Watch clips from the 80s or 90s or before.. todays players are WAY faster and stronger.. the level of skill overall is also a lot better. It’s easier to see in person just how fast these guys are.. and they’re running for 90 minutesIs soccer now more competitive than it was 30-40 years ago? It seems like a sport whose athletes aren’t necessarily greater than in other eras or bigger and faster like in American football, but as a casual observer, it also seems like Africa and Latin America are sending more players and teams than when some of the old greats were playing, which should favor modern players like Messi in the goat conversation.
I lived in northern New Jersey for a couple years back then, made it over to Giants Stadium a couple times. The place was packed, and as you said, the atmosphere was incredible.This seems like a good place to ask: Did anyone else here get to see the Cosmos of the late seventies play much? I was very young, just 8 or 9, but my dad and I had season tickets and went to every home game, Pele, Beckenbauer, Carlos Alberto, on and on. The atmosphere was incredible, one playoff game specifically is still maybe the most exciting live sporting event I've ever seen.
Yeah, for a sport that relies so much on stamina and fitness, the innovations that have come from better equipment, better nutrition, better data on training, etc. have dramatically changed the game of soccer, perhaps more than any other major sport. Just think about how it wasn't that long ago where basically every player was a smoker; and the difference that has made. Stanley Matthews was playing top flight football into his 50s and won the Balllon d'Or when he was 41, basically because he was the one player who didn't smoke three packs a a day and drink a few pints every night.Watch clips from the 80s or 90s or before.. todays players are WAY faster and stronger.. the level of skill overall is also a lot better. It’s easier to see in person just how fast these guys are.. and they’re running for 90 minutes
Edit: I’d also add that the pitch/field quality overall has gotten a lot better.. there are a lot more soccer only stadia… lot more clubs, lot more academies.
It was only 26 years ago that Wenger showed up in England and blew everyone’s mind with things like stretching, banning after training beers in the players lounge, getting guys to eat a salad instead of pies & chips…now Liverpool employs a fleet of chefs that prepare personalized meals for each player based on dozens of bio-measurements and their current condition. It’s like sci fi compared to what Alan Shearer had available to him.Yeah, for a sport that relies so much on stamina and fitness, the innovations that have come from better equipment, better nutrition, better data on training, etc. have dramatically changed the game of soccer, perhaps more than any other major sport. Just think about how it wasn't that long ago where basically every player was a smoker; and the difference that has made. Stanley Matthews was playing top flight football into his 50s and won the Balllon d'Or when he was 41, basically because he was the one player who didn't smoke three packs a a day and drink a few pints every night.
I was too young for the Cosmos, but ironically in re. this conversation, I did attend the 2008 USMNT/Argentina match at old Giants Stadium that introduced Messi to North America. That was as electric a friendly as I’ve ever attended.I lived in northern New Jersey for a couple years back then, made it over to Giants Stadium a couple times. The place was packed, and as you said, the atmosphere was incredible.
I saw the short-lived and nearly-totally-unlamented Connecticut Bicentennials play in front of a Yale Bowl crowd that was maaaaayybe 3% of capacity. You could not only hear the shouts of players in the field, but conversations on the bench.This seems like a good place to ask: Did anyone else here get to see the Cosmos of the late seventies play much? I was very young, just 8 or 9, but my dad and I had season tickets and went to every home game, Pele, Beckenbauer, Carlos Alberto, on and on. The atmosphere was incredible, one playoff game specifically is still maybe the most exciting live sporting event I've ever seen.
I committed an act of family violence by getting my brother into Everton (sorry man) and footy generally. We grew up watching the Sox, Celtics, Whalers, Bruins, UConn hoops, NFL and college football, etc. He didn’t think much of soccer and had the usual derogatory things to say about it until we went to see Everton play Arsenal in Baltimore in July. He was blown away by the athleticism of the players, the speed of the action, the intensity of some of the contact- we sat right behind a goal, only a few rows back, so that we saw most of the pitch through the mesh of the net. From only a few yards away, the violence in front of goal on a corner is really something- most of what goes on would get you arrested out on the street. His big takeaway was that at an MLB or NFL game the action stopped every few seconds snd everyone spent the game with their faces in their phones, but here, even at a friendly, halfway around the world from these sides home bases, the action was nonstop and the crowd was riveted. Watching the likes of Jesus and Saka going up against, say, Yerry Mina, who would be an elite CB if he could stay healthy but has played fewer than 1/3 available games over the length of his contract , but here was healthy, and at 6’5” with the build of a TE could knock a big, physical forward into the second row with his gigantic ass cheek by boxing out on a cross into the box.Watch clips from the 80s or 90s or before.. todays players are WAY faster and stronger.. the level of skill overall is also a lot better. It’s easier to see in person just how fast these guys are.. and they’re running for 90 minutes
Edit: I’d also add that the pitch/field quality overall has gotten a lot better.. there are a lot more soccer only stadia… lot more clubs, lot more academies.
