Celtics vs. Nets, Round 1 Discussion
- Thread starter tims4wins
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Drummond - Theis
KD - Al
Brown - Tatum
Curry - Jaylen
KI - Marcus
That's a big advantage for Jaylen.
Alternatively, I guess they could move KD to Tatum, Brown to Brown, and Curry on Al.
But who knows, maybe Kyrie will try to put himself on one of the Jays.
I like to do all the player-against-player ranking stuff too…..
But also important to remember, in basketball particularly, the total isn’t always the same as the sum of its parts.
Sometimes it’s better to just look at the overall product, especially on D. There is fit, coaching, effort, etc that also matters.
Obviously there are complicating factors with full time KD/Kyrie (not to mention playoff level minutes) and no Timelord to start.
But it’s somewhat reassuring to me that the Celtics over the past 30-40 games have been MUCH better than the Nets.
But also important to remember, in basketball particularly, the total isn’t always the same as the sum of its parts.
Sometimes it’s better to just look at the overall product, especially on D. There is fit, coaching, effort, etc that also matters.
Obviously there are complicating factors with full time KD/Kyrie (not to mention playoff level minutes) and no Timelord to start.
But it’s somewhat reassuring to me that the Celtics over the past 30-40 games have been MUCH better than the Nets.
Great point. Individual matchups/talent do not account for the Celtics cohesiveness advantage as a unit. The other thing is that the Nets really lack a second wing defender so finding matchup advantages should be a 48 minute drain on the Nets. Tatum had 50+ against our one game against this lineup.
On NBC series preview, Mannix said that he's hearing from people out of JT's camp that he really wanted BRK.
I'm not aware of any bad blood between Kyrie and Tatum, so this must be about JT wanting to prove himself against the biggest star in the conference.
Isn't Mannix the reporter who came out and said he'd heard Horford was unvaccinated -- after Al had publicly said he was vaxxed?
Sorry yes you are correct - it's about him measuring up against KD. I should have added that.
You're correct too but I wouldn't be shocked if JT really wanted to play KD given what he's said about KD in a couple of podcasts (Draymond's and Reddick's) and given that by all reports, JT really wants to win the MVP next year and a great way to show that JT's on the top level is to take down KD.
Tatum says that he’s still close to Kyrie and that they talk fairly regularly and talks about how much he’s learned from him.
Which means, yeah, it’s probably not bad blood but that Tatum wants the challenge to step up to. Which, of course, is awesome.
BTW, JB also said that he's gotten closer with KI lately as KI has been "hitting him up" to talk recently.
"Off the court, me and Kyrie might have started off with a lot of bumps in the road," Brown told Chin during NBC Sports Boston's Celtics Playoff Preview Special. "But as of lately, Kyrie is somebody that I've connected with. Somebody that I call a friend, a brother. Somebody that calls me to pick my brain at this point.
"It wasn't like that when we played together. We bumped heads a lot. But it's funny now in hindsight. Kyrie, he talks to me, hits me up all the time and our relationship has grown a lot since then."
Source.
Uh yeah, so if anyone is getting elevated by the Matchup it's Horford. We'll see if a less tightly called game helps Drummond, but he's been working guys on the boards.
45 minutes for Tatum; 41 for Al; 40 for JB. I'd like to see Ime find a way to get those numbers down a bit. Tatum looked very gassed until those final two possessions.
White has to take his game up a notch; he had very few positive plays all game.
I'd love to see more time with Jaylen on Kyrie; I thought he did a better job than anyone on him today.
A lot of front rim shots early for JB, DW, and GW. Perhaps some nerves early?
White has to take his game up a notch; he had very few positive plays all game.
I'd love to see more time with Jaylen on Kyrie; I thought he did a better job than anyone on him today.
A lot of front rim shots early for JB, DW, and GW. Perhaps some nerves early?
Maybe this will be controversial, but the guy who would have worn the goat horns in this one had Tatum not hit the layup at the buzzer was… Jayson Tatum. Just a terrrible 4th quarter from him until the final possession. He went 44 minutes in this game and was either gassed or rattled and in his own head. He was a big part of the Celtics blowing the 11 point lead at both ends of the floor.
