; first time Strange or Onwenu played and neither one has been a full practice participant yet. Brown being out hurts as well. But agree they are looking like a 4/5 win team if the line is this bad every week.
On the bright side, if they're a 4-5 win team this year, they'll have a great shot at one of the elite QBs coming out this year.
Definitely not good. But you can make that work if you're consistently making modest gains. Just dink and dunk your way down the field. The problem was they couldn't do that consistently, and when they did, they had backbreaking turnovers. And they didn't have any huge plays to counteract it. And it's even like their total yards were that great, not against that defense.
Here's what I don't understand...
BB has a long standing defensive strategy where he'll willingly give yards -- sometimes lots of yards -- in order to prevent big plays, and have the D stiffen in the red zone. So we have a bunch of games where it seems like the D is getting gashed, but then we look up and they've only given up 17 points in 3 quarters. BB knows that it is exceedingly difficult for an offense to consistently string together 10, 12, 14 play drives for TDs. Things break down, penalties occur, turnovers happen.
And yet... this is precisely what we're trying to do on offense! No explosive weapons, no big plays. Just grind it out runs and short passes. Trying to move the ball 75 yards in 12 plays. And we can successfully do that a couple times a game, at best, don't score enough, and lose.
I'm utterly baffled at why the approach we know works preventing TDs on D is the one we're trying to employ on offense.
BB has a long standing defensive strategy where he'll willingly give yards -- sometimes lots of yards -- in order to prevent big plays, and have the D stiffen in the red zone. So we have a bunch of games where it seems like the D is getting gashed, but then we look up and they've only given up 17 points in 3 quarters. BB knows that it is exceedingly difficult for an offense to consistently string together 10, 12, 14 play drives for TDs. Things break down, penalties occur, turnovers happen.
And yet... this is precisely what we're trying to do on offense! No explosive weapons, no big plays. Just grind it out runs and short passes. Trying to move the ball 75 yards in 12 plays. And we can successfully do that a couple times a game, at best, don't score enough, and lose.
I'm utterly baffled at why the approach we know works preventing TDs on D is the one we're trying to employ on offense.
You can't play this way on offense with little to zero margin for error. It is literally the way they played other teams on defense (and kind of still do) for years. Give them 4-5 yards a play and assume they will make the one back breaking mistake per drive that will prevent points. Their offense has evolved into exactly the kind of offense this team has feasted upon for 20 years.
Edit: or what @8slim said
I think bunching these games together isn't correct. They were vastly superior to the Eagles on both sides of the ball in the opener, they climbed back into that game because dumb mistakes were the only thing that put them down in the first place. Yesterday the Dolphins ran 10 fewer plays and got 100 more yards than them, in my view they were very fortunate to be in any position to tie that game at the end, don't think it was as close as the final score. Week 1? Sure, missed opportunity, were the better team and couldn't capitalize.
If your offense has to be perfect and can’t overcome a holding penalty or a sack or generate more explosive plays you can’t win consistently. Teams start sitting on your underneath options and playing closer to the line. You won’t win much at all generating 4.1 yards per play. That’s bottom 2-3 offenses kind of territory.
Mainly the OL but plenty of blame to go around particularly on that side of the ball. Team as a whole was outplayed and seemed fortunate to be in it at the end.
If you aren't going to fault Douglas for that fumble, I don't know when you ever would fault a ball carrier. Extremely careless on his part. I have no issue with his lack of playing time after that. However, I hope they don't hold it against him going forward.
On the plus side, special teams including the ST coaching. Very well timed by Schooler on the block. Excellent play. Drawn up well and executed beautifully. Also Gonzalez and really the DBs in general considering the injuries.
If you aren't going to fault Douglas for that fumble, I don't know when you ever would fault a ball carrier. Extremely careless on his part. I have no issue with his lack of playing time after that. However, I hope they don't hold it against him going forward.
On the plus side, special teams including the ST coaching. Very well timed by Schooler on the block. Excellent play. Drawn up well and executed beautifully. Also Gonzalez and really the DBs in general considering the injuries.