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The only real argument against Messi is that there are players like Di Stefano, Puskas and Cruyff who were not only the best players of their day, but had a style and influence that really transcended and changed the game. It's hard for to really make that case in a significant way for Messi, other than the fact that he was really good and really famous.
Pele has a global status and enduring legacy that is hard to approach, but his club career is so different than Messi (mainly that he played a million exhibition games against European sides) that it really is foolish to compare them.
Pele is the transcendent cultural icon. The timing of his career with the early years of televised sports fixed him in the world’s
imagination. His figure still shapes how the game is viewed today by billions, directly and indirectly.
Yashin revolutionized goal keeping.
Puskas revolutionized play making.
DiStefano blazed a trailed from South America and vaulted Madrid to the top of the club game, where they still reside today.
Eusebio blazed the trail for African football.
Cruyff was the best player of his era, revolutionized tactics while still a a player, and then overhauled the the club game as a manager & director. No one has had a bigger impact on the sport top to bottom.
Maradona was a supernova, probably the most technically gifted player to ever grace the game.
Ronaldo was the perfect player for 2.5 seasons (1996-1998) before the gods got jealous and cursed his body.
But Messi has dominated the sport since his first great season in 2008-2009, routinely winning trophies against the toughest competition at a time when the global talent pool is deeper and more specialized than ever. He has outlasted his greatest rival, Cristiano Ronaldo, and was almost always his better anyway. Messi’s body of work makes him the best to ever lace up boots.
Lots to unpack here. I think there's a really fun discussion to be had here. I think the first thing we have to distinguish is best career vs. most talented. Best career goes to Messi in pretty much a landslide, although you could make a strong case for Pele, and perhaps others. The most talented discussion gets real interesting because I think even if you're just looking at it that way, you want to qualify it with some accomplishment(s) and/or longevity. IOW, the most talented player to win a UCL/EPL/WC/League Title, and/or most talented player for at least 1-2 seasons.I think it’s really easy to forget how good Messi was because we have watched the slower, more static version for so long now. He, like Maradona, used to regularly dribble 3 and 4 defenders multiple times a match. These days that’s fewer and far between but to my eyes it’s very close between those two among players I’ve seen play and with Maradona I obviously saw him a lot less. I suspect Cruyff belongs in this conversation more than he is but players like him and Pele I can only have seen via highlights so it feels impossible
Pele = GOATPele is the transcendent cultural icon. The timing of his career with the early years of televised sports fixed him in the world’s
imagination. His figure still shapes how the game is viewed today by billions, directly and indirectly.
Rinus Michels, as Ajax manager, & Cruyff, as field general, integrated several contemporary ideas and innovated them into Total Football in late-60s. Different versions of the history give different weight to the individual contributions of Michels and Cruyff, but it’s clear that they needed each other to develop the overall approach and dominate the club game for 8 years, and then Cruyff went to Barca to dominate for another 5 years bringing the same concepts with him.What were Cruyff's innovations as a player? I'm very familiar with him as a manager/philosopher. What were Puskas' innovations?
Thanks for this - never knew there was a Hungarian near the top of the GOAT list.Rinus Michels, as Ajax manager, & Cruyff, as field general, integrated several contemporary ideas and innovated them into Total Football in late-60s. Different versions of the history give different weight to the individual contributions of Michels and Cruyff, but it’s clear that they needed each other to develop the overall approach and dominate the club game for 8 years, and then Cruyff went to Barca to dominate for another 5 years bringing the same concepts with him.
