2022-23 NBA Game Thread

Sam Ray Not said:

(1) heaves should not be counted as fga (which actually has a real negative impact on the game, since it incentives players to swallow the ball at the end of quarters)

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I think players who don’t heave because of their shooting percentage don’t have their heads in the right place, but I don’t doubt that it happens occasionally. Not sure it’s worth making a statistical change for it. If players want to slightly diminish their team’s win probability in favor of a slightly higher personal stat, that’s their and their coach’s problem. But I’m curious how heaves would show up on the stat sheet in your perfect world. Would they be tracked as a completely separate set of stats standing next to 2P, 3P, and FT?

djbayko said:

I think players who don’t heave because of their shooting percentage don’t have their heads in the right place, but I don’t doubt that it happens occasionally. Not sure it’s worth making a statistical change for it. If players want to slightly diminish their team’s win probability in favor of a slightly higher personal stat, that’s their and their coach’s problem. But I’m curious how heaves would show up on the stat sheet in your perfect world. Would they be tracked as a completely separate set of stats standing next to 2P, 3P, and FT?

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I would count it as a 3fg and 3fga on the rare occasion it goes in, and a nothing if does not. Similar to how a successful sacrifice bunt is counted as a single and an AB if you beat it out, and a nothing if you don’t. As with sac bunts and sac flies, you could note it somewhere below, but not give it a separate column. It would also appear on the player’s page on BB-Ref, under the Shooting tab in the “heaves” column — as it does now.

I dunno, to me there’s just a fundamental, qualitative difference between missing a shot that wastes a team possession (thereby contributing to losing) and intentionally creating a new possession that would otherwise not be used. Similar to the fundamental difference between an out that intentionally advances or scores a runner and one that does not.

Shooting percentages are meant to record accuracy and efficiency; and would do so more accurately with that extremely easy fix.

Nice article on Mitchell and the training he did in the off-season to be in such great shape to score 71 points in 51 minutes

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/35369491/why-donovan-mitchell-historic-71-point-performance-was-just-matter

Sam Ray Not said:

I would count it as a 3fg and 3fga on the rare occasion it goes in, and a nothing if does not. Similar to how a successful sacrifice bunt is counted as a single and an AB if you beat it out, and a nothing if you don’t. As with sac bunts and sac flies, you could note it somewhere below, but not give it a separate column. It would also appear on the player’s page on BB-Ref, under the Shooting tab in the “heaves” column — as it does now.

I dunno, to me there’s just a fundamental, qualitative difference between missing a shot that wastes a team possession (thereby contributing to losing) and intentionally creating a new possession that would otherwise not be used. Similar to the fundamental difference between an out that intentionally advances or scores a runner and one that does not.

Shooting percentages are meant to record accuracy and efficiency; and would do so more accurately with that extremely easy fix.

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Totally agree with this. It would also add quality to the game as players would put forth effort in the final seconds of each quarter. While I agree that this stinks and it sucks I also disagree with @djbayko that it’s an indicator of a players head being in the wrong place. I watch quite a bit of NBA and it is a <5% anomaly where a player is actively looking to get off a heave to beat the clock.

This has gone on for 20 years. I’ve told the story here before of a game I attended live where Ricky Davis ran over to Tony Allen at the end of the 1Q during the latters rookie season and coached him up while still on the floor on how to not heave it until after the buzzer.

The heaves and sacrifice bunt are a great parallel.

On a similar note, Cleaning the Glass adjusts its efficiency stats/per100 to not include garbage time stats. For those keeping score, the last 3 quarters of the Celtic game last night have been eliminated

benhogan said:

The heaves and sacrifice bunt are a great parallel.

On a similar note, Cleaning the Glass adjusts its efficiency stats/per100 to not include garbage time stats. For those keeping score, the last 3 quarters of the Celtic game last night have been eliminated

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Are you serious or joking? It was only a 20-pt game at the half and with 4 min left in the 3rd.

If there was .6 seconds on the clock instead of .4, I think that Markkanen shot would have been good and Jazz would have won

View: https://imgur.com/a/a0Yay8d

the moops said:

If there was .6 seconds on the clock instead of .4, I think that Markkanen shot would have been good and Jazz would have won

View: https://imgur.com/a/a0Yay8d

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Poor Jazz fans and Lauri thought it was good for a few seconds too. All the while, the Kings were laughing, knowing that time expired.