He redeemed himself with excellent D on Durant on Brooklyn’s final possession and then hitting the layup. His final line was 31 points on 9 of 18 from the field, plus 8 assists, but I believe he was at 29 points and 8 assists at the end of the third. In addition to doing nothing useful offensively in the quarter, he played some turnstile D.
The Celtics who battled in the 4th and would not allow this game be lost were Marcus Smart, Al Horford, and Jaylen Brown.
Smart missed the early part of the 4th due to foul trouble but came back in with the motor and compete level. And the people who say he shoots too much should take note of the fact that in a good shooting night for him (20 points, 4 of 9 from three), he passed up a buzzer beater attempt to get it to Tatum for the layup. Smart finished with 20 points and 6 assists, including an offensive explosion for 11 points early in the third quarter, including stealing an inbounds pass off a Celtic made basket and dunking. As the Celtics offense started to devolve into panicked hero ball in the 4th, Smart started driving and drawing fouls.
Horford had a game that has to be on his short list for best as a Celtic. 20 points, 15 rebounds in 41 minutes. Shot 8 of16 13 from the field, 2 for 2 from three, and played fantastic defense, especially down the stretch. Kyrie destroyed the Celtics in the 4th, but Al shut him down a couple of times.
Jaylen despite being whacked in the face and bleeding from his nose, had an extra gear in the 4th that the Nets could not match. He finished with 23 points on 9 of 19 but was the best Celtic at getting to the hoop late. I don’t think the Celtics recognized quickly enough that none of the Nets were going to stop him and didn’t try to exploit the matchup enough.
Ultimately, the Celtics won this with their front line depth. There isn’t a Smart and isn’t a Horford on the Nets, so even though Kyrie and Durant had the better of Tatum and Brown, it wasn’t enough.
It is also worth noting, though, that the Nets bench was better than the Celtics bench. 30 points, led by Dragic (14) and Claxton (13). The Celtics got 17, but only White was really a positive contributor. Grant was a -17 in 21 minutes and missed all 4 of his threes. The Nets are going to let him bomb away until he starts hitting.
Well, game 2 on Wednesday night.
Edit: Fixed Al's shot total, thanks @A Bad Man.
Edit 2: Here was Tatum's 4th quarter:
Edit 3:
Top scorers:
He redeemed himself with excellent D on Durant on Brooklyn’s final possession and then hitting the layup. His final line was 31 points on 9 of 18 from the field, plus 8 assists, but I believe he was at 29 points and 8 assists at the end of the third. In addition to doing nothing useful offensively in the quarter, he played some turnstile D.
The Celtics who battled in the 4th and would not allow this game be lost were Marcus Smart, Al Horford, and Jaylen Brown.
Smart missed the early part of the 4th due to foul trouble but came back in with the motor and compete level. And the people who say he shoots too much should take note of the fact that in a good shooting night for him (20 points, 4 of 9 from three), he passed up a buzzer beater attempt to get it to Tatum for the layup. Smart finished with 20 points and 6 assists, including an offensive explosion for 11 points early in the third quarter, including stealing an inbounds pass off a Celtic made basket and dunking. As the Celtics offense started to devolve into panicked hero ball in the 4th, Smart started driving and drawing fouls.
Horford had a game that has to be on his short list for best as a Celtic. 20 points, 15 rebounds in 41 minutes. Shot 8 of
Jaylen despite being whacked in the face and bleeding from his nose, had an extra gear in the 4th that the Nets could not match. He finished with 23 points on 9 of 19 but was the best Celtic at getting to the hoop late. I don’t think the Celtics recognized quickly enough that none of the Nets were going to stop him and didn’t try to exploit the matchup enough.
Ultimately, the Celtics won this with their front line depth. There isn’t a Smart and isn’t a Horford on the Nets, so even though Kyrie and Durant had the better of Tatum and Brown, it wasn’t enough.
It is also worth noting, though, that the Nets bench was better than the Celtics bench. 30 points, led by Dragic (14) and Claxton (13). The Celtics got 17, but only White was really a positive contributor. Grant was a -17 in 21 minutes and missed all 4 of his threes. The Nets are going to let him bomb away until he starts hitting.
Well, game 2 on Wednesday night.
Edit: Fixed Al's shot total, thanks @A Bad Man.