Puskas, who Pele famously called his favorite player, was at the heart of the side decades ahead of its time, the Hungarian national team from the mid-40s to mid-50s. They played a fluid style with what we’d now call a false 9, which allowed Puskas to invent the modern CAM role where he averaged a goal a match and created many more. The Hungarians blew minds wherever they played and more or less single handedly embarrassed the English into modernizing their approach after 1953’s 6-3 beat down. He defected from Hungary in 1958, hooked up with DiStefano at Madrid, and formed maybe the most devastating attacking duo the sport has ever seen.
You'd be hard-pressed to find a bigger fan of Cruyff than I am.Pele = GOAT
1,281 goals in 1,363 games*, 3 World Cups, the Ambassador of Soccer.
*per this B/R article, which lists Cruyff as their #1.
I think the thing that most sets Messi apart is that he's good at pretty much everything.. except heading the ball I guess.I think it’s really easy to forget how good Messi was because we have watched the slower, more static version for so long now. He, like Maradona, used to regularly dribble 3 and 4 defenders multiple times a match. These days that’s fewer and far between but to my eyes it’s very close between those two among players I’ve seen play and with Maradona I obviously saw him a lot less. I suspect Cruyff belongs in this conversation more than he is but players like him and Pele I can only have seen via highlights so it feels impossible
Obligatory:I think the thing that most sets Messi apart is that he's good at pretty much everything.. except heading the ball I guess.
His dribbling, passing, goal scoring, free kicks, etc are all world class.
What I most appreciate about him is how many goals he scores sort of 'off-time'.. or like a jazz drummer.. so many of his goals go in and the keeper is just completely flat footed and doesn't even move. Messi struck/strikes the ball either right after or before most players would strike it..
Not sure it that can be classified as a signature or a style, but he's pretty much the only one I've seen do it...or at least consistently. Not sure if he changed the game in any way, but he definitely dominated it for quite a while.
Oh dang, I always thought of Total Football being epitomized by the terrific Dutch Euro winners of the late 80s. I had forgotten it went back into the 70s. Thanks.Rinus Michels, as Ajax manager, & Cruyff, as field general, integrated several contemporary ideas and innovated them into Total Football in late-60s. Different versions of the history give different weight to the individual contributions of Michels and Cruyff, but it’s clear that they needed each other to develop the overall approach and dominate the club game for 8 years, and then Cruyff went to Barca to dominate for another 5 years bringing the same concepts with him.
Puskas, who Pele famously called his favorite player, was at the heart of the side decades ahead of its time, the "Mighty Magyars" Hungarian national team from the mid-40s to mid-50s. They played a fluid style with what we’d now call a false 9, which allowed Puskas to invent the modern CAM role where he averaged a goal a match and created many more. The Hungarians blew minds wherever they played and more or less single-handedly embarrassed the English into modernizing their approach after 1953’s 6-3 beat down. He defected from Hungary in 1956, hooked up with DiStefano at Madrid, and formed maybe the most devastating attacking duo the sport has ever seen.
part of the legend is just how much of an everyman he is. He looks like a teacher or an accountant (some of my favorite people are teachers and accountants, so don't @ me, but as much as I love you you don't look like the dominant athlete of your time).
The old National Lampoon magazine had a Sports issue in the mid 70's, in which they gave spoof histories of the major sports. My alcoholic, degenerate gambler Uncle Tommy would get comics for me when he bought his Oui and High Society mags, and he'd get me National Lampoon also.* I found this issue online during the Winter Olympics because I wanted to show my wife & kid the BOBSLEDDING article which started: "If you own a roller coaster, and are careful not to let anyone else use it, you are probably the second or third best roller coaster racer in the world. Similarly, if you own a bobsled run and a bobsled...."Also, RE: Cruyff, you can't discount the Cruyff Turn. You can't say he invented it because it's a dribble move, so who knows, but he undeniably popularized it at the 1974 World Cup. In terms of influence on a sport, it's like if the Euro Step was credited to a basketball player named John Euro.
