2022-23 NBA Game Thread

HomeRunBaker

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It’s not that simple though. Playing that game destroys your offensive flow which is why some coaches won’t go down this road. The Nets also can continue to use situational substitutions down the stretch of games with these two as they have been this year. Obv not optimal to have two of these players on the same team but not necessarily their undoing either if managed well by Vaughn and his staff.
We saw this tonight when Pop began using take fouls against Steven Adams with 4:53 left and down 3 points. Following each take foul the Spurs proceeded to turn the ball over on their next possession. In the final 4:53 of the game, the Spurs scored a total of 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 5 Turnovers. Herein lies the downside of the intentional take foul.
 

benhogan

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We saw this tonight when Pop began using take fouls against Steven Adams with 4:53 left and down 3 points. Following each take foul the Spurs proceeded to turn the ball over on their next possession. In the final 4:53 of the game, the Spurs scored a total of 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 5 Turnovers. Herein lies the downside of the intentional take foul.
No doubt, defenses are better in the halfcourt, dug in after Free Throws. Especially at the end, at home, in a close game. You're 100% correct there.

That one-game line may have more to do with San Antonio being one of the worst teams in the NBA. Playing without their best offensive players.

Also, Memphis, is the 2nd best team in the NBA record-wise, on a 7-game win streak, was at home & is one of the better defensive teams in the NBA. I imagine Memphis coasted throughout and turned it up over the last 5 minutes of the game. Happens every night in the NBA. I bet Pop is comfortable with his decision since Adams was 3-11 from the FT line. Obviously, it would work better if SA had anyone besides JRich to go to on offense.
If Pop likes it that probably offers further proof that it's the proper strategy


The idea, in Brooklyn's instance (where it makes even more sense), is to take the ball out of the two most efficient offensive NBA players' hands (Kyrie/KD).
Put it in the hands of 2 players who struggle at the line.
AND force a rookie Head Coach to consider removing two of the best NBA defensive players (Simmons/Claxton).

We'll see come the playoffs. I'd be willing to bet teams Hack Clax/Ben in tight games and it works
 

the moops

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We saw this tonight when Pop began using take fouls against Steven Adams with 4:53 left and down 3 points. Following each take foul the Spurs proceeded to turn the ball over on their next possession. In the final 4:53 of the game, the Spurs scored a total of 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 5 Turnovers. Herein lies the downside of the intentional take foul.
I mean, it wasn't as if San Antonio was in some super good offensive flow before they started fouling Adams. From the 9:19 mark until that first take foul on Adams they were 2-9 from the field
 

HomeRunBaker

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I mean, it wasn't as if San Antonio was in some super good offensive flow before they started fouling Adams. From the 9:19 mark until that first take foul on Adams they were 2-9 from the field
Not sure where you got those numbers. In the first 7 min of the 4Q prior to the take foul the Spurs had 15 possessions and scored a FG/FT on 8 of them for 17 points.
 

the moops

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Not sure where you got those numbers. In the first 7 min of the 4Q prior to the take foul the Spurs had 15 possessions and scored a FG/FT on 8 of them for 17 points.
Not sure where you got those numbers. In the first 7 min of the 4Q prior to the take foul the Spurs had 15 possessions and scored a FG/FT on 8 of them for 17 points.
They had 11 points in the first 2:51 of the quarter and then went on a terrible stretch that continued until the end of the quarter. There was nothing magical about the take fouls disrupting their offensive flow - they had no flow from the 9:19 mark onward
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The idea, in Brooklyn's instance (where it makes even more sense), is to take the ball out of the two most efficient offensive NBA players' hands (Kyrie/KD).
Put it in the hands of 2 players who struggle at the line.
AND force a rookie Head Coach to consider removing two of the best NBA defensive players (Simmons/Claxton).

We'll see come the playoffs. I'd be willing to bet teams Hack Clax/Ben in tight games and it works
Ringer article on what it claims might be a "historically great" shooting team. I'm putting it in this thread because (shockingly) it's not about BOS but BRK.

one part:

Brooklyn currently ranks first all time in effective field goal percentage and true shooting percentage, second in 2-point field goal percentage, and is tied for 18th in 3-point percentage. We’re not even at the All-Star break, sure. But Brooklyn’s current effective field goal percentage is slightly ahead of where the 2018 Warriors—which once had the highest effective field goal percentage on record—were at the 40-game mark.​

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2023/1/9/23545605/nets-shooting-kevin-durant-kyrie-irving
 

Sam Ray Not

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Durant, Kyrie, Seth Curry, Mills, Harris, Watanabe, Warren must be the best collection of long-range shooters ever assembled on one team, by a pretty wide margin. All seven have had multiple full seasons over 41% from 3 at high volume, except Watanabe, who's currently a cool .527. Curry and Harris are currently (by career 3FG%) the #1 and #2 most accurate three point shooters in the league since 2005 (both in the top 5 all-time with Steve Kerr, Hubert Davis, and Drazen Petrovic). Even Markieff (.487) and Royce O'Neale (.411) are stroking it this year, which gives them nine marksmen. And Day'Ron Sharpe is 4 of 5 from three for good measure.