Edit 2: Here was Tatum's 4th quarter:
- 11:18: missed 3, Celtics up 9
- 10:36: fouled by Kyrie, hits both free throws, Celtics up 9
- 7:47: misses a floater, Nets up 2
- 6:51: bad pass, stolen by Bruce Brown, Nets up 4
- 6:31: blocks a Kyrie 3-point attempt, Nets up 2
- 5:48: fouls Claxton for an and-one, Nets up 4
- 5:16: misses a layup, Nets up 5
- 0:00: hits layup as time expires, Celtics up 1
Edit 3:
Top scorers:
- Nets 39 (Kyrie)
- Cetics 31 (Tatum)
- Nets 62 (Kyrie, Durant)
- Celtics 54 (Tatum, Brown)
- Nets 76 (Kyrie, Durant, Dragic)
- Celtics 74 (Tatum, Brown, Horford)
- Celtics 94 (Tatum, Brown, Horford, Smart)
- Nets 89 (Kyrie, Durant, Dragic, Claxton)
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It seems pretty clear that the Nets are a much better defensive unit with Claxton as Drummond really struggles with the speed of the game. I think we’ll see less of Andre and more small-ball with Durant at the 5 that they’ve used a little bit down the stretch.
I think so. There was minimal (if any) small ball with Durant at the 5 today. I think the problem with that (Durant at 5) is that it means playing Bruce Brown as the power forward.
The board battle will get even sillier, too, but it might be the lesser of two evils for BKN.
I would guess that less Drummond will mean less Theis/more GW. I think that is OK for the Celtics. Theis doesn't offer much in this series, and Grant, his cold-shooting today aside, can.
I still can’t believe that KD shot when the game was tied at 109. Appeared to hit the front rim, bounced up and goes in.
My overall outlook after this one is very positive. I'd feel differently if Tatum's layup had been a tad late. But Kyrie exploded in the 4th and the Celtics withstood that. The Nets were up by 5 with 4:18 to go, up by 3 with 45.9 to go, and up by one in the closing seconds and the Celtics pulled it out anyway.
The knock on this team was lack of composure down the stretch, they showed some of that in the early and mid 4th quarter, but they pulled it together late.
They should take confidence from: 1) the win, especially with Tatum off form in the 4th; 2) the leadership of their 2 most experienced players, Horford and Smart; 3) The Nets did not look like a team that can keep Brown away from the basket late, an option the Celtics could have gone to more than they did.
Marcus Smart is also the closest we have to Yogi Berra:
View: https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1515828053611626498?s=20&t=uU_-iJpsaS0Npc1AiozRrA
Jay King: Marcus Smart said he tells teammates just to cut when he has the ball: “When you think I don’t see you, that’s when I see you the most.”
The knock on this team was lack of composure down the stretch, they showed some of that in the early and mid 4th quarter, but they pulled it together late.
They should take confidence from: 1) the win, especially with Tatum off form in the 4th; 2) the leadership of their 2 most experienced players, Horford and Smart; 3) The Nets did not look like a team that can keep Brown away from the basket late, an option the Celtics could have gone to more than they did.
Marcus Smart is also the closest we have to Yogi Berra:
View: https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1515828053611626498?s=20&t=uU_-iJpsaS0Npc1AiozRrA
Jay King: Marcus Smart said he tells teammates just to cut when he has the ball: “When you think I don’t see you, that’s when I see you the most.”
Its remarkable how closely matched these teams were for game one. The composition of scoring is very different for each club but aside from shooting, both teams went to the line 24 times, both had 12 steals and even turnovers were pretty close.
I hope the predictions of a five game series are still accurate but this feels like its going the distance, especially after that game.
I hope the predictions of a five game series are still accurate but this feels like its going the distance, especially after that game.
That game was extremely intense, especially at the beginning. I have to think that affects the younger Celtics more than it does Durant or Kyrie. Therefore, advantage Celtics as they get more comfortable.
Certainly possible. But I came away thinking that the Celtics can clean up a few things and get better, and I am not sure if Brooklyn can do the same.
Edit: The Celtics might also have shown some struggles early with the long layoff between games. I picked Celtics in 6, and I would not change to 5 but I feel more confidenct about the 6.