The Douglas fumble changed the game. They were driving and had we scored there the whole dynamic of the game changes. Can’t win playing from behind. This team has to stop screwing themselves early. They don’t have the horses to come from behind and finish things off. They come up short every time. I think a little of that is on Mac. He’s not a bad QB. He just doesn’t have “it.” A team can win with Mac but he doesn’t have the talent to overcome even a single mistake.
On the plus side, the defense was down 3 of its top 4 corners (all defensive Joneses), and they still held up pretty well against a potent passing attack. So I do think especially with that context, the defense is legit. But they need to either fix the OL or fix the skill position group, and given that the latter isn’t really possible, the only hope for this team to get to 8-10 wins is if the OL gels quickly and starts putting up better performances. I was optimistic this could be a 10-11 win team this year with improvement on offense, but if the OL is this bad, that number gets cut in half very quickly.
One thing about the "they're play well enough to be close" thing... that's the NFL.
18 of the 28 games played this season have been decided by one score.
It's a league where the difference between good teams and mediocre teams is consistently winning all of those inevitably close games. Losing all these close games just reinforces the notion that we're not good, not that we're about to break out.
18 of the 28 games played this season have been decided by one score.
It's a league where the difference between good teams and mediocre teams is consistently winning all of those inevitably close games. Losing all these close games just reinforces the notion that we're not good, not that we're about to break out.
Mac has now had a 3 year career of getting the ball late in close games with a chance to win or tie and has never, ever once been able to come through. I think it's now 8 or 9 games in 3 years. And you look at the games and say "Oh well it's not his fault since Harris fumbled and/or Folk hit the upright and/or Jakobi lost his damn mind," but Mac is the guy who puts them in the hole and he's the guy without enough arm strength to get them out of it.
I fully expect now going forward that if they are down in a close game and get the ball with one last drive to win it, they won't come through. Mac doesn't have "it."
Yes the OL stinks. Yes the WRs aren't dynamic. Yes they play sloppy. But the one constant in these games over the last 3 years is Mac.
And the team as a whole plays as if they expect to lose. They have zero confidence that they will pull it out. Thus you see boneheaded plays from players doing too much.
And goddamn, that INT Mac threw to Parker was EGREGIOUS. I can't possibly understand what he thought he was doing there.
Right. We wait for them to turn it around. And wait. And wait. And wait. And it never, ever happens. Dallas in OT a couple of years ago. GB in OT last year. Yesterday, the week before. It goes on and on and on and the Pats never ever figure it out. And I believe at this point they never will.
Over time very few teams are much better than 500 in close games. Teams like the vikings who were great in close games last year are not so good the next year. The difference between good teams and bad teams isn't being in close games, it's being the winning teams in those 10 games that _aren't_ devided by one score.
It is the lack of explosive plays that is particularly concerning. I don't think Mac has hit on a deep ball yet, but the YAC is almost non existent, particularly from the WRs. Rham has over 1/3 of the team's YAC (69 out of 190) but also has a total of 64 receiving yards, half of which came on one play. Dink and dunk is one thing, but some of those 4 and 6 yard passes need to turn into 15 yard gains.
Mac made the same decision last year to Agholor vs the Bills. You throw it quickly and hope your guy wins his route. It wasn’t a good throw but the way Parker played it it probably is picked even with a perfect throw. You can’t lose like that.
Mac had some throws on the move that were strikes last night.
His pressure stats are nuts. He’s in the 30-32% pressure rate over two games with the 3rd or 4th quickest release. That’s horrible.
Mac had some throws on the move that were strikes last night.
His pressure stats are nuts. He’s in the 30-32% pressure rate over two games with the 3rd or 4th quickest release. That’s horrible.
Yeah we know historically even the great teams are roughly .500 in close games. The key is to not have many close games and win a lot more in larger fashion. That’s just not likely with this offense.
Edit: to be clear I 100% agree with you.