De'Aaron Fox is having himself a good season and the Kings may be playing for something for a change.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

Poor Jazz fans and Lauri thought it was good for a few seconds too. All the while, the Kings were laughing, knowing that time expired.

De'Aaron Fox is having himself a good season and the Kings may be playing for something for a change.

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If Sacramento is playing well, the C's must own the rights to the Kings' first-round pick.

Sigh.

HomeRunBaker said:

I’ve heard the revenue retort to my proposal many times. I’ll go on record to say this plays zero factor as each team has gone from filling one row behind their bench with personnel to now sometimes two rows. Move some to a row under the basket if it’s revenue as an obstacle.

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There's still going to be courtside seats, they would just be back 2 or 3 feet (2 if it was a 54 foot court, 3 if it was 56). They might lose a row at the top of the lower section, depending on how the other seats close to the court are configured. And, yes, they could do a much better job with the bench area, something that would eliminate the phalanx of coaches/staff in the second and even third rows.

HomeRunBaker said:

Are you serious or joking? It was only a 20-pt game at the half and with 4 min left in the 3rd.

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joking....I'm long sarcasm after that Celtic performance.

benhogan said:

joking....I'm long sarcasm after that Celtic performance.

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I was gonna say…..that’s 7 possessions which can be erased in 2-3 min.

The Raptor have just missed their first 14 shots and most of them were not even close. Interestingly the Bucks almost as bad.

Leon Trotsky said:

The Raptor have just missed their first 14 shots and most of them were not even close. Interestingly the Bucks almost as bad.

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Bucks 7
Raptors 1
4:51 1Q

Talk about letting a team hang around.

11-10 Raptors 1:50 to go. Teams combined 6-40 from the field. May look at a live Over at end of 1Q (wrong thread I know)

13-12 1st quarter. Incredible.

25 point 1st Quarter. Over/Under is 190.5 at end of 1st.

39-38 at the half. Bucks are shooting a sizzling 32.6% from the field compared to Toronto's 26%. It doesn't even qualify as a rock fight.

Pacers up four with 44 seconds to go and the ball. They turn the ball over twice to Maxey who got free look at the rim and then on the next one he smoked the bunny but Tobi was there to clean it up. OT in Philly.

Edit: The 76ers prevail. Also, in other news tonight, SGA returns but Thunder predictably fall to the Magic in Orlando with Paolo putting up 25 on 8-17 shooting with 8 boards, 7 assists and a steal. I wonder if we see the Magic go on a run as he levels up this season. If some combo of the Raps or Bulls blow it up as rumored, they might even get a shot at the play-in.

What the hell just happened in Toronto

Bucks were up 16 with 1:15 to go.

..and 9 w/30 seconds left.

But Grayson Allen hits a 3 w/10 seconds left in OT to win it for the Bucks....after his cheap shot in regulation opens the door for Toronto to tie it up.

Nets finally lose, beaten by the Bulls.

Not sure how anyone could lose to Westbrook, Schreder and a bunch of G Leaguers but the Heat are about to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

Wild finish in the Pistons - Warriors game. Saddiq Bey hits a 3 with one second on the clock with the game tied at 119. This coming after the Warriors previous possession in which Klay hit a three coming off a screen.

I think that is only the third home loss for the Warriors.

NYCSox said:

Not sure how anyone could lose to Westbrook, Schreder and a bunch of G Leaguers but the Heat are about to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

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The heat are such an odd team. They're slow, not very athletic and dont rebound the ball for shit. But everyone seems hesitant to write them off.

ElUno20 said:

The heat are such an odd team. They're slow, not very athletic and dont rebound the ball for shit. But everyone seems hesitant to write them off.

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They're also an excellent defensive team with one of the best closers in the league, and they're certainly battle tested. They'll make the playoffs and be a pain in the ass for whoever gets them, but they're absolutely not a title contender.

NYCSox said:

Not sure how anyone could lose to Westbrook, Schreder and a bunch of G Leaguers but the Heat are about to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

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Heat was at full strength, too, it appears.

I’m still trying to wrap my mind around the Bucks leading by 21 with the ball and 3:15 left — and still leading by 16 with the ball and 1:19 left — and getting pushed to OT. That has to be an all-time meltdown, right?