In related news, Seth's older brother is either probable or questionable (depending on which source you use) to return for Golden State tonight v. Phoenix. Guessing he gives it a go for at least 15-20 minutes, possibly off the bench, as at the start of the '22 playoffs.
 
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InstaFace

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We saw this tonight when Pop began using take fouls against Steven Adams with 4:53 left and down 3 points. Following each take foul the Spurs proceeded to turn the ball over on their next possession. In the final 4:53 of the game, the Spurs scored a total of 4 points on 1-6 shooting and 5 Turnovers. Herein lies the downside of the intentional take foul.
wait is your point that in order to effect a comeback, you have to make your shots and not turn the ball over a bunch?

Cause I mean, no shit. That's true no matter what your defensive strategy is. But that doesn't argue against take fouls on bad shooters being an effective way to minimize the opponent's points-per-possession while also keeping their time per possession low, giving you a greater number of possessions to try and come back. That the Spurs fucked up the offensive side of the equation doesn't make their defensive strategy wrong.

I guess if your argument is that it deprives you of the chance to get some fast-break points, that could matter for teams that rely on it heavily (such as Boston). But if you're fouling a 40% FT shooter, yielding 0.80 points per defensive possession is pretty good, all things considered (and assuming key players don't foul out in the course of executing it).
 

HomeRunBaker

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wait is your point that in order to effect a comeback, you have to make your shots and not turn the ball over a bunch?

Cause I mean, no shit. That's true no matter what your defensive strategy is. But that doesn't argue against take fouls on bad shooters being an effective way to minimize the opponent's points-per-possession while also keeping their time per possession low, giving you a greater number of possessions to try and come back. That the Spurs fucked up the offensive side of the equation doesn't make their defensive strategy wrong.

I guess if your argument is that it deprives you of the chance to get some fast-break points, that could matter for teams that rely on it heavily (such as Boston). But if you're fouling a 40% FT shooter, yielding 0.80 points per defensive possession is pretty good, all things considered (and assuming key players don't foul out in the course of executing it).
No bc teams rarely get fast break points late in games. The argument, and to me there really isn’t one, is that is affects offensive continuity and rhythm which as I’ve stated prior to yesterday is why we don’t see much of it. If you give up .8 and get back say .6 that is a net loss.
 

InstaFace

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OK. I disagree with that assessment, but it's coherent.

Are there, say, NBA coaches who have publicly stated they don't like to do it because of the impact on offensive continuity and rhythm? Or are we hypothesizing?

I figured the main limiting factor on Hack-a-Shaq and its variations was the prospect of your key players fouling out.
 

the moops

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If there are rarely any fast break points at the end of games and it comes down to a half court offensive slog, why does taking the ball out after a free throw instead of a miss or a make matter?
 

HomeRunBaker

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OK. I disagree with that assessment, but it's coherent.

Are there, say, NBA coaches who have publicly stated they don't like to do it because of the impact on offensive continuity and rhythm? Or are we hypothesizing?

I figured the main limiting factor on Hack-a-Shaq and its variations was the prospect of your key players fouling out.
I’ve heard several say it prior to the rule change when it was a hot topic and anyone who watches that game can see the noticeable difference in the flow. Last nights 4Q literally came to a halt once the Hack-A-Adams began as the Spurs couldn’t even get shots off without turning the ball over…..5 TO in final 5 min. This is consistent with what we’ve seen in the past although not always this extreme.
 

InstaFace

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I’ve heard several say it prior to the rule change when it was a hot topic and anyone who watches that game can see the noticeable difference in the flow. Last nights 4Q literally came to a halt once the Hack-A-Adams began as the Spurs couldn’t even get shots off without turning the ball over…..5 TO in final 5 min.
OK but what's the causality between "Spurs took the ball in after Adams FT makes or misses" and "Spurs turn the ball over in the middle of their half-court offensive action"? They were perturbed or distracted by staring at his tattoos as he prepared to take his shots? Do teams usually have lower offensive success and higher turnovers in the possessions following conceding some FTs? Or is it just something special about Adams, or about hacking?