Saw them a couple of times as a little kid in the late '70s at Tampa Stadium vs the Rowdies. Big crowds, tons of excitement. Was the playoff game the 1978 Soccer Bowl? I remember watching that on TV with my dad, sold out Giants stadium, Rodney Marsh couldn't go for the Rowdies so Cosmos squeaked out the win. And then like a year or two later nobody cared about soccer anymore.This seems like a good place to ask: Did anyone else here get to see the Cosmos of the late seventies play much? I was very young, just 8 or 9, but my dad and I had season tickets and went to every home game, Pele, Beckenbauer, Carlos Alberto, on and on. The atmosphere was incredible, one playoff game specifically is still maybe the most exciting live sporting event I've ever seen.
The interesting flip side of this, however, is that other players seem much more likely - at least based on accumulated anecdotal observation - to have grown up idolizing Ronaldo.part of the legend is just how much of an everyman he is. He looks like a teacher or an accountant (some of my favorite people are teachers and accountants, so don't @ me, but as much as I love you you don't look like the dominant athlete of your time).
He is short, he does not appear athletic, although he was capable of blistering sprint speed at his peak. More than that, with his facial features and body language, he's got this Forrest Gump, just-kinda-here affect. He can look pissed off when he's competing, but even that has a kind of endearing quality. More Gretzky than Bird, attitude-wise.
One of the reasons the Messi vs Ronaldo comparison has festered over the years, because Ronaldo is the opposite, if you asked an AI to build "best footballer in the world" it would come out as Ronaldo, complete with the cut muscles, 2% body fat, chiseled abs, fragrance-model good looks, and supreme-asshole personality.
That shouldn't matter re: GOAT conversation, but it does. People like Messi.
Yeah that’s what I meant.. when challenged he’s not going to get there like Ronaldo. When I think of someone who dominated in the air it’s him. Messi is of course very good at using his head .. he’s just not tall enough to out jump his defender.
I actually think that clip is cut pretty favorably for England (and the English narrator is good), but this 15 minute cut makes the different much more clear. And then there’s the full match…Following that Hungary 6 -3 link is also highly recommended. You'd think the difference between the "futuristic" Hungary and England would have dissipated over 70 years and it would all just look vaguely old timey, but even with the relatively short highlights you can see the Hungarians just doing more stuff that reads as modern/modernish.
I went back and watched some highlights just to refresh my memory. Anything from the 30s is barely watchable, but when you turn on Pele highlights, he really does look like a modern player, with tight control, excellent dribbling, passing, balance, and finishing.The interesting flip side of this, however, is that other players seem much more likely - at least based on accumulated anecdotal observation - to have grown up idolizing Ronaldo.
I think Messi's talents are actually very hard for other players to relate to or imagine themselves having: The thought process is sort of like "What if I had God-like ability to manipulate the ball with my left foot and was also the quickest person with the ball anybody has ever seen?" Cristiano is actually much more relatable as a player because its more like, "What if I was just an excellent athlete, an excellent striker of the ball, and supremely competitive, so that I became really really good at scoring goals?"
No, it was an earlier playoff game that same season, the quarterfinals. The odd format they used back then was one game at the lower seeded team, then one game at the higher seeded team. If they split the two games, they played a 'mini-game' right then to decide it.Saw them a couple of times as a little kid in the late '70s at Tampa Stadium vs the Rowdies. Big crowds, tons of excitement. Was the playoff game the 1978 Soccer Bowl? I remember watching that on TV with my dad, sold out Giants stadium, Rodney Marsh couldn't go for the Rowdies so Cosmos squeaked out the win. And then like a year or two later nobody cared about soccer anymore.
And then everyone went to Studio54. Those were the days!No, it was an earlier playoff game that same season, the quarterfinals. The odd format they used back then was one game at the lower seeded team, then one game at the higher seeded team. If they split the two games, they played a 'mini-game' right then to decide it.