Prolly more white, smart, brown, Tatum too. Which paired with al is very switch and tough on the guards.
Durant can shoot better but other than that (or Simmons coming in) Brooklyn is pretty close to their best.
Celtics can improve upon a lot more.
Celtics can improve upon a lot more.
I hope you are correct but the Nets coaching/players will adjust too. These are veterans and they know what works against the Cs defense and will push things there.
In short, I am prepared for more games like this one. I hope I am wrong and they adjust and roll over them.
I didn’t think I cared *that* much about this series, but man, when Tatum hit that buzzer beater I let out a barbaric roar that shocked me. I think I may have still have sports PTSD from Kyrie’s 3 in Game 7 of the 2016 Finals — a deep wound that must have been partly re-opened when Kyrie hit the same shot in nearly the exact same situation tonight. Chances of those last three possessions going exactly as they had to were … what, 5%? Just incredible stuff.
Is it recency bias to think this might be the biggest first game of the opening round of thr playoffs in NBA history? Normally, first round matchups don’t involve 2 of the 3 conference favorites, with legit championship aspirations … and then you throw in all the obvious player narratives, and the fact that the winner probably becomes a ~70% favorite to win the series, and Boston v. NYC … then the specifics of the game, which was an instant classic. Even Sam Ray Not-ette, who I’m not sure could not tell Jayson from Jaylen before the game, was jumping for joy at the end.
Is it recency bias to think this might be the biggest first game of the opening round of thr playoffs in NBA history? Normally, first round matchups don’t involve 2 of the 3 conference favorites, with legit championship aspirations … and then you throw in all the obvious player narratives, and the fact that the winner probably becomes a ~70% favorite to win the series, and Boston v. NYC … then the specifics of the game, which was an instant classic. Even Sam Ray Not-ette, who I’m not sure could not tell Jayson from Jaylen before the game, was jumping for joy at the end.
I think we're a game or two away from Kyrie imploding and demanding to guard Tatum. Despite his production, I thought he looked a bit rattled.
C's in four still seems reasonable to me.
C's in four still seems reasonable to me.
Maybe the most overlooked contribution to the Cs' win was KI's elbow to JB's nose (not sure why it wasn't at least reviewed) that lead to JB bleeding from his nose.
The trainers having to work on JB's bleeding gave the Cs a blow and I think really helped JT as he was able to move to his feet on defense forcing KD to put up his last heave.
Amazing win.
I buy that. Although in theory that rest should have given similar defensive energy to the Nets — who allowed Jaylen to waltz right to the rim after the Kyrie 3.
I was thinking this too in the first quarter. Irving and Durant were casually tossing in free throws and the Celts were missing them. They just seemed wound a bit tighter than the vets on Brooklyn.
BRK was defending the 3P line and doing anything not to foul. Pretty typical of a team up 3 in the last minute to give up an easy 2.
That was on Durant, who was [sort of] covering Tatum. He was caught ball watching and Tatum cut right behind him for the layup. Kyrie can't possibly be expected to provide much resistance in the paint against a skilled scorer who has at least a half a foot on him (and a head of steam).
Yeah.. Kyrie's man was actually out on the three point line. He cheated down into the lane to try and keep anyone from going to the rim. Didn't help the Nets either that two players flew past Smart on the pump fake leaving the other three Nets to guard five.
I think this is possible.. but the C's were also a few good possessions away from winning by ten as well. A lot of things had to go right today for the Nets to get it close late. Hopefully the C's also chill out a bit in game 2 and hit some more wide open shots in the first half.. and also a couple fewer layups.
This is right. The Nets defended their asses off all game as myself and @Cellar-Door have been talking about when people say they are an awful defensive team. They absolutely are not. We have a dogfight on our hands here.
After JB passed to Smart, he relocated to the top of the key. KD switched on to him otherwise JB has a wide-open 3P. JT cutting was someone else's responsibility, although since Brown and Claxton committed to Smart, the Cs at that point were basically playing 5 on 3.
They will try to adjust but I am not sure how much more they have in the arsenal. Kyrie won't shoot as well as he did, although Durant shooting better will offset that. They got strong games out of Dragic and Claxton, maybe that will continue. I don't know what they do to make themselves better.