Or maybe they were just tired at the end of the game, and aren't a good offensive team to begin with. San Antonio ranks 27th in turnovers per game.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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If there are rarely any fast break points at the end of games and it comes down to a half court offensive slog, why does taking the ball out after a free throw instead of a miss or a make matter?
I guess the theory would be that the constant starting and stopping of games while players shoot FTs ruins any kind of flow or rhythm of the hacking team and thus would lead to worse offensive results. The hacked team obviously is shooting FTs so that wouldn't matter.

A quick interweb search suggests to me that no one has looked closely at whether this is true.

As a corollary to this question, I wonder if anyone has looked at how teams do with the first possession of each quarter? If flow/rhythm were a repeating issue, one would think that teams would have a harder time scoring on the first possession out of quarter breaks (when I assume teams generally don't draw up plays to run) than the rest of the game.
 

the moops

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I’ve heard several say it prior to the rule change when it was a hot topic and anyone who watches that game can see the noticeable difference in the flow. Last nights 4Q literally came to a halt once the Hack-A-Adams began as the Spurs couldn’t even get shots off without turning the ball over…..5 TO in final 5 min. This is consistent with what we’ve seen in the past although not always this extreme.
MEM shot 8 free throws from the 9:19 mark to the 4:53 mark. Once they started the hack-a-Adams, MEM shot 7 free throws. I am curious why the 7 free throws at the end of the game stunted the flow of the game, but the 8 before that, in a shorter time period somehow did not.
 

Euclis20

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I'll never understand why Zach Lavine isn't a better player. He's basically a fully realized version of Gerald Green - 6'5 wing athletic enough to win multiple dunk contests, a good enough outside shooter to participate in multiple 3 point contests, and a pretty solid playmaker for his position (4.5 assists per game in the last 4+ seasons). He's a lousy defender, but there's a limit to how bad an uber athletic wing can be on defense (as opposed to an undersized point guard or a slower center). He should be a top 10 player who can look like the best scorer in the league on any given night, not an occasional all-star who can disappear for long stretches and might not even be a top 30 guy. Maybe he's unlocked if he goes to a better team, but he'll be 28 in March, he's in year 9 and already on his second team. He is who he is.
 

benhogan

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MEM shot 8 free throws from the 9:19 mark to the 4:53 mark. Once they started the hack-a-Adams, MEM shot 7 free throws. I am curious why the 7 free throws at the end of the game stunted the flow of the game, but the 8 before that, in a shorter time period somehow did not.
Memphis dug in at the end of a tight game at home against a team they are 100X better. Happens nightly in the NBA

Adam's missing FTs had little impact on the Grizz playing great defense or the Spurs turning the ball over. That's what those teams have done for 2 years now

The bigger point is the Brooklyn Nets are a threat to the C's. Ben Simmons is 1/13 from the FT line over the last 6 weeks. And as @wade boggs chicken dinner has posted the Nets are loaded with historically efficient shooters. It's a no-brainer to foul Ben/Clax (esp. if you're in the penalty).

It was a pretty good strategy for the Celtics in the 116-112 win in Game 4

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey8E6JNT5pc
 
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Kliq

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I'll never understand why Zach Lavine isn't a better player. He's basically a fully realized version of Gerald Green - 6'5 wing athletic enough to win multiple dunk contests, a good enough outside shooter to participate in multiple 3 point contests, and a pretty solid playmaker for his position (4.5 assists per game in the last 4+ seasons). He's a lousy defender, but there's a limit to how bad an uber athletic wing can be on defense (as opposed to an undersized point guard or a slower center). He should be a top 10 player who can look like the best scorer in the league on any given night, not an occasional all-star who can disappear for long stretches and might not even be a top 30 guy. Maybe he's unlocked if he goes to a better team, but he'll be 28 in March, he's in year 9 and already on his second team. He is who he is.
As a rule of thumb, never trust uber athletes who are bad defenders. Feels like it tells you something about them from a mentality perspective, since the only thing stopping a great athlete with size from being a good defender is IQ and effort. LaVine scores a lot of points for mediocre teams for a reason.
 

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Dewayne Dedmon apparently doesn't like Erik Spoelstra or massage guns. DD squabbled with Spo and others on his own bench, threw the device on the court and was ejected with the Heat in a one point game. The Heat are now playing the fourth with no big (Bam out with a wrist contusion).
 