I don't think that's how they're TRYING to play, or at least WANTING to play. But when your OL is getting murdered, you don't have time for the QB to try for chunk plays. They do have an explosive guy (Thornton) but he's on the IR. Getting a guy like Hopkins wouldn't have helped with that, as he's not that kind of player anymore really either.
I would quibble with the “they’ve been close to winning” these games. They’ve been close to tying them.
They were driving with the ball at the end down 5 to the Eagles. A TD wins the game. But as always they couldn't quite do it.
They had plays where he went deep. The issue was Parker and Bourne are running those routes with no separation and couldn’t come down with the ball. The one throw to Bourne was a joke. The corner was a step ahead of him and in better position on the route.
Bill constructed a lousy OL. I've been beating that horse to death since before training camp.
I also completely reject that TT is an explosive guy. He's a lousy receiver and a bust until he proves otherwise.
Chucking the ball deep a few times a game with a QB who's not good at deep balls, throwing to WRs who can't win the fights for those balls, isn't a viable strategy.
So what's the fix? They need a new QB apparently. A new OL. And a new set of WRs. Other than that....they're in great shape offensively, right?
What's your plan if you were in charge?
Mac had two balls last night that were deep shots dropped into the bucket and neither WR brought them in. Vs Philly he had another handful of them. I don’t think the deep shot is his forte or anything but if he had better guys out there I don’t think we’d be lamenting that aspect of his game.
their first two games they have averaged 4.9 and 4.1 yards per play. That’s unfortunately awful.
Right. This team seems unlikely to not be in close games unless they real turn things around!
I'm far more hopeful than most; I think the o-line will coalesce, I think the Eagles and the Dolphins are both very good, i was very impressed by Mac outside of the pick, and I think the defense is going to start getting very good.
Nothing much now. But the lack of talent was pretty glaring after last year and pretty much nothing was done to address it. I think the idea (hope) was that better coaching would somehow transform the same personnel that was so lousy last year. Early returns aren’t looking great.
There is no way any team could sustain a dink-and-dunk drive with the play of the OL last night.
Yes. If I were in charge I'd have busted my ass to overhaul the OL this offseason, but not much you can do about that now. I also would have signed Hopkins (not that he's great, but he's something). And I wouldn't have drafted Thornton in the 2nd round, because that was a huge reach. But again, that's water under the bridge.
There's not much to do this season other than hope the OL becomes functional and that the WRs magically gain the power of separation and will.
Well for one I wouldn’t have drafted Thornton.
Assuming I am in charge now though and not before? Ok well it’s the season already. It’s hard to add talent mid-stream.
My solution would be to add dynamic pass catchers and fix the OL. I’m keeping Mac. Even the best QBs out there have top shelf guys to throw to. They’ve once again put him in a terrible position.
That's fair. My point remains though. Merely being in close games doesn't mean that we're ohsoclose to being good. It probably means the opposite.
Shitty OL, not dynamic WRs, and some sloppiness has been a constant over the past three years with Mac.
There is no "fix'". They need for the OL to improve organically (lots of draft capital invested there recently) and hope that one of the rookie WR's can develop. Or wait for the expected availability of WRs this offseason (both vet and via draft). Mac was part of the problem, but wasn't THE problem; even Mahomes would have struggled with that line.
Parker dropped an easy pass late in the first half that ended a drive. Then ran a horrible route and did nothing to prevent the INT. Bourne gave up on a deep ball that would have been a TD in the 2nd half. It is time to move on from this group of pass catchers once the opportunity arises.
I think Douglas is pretty dynamic. The move he made after the catch last night was terrific. Then he fumbled. It's always something.
Bourne is really good (if he had Mahomes or even in this Miami offense he'd be putting up silly numbers), but he's not a blazer - not the guy you throw deep to and expect him to just race by his guy.
They need to work like crazy to fix the OL, and they need to keep taking bites of the QB and WR apple.
Bourne is really good (if he had Mahomes or even in this Miami offense he'd be putting up silly numbers), but he's not a blazer - not the guy you throw deep to and expect him to just race by his guy.
They need to work like crazy to fix the OL, and they need to keep taking bites of the QB and WR apple.