Whereas I see they Ceitics as having a lot they can clean up execution wise, and they can be a little more confident that they can handle those late and close moments.
But we shall see - games 2 and 3 will reval a lot about what Brooklyn does or does not have in the tank.
BRK tries hard on defense but they just don't have the length on defense other than KD. Claxton helps a lot but if he can't hit his FTs he might get fouled off the court if the series becomes tight.
I think BRK other than KD played really good on offense and BOS other than Horford didn't play great on offense.
You raise an interesting point. Taking game one should, in theory, help the less experienced (though they do have plenty of playoff run) Celtics settle down going forward. It definitely felt like there were sequences where the Nets successfully mucked up Boston's sets and it affected them for a while after on both ends of the court.
I know this stuff ranges into areas we can't but measure but KD and Kyrie have each won a ring. At the very least, this series has a different meaning for them than it does Boston. Maybe that doesn't mean much or has a nebulous impact. However I think the players with rings have an advantage of sorts not just with experience but with the stakes overall.
The thing with Durant is he’ll certainly have games where he’ll shoot better or be a more dominant offensive force, but it’s not like he was missing a lot of easy shots or anything. He got a steady diet of Jaylen, Tatum and Horford guarding him and making life difficult.
Kyrie and KD seemed completely unflappable but the Celtics' main guys have a lot of playoff experience. In hindsight, the Nets' biggest mistake on the last possession was not letting Marcus take that three. Claxton and Bruce Brown completely sold out closing out on Smart which could be read as a lack of experience/composure
yeah, they're mediocre. HOWEVER... they are exploitable by size, the Celtics were inconsistent about exploiting it. Every time they go to that 3 guard lineup the Celtics need to drive Tatum or Brown to the rim over and over, if they don't score or get fouled, they set up open shots or putbacks when Drummond has to rotate to protect the rim. One reason the final play going without a TO was smart is that was a nightmare lineup for BKN to defend with even for 12 seconds... KD is good on ball, but get him off-ball on the perimeter and he's less effective, Kyrie is also not good offball and gives up a ton of size, Dragic is a massive negative, Claxton is solid and Brown is okay on-ball but undersized.
Jaylen went right at Dragic forcing Brown to double all the way at the baseline, Kyrie had to cover the pass to White, Claxton was looking to keep Horford from the rim, KD was hedging between Tatum and helping on Jaylen as Brown fell off. Nobody was on Smart. Jaylen made the pass, both Claxton and Brown closed out, leaving a bad spot of Kyrie/KD/Dragic against 4 players... BUT both left their feet, so Dragic stepped up, KD chose Brown, leaving Tatum to cut right behind him, putting Kyrie as the only rim protector (and even he was hedging because White was open for 3.
Part of that is a scramble, part of it is that they have too many small guys on the floor.
Except in the high-leverage moments when Kyrie let players blow right past him for layups and dunks. They have defensive talent in Brown, Durant, and Claxton, but they also have a ton of holes and they're not very deep, which got exposed several times tonight. The Celtics beat them in points in the paint 56-32 and outrebounded them 43-29. Neither of those stats are flukey considering the rosters for both teams and how small the Nets are. Less consistent stats - FG%/Turnovers - both went the Nets way tonight.
Oh my god, please do this Nash! I would love to see Irving-Brown-Mills (or Dragic)-Curry-Durant vs. Smart-White-Brown-Tatum-Horford. The Nets would get crushed on the boards and the Celtics would score even more easily in the paint.
They tried hard. But it seemed the Celtics had about at least a dozen more "easy" shots.
They may not be awful on defense, but they are not nearly as good as their opponent in this round.
There might be a flip side to that that was on display this afternoon. If your name is Al Horford, you have 14 years in the league. You've played 124 playoff games, reached the ECF 3 times, but never gone any further. And you might think that this is your last, best, chance at a ring. And that might have an impact on your leadership and play.
Yes, there is more the Celtics can do here. Early in the third quarter, there was a play where a Celtic drove and swung it to Horford in the corner. Horford was covered by... the 6'2" Seth Curry. And Horford did exactly the right thing to do in that situation - took Curry into the post and got the easy bucket. Brooklyn cannot deny those kind of opportunities to the Celtics for whole games.