HomeRunBaker

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Dewayne Dedmon apparently doesn't like Erik Spoelstra or massage guns. DD squabbled with Spo and others on his own bench, threw the device on the court and was ejected with the Heat in a one point game. The Heat are now playing the fourth with no big (Bam out with a wrist contusion).
Looks like Dedmon reverted back to his pre-Jehovah’s Witness days.
 

jon abbey

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I don't know the specifics of the situation but it seems absurd to me that Jae Crowder has been sitting home all season while the Suns struggle, 4-14 in their last 18 and starting two guys I never heard of tonight (Landale and Washington Jr.).

Edit: TNT was wrong and Biyombo started over Landale, but still.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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What if I told you…that one of the greatest team performances in NBA history took place in a game that nobody watched. ESPN 30 for 30 presents “40 for 40.”
 

Euclis20

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I don't know the specifics of the situation but it seems absurd to me that Jae Crowder has been sitting home all season while the Suns struggle, 4-14 in their last 18 and starting two guys I never heard of tonight (Landale and Washington Jr.).

Edit: TNT was wrong and Biyombo started over Landale, but still.
The Crowder thing is really ridiculous. It was somewhat funny earlier in the year when it seemed like Phoenix didn't even need him (when they started 15-6, a lot of it without Chris Paul) and even funnier now because they are clearly in need of something. It's also a bit odd that the big 3 and D wing is what literally every team in the league is always looking for and Crowder would seem to be a perfect example of this (and at a reasonable salary), yet he's trying to be on his 7th team in 7 years.
 

Euclis20

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What if I told you…that one of the greatest team performances in NBA history took place in a game that nobody watched. ESPN 30 for 30 presents “40 for 40.”
It is pretty remarkable, but it'd be like watching a baseball team break the record for most walks in a game. It isn't fun for anyone watching, and the only people who won't hate it are rooting for the team that did it.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It is pretty remarkable, but it'd be like watching a baseball team break the record for most walks in a game. It isn't fun for anyone watching, and the only people who won't hate it are rooting for the team that did it.
The massage gun toss might have been the most exciting part of a one point game.

Edit: Good game in Utah with Spida leading the Cavs back to a one point lead with just under seven minutes in the fourth.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Miami 40/40 from the line tonight, led by Butler 23/23. Some kind of record? In a one point game. OKC was 14/21.
Yes. Most FTs in an NBA game without a miss. I posted the Under 223 in gambling thread and got a push…..all I needed was 39-40. Sigh
 

ElUno20

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Double ot as the lakers again, for some reason, forget to get the ball out of Luka's hands
 

Euclis20

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Double ot as the lakers again, for some reason, forget to get the ball out of Luka's hands
It's the most baffling thing ever. They've forced it out of his hands every single possession for the last like 10 minutes of the 4th quarter and OT, except for when they let him hit the game tying 3 at the end of regulation and again in the final minute of OT.
 

Euclis20

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This is a good game in that there are a couple of all-time great players participating and double OT games are good, but everyone is exhausted, the role players have largely been bad, and the officiating has been maybe the worst of any game I've seen this year. Meh.
 

lovegtm

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This is LeBron Cavs supporting cast bad...before the Decision.
The crazy thing is, they drafted Luka 5 (!) years ago, and only gave up one extra 1st to do so, so Stepien considerations haven't been in play for 4 years now.

The Porzingis trade really, really killed them. While Boston has been out here trading near-term 1sts for Horford, White, and Brogdon, the Mavs have been handcuffed by not being able to deal anything until 2025.

Just a really poor use of assets after hitting the jackpot. Makes the contrast with POBOBS really stark.
 

InstaFace

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January 31, 2019: [Porzingis] Traded by the New York Knicks with Trey Burke, Tim Hardaway Jr. and Courtney Lee to the Dallas Mavericks for DeAndre Jordan, Wesley Matthews, Dennis Smith Jr., a 2021 1st round draft pick (Keon Johnson was later selected) and a 2023 1st round draft pick. (Top-10 protected)

July 12, 2019: Signed as a free agent with the Dallas Mavericks.

February 10, 2022: Traded by the Dallas Mavericks with a 2022 2nd round draft pick (Yannick Nzosa was later selected) to the Washington Wizards for Davis Bertans and Spencer Dinwiddie. 2022 2nd-rd pick is DAL own

---

I dunno, you don't think Dallas won that initial trade? It seems at worst neutral to me. In his 3 seasons for which Dallas had him for 2.7 of them, he played 57, 43 and 51 regular-season games, and a full playoff series in each of the first two. They won the bet on his health, acquiring him (as they did) coming off an ACL recovery. He had no particular dropoff in performance level when he was on the court. And most importantly, they traded for him and then were able to re-sign him, so they didn't give up the farm and then have him walk like Kawhi from Toronto.