NY had the best record ever in the league that year at 24-6 with a +49 goal differential, and drew Minnesota in the quarters. Somehow Minnesota scored early and just kept scoring and they won the first game 9-2 (!!!), Alan Willey scored five goals. So the return match was the game I went to, NY won 4-0, so an immediate mini-game, scoreless, shootout. Their shootout format was the player starts at midfield and dribbles in, and the goalie can come out if they want, and the entire stadium was standing on their seats, 77,000 people. NY won 2-1, advanced, and ended up winning the Soccer Bowl as you said.
http://www.nasl.com/news/2015/07/30/throwback-thursday--minnesota-kicks-alan-willey-scores-five-goals-against-cosmos-in-playoff-match
Thanks for sharing that. A big advantage for the Hungarian team of that era was that they wore custom-made boots from a Budapest cobbler that basically pioneered a more modern shoe that every team would soon adopt. The match against England in 1953 is one of the most significant matches in world history; England hadn't lost a home game since 1949 and basically had a massive sense of entitlement that since they invented the game, they were surely the finest practitioners of the game and had the best tactics. The humiliation not only sparked English changes, but modernized world football as the game had so much hype around it and the result was so shocking that everyone took notice. Hungary's loss in the 1954 World Cup Final to West Germany is considered one of the biggest upsets in World Cup History.Rinus Michels, as Ajax manager, & Cruyff, as field general, integrated several contemporary ideas and innovated them into Total Football in late-60s. Different versions of the history give different weight to the individual contributions of Michels and Cruyff, but it’s clear that they needed each other to develop the overall approach and dominate the club game for 8 years, and then Cruyff went to Barca to dominate for another 5 years bringing the same concepts with him.
Puskas, who Pele famously called his favorite player, was at the heart of the side decades ahead of its time, the "Mighty Magyars" Hungarian national team from the mid-40s to mid-50s. They played a fluid style with what we’d now call a false 9, which allowed Puskas to invent the modern CAM role where he averaged a goal a match and created many more. The Hungarians blew minds wherever they played and more or less single-handedly embarrassed the English into modernizing their approach after 1953’s 6-3 beat down. He defected from Hungary in 1956, hooked up with DiStefano at Madrid, and formed maybe the most devastating attacking duo the sport has ever seen.
I was watching video compilations of some Messi goals yesterday.. and one thing that was very evident is how ridiculous those Barcelona teams were at passing in the box. Messi constantly passes and runs into an open position and the whole team is looking to do 1-2s.I went back and watched some highlights just to refresh my memory. Anything from the 30s is barely watchable, but when you turn on Pele highlights, he really does look like a modern player, with tight control, excellent dribbling, passing, balance, and finishing.
When I watch CR7, I see an otherworldly dribbler, with insane balance, speed, strength, and striking ability. What stands out from his early days compared to Messi and Mbappe though, is how the latter 2 are more direct. And really, that's what separates Messi from a lot of these others guys as @Morgan's Magic Snowplow alludes to.
Messi has spent most of his career fooling on defenders with simple cutbacks, feints, and of course, caños (nutmegs). He doesn't use a flurry of stepovers, he just goes around you in the most efficient way possible. Mbappe shares some of that mentality, but his blistering speed just puts every other player I can remember in a fight for 2nd.
Edit: One other thing that I think Messi is underrated for is his passing. He's leaps and bounds better than CR7 at passing and obviously a lot more willing. Mbappe seems to be unselfish enough to be more well-rounded than CR7 too if he chooses to continue down that path.
The Messi highlights are packed with tap in goals he created for himself or his teammates. It’s uncanny. His ability to manipulate space, eliminate defenders, and generate so many simple roll-it-in-the-next finishes is insane.I was watching video compilations of some Messi goals yesterday.. and one thing that was very evident is how ridiculous those Barcelona teams were at passing in the box. Messi constantly passes and runs into an open position and the whole team is looking to do 1-2s.
Imagine saying this as a Spurs fan and watching Harry Kane...What makes Messi unique is that his game is not just about goals. He's simultaneously been the best goal-scorer of his era and the best creative/passing midfielder of his era. Unlike most of the other great scorers, Messi can dominate games from midfield without scoring - he's literally off the charts in all the ball-progression/chance creation stats. Messi is what you get if you combine Ronaldo's goal-scoring and Xavi's passing into the same player. That should be impossible -- indeed, nobody else has come close to replicating it.
Actually this really proves my point. Kane has become a very good creative passer for a striker but he doesn't do possession-oriented midfield tasks like passing and ball progression in the way Messi does. Kane is at 3.58 progressive passes/90 in the last year--very good for a striker--but Messi is at 9.77. Kane completes 1.39 passes into the penalty area per 90, Messi does 4.97. Messi plays about 60-65 passes per 90, Kane about 25.Imagine saying this as a Spurs fan and watching Harry Kane...