Sam Ray Not said:

I’m still trying to wrap my mind around the Bucks leading by 21 with the ball and 3:15 left — and still leading by 16 with the ball and 1:19 left — and getting pushed to OT. That has to be an all-time meltdown, right?

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with 3:22 left and his team up 90-69, Bucks head coach Mike Budenholzer subbed out all of his starters

Toronto guard Fred VanVleet then hit back-to-back three-pointers to make it 90-75 and Budenholzer sent his starters back into the game. The run was on – keyed by a full court press – and the Raptors chipped away at the lead.

“Couple of turnovers trying to inbound the ball against the press," Budenholzer said. "It felt like if we got the ball in we were able to get it across halfcourt and then we had a couple turnovers in the halfcourt that you just can’t have that we’ve got to work on and improve.”

They were still down 11 points with just 43 seconds left when Scottie Barnes made it 97-88. Then, the Bucks couldn’t get the ball in. The turnover led to a Gary Trent Jr. three-point attempt – which he sank despite getting hit below the belt by Allen. Trent Jr. made the free throw (97-92) and then Barnes sunk another layup on the extra possession to make it 97-94.

Toronto’s Pascal Siakam pushed Bobby Portis out of bounds in front of the Bucks bench to force a turnover, and then Trent Jr. hit a step-back three over Brook Lopez with 1.5 seconds left to send the game to overtime.

“Definitely after, hindsight, thinking about it I would do it differently – I wouldn’t take the guys out,” Budenholzer said. “But, up 20, on a back-to-back, you hope that you can finish that out. But a 6-0 run in a matter of 15, 20 seconds, that probably gave them the life to take it all the way down. So, it’s unfortunate and we’d like to be better, including myself.”

1:22 left Milwaukee ball up 16pts (95-79) video

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4K3pecHpek

Sam Ray Not said:

I’m still trying to wrap my mind around the Bucks leading by 21 with the ball and 3:15 left — and still leading by 16 with the ball and 1:19 left — and getting pushed to OT. That has to be an all-time meltdown, right?

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If the Bucks allowed every offensive possession to end in a 24 second violation, the Raptors would have had 25 seconds in total to hit seven 3s to tie the game. That would be an average of 3.5 seconds per possession.

With 1:19 left, and up 6 possessions, allowing every offensive possession to end in a 24-sec violation would have taken up more than two minutes of game clock.

It’s just insane.

They just needed to inbound and keep possession.

And not commit cheap shots.

The non-call on Siakam pushing Portis out of bounds, right in front of the official, was hilariously bad.

shawnrbu said:

Bucks were up 16 with 1:15 to go.

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There really isn’t any more garbage time in this league without rare exceptions. Removing starters with over 3 min and just 7 possessions separating them the way todays game is played is coaching malpractice. Completely unnecessary.

HomeRunBaker said:

There really isn’t any more garbage time in this league without rare exceptions. Removing starters with over 3 min and just 7 possessions separating them the way todays game is played is coaching malpractice. Completely unnecessary.

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The Bucks were actually up 16 with 1:50 left to go. Its still an impressive comeback but its a bit less unlikely with a few more possessions baked in.

This information doesn't change the fact that the Bucks were terrible at closing the game or that Grayson Allen plays a different sport than some of his peers.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

The Bucks were actually up 16 with 1:50 left to go. Its still an impressive comeback but its a bit less unlikely with a few more possessions baked in.

This information doesn't change the fact that the Bucks were terrible at closing the game or that Grayson Allen plays a different sport than some of his peers.

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It was 95 - 79 with 1:15 to go

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

The Bucks were actually up 16 with 1:50 left to go. Its still an impressive comeback but its a bit less unlikely with a few more possessions baked in.

This information doesn't change the fact that the Bucks were terrible at closing the game or that Grayson Allen plays a different sport than some of his peers.

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1:19 Turnover by B. Portis (bad pass, steal by G. Trent) 95-79

Bucks still had ten seconds on the shot clock, too. That's a few steps beyond an "impressive comeback," imo.

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the moops said:

It was 95 - 79 with 1:15 to go

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Ah, that is correct - was misreading the PBP. It was that score for a full 35 seconds too which makes it even more remarkable.

HomeRunBaker said:

There really isn’t any more garbage time in this league without rare exceptions. Removing starters with over 3 min and just 7 possessions separating them the way todays game is played is coaching malpractice. Completely unnecessary.