Losing the #21 pick in 2021 seems like it's probably not the full explanation for Dallas' overall roster woes. I think they just assembled a franken-team that doesn't fit together well.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah I don’t see how the Porzingis trade killed this team as they also received Hardaway in the deal while the only real potential value would be a lottery protected 1st and Matthews/DSJ. They then moved him for Dinwiddie who is a key piece for them. What am I missing here?
 

BigSoxFan

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Yeah I don’t see how the Porzingis trade killed this team as they also received Hardaway in the deal while the only real potential value would be a lottery protected 1st and Matthews/DSJ. They then moved him for Dinwiddie who is a key piece for them. What am I missing here?
I don't think the trade itself killed them, the fact that Porzingis didn't turn into that second fiddle star that they need really is what keeps them in this purgatory. Luka turns 24 next month. There is still plenty of time here but in 2-3 years, he may start to get a wandering eye. At some point, I think they need to do one of those "all the pickz" deals to line up Luka with whatever second star they can find. Wood actually was a good move but they clearly need more in order to move up a level. There just aren't many options for these guys outside of getting really lucky in the 2nd round or something.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't think the trade itself killed them, the fact that Porzingis didn't turn into that second fiddle star that they need really is what keeps them in this purgatory. Luka turns 24 next month. There is still plenty of time here but in 2-3 years, he may start to get a wandering eye. At some point, I think they need to do one of those "all the pickz" deals to line up Luka with whatever second star they can find. Wood actually was a good move but they clearly need more in order to move up a level. There just aren't many options for these guys outside of getting really lucky in the 2nd round or something.
I agree with that but for what they gave up for him I can’t really call it a franchise killing deal. If it wasn’t done the Mavs are in the same spot except they have Matthews instead of Dinwiddie and a limited value future lottery protected pick. Maybe they pick Hyland or Grimes over Keon Johnson in that draft. Either way they aren’t much different without the Porzingis deal.
 

lovegtm

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The opportunity cost isn't just the picks themselves, or the players selected with them; it's encumbering future ones because of Stepien.

Dinwiddie is a nice get; the Celtics got 3 guys better than Dinwiddie using one 1st for each, because they structured the timing better.

I don't think the Porzingis deal was franchise-killing, but it did hurt from a roster-building perspective in a way that doesn't show up when you just look at the picks themselves.

Whenever you are dealing 1sts multiple years out, you need to get serious difference makers in return, or it becomes a lot harder to fill out the roster with high-end role-players.
 

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The crazy thing is, they drafted Luka 5 (!) years ago, and only gave up one extra 1st to do so, so Stepien considerations haven't been in play for 4 years now.

The Porzingis trade really, really killed them. While Boston has been out here trading near-term 1sts for Horford, White, and Brogdon, the Mavs have been handcuffed by not being able to deal anything until 2025.

Just a really poor use of assets after hitting the jackpot. Makes the contrast with POBOBS really stark.
When there is a player as ball dominant as Luka, or Harden with the Rockets before him, things do get wonky which kind of perpetuates the "hero ball" style of play for a team. There are less upper tier free agents that want to sign/re-sign with such players, and the team with the alpha is at a disadvantage in projecting which players via trade or signing will ultimately fit with the ball-dominant player. And when there are multiple players who THINK they deserve the ball a majority of the time, the offense can turn into a slog of "your-turn/my-turn" isolation on alternating possessions. A minor example of this was when Kyrie was ball dominant in his last year with the Cavs and came to the Celtics prepared to emulate the same style, only to play with the up and coming Js who deserved the ball almost or as much as he did.
 

benhogan

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According to the Old Man & the 3 Pod, Dallas screwed up the Brunson negotiations numerous times.
If they have Jalen the Luca On-Off numbers wouldn't be so stark.
Dallas would probably be vying for 1st in the West with Brunson's 22ppg

OTOH, Brad & Co offered up a 12-mth Masterclass on finishing off the roster around the JAYs
Extensions...............A
Trades w/1sts.........A
Unloading players...A
Bargain Signings.....A
HC Hiring.................A (incomplete now)
 

Euclis20

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7 missed calls in the last 2 minutes of Lakers-Dallas. Are there going to be any repercussions, or is that just adequate refereeing?

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35441428/nba-last-two-minute-report-cites-7-missed-calls-lakers-mavs
Yeah that I think was pretty plain to everyone watching (my words last night were "the officiating has been maybe the worst of any game I've seen this year."). It was brutal, but I always hate the two minute reports. It doesn't do anything except cheapen the win for the victors and leave the losers feeling cheated. There's definitely value in transparency (especially for a league that isn't that far removed from a gambling scandal involving referees), but these reports always leave me hollow.