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You obviously don't spend much time on the game threads.

chilidawg said:

You obviously don't spend much time on the game threads.

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Hahaha I stopped that a couple years ago after one game when everyone was screaming at Brad for leaving the starters in with a 17-pt lead and 5 min to go……as the opposing coach was still making matchup substitutions.

Denver making the OKC game against the Celtics look like a fair fight.

Adding A Gordon and B Brown makes Denver a legit contender?

dhellers said:

Denver making the OKC game against the Celtics look like a fair fight.

Adding A Gordon and B Brown makes Denver a legit contender?

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Gordon is a much better piece when he's the 4th offensive option as opposed to the 2nd. He's 2nd in the league in dunks this year (only behind Giannis), averaging 3 per game (1.7 last year).

Tony C said:

That Nuggets starting 5 is scary good, especially if Murray starts being more consistent off of his injury as he's been pretty up and down. The bench isn't great, but they have to be a slight favorite to come out of the West.

The Clippers are just weird. Love Ty Lue as a coach and they have great depth and 2 stud players. But PG and KL just seem like guys who will test the "you can't just turn it on when you want to" axiom.

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Wouldn’t you want to against what currently looks like best team in the West? Going into the season. the Clips, Warriors, and Nuggets looked like the three conference standard-bearers. Kawhi and PG combining for 9 points on 3-16 fg in a marquee Western Conference matchup is, as you say, just weird.

Tony C said:

That Nuggets starting 5 is scary good, especially if Murray starts being more consistent off of his injury as he's been pretty up and down. The bench isn't great, but they have to be a slight favorite to come out of the West.

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Bruce Brown and KCP were also great additions by them. Both guys that play hard both ways and play well with Jokic. Brown is a hard-cutter to the basket, and there isn't a player who will reward that more than Jokic, and he's taking a career high in threes per game and making 40% of them. KCP is making 48% of his threes this season which is ridiculous.

Denver is playing really well and they've gotten pretty meh performances so far from Murray and MPJ, who are probably their second and third best players, at least on paper. If those guys getting it going, they might destroy everyone else in the West.

HomeRunBaker said:

Totally agree with this. It would also add quality to the game as players would put forth effort in the final seconds of each quarter. While I agree that this stinks and it sucks I also disagree with @djbayko that it’s an indicator of a players head being in the wrong place. I watch quite a bit of NBA and it is a <5% anomaly where a player is actively looking to get off a heave to beat the clock.

This has gone on for 20 years. I’ve told the story here before of a game I attended live where Ricky Davis ran over to Tony Allen at the end of the 1Q during the latters rookie season and coached him up while still on the floor on how to not heave it until after the buzzer.

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I've noticed that Malcolm Brogdan is super careful about getting his heaves up after the clock goes up or passing the ball to someone else to take the heave. I've found this pretty interesting. And it also bit him in the ass a couple of weeks ago when he actually hit one of his heaves.

HomeRunBaker said:

Don’t be getting me excited with talk of altering court dimensions now. I’ve been preaching this on here for two decades. Todays athletes grew out of the 94x50 court many years ago. To me this isn’t extreme but a progressive necessity. 100x54 or even 98x52 would improve the quality and flow of the game.

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Late to this party, but IMO, making the court wider and moving the 3P line back maybe two feet (and eliminate the short corner 3P) might incentivize some different styles of play rather than just check up as many 3P shots as the team possibly can.

Andre Iguodala is apparently alive and cleared to play v Orlando tomorrow night.

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/pointforward/status/1611452443585556481


Wiggins too.

Steph doing well and targeting a return a week from today v. SA.

Sam Ray Not said:

Andre Iguodala is apparently alive and cleared to play v Orlando tomorrow night.

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/pointforward/status/1611452443585556481


Wiggins too.

Steph doing well and targeting a return a week from today v. SA.

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Meanwhile, Myers does it again with Jerome and Lamb. I am convinced that the Steph window looks a lot different without Lacob largely hiring good people and paying up for quality. You are so blessed as a fan this past ~decade.

Watching Doncic move these last two games it seems clear that he’s getting run down whether it be fatigue from his usage or nagging injuries from his usage. If anyone needs an “Embiid 2-week vacation” it’s